Open 585: Jungle Republic (ended)

[Lalendra]

Vote Lalendra

she keeps killing me in games for no good reason

Um, I had a good reason when I was scum and you were town. BOOM, ROASTED.

[Lalendra]

wait hold on

Vote Lalendra

she keeps killing me in games for no good reason

Um, I had a good reason when I was scum and you were town. BOOM, ROASTED.

Are you Gimme?

Yep, sorry. Should have introduced myself.

[Lalendra]

@Prawneater - No thoughts on anything yet?

@Ginko - Is your vote serious, or RVS?

Also, if those you who came here from the above mentioned forum don't mind sharing, I'm curious how much experience you have playing the game?

I've got to wake up in about five hours, so I'll catch you guys again tomorrow.

This is only my third game.

Sorry I haven't posted much, yesterday was my 30th birthday and I spent much of it drunk in a casino, and today is football playoffs. I'll be on more.

[Lalendra]

Acryon – Seemed to bandwagon early with Gliffie’s anti-hydra vote on Ginko, but that could just be a reaction test (or an intense dislike of hydras). I honestly don't have much of a read on this one, even though he's posted quite a bit.

Aristophanes – Thank you for birthday wishes! Typical Ari, from what I’ve seen; some general silliness, but that's not out of alignment with his meta, from what I've seen. I don't know if I'm 100% convinced he's scum, and at any rate I'm not quite convinced enough to fling a vote there. I'd hate to see a D1 no-lynch, but I'd hate a mislynch too.

Farside – Need to see more before I get a good read, but the one post seemed towny.

Ginko – I’m with Gliffie, Hydras suck. Playing very aggressively, and I'm getting a townread from interactions so far. Solid reasoning and nothing sounds like circular logic or half-assed excuses.

Gliffie – dead

Lyserg-Zeroz – Leaning scum. He was okay with putting Ari close to a lynch, saying in uncertain/vague terms that he didn’t like Ari’s response on an earlier post; reads being against stacking votes early in D1 as anti-town, when in reality I think it’s the opposite. Not wanting a hasty D1 vote seems more town than scum, to me. Thank you for birthday wishes

Metalcyanide – Obviously scum, etc. In all seriousness, post 133 gave me a town vibe; his denials of accusations from earlier (i.e. waiting so long to post) seem genuine. He also wasn’t trying to overcompensate or protest too much with the denials, but was just stating the facts; this also leads me to a town read, as scum might try too hard or come up with weird reasoning to be duplicitous. At the same time, as West pointed out, posting reads isn’t necessarily going to get you lynched, and not having reads isn’t the same as being careful. You could have asked for info/clarification, etc. Also try harder to explain things instead of saying “sorry, hard to explain”. That doesn’t give us much to go off of.

Orcinus – Random Metalcyanide vote early in D1 struck me as odd. There was no reasoning behind it, yet it didn’t strike me as a joke vote. Then another random vote, for Acryon, followed by a flip to Ginko – again, with no reason. Then a flip back to Ari, STILL with no reasoning. Basically a serial wagoner. Also, asking for background on people who know each other IRL seemed odd to me, knowing everyone’s meta isn’t really that helpful when people can just lie about other people’s meta and their history in games together. Not sure what you were hoping for with that. Lots of vagueness (“You’ll know when they start clicking”, “there’s a subtle message there that didn’t get across”), which comes off as threatening, but only fake-threatening. Like trying to make people think that his scumreads are stronger than they really are. Maybe werewolf since he seems to be trying to play both sides against the middle. Also why is Metalcyanide an easy lynch if no one is voting for him?

Prawneater – Really? #155? Lyserg is the only one you have a read on when West, Ari, Cheet, and Orcinus have talked just as much? I’d say scum but that post was so obviously scummy that it couldn’t be true, it’s hiding in plain sight if it is.

VysePresident – Hasn’t said a lot, but wagoned on Lyserg’s Ari vote; seems like possible Vyse/Lyserg scum team. Lyserg’s somewhat hostile tone in post #44 seems like scum distancing.

West9 – Forgot to mention me when giving the backstory on everyone from D2. Obviously scum. (The fact that I changed my name is irrelevant.) Ari/Metal scumteam was, for some reason, a very striking thought; I don’t know why but I never would have thought of that.

My strongest scumread right now is Orcinus, so I'm going to go with that even though he's nowhere near a lynch, and will change my mind if I'm convinced Ari is scum.

[Lalendra]

OK I'm obviously too stupid to vote for anyone because no matter what I did I couldn't get the code to work. I have it all worked out now.

VOTE: Vote: Orcinus

[Lalendra]

Ari - random Metal vote with no reasoning (unless it was earlier and I missed it), conveniently after West pointed out the likelihood of an Ari/Metal scumteam? If you're scum, that seems like a less than well thought out attempt at scum-distancing, yet I can't ignore it, particularly in conjunction with West's points, which ring true for me now that I see it all in one place.

VOTE: Aristophanes

[Lalendra]

Lal reads scummy to me. Can't put a finger more then the reads she/ he Gave.
I can't believe the mislynch comment from the ari read that is based on meta, then criticizing orc for asking about history from others, which given the convo going on would be a natural question to ask.
I sort of felt dirty reading the post because I half wondered about bias towards friends.

I don't think that me taking Ari's meta into account, and also scrutinizing Orcinus for asking about everyone else's meta, are irreconcilable/scummy. Using meta is fine, but I didn't see the usefulness in asking about the meta of others - I wouldn't believe anything anyone said.

What about my reads stuck you as scummy, aside from that one point? Also, when you say bias towards friends, to whom are you referring, and where do you see the bias?

[Lalendra]

A couple things strike me as off here.

Acryon – Seemed to bandwagon early with Gliffie’s anti-hydra vote on Ginko, but that could just be a reaction test (or an intense dislike of hydras). I honestly don't have much of a read on this one, even though he's posted quite a bit.

As you yourself stated, I have posted quite a bit, but the one thing you decide to look at and comment on is a joke post on the first page?

Honestly, I was going back and forth just reading through everyone’s posts and taking notes. I wasn’t sure if the hydra vote was a joke vote or not, but either way, it wasn’t enough to really influence my read on you.

Aristophanes – Thank you for birthday wishes! Typical Ari, from what I’ve seen; some general silliness, but that's not out of alignment with his meta, from what I've seen. I don't know if I'm 100% convinced he's scum, and at any rate I'm not quite convinced enough to fling a vote there. I'd hate to see a D1 no-lynch, but I'd hate a mislynch too.

You went from this to voting him just because of a naked vote? Do you think naked votes are alignment-indicative?

I said I wasn’t 100% convinced, but I was leaning scum. The first sentence indicates that his actions in this game were aligned with his meta, and that the two combined didn’t really give me a bad vide yet. The second sentence, however, is basically me saying that I wasn’t completely convinced he was scum, but moreover expresses my interest in avoiding a mislynch. I didn’t want to vote on him at that time, because I wanted to see how things progressed. West’s summary was clear-cut, and sort of tied together points in Ari’s argument which I had honestly been struggling to see up until that point. That began to sway me, and then when I saw a naked vote on Metal in response to Metal’s scummy read of him, that pretty much sealed it for me. Naked votes strike me as something someone does when they pretty much know that they’ve been caught, and don’t have much left to counter with.

Lyserg-Zeroz – Leaning scum. He was okay with putting Ari close to a lynch, saying in uncertain/vague terms that he didn’t like Ari’s response on an earlier post; reads being against stacking votes early in D1 as anti-town, when in reality I think it’s the opposite. Not wanting a hasty D1 vote seems more town than scum, to me. Thank you for birthday wishes

You criticize Lyserg here for putting Ari close to a lynch, and then you post several posts later with a vote putting Ari to L-1.

His vote was a lot earlier than mine (though my read post was posted not too long before my scumvote on Ari, the posts I was basing the reads on were much earlier in the game, and the fact that he was putting Ari close to lynch on page 2, or whatever it was, is quite different than me doing it on page 7 when things have changed quite a bit.

My strongest scumread right now is Orcinus, so I'm going to go with that even though he's nowhere near a lynch, and will change my mind if I'm convinced Ari is scum.

I just find it odd that simply a naked vote from Ari would be enough to convince you the slot is scum. And not only that, but convince you enough to put him to L-1, something you literally

just

scrutinized Lyserg for, and Lyserg's vote was only the 3rd on Ari, whereas your's is the sixth!

Like I said, the naked vote gave me a bad vibe and was enough to convince me to vote, but it was also the reasoning put forth by many others regarding his scumminess. If it seems like I put too much stock in the opinions of others, I probably do, because I am fairly new to the game and there are a lot of actions and reactions I haven’t seen yet.

Lal reads scummy to me. Can't put a finger more then the reads she/ he Gave.
I can't believe the mislynch comment from the ari read that is based on meta, then criticizing orc for asking about history from others, which given the convo going on would be a natural question to ask.
I sort of felt dirty reading the post because I half wondered about bias towards friends.

I don't think that me taking Ari's meta into account, and also scrutinizing Orcinus for asking about everyone else's meta, are irreconcilable/scummy. Using meta is fine, but I didn't see the usefulness in asking about the meta of others - I wouldn't believe anything anyone said.

What about my reads stuck you as scummy, aside from that one point? Also, when you say bias towards friends, to whom are you referring, and where do you see the bias?

Ari.
You mention meta and that's it.
One vote and insta scum read is a real stretch reading your recap of him.

I can see that. As I said, when I wrote that I didn’t have much of a read on him, and that fact didn’t change much in the rest of the posts I read since writing that. I also wasn’t outright wagoning, but was intrigued by the information and opinions of other, more experienced players who I think had decent points.

Lalendra's read of me misunderstands my initial vote on Ari, it was not about what Ari said being inherently anti-town, it was about it feeling weird and somewhat out of character for me when coming from Ari. Btw,

@Lalendra

:

everyone’s meta isn’t really that helpful when people can just lie about other people’s meta and their history in games together

I mean, unless everyone is somehow on the same scumteam, if one of us had lied, there would've been a good chance others would've called the liar out, so the risk of lying seems like a dumb one to take; this seems like a stretch.

Maybe werewolf since he seems to be trying to play both sides against the middle

I'm dumb, so this just seems weird and I don get it, can you walk me through why you are suspecting him of specifically being a werewolf?

I’m not familiar with the three-team setup (yes I know I’m beating a horse that had been bludgeoned to death before I even got to it, but this was my reasoning), so it seemed to me that it would make sense for Werewolf to try and pit town and mafia against each other. Town wants to kill werewolf and mafia, mafia wants themselves to be the majority, werewolf wants to have mostly werewolves but also at least one townie, and presumably a mafia or townie in the second slot. They would want to take out the Seer ASAP (I have no idea who might be fulfilling that role as of yet) and then it’s really to their benefit if town and mafia sit back and pick each other off. That’s just how I see it, I’m aware that could be grossly flawed reasoning. As you pointed out earlier in your post, his play his too obvious for scum/scum-distancing, but still there’s no reason for that naked vote in lieu of actual discussion. It’s almost as if he’s like “TEEHEE THIS IS SO OBVIOUS NO ONE WILL THINK IT’S REAL”, I am just befuddled by that whole thing. I really wish he would weigh in on my read of him, everyone's reaction to my read on him, and basically the nature and purpose of the naked vote.

Also, I totally forgot about Ginko’s NYE question, I REALLY WANT TO KNOW WHERE THAT WAS GOING

[Lalendra]

Also, @Lyserg's point about lying about meta: it's not necessarily true that they would have been called out. People could have taken Cheetory's approach of thinking that it might be a reaction test, and waiting to see how it played out before jumping in and potentially derailing it. I'm not sure how a move like that would really help, but I could see it happening - maybe someone would reveal something about their own meta, or the meta of another player, which they would unintentionally contradict later, having forgotten they said it, and thereby hang themselves. idfk.

[Lalendra]

Lal, why no actual read on me? Seems really odd.
Acryon touched on some other things that were weird.

I didn't realize I didn't give a clear read on you...my bad. Solid town read so far, everything seems straightforward, there is no backpedaling yet that I can see, and posts are clear and make solid points as opposed to talking in circles and giving the "I know more than I'm letting on, teehee!" vibe.

Ari's Metal vote reads to me as a "well I'm scum and I'm gonna fuck with you because I know I'm going to die."

^^THIS. So much this. That's why the naked vote bugged me.

Another thing, Lal: why do you feel like you need to express your interest in avoiding a mislynch?

Basically just to explain my hesitation in voting.

[Lalendra]

at work and will read and make a more in depth post later. But @ari, as you pointed out, that was my first game EVER. As Johnny is so fond of saying, bad play is not the same as scummy play in all situations. I'd like to think I learned art last something and wouldn't be so blatant about supporting west if we were scum buddies.

[Lalendra]

At least, not art last. Fking phone

[Lalendra]

OHEY! I'm actually here now and have a chance to do that thing I said I would do.
I passed out really early Monday and was out Tuesday, so I apologize. I wanted to do something though, so I voted Metal to see what would happen.

Of the responses, I like Lalendra's the least. I actually had a kind of scum inkling on Metal, but this is much better than I expected.
VOTE: Lalendra
She switched so quickly to a scum read on me and her best argument thus far was "West made a good point, I just didn't see it before" which just sounds off to me. I feel like she was just waiting for a good moment to pounce, and I gave it to her.

I still don't get the reasoning for thinking [insert name here because I don't feel like checking right now] was a Warewolf specifically. Seems like badly veiled "third party hunting" or whatever you wanna call it to me.

As a side note, if she is scum I could totally see it being herself and either West or Metal. I was in a game with her not too long ago (her first game on the forums) and we were both scum. She left a really big trail leading back to her scummates (Gliffie could've vouched for this, but is gone now) (Hi Young!!) in agreeing with them/us, especially when we said vague things, like this whole West business. As for Metal, that hard-defense (at least, that's how I read it) when I voted him just seems so overboard, as if she panicked and is just trying to get rid of me. Couple that with West possibly distancing himself from Metal as scum by grouping Metal and myself, I could totally see this being the three Mafia Goons being really messy on D1.

I was just ninja'd by West and Lalendra and would like to note that she also avoided reads on her fellow scummates, but when she was pushed into it, gave weak-to-strong townreads iirc in that game I just mentioned. Just fyi all.

Can you do a read post? You focus on me, metal and west here, I'm curious to know what you think of everyone else.

[Lalendra]

@Lalendra: I'm afraid I'll get too into a sort of theory-talk in here, but:

I’m not familiar with the three-team setup (yes I know I’m beating a horse that had been bludgeoned to death before I even got to it, but this was my reasoning), so it seemed to me that it would make sense for Werewolf to try and pit town and mafia against each other. Town wants to kill werewolf and mafia, mafia wants themselves to be the majority, werewolf wants to have mostly werewolves but also at least one townie, and presumably a mafia or townie in the second slot. They would want to take out the Seer ASAP (I have no idea who might be fulfilling that role as of yet) and then it’s really to their benefit if town and mafia sit back and pick each other off. That’s just how I see it, I’m aware that could be grossly flawed reasoning. As you pointed out earlier in your post, his play his too obvious for scum/scum-distancing, but still there’s no reason for that naked vote in lieu of actual discussion. It’s almost as if he’s like “TEEHEE THIS IS SO OBVIOUS NO ONE WILL THINK IT’S REAL”, I am just befuddled by that whole thing. I really wish he would weigh in on my read of him, everyone's reaction to my read on him, and basically the nature and purpose of the naked vote.

I mean, Werewolves could also want to just be the majority too (except in that case it's "full majority"), and imo mafia could also want to pit werewolves and town against each other if only to avoid being a target themselves (although this requires first knowing who is in what side, which is also a problem).
.

Completely true. Like I said, it was my gut response; I have never played a game like this so I don't know what the prevailing pay styles are for each group.

[Lalendra]

A couple things strike me as off here.

Acryon – Seemed to bandwagon early with Gliffie’s anti-hydra vote on Ginko, but that could just be a reaction test (or an intense dislike of hydras). I honestly don't have much of a read on this one, even though he's posted quite a bit.

As you yourself stated, I have posted quite a bit, but the one thing you decide to look at and comment on is a joke post on the first page?

Honestly, I was going back and forth just reading through everyone’s posts and taking notes. I wasn’t sure if the hydra vote was a joke vote or not, but either way, it wasn’t enough to really influence my read on you.

That still seems like an odd thing to comment on, when there are other things I've done that are much more worthy of comments. It just seems like textbook faux-commentary.

Aristophanes – Thank you for birthday wishes! Typical Ari, from what I’ve seen; some general silliness, but that's not out of alignment with his meta, from what I've seen. I don't know if I'm 100% convinced he's scum, and at any rate I'm not quite convinced enough to fling a vote there. I'd hate to see a D1 no-lynch, but I'd hate a mislynch too.

You went from this to voting him just because of a naked vote? Do you think naked votes are alignment-indicative?

Naked votes strike me as something someone does when they pretty much know that they’ve been caught, and don’t have much left to counter with.

Really? Do you have examples in games to back this up? I don't think this is the case at all, and it also seems like extreme wishful thinking to believe that we caught scum so hard this early that they are just giving up.

Lyserg-Zeroz – Leaning scum. He was okay with putting Ari close to a lynch, saying in uncertain/vague terms that he didn’t like Ari’s response on an earlier post; reads being against stacking votes early in D1 as anti-town, when in reality I think it’s the opposite. Not wanting a hasty D1 vote seems more town than scum, to me. Thank you for birthday wishes

You criticize Lyserg here for putting Ari close to a lynch, and then you post several posts later with a vote putting Ari to L-1.

His vote was a lot earlier than mine (though my read post was posted not too long before my scumvote on Ari, the posts I was basing the reads on were much earlier in the game, and the fact that he was putting Ari close to lynch on page 2, or whatever it was, is quite different than me doing it on page 7 when things have changed quite a bit.

Well, again, putting someone to L-4 isn't exactly putting them "close to lynch."

The vote just doesn't seem natural to me, and it doesn't seem to line up with your posting. I think you're discounting the complexity of the game.

Rarely is scum caught with extreme confidence, especially this early "We got em boys!" just doesn't really happen that often in my experience. Putting too much confidence in it leading up to the lynch just causes confirmation bias to drive it the rest of the way, which is terrible for town.

No I don't have any examples, other than my own stupid plots when I knew I was caught as scum, and just trying to fuck with people was the only recourse left. Also L-4 isn't super close to lynch, but it is closer than I'd like to be only one day into a two week day, since I have a pretty cautious play style.

[Lalendra]

No I don't have any examples, other than my own stupid plots when I knew I was caught as scum, and just trying to fuck with people was the only recourse left. Also L-4 isn't super close to lynch, but it is closer than I'd like to be only one day into a two week day, since I have a pretty cautious play style.

You have a pretty cautious play-style, yet you put Ari to L-1 with over a week left? I think there is

far

more gravity in the L-1 with over a week left than the L-4 with almost 2 weeks. Plus, we were still mostly in RVS, so the likelihood of the other 2 votes being sticky was very low.

You have a point. At that point I was pretty well convinced and willing to stake my vote on it. But the fact that the other votes were not likely to stick is something I overlooked.

[Lalendra]

I'd really like to hear more from Young, Vyse and prawn.

[Lalendra]

Ari: I think your reason, testing waters comment is crap.
I agree that lal is scummy.

Can you elaborate?

[Lalendra]

Sure, I'll post a revised read list later on today.

[Lalendra]

What was vague? Why doesn't meta discussion make sense? I need more to go on if I'm going to defend myself (though I've defended the ari vote into the ground and my mind still hasn't changed, more on that later).

[Lalendra]

honestly you saying I'm scum just based on my ari vote, with almost no reasoning to back it up, makes me feel a possible ari/farside scumteam. Or possibly werewolves, since as it was pointed out earlier there's only two of those.

[Lalendra]

Sorry what's omgus?

[Lalendra]

Prawneater – Really? #155? Lyserg is the only one you have a read on when West, Ari, Cheet, and Orcinus have talked just as much? I’d say scum but that post was so obviously scummy that it couldn’t be true, it’s hiding in plain sight if it is.

VysePresident – Hasn’t said a lot, but wagoned on Lyserg’s Ari vote; seems like possible Vyse/Lyserg scum team. Lyserg’s somewhat hostile tone in post #44 seems like scum distancing.

West9 – Forgot to mention me when giving the backstory on everyone from D2. Obviously scum. (The fact that I changed my name is irrelevant.) Ari/Metal scumteam was, for some reason, a very striking thought; I don’t know why but I never would have thought of that.

My strongest scumread right now is Orcinus, so I'm going to go with that even though he's nowhere near a lynch, and will change my mind if I'm convinced Ari is scum.

Lal's only played one game on our site. The "always killing me" was exaggeration from Metal, who knows her irl.

Two I thought? Doesn’t matter, still a noob.

3) i have no clue what a lot of peopel here are saying. Lal's posts don't make sense to me and I hope that I don't have to explain why.

Humor me.

Also, asking for background on people who know each other IRL seemed odd to me, knowing everyone’s meta isn’t really that helpful when people can just lie about other people’s meta and their history in games together.

you are suggesting to me that when i post "hey tell me about your meta" to 8-odd people that they will all lie to me? wouldn't we just lynch the people who are lying? what?

No, not all. Some. One, perhaps. Which would make it, in my book, a less-than-helpful trick. I don’t trust any answers I get from direct lines of questioning, it’s more about how the question is answered than about the answer itself; in this way, a question like this could be helpful, I suppose. It’s just not something I would have done, I saw no point in it. I said it seemed odd, not scummy – my scumlean on you was due to other factors which were outlined in my original post.

Yo, Lalendra: After more interactions with people since your last read-list, can you give me an update on your previous scumleans and on how their/our lynches compare to an Ari lynch for you?

Here goes.
Acryon – gains town points for wanting to avoid a quickhammer, and his posts have a general, overall towny feel to them, particularly his responses to my posts. Playing cautiously, does a lot of analysis and asking other people what they think, posing questions, etc. Hasn’t put out a whole lot of his own opinions yet. Taking a sort of Sophocles approach.
Ari – as Acryon pointed out in 181, there is something off about his play in this game. The “I posted a vote on metal just to see what would happen because I didn’t have time for a real post” could be legit, but doesn’t ring true. When he finally came back to the game after being away for a bit, he tunneled in on me, West and Metal, without really saying anything about anyone else until later. That could have just been because he was pressed for time. The stuff West said wasn’t particularly vague, so his point about me leaving a scumtrail also didn’t ring true. Seems like he’s just picking out parts of my meta that will implicate me in this, to plant the seed of doubt with everyone, without creating any real solid tie-ins. Also this:

As for the New Years thing, yeah, I remembered that conversation and was somewhat wary of quicklynching when I came into D1. I wanted to test the waters with this crowd though regardless.

It was a fun time! I have no clue if there was something significant I was supposed to remember though...

Reconcile these two statements, if you can.
Lyserg – Starting to lean more town. His explanation of his scumhunting technique in post 204 was pretty well-thought-out, and therefore struck me as genuine. The rest of what he says is mostly questions directed at other people, so that’s all I really have atm.
Orcinus – Hasn’t posted much, but never answered my question about why he considers Metal an easy lynch. I understand he’s prod-dodging but I’m still not a huge fan of the bare-bones posts and snarky comments, need more meat here to really make an assessment. Would also like to hear an explanation of his “super-fency” assessment of me.
Prawneater – Hasn’t said jack shit so my scumlean hasn’t changed.
Vyse – Waiting to hear what he has to say later.
People need to talk more T-T

[Lalendra]

Ignore everything before the West quote, I'm an idiot.

[Lalendra]

Lal's only played one game on our site. The "always killing me" was exaggeration from Metal, who knows her irl.

She killed me in two games. Once as a mafia bomb once as the hammer vote. Sorry it was a bit of an exaggeration, she is still new to mafia.

The only two games I've played, that's a pretty good record jussayin...

[Lalendra]

(my internet connection sucks, sorry about that double post)
Screw you Ari, I'm pretty sure this is actually you being honest (alingment non-indicative anyways I'd say) but fuck that AtE >.<

Hey, you were the one who wanted to be nitpicky!

Continuing: On the other hand, look at her response to me on 187 about the werewolf thing, that strikes me as a townslip (maybe in this case it's more of a non-werewolf slip, but I was thinking that a mafia would know it'd be easy to check for the wincon on the public role pms or something) because what she's saying was like assuming the werewolf had no other wincon besides the "at least one protown role" one. It didn't pass the second check I tried to apply when I asked more about that (I kinda expected her to be like "Oh, my bad, misunderstood their wincon" or something) but it still caught my eye; am I misreading what she meant or making too much out of that? (because besides that townslippy feeling of it, the "werewolf" thing is part of what makes me feel like some of her points are a stretch). @Other_people should also tell me if I'm being dumb about this.

I don't quite get what you're saying here, Lys.
She had the wincons right in this post, no? She mentioned a majority and the "at least one protown role" thing in that as a werewolf wincon.
In that post specifically, I thought it was weird that she specifically said something about still having "no clue who the seer is yet". This seemed like a scum slippy-wording imo. I had forgotten about that until I read that post again. What are your thoughts on that? And like I say, please elaborate on your thoughts on this being townslippy.

Not sure how it would be a scum slip, no one had mentioned anything related to the seer yet and the role is right in the mods post at the beginning.

[Lalendra]

Avatar. BOOM.



V/LA til Monday, will post if I have time.

[Lalendra]

Your tone wasn't even clearly serious there, so it comes across as feeling especially sleezy to me. It seems to me like he only talked about it later because you set him up to do so.
^Everyone should make an effort to read this part of the game because I'm pretty sure West is setting Ari up here.

I hadn’t really noticed this disparity in West’s argument before, thank you for pointing it out. I’m not sure if it was West setting Ari up, or Ari stumbling/backpedaling – it still reads more to me as the latter, but it’s possible that your interpretation is spot-on.

He becomes very focused on asking Lalendra questions and making points as to why she's scummy, whereas he was kind of more disinterested in pushing for Aristophanes or asking him questions. I feel like there's a very distinct difference in playstyle being taken here and it doesn't even make much sense from a perspective of "I think that Aristophanes is less scummy than Lalendra", because his reasoning when he unvotes is that he wants to avoid a quickhammer.

I am still on the fence about Acryon. His defensiveness of Ari seemed inherently scummy, due to my susipicions of Ari; however, his playstyle seems overall towny. He asks probing questions, doesn’t really seem like he’s married to any scumreads in particular, and is willing to take all factors into consideration. He seemed fairly convinced I was scum after my Ari vote, for example, but then in 238 and 241, he was willing to consider that my comments might be more newbish than scummy. So, despite the fact that he has a pretty solid scumread on me, I am still inclined to believe that he is town.

Since I also found something of the same vibe from a townMetal game (think I linked the game on my previous post) I'm of the opinion that it's not an alignment indicative thing.

I agree, I think this is just his playstyle regardless. He is paranoid as hell in mafia, largely because he frequently says things which are misinterpreted and then he tends to confuse the issue more when he tries to clarify, thereby drawing more suspicion. I tend to have a hard time dissecting his game, since we have only played two games together, and in the first I knew he was town and in the second I was sure he was scum and he wasn’t; however, I still get a town-vibe from him this time.

Random thought: I dont think has Ari talked about why he choose Metal as his reaction test vote. That'd be cool.

Yes it would.

Metal's read of Ari's towngame is weird.

Weird in what way?

Lal post here looks to be just attacking those without taking things said prior
Not sure if that is typical. Emotion is emotion but it was a quick reaction based on other comments I made prior.

Not really emotion, just something that I wanted to get out there in the moment while it was fresh in my head. It was sort of an “ah ha!” moment.

I absolutely hate this post. She is not voting for her strongest scum read.
The reason being was in her first post and nothing has changed. I still don't see why what Orc did was scummy and she has yet to really explain it well at all.

That was me being an idiot and forgetting to remove the top half of the earlier post, which I had copied and was using for reference as Lyserg had asked me to update my scum reads from that post. The first four paragraphs are crap. (Ninja’d by Lyserg – thank you for explaining my stupidity.)

Re: Ginko, West9, VysePresident, farside22 - their recent posts feel very town. Maybe I'm too easily swayed by textwalls though.

What about them feels town? Why are textwalls alignment-indicative?

Here begins my analysis of Ari, in response to Lyserg's question. Was going to post as a spoiler but apparently I can't figure out how.

@Lalendra: You initially mentioned you thought Ari was being typical Ari and that general silliness was mostly just his meta. Later you said West's case helped in swaying you. Besides the Metal-vote: Do you just generally agree with West? Can you walk me through the evolution of your read (like, where did "typical silly Ari" go, for example)?

In the beginning, I felt like it was typical silly Ari. At post 38, his “in theory we could both be evil” comment did seem off to me. I don’t know why that would be the defense you’d want to use in this situation, it doesn’t seem like an exceptionally good one. Basically saying “He’s convinced I’m scum, and I’m not going to debate that because it’s true, but he could also be a different kind of scum!” Post 53 was flippant, in typical Ari fashion, but also played off his earlier slips as him playing around too much. This is possible, and not too out of character, but a weak defense. In 54 he chides Orci for voting for him with no explanation, then the naked metal vote comes out of nowhere. In 56 he doesn’t explain why a lack of conversation is anti-town, and he hadn’t really posted anything serious or heavy except for 53, so sort of the pot calling the kettle black there.

Also, how can I prove I'm town without a lynch.

That, right there, bugs me a lot. Lynching someone does not prove you are town, it proves that you successfully bandwagoned, OR got people to follow your line of reasoning (true or deceptive) OR that you got lucky OR that you are town. “See, I said he was scum and he got lynched and he’s scum therefore I am town!” can certainly be true, but is not necessarily true, and is also far from the only way to “prove” that you are town. It just seems like a weird line to draw in the sand this early in the game. He also calls out Orci for “pushing a sort of ‘I’m right, so talk away, but I know I’m right anyway’ mentality in his wordings, and having somewhat loaded questions,” as if this is inherently scummy behavior; to me, it’s not alignment-indicative, and Ari is doing the same.

Other notes: I just remembered that I have a thing on my internet that automatically translates "figuratively" to "figuratively". So if I sound like a dummy, it may be because I'm misreading a post. Sorry about that!

I must be an idiot because I STILL can’t figure out wtf this means.

I wanted to do something though, so I voted Metal to see what would happen.

Literally just picked Metal out of a hat? Why not Orci, who was his top scumread up until that point, or West, with whom he had some back-and-forth and at least a little suspicion?

She switched so quickly to a scum read on me and her best argument thus far was "West made a good point, I just didn't see it before" which just sounds off to me. I feel like she was just waiting for a good moment to pounce, and I gave it to her.

Aristophanes – Thank you for birthday wishes! Typical Ari, from what I’ve seen; some general silliness, but that's not out of alignment with his meta, from what I've seen. I don't know if I'm 100% convinced he's scum, and at any rate I'm not quite convinced enough to fling a vote there. I'd hate to see a D1 no-lynch, but I'd hate a mislynch too.

This is definitely not me saying that I think you’re town. “Not 100% convinced he’s scum” is not exactly a hands-down townread.

Ari - random Metal vote with no reasoning (unless it was earlier and I missed it), conveniently after West pointed out the likelihood of an Ari/Metal scumteam? If you're scum, that seems like a less than well thought out attempt at scum-distancing, yet I can't ignore it, particularly in conjunction with West's points, which ring true for me now that I see it all in one place.

VOTE: Aristophanes

Ari is focusing on the idea that I flipped town-to-scum, as a result of one action on his part; he ignores the fact that I hadn’t given him a townread to begin with, and that I had specific reasons to be suspicious of his naked vote, particularly due to the fact that it was immediately preceded by West surmising that Metal was Ari’s scummate.

[Lalendra]

Lal's read list is completely different wording then her first read list and has quotes she never used before.
Not sure what happened there.

I was just responding to a request I received to provide an updated read list on the people I thought were scum in my first post. Explain how my views had changed as a result of the goings-on between my first post and this one.

[Lalendra]

@West - I admitted he has a point, didn't say it changed my opinion about ari, which is why my vote is still there. I said that clearly in my post. Also the reason my reasoning for the Ari vote contains little of your argument is because I was given so much crap for agreeing with you and disliking the naked vote that I felt I should put together more solid points instead of going "yeah, what west said."

[Lalendra]

Dodging a prod...Will post more in depth later.

[Lalendra]

(someone mentioned not knowing how to spoiler here, that's with the "spoiler=" button)

I tried that and it turned my text weird colors and didn't spoiler it out. I tried like three different ways. </3

I'm willing to vote for Lalendra to avoid no lynch, but I'd rather lynch someone I'm actually scumreading.

:’(

In post 370, Ginko wrote:
Do you think that everyone thinks that naked votes are null? Also, she doesn't just say it's the naked vote, as she also points to finding West's points more convincing after reading them again.

No, which is why I noted it as such that some would say it's scummy, but even then it still just isn't the tipping point; I don't think anyone things it's scummy enough to be that. To me, it felt more like she saw farside's post saying she felt Lal was scummy, and this caused Lal to quickly move forward with the Ari wagon rather than screw around with another direction. Which would also explain the contradiction in her play here vs what she chastised Lyserg for.

I voted for Ari in vote 171 and didn’t address farside’s points until 172. Those were two separate posts because I was on my phone, catching up on a lot and posting as I read, not easy to do multiquotes and such that way. Chronologically my vote for Ari came before I even read farside's post.

In post 340, Lalendra wrote:
@West - I admitted he has a point, didn't say it changed my opinion about ari, which is why my vote is still there. I said that clearly in my post. Also the reason my reasoning for the Ari vote contains little of your argument is because I was given so much crap for agreeing with you and disliking the naked vote that I felt I should put together more solid points instead of going "yeah, what west said."

I was talking about your read on ME, not on Ari. Also, it seems that you agree that your initial point of "yeah, what west said" was not strong.

If I had responded to a request for more information by just reiterating the fact that I agreed with what you said, no, it wouldn’t have been strong. That’s why I included detailed information about my thought process leading up to that point, to illustrate that I had doubts about Ari stemming from evidence other than just your post.

In post 315, prawneater wrote:
Re: Ginko, West9, VysePresident, farside22 - their recent posts feel very town. Maybe I'm too easily swayed by textwalls though.
...
Here's my list from towniest to scummiest:

farside22
lyserg
west9
vyse
ginko
lalendra
aristophanes
orcinus
acryon
metalcyanide

I dunno where to put YYR yet.

There's a couple of bad things here. How did Young go from "I don't know" to "let's lynch him?" How come you don't mention metal in the list of people you'd be fine lynching? And though I'm not a fan of an abundance of nulls in a readslist, it seems like you have everyone divided up into very solid "scum" and "town" sets. I'm not sure if I'm explaining this point well, but it feels like you have a scum/town Venn Diagram that is just comprised of two completely separated circles.

Can you explain this more? I’m not seeing the “solid scum and town sets,” he lays out four people he thinks are town and then puts the rest on a sliding scale. None of his reads seem particularly strong, as his town reads are wishy-washy, and there isn’t really any info to back up the rest, so I’m not really seeing any “solid” sets at all, actually.

(^@Metal: When I asked "you two scumbuddies?" I actually meant Lal and you, but carry on with that discussion).

Sorry, what I wrote was the beggining and end of the discussion. I'm not buddies with anyone.

You’re not buddies with five other townies? SCUM

@Metal

, didn't you say Lalendra and Acryon were leaning town?
-Cheetory6

Changed my mind on Acryon with post 263
Yes I did say I was leaning town with Lal and I placed her in the wrong list. But honetly whatever on that one null read town read just basically means I'm not interested in her at the moment.

What do you mean when you say you placed me in the wrong list? Just a typo? Also I think there’s a significant difference between null read and town read.

[Lalendra]

Define town hammer plz? Also I was at L-2 I thought so how is prawn the hammer?

[Lalendra]

Thanks farside, didn't see the other vote. Oh well, I'm dead again D1, shocking.