Open 585: Jungle Republic (ended)

[Ginko]

I need to make sure there isn't some reasoning I'm missing on Ari wagon, but I'm not really feeling him being lynched right now based on what I've seen. I like that he was open about remembering talking about it/didn't try to imply that it was something he'd forgotten.

-Cheetory6

[West9]

About the readslist itself, that's a awffullll lot of nulls and leans.

ii) Literally just got out of a game of multiball mafia having played as scum.

You

can play pretty protown as scum and hence it's harder to scumhunt. The other scumteam in said game were both players I thought were town almost all game and most people townread me and my partner almost all game.

Is this just you being against giving people townreads? I'm very confused by this point.

Why did you even ask me this when you were just going to ignore my answer and say "well, Ari said he's joking, so that's that."

I was kind of hoping you'd say that this wasn't really all that important of reasoning to you.

This doesn't explain why you ignored it.

Like, it reads as pretty forced to me that you're going after Aristophanes for being derpy with RVS-stuff in such a blatant way when that strikes me really hard as being obviously explained by his playstyle. It feels like you're jumping on something easier than I expect you to.

Fuck that shit, RVS/joking period ended at post 41. Ari was continuing his "we could both be scum" argument at 62, while he was making the non-RVS argument of "Orci isn't doing anything."
And, of course, you're still ignoring that he straight out says "I was making a point that [West's] logic was flawed."
Regarding his meta, that's one of the points of this. scumAri trying to emphasize the possibility of a situation where he and I could be on separate teams but both be scum makes complete sense to me after the last D2 game.

@West

, what do you make of Ari's unvote on Metal?

Followed the pattern of "hey guys, anything scummy that i do is not scummy and is actually just an attempt to get conversation going." The point on Lalendra's opportunistic vote is noteworthy, though.

If you already knew it was likely commonplace, why go to the lengths of indirectly asking in such a weird way? Why not just directly ask? Like, walk me through your intentions there.
-Cheetory6

just plain asking is boring! Wouldn't have been much of a conversation if I had've done it that way, now would it have?

you know attempts at making conversation are 100% more effective and less scummy if you didn't keep talking about how you're just doing them to make conversation.

Ari

, what I really want to hear about is this scumread you've got on Metal.

[West9]

Fuck that shit, RVS/joking period ended at post 41.

Not that it matters to the overall point, but I meant to say 40 here.

[West9]

About the readslist itself, that's a awffullll lot of nulls and leans.

ii) Literally just got out of a game of multiball mafia having played as scum.

You

can play pretty protown as scum and hence it's harder to scumhunt. The other scumteam in said game were both players I thought were town almost all game and most people townread me and my partner almost all game.

Is this just you being against giving people townreads? I'm very confused by this point.

OH, also, question, is the "you" that I bolded supposed to be a general "you" or are you directing that comment at me?

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

@Ginko's latest post: Hm? I thought what he did made more sense with that in mind ... thou, it confuses me on another front in the sense of: why didn't he say something like "I was told this or that about quickwagons before coming in, so I wanted to make sure/see for myself" or whatever 0.0, I feel like that would've made understanding his initial posts easier (<-@Ari).
(Holy hell, my internet connection is being so sucky right now... it's late and this is gonna make me stay awake even longer T-T)

@Young: Basically, yeah, I don't feel really good about letting him avoid a question twice and I wanted to see what he'd do if I pushed that way. I also felt like he might've been the kind of person who'd just ignore or not want to deal with what he doesn't care for, which is preventing me from fully considering the question-avoiding as scummy and would've prevented me from asking a fourth time too (then more motivation to make this one the one he cares to talk to me about).

@Orcinus: I mean, we did engage a bit in conversation before, and you did mention not knowing and being interested in banter or whatever, so I don't see why not. Also considering Farside's answer to my townread question right now... maybe the angle I decided to take wasn't the right one: At some point my thought process turned into: "The fact that scum might try to comepletey blend in by scumhunting in a genuine way is bothering me, if I let people just do their thing and focus my interactions with them on just how they are scumhunting I might never see their scumminess... maybe I should try asking them stuff not directly related to the path of scumhunting they'd otherwise take"...

@Acryon: I remember you having a townread/feel/whatever about Orci and that you've apparently played together before, also considering your interactions with Ginko at bottom of page 6: Do you make anything out of Orci not responding to my West question, how do you read that?

@Lalendra: I'm afraid I'll get too into a sort of theory-talk in here, but:

I’m not familiar with the three-team setup (yes I know I’m beating a horse that had been bludgeoned to death before I even got to it, but this was my reasoning), so it seemed to me that it would make sense for Werewolf to try and pit town and mafia against each other. Town wants to kill werewolf and mafia, mafia wants themselves to be the majority, werewolf wants to have mostly werewolves but also at least one townie, and presumably a mafia or townie in the second slot. They would want to take out the Seer ASAP (I have no idea who might be fulfilling that role as of yet) and then it’s really to their benefit if town and mafia sit back and pick each other off. That’s just how I see it, I’m aware that could be grossly flawed reasoning. As you pointed out earlier in your post, his play his too obvious for scum/scum-distancing, but still there’s no reason for that naked vote in lieu of actual discussion. It’s almost as if he’s like “TEEHEE THIS IS SO OBVIOUS NO ONE WILL THINK IT’S REAL”, I am just befuddled by that whole thing. I really wish he would weigh in on my read of him, everyone's reaction to my read on him, and basically the nature and purpose of the naked vote.

I mean, Werewolves could also want to just be the majority too (except in that case it's "full majority"), and imo mafia could also want to pit werewolves and town against each other if only to avoid being a target themselves (although this requires first knowing who is in what side, which is also a problem).

@Ginko: I was going to be paranoid about your read some more because of your two points on West calling you out on too many nulls, but whatever T-T... tell me: What's your current read of Lalendra, probably answer this after Lalendra responds to my stuff above^.

@Aristo:

Now to address all those other things I've been ignoring. Let's see, where to start... (Though pg 5 realistically, since I'm fairly certain that's where I left off on shit)

This is going back a bit, but

@Ocrinus

, I wasn't trying to say that I say you were reaction testing at the time. I meant to say that in retrospect I realized what you had done.

So you didn't realise they were reaction tests at first? What was the "someone had to bite, so I went for it", "it was a necessary vote"[/paraphrasing] stuff from before? Eh, from #115, those read to me like you were aware of the reaction testing stuff.

Holy crap I'm sleepy. West said new things... don't feel like I hace anything to add ask about that... nighty.

[Metalcyanide]

Sorry for my absence I'll fully catch up and respond to everything after work tomorrow (11pm ish EST)

[West9]

I know it's late and I'm tired but I had another question for Ari: what about my play is striking you as "messy?" That's something I haven't heard yet

[acryon]

A couple things strike me as off here.

Acryon – Seemed to bandwagon early with Gliffie’s anti-hydra vote on Ginko, but that could just be a reaction test (or an intense dislike of hydras). I honestly don't have much of a read on this one, even though he's posted quite a bit.

As you yourself stated, I have posted quite a bit, but the one thing you decide to look at and comment on is a joke post on the first page?

Honestly, I was going back and forth just reading through everyone’s posts and taking notes. I wasn’t sure if the hydra vote was a joke vote or not, but either way, it wasn’t enough to really influence my read on you.

That still seems like an odd thing to comment on, when there are other things I've done that are much more worthy of comments. It just seems like textbook faux-commentary.

Aristophanes – Thank you for birthday wishes! Typical Ari, from what I’ve seen; some general silliness, but that's not out of alignment with his meta, from what I've seen. I don't know if I'm 100% convinced he's scum, and at any rate I'm not quite convinced enough to fling a vote there. I'd hate to see a D1 no-lynch, but I'd hate a mislynch too.

You went from this to voting him just because of a naked vote? Do you think naked votes are alignment-indicative?

Naked votes strike me as something someone does when they pretty much know that they’ve been caught, and don’t have much left to counter with.

Really? Do you have examples in games to back this up? I don't think this is the case at all, and it also seems like extreme wishful thinking to believe that we caught scum so hard this early that they are just giving up.

Lyserg-Zeroz – Leaning scum. He was okay with putting Ari close to a lynch, saying in uncertain/vague terms that he didn’t like Ari’s response on an earlier post; reads being against stacking votes early in D1 as anti-town, when in reality I think it’s the opposite. Not wanting a hasty D1 vote seems more town than scum, to me. Thank you for birthday wishes

You criticize Lyserg here for putting Ari close to a lynch, and then you post several posts later with a vote putting Ari to L-1.

His vote was a lot earlier than mine (though my read post was posted not too long before my scumvote on Ari, the posts I was basing the reads on were much earlier in the game, and the fact that he was putting Ari close to lynch on page 2, or whatever it was, is quite different than me doing it on page 7 when things have changed quite a bit.

Well, again, putting someone to L-4 isn't exactly putting them "close to lynch."

The vote just doesn't seem natural to me, and it doesn't seem to line up with your posting. I think you're discounting the complexity of the game.

Rarely is scum caught with extreme confidence, especially this early "We got em boys!" just doesn't really happen that often in my experience. Putting too much confidence in it leading up to the lynch just causes confirmation bias to drive it the rest of the way, which is terrible for town.

[acryon]

@Acryon: I remember you having a townread/feel/whatever about Orci and that you've apparently played together before, also considering your interactions with Ginko at bottom of page 6: Do you make anything out of Orci not responding to my West question, how do you read that?

Eh. We have played together before, but we also have very different playstyles. In my experience, he definitely plays a "do and say whatever I want" style, so not responding to the question doesn't strike me as necessarily scummy from him. That being said, I've never played a game where he was scum, so it's possible that's part of the way he plays it. I do think he is town though.

[Lalendra]

at work and will read and make a more in depth post later. But @ari, as you pointed out, that was my first game EVER. As Johnny is so fond of saying, bad play is not the same as scummy play in all situations. I'd like to think I learned art last something and wouldn't be so blatant about supporting west if we were scum buddies.

[Lalendra]

At least, not art last. Fking phone

[Lalendra]

OHEY! I'm actually here now and have a chance to do that thing I said I would do.
I passed out really early Monday and was out Tuesday, so I apologize. I wanted to do something though, so I voted Metal to see what would happen.

Of the responses, I like Lalendra's the least. I actually had a kind of scum inkling on Metal, but this is much better than I expected.
VOTE: Lalendra
She switched so quickly to a scum read on me and her best argument thus far was "West made a good point, I just didn't see it before" which just sounds off to me. I feel like she was just waiting for a good moment to pounce, and I gave it to her.

I still don't get the reasoning for thinking [insert name here because I don't feel like checking right now] was a Warewolf specifically. Seems like badly veiled "third party hunting" or whatever you wanna call it to me.

As a side note, if she is scum I could totally see it being herself and either West or Metal. I was in a game with her not too long ago (her first game on the forums) and we were both scum. She left a really big trail leading back to her scummates (Gliffie could've vouched for this, but is gone now) (Hi Young!!) in agreeing with them/us, especially when we said vague things, like this whole West business. As for Metal, that hard-defense (at least, that's how I read it) when I voted him just seems so overboard, as if she panicked and is just trying to get rid of me. Couple that with West possibly distancing himself from Metal as scum by grouping Metal and myself, I could totally see this being the three Mafia Goons being really messy on D1.

I was just ninja'd by West and Lalendra and would like to note that she also avoided reads on her fellow scummates, but when she was pushed into it, gave weak-to-strong townreads iirc in that game I just mentioned. Just fyi all.

Can you do a read post? You focus on me, metal and west here, I'm curious to know what you think of everyone else.

[Lalendra]

@Lalendra: I'm afraid I'll get too into a sort of theory-talk in here, but:

I’m not familiar with the three-team setup (yes I know I’m beating a horse that had been bludgeoned to death before I even got to it, but this was my reasoning), so it seemed to me that it would make sense for Werewolf to try and pit town and mafia against each other. Town wants to kill werewolf and mafia, mafia wants themselves to be the majority, werewolf wants to have mostly werewolves but also at least one townie, and presumably a mafia or townie in the second slot. They would want to take out the Seer ASAP (I have no idea who might be fulfilling that role as of yet) and then it’s really to their benefit if town and mafia sit back and pick each other off. That’s just how I see it, I’m aware that could be grossly flawed reasoning. As you pointed out earlier in your post, his play his too obvious for scum/scum-distancing, but still there’s no reason for that naked vote in lieu of actual discussion. It’s almost as if he’s like “TEEHEE THIS IS SO OBVIOUS NO ONE WILL THINK IT’S REAL”, I am just befuddled by that whole thing. I really wish he would weigh in on my read of him, everyone's reaction to my read on him, and basically the nature and purpose of the naked vote.

I mean, Werewolves could also want to just be the majority too (except in that case it's "full majority"), and imo mafia could also want to pit werewolves and town against each other if only to avoid being a target themselves (although this requires first knowing who is in what side, which is also a problem).
.

Completely true. Like I said, it was my gut response; I have never played a game like this so I don't know what the prevailing pay styles are for each group.

[Lalendra]

A couple things strike me as off here.

Acryon – Seemed to bandwagon early with Gliffie’s anti-hydra vote on Ginko, but that could just be a reaction test (or an intense dislike of hydras). I honestly don't have much of a read on this one, even though he's posted quite a bit.

As you yourself stated, I have posted quite a bit, but the one thing you decide to look at and comment on is a joke post on the first page?

Honestly, I was going back and forth just reading through everyone’s posts and taking notes. I wasn’t sure if the hydra vote was a joke vote or not, but either way, it wasn’t enough to really influence my read on you.

That still seems like an odd thing to comment on, when there are other things I've done that are much more worthy of comments. It just seems like textbook faux-commentary.

Aristophanes – Thank you for birthday wishes! Typical Ari, from what I’ve seen; some general silliness, but that's not out of alignment with his meta, from what I've seen. I don't know if I'm 100% convinced he's scum, and at any rate I'm not quite convinced enough to fling a vote there. I'd hate to see a D1 no-lynch, but I'd hate a mislynch too.

You went from this to voting him just because of a naked vote? Do you think naked votes are alignment-indicative?

Naked votes strike me as something someone does when they pretty much know that they’ve been caught, and don’t have much left to counter with.

Really? Do you have examples in games to back this up? I don't think this is the case at all, and it also seems like extreme wishful thinking to believe that we caught scum so hard this early that they are just giving up.

Lyserg-Zeroz – Leaning scum. He was okay with putting Ari close to a lynch, saying in uncertain/vague terms that he didn’t like Ari’s response on an earlier post; reads being against stacking votes early in D1 as anti-town, when in reality I think it’s the opposite. Not wanting a hasty D1 vote seems more town than scum, to me. Thank you for birthday wishes

You criticize Lyserg here for putting Ari close to a lynch, and then you post several posts later with a vote putting Ari to L-1.

His vote was a lot earlier than mine (though my read post was posted not too long before my scumvote on Ari, the posts I was basing the reads on were much earlier in the game, and the fact that he was putting Ari close to lynch on page 2, or whatever it was, is quite different than me doing it on page 7 when things have changed quite a bit.

Well, again, putting someone to L-4 isn't exactly putting them "close to lynch."

The vote just doesn't seem natural to me, and it doesn't seem to line up with your posting. I think you're discounting the complexity of the game.

Rarely is scum caught with extreme confidence, especially this early "We got em boys!" just doesn't really happen that often in my experience. Putting too much confidence in it leading up to the lynch just causes confirmation bias to drive it the rest of the way, which is terrible for town.

No I don't have any examples, other than my own stupid plots when I knew I was caught as scum, and just trying to fuck with people was the only recourse left. Also L-4 isn't super close to lynch, but it is closer than I'd like to be only one day into a two week day, since I have a pretty cautious play style.

[acryon]

No I don't have any examples, other than my own stupid plots when I knew I was caught as scum, and just trying to fuck with people was the only recourse left. Also L-4 isn't super close to lynch, but it is closer than I'd like to be only one day into a two week day, since I have a pretty cautious play style.

You have a pretty cautious play-style, yet you put Ari to L-1 with over a week left? I think there is

far

more gravity in the L-1 with over a week left than the L-4 with almost 2 weeks. Plus, we were still mostly in RVS, so the likelihood of the other 2 votes being sticky was very low.

[orcinus_theoriginal]

so im interviewing a congressman today and have a bunch of other shit i gotta get through so this is not happening

1) i didn't give my read on west while i was posting about other stuff because i don't have a read on west, a read on a player who has not stood out to me would require a bunch of meta (and people here can attest to how meta-heavy i can get)
2) i'm not the biggest fan of ari, but something about the wagon felt off and i didn't want to leave him at l-1. i think it's the fact that everyone seemed to jump on him and other lines of interest (cheet, me, etc) didn't seem to be genuinely pursued.
3) i have no clue what a lot of peopel here are saying. Lal's posts don't make sense to me and I hope that I don't have to explain why.

Also, asking for background on people who know each other IRL seemed odd to me, knowing everyone’s meta isn’t really that helpful when people can just lie about other people’s meta and their history in games together.

you are suggesting to me that when i post "hey tell me about your meta" to 8-odd people that they will all lie to me? wouldn't we just lynch the people who are lying? what?

[orcinus_theoriginal]

i think lal is super fency though.

[orcinus_theoriginal]

I think I'm working on a bigger post and wanted to ask that first.

-Cheetory6

Whether you intended it or not, making a seemingly fluff-post when you have standing questions makes it look like you're dodging.

i am dodging.

[orcinus_theoriginal]

man offsite meta is so

weird

[acryon]

so im interviewing a congressman today and have a bunch of other shit i gotta get through so this is not happening

1) i didn't give my read on west while i was posting about other stuff because i don't have a read on west, a read on a player who has not stood out to me would require a bunch of meta (and people here can attest to how meta-heavy i can get)
2) i'm not the biggest fan of ari, but something about the wagon felt off and i didn't want to leave him at l-1. i think it's the fact that everyone seemed to jump on him and other lines of interest (cheet, me, etc) didn't seem to be genuinely pursued.
3) i have no clue what a lot of peopel here are saying. Lal's posts don't make sense to me and I hope that I don't have to explain why.

Also, asking for background on people who know each other IRL seemed odd to me, knowing everyone’s meta isn’t really that helpful when people can just lie about other people’s meta and their history in games together.

you are suggesting to me that when i post "hey tell me about your meta" to 8-odd people that they will all lie to me? wouldn't we just lynch the people who are lying? what?

Why no Lal vote here?

[Lalendra]

No I don't have any examples, other than my own stupid plots when I knew I was caught as scum, and just trying to fuck with people was the only recourse left. Also L-4 isn't super close to lynch, but it is closer than I'd like to be only one day into a two week day, since I have a pretty cautious play style.

You have a pretty cautious play-style, yet you put Ari to L-1 with over a week left? I think there is

far

more gravity in the L-1 with over a week left than the L-4 with almost 2 weeks. Plus, we were still mostly in RVS, so the likelihood of the other 2 votes being sticky was very low.

You have a point. At that point I was pretty well convinced and willing to stake my vote on it. But the fact that the other votes were not likely to stick is something I overlooked.

[acryon]

man offsite meta is so

weird

I just generally hate meta, because I know at least for myself, that even my townplay differs based on the game and the town I'm working with.

[orcinus_theoriginal]

sure. VOTE: lal

[acryon]

sure. VOTE: lal

I mean you don't need to feel pressured into voting there, but it was just something I expected following that post.

[Honey bee]

.