Micro 407: Jurassic Park Mafia - Game Over

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Post Post #675 (ISO) » Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:04 pm

Post by FinnLaw »

In post 632, Scripten wrote:I know I'm campaigning for a meta defense on someone whose sig says to "Stop relying on meta," but I've played with BBT as town and on a scum team with him. When he's town, his reads are all over the place, swinging from town to scum all game. When he's scum, he's much less organic and a lot more consistent. He tunnels pretty hard in either case, including when he's an investigative role like cop. It's a playstyle thing. Granted, I may be wrong about his play in this particular game, as being aware of one's meta is the surest way to subvert it, but I don't think that the case on him is strong enough to justify his lynch
That said, the way Grib presents his case has cast some doubt on my scum read. It's a fairly well-made case, if not one I can get behind, and it seems to come from a town mindset.

BBT's voting and reads jumping about is something that jumped out to me reading over. I was finding it suspicious. But now you've spoken about how this is more in line with his town meta.

Originally, I did also like Grib's argument highlighting the hypocrisy, and then I did find his wishy washy voting and reads as suspicious and was starting to lean slightly scum but now taking what your saying into account I'll now view that part as more in line with town. I don't think he was tunnelling as Beck views it. If you want tunnelling look no further than Beck himself, that's tunnelling. So I right now I'm not sure on a BBT lynch.
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Post Post #676 (ISO) » Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:21 pm

Post by Beck »

I don't think anyone tunnels like I do, but he was kind of tunneling
Beck =/= The band
Beck = a football player

"Without rules there is Chaos" C. Kramer
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Post Post #677 (ISO) » Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:08 pm

Post by Scripten »

In post 673, Mathdino wrote:
Scripten, is BBT town?


I honestly don't know for sure. My one non-newbie, non-scum experience with him, he tunneled me hard day 1, then switched to another townie who got lynched, used his cop inspect to clear me that night, then helped tunnel the townie who sheeped his day 1 case on me into a lynch. He wasn't just town in that game, but a power role. Maybe this helps you all understand why I'm so torn on this wagon. In his scum game with me, he was less interested in tunneling, his cases were generally more solid, and his reads didn't waver much. Granted, it was a newbie game and I was also scum, but this just does not feel like that. The only other meta read I've got is an ongoing game that I can't discuss.

All that said, I just cannot be arsed to defend BBT when my read on him is built only on meta. I'd rather have the info from his flip than try to justify his actions.

In post 673, Mathdino wrote:
If so, who is scum?


If BBT is town, I'd be most suspicious of Grib or Finnlaw. I'm not sure which would be most scummy to me yet, since they are on opposite sides of the wagon.

In post 673, Mathdino wrote:
If not, who is BBT's partner?


Probably Majiffy.
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Post Post #678 (ISO) » Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:28 pm

Post by Mathdino »

Yeah, you know what, your meta read is good enough for me right now. I played a (short lived) game with BBTown, very similar posting style.
UNVOTE: BBT
VOTE: Majiffy
I think the town as a whole seems to be more confident with a Majiffy lynch (especially considering how yung got run up) as well.
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Post Post #679 (ISO) » Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:07 pm

Post by insanity018 »

I am back.

Will post in a few hours.
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Post Post #680 (ISO) » Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:27 pm

Post by insanity018 »

In post 603, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:
I'm not sure what your point is here. Are you saying that because I am scum-reading someone that everything they say is wrong and irrelevant? Are you saying that because I think he is scum, I must be right, and therefore he cannot make any good points/provide good arguments?


Well if you are scumreading someone, that means you think they are trying to mislynch town and are therefore are usually suspicious of any argument they might make. Unless you think that they're bussing.

--

Hey
Majiffy
, while it's nice to see your SK speculations, I would much prefer seeing your actual reads instead? Or even any general thoughts about the current game state.

In post 538, insanity018 wrote:
In post 504, Majiffy wrote:{Beck, Insanity, FinnLaw}
Scum, in order of strength


Why? Why and why?


You even quoted the post where I asked this.

I support lynching Majiffy. The only drawback would be how low information that would be.
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Post Post #681 (ISO) » Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:58 pm

Post by Mathdino »

IMO, the very act of lynching Majiffy provides us with wagon analysis and the like. We also have the early yung wagon to look at. Then tomorrow we'll have the NK flip and when Scripten does or doesn't do his thing, we'll have more than enough info from the current conflicts to have some good discussion even if Majiffy flips town.

Okay so I was just about to ask why you weren't voting when I realised that you've been voting him the whole time. Never mind.
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Post Post #682 (ISO) » Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:25 pm

Post by BlueBloodedToffee »

Phone posting.

I have been reliably informed that my internet is now working.

I will be getting around to this game when I get home in about 3-4 hours.
Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.
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Post Post #683 (ISO) » Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:28 pm

Post by Beck »

Id be OK with jiffu, but I see no reason to let bbt off the hook
Beck =/= The band
Beck = a football player

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Post Post #684 (ISO) » Fri Oct 31, 2014 12:14 am

Post by Mathdino »

Here's the thing. Scripten's provided a pretty compelling argument that BBT might be a mislynch. The issue is that A. if Scripten himself is scum, that invalidates the whole thing, and B. BBT seems to enjoy manipulating his meta to screw with meta readers. The fact of the matter is, Beck, if you're right and Scripten's just scum stalling to D2, then we're screwed if we listen to anything he has to say. So let's hold off on the Scripten vs Beck vs Pine vs BBT vs Grib clusterfuck until tomorrow, when we'll have definitive information to help us untangle that.

It's also got to do with the fact that no one in the history of this game has been opposed to lynching Majiffy's slot, since it's kinda useless.
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Post Post #685 (ISO) » Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:56 am

Post by BlueBloodedToffee »

Gonna do this in chunks because I don't want to do a huge wall and I don't know how much I have to respond to.

In post 632, Scripten wrote:
That said, the way Grib presents his case has cast some doubt on my scum read. It's a fairly well-made case, if not one I can get behind, and it seems to come from a town mindset.

I absolutely love that you're defending me with meta. It almost brought a tear to my eye...

Seriously though, can you tell me what you like about Grib's case?

Spoiler: Response to Grib
In post 635, Grib wrote:
Do you still think he's scum?

Pine is still scum yeah.

In post 635, Grib wrote:
re: the bolded red, more hypocrisy. I scumslipped, remember? Your vote never should have moved to Beck. Especially since you never actually called him scum until this post, but only after you decided he's town again.

If I don't feel like your lynch is achievable, due to other people's reads/actions, then I have to move on to find your buddy. I'm not gonna sit and endlessly tunnel on the same point if nobody agrees with me. I have to wait for the rest of town to catch up and realize you're scum.

In post 635, Grib wrote:
I notice you never actually call Beck scum. Ever. It's always scummy or antitown.

I don't think I have ever encountered this problem before. If I state that someone is scummy over and over, you can safely assume that I think they're scum.

In post 635, Grib wrote:
Did you ever think he was scum, or just antitown? The way you worded this sentence feels like you're trying to answer the question as carefully as possible.

I quoted a lot of my posts that I feel clarifies my position on the matter.


In post 643, Beck wrote:
just going off this, I feel like for most of the game he has played like the 2nd one. He was tunneling pretty hard on grib and then tunneling on me. He did hop off to vote a lurker and I think he voted pine at some point, but he's been doing a bit of tunneling this game.

I have not tunneled this game. You will know when I am tunneling. Regardless, I tunnel as either alignment so it's a null-tell.

The fact you're saying I tunneled on both you and Grib, and then voted for 2 other people, kind of shows that I haven't been tunneling.
Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.
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Post Post #686 (ISO) » Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:13 am

Post by BlueBloodedToffee »

In post 657, Mathdino wrote:
That said I'm probably still happier with a BBT lynch, partially because it gives us more flip info.

Pine, Finn, BBT, insanity, thoughts on a Majiffy wagon?

I need to read Majiffy's slot regarding a wagon on him, I don't even remember who he replaced.

In post 659, Grib wrote:
In post 656, Scripten wrote:Are you happier with a BBT lynch or a Majiffy lynch? I'd honestly be happier with a Majiffy lynch atm. There's pretty much nothing supporting that slot being town.


Are you trying to
appease
me? Do you realize that if it weren't for your softclaim, at this point I'd probably be leading a lynchwagon straight into your face? The way you're clinging to meta and trying to redirect the BBT wagon is raising flags.

I keep getting violent flashes of "Scripten is scum, isn't he, fuck Beck for being right" but then I try to calm myself. It's okay, Grib, everything will be clear toMorrow, just relax.

Scum-reading people on associations without the relevant information is bad. You should stop doing that.

In post 669, Grib wrote:
In post 668, Grib wrote:It's hypocritical because we both wanted to lynch Beck
for the same reasons
at some point, but he's calling me scum for it.


BBT claims he doesn't understand by reasoning (calling Beck dumb) when. It's very clear I wanted to lynch him for antitown shenanigans. Like. I had a post about how tunneling a provable town PR is really, really stupid. There is no ambiguity there.

I'm going to lose my fucking shit over this soon.

You said Beck was anti-town and wanted to lynch him for being dumb and to shut him up.

I said Beck was scummy and I wanted to lynch him for being scummy.

There is a gigantic difference in those statements.

I'm honestly stunned at what is going on right now
Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.
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Post Post #687 (ISO) » Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:25 am

Post by BlueBloodedToffee »

I saw that Majiffy replaced Yung and was like 'Yeah, let's lynch Majiffy'.

But now I don't want to. Other than the set up spec about SK, I'm not sure why people think Majiffy is scum?

He could certainly contribute more yeah, but I don't see how that makes him scum. To steal a quote from someone's sig 'Effort is not indicative of alignment'

I would much rather lynch Grib or Pine. Maybe Finn if he doesn't stop parroting.
Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.
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Post Post #688 (ISO) » Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:43 am

Post by Scripten »

Okay, I need a bit before I come back into this game. I'm going back to reread and figure out where people are.

UNVOTE:
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Post Post #689 (ISO) » Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:09 am

Post by ArcAngel9 »

Pine have been prodded again. This is his final prod. If he doesn't respond in next few hours. I will force replace him.
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Xena Warrior Princess, Coming Soon!!
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Post Post #690 (ISO) » Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:11 am

Post by ArcAngel9 »

VOTE COUNT - 1.12
Scripten-

BlueBloodedToffee-
Grib,Beck
Grib-
Pine, BlueBloodedToffee
Beck-
FinnLaw, Majiffy
Pine-

FinnLaw-

Majiffy-
insanity018, Mathdino

Not Voting

Scripten

With 9 alive it takes 5 for a lynch and 4 for no lynch.

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2014-11-05 09:36:00)
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Xena Warrior Princess, Coming Soon!!
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Post Post #691 (ISO) » Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:11 am

Post by Pine »

My limited access turned into no access unexpectedly, then went much longer than anticipated. I'm back online and will be trying to get current over the next 24 hours. Please be patient, I have several fast-moving games to catch up to.

Note to self: 582

This game has my first priority, given ArcAngel's replacement policy and how fast it moves

>> Thank you, I hate replacing. And Welcome back :] <<
"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"

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Post Post #692 (ISO) » Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:17 am

Post by Grib »

Spoiler: BBT stuff
In post 685, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:
Pine is still scum yeah.


Neat.

In post 685, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:If I don't feel like your lynch is achievable, due to other people's reads/actions, then I have to move on to find your buddy. I'm not gonna sit and endlessly tunnel on the same point if nobody agrees with me. I have to wait for the rest of town to catch up and realize you're scum.


My lynch isn’t achievable because I’m town and you are not going to mislynch me. I’m waiting for town to wake up and lynch you, but now everyone’s drawn to the lynchbait slot because they’re all too afraid of the possibility of mislynching you. Even though there's a fair chance Majiffy is just bad!town.

In post 685, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:I don't think I have ever encountered this problem before. If I state that someone is scummy over and over, you can safely assume that I think they're scum.


It kinda depends on the player. I don’t know you, so it was something worth mentioning.

That’s actually not a good assumption. Town wants to lynch scum -- scum want to lynch scummy players.

In post 685, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:I quoted a lot of my posts that I feel clarifies my position on the matter.


See, you’re doing it again. Attempting to answer the question but also dodging it. I’m looking for a simple, concrete yes or no. Why is that so difficult for you?

In post 685, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:Scum-reading people on associations without the relevant information is bad. You should stop doing that.


No thanks.

In post 685, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:I'm going to lose my fucking shit over this soon.

You said Beck was anti-town and wanted to lynch him for being dumb and to shut him up.

I said Beck was scummy and I wanted to lynch him for being scummy.

There is a gigantic difference in those statements.

I'm honestly stunned at what is going on right now


No, there isn’t. Don’t pretend one of your reasons for wanting to lynch him wasn’t “antitown.”

I called Beck dumb and wanted to shut him up
because
he’s being antitown. You cannot be this dense.

In post 687, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:I saw that Majiffy replaced Yung and was like 'Yeah, let's lynch Majiffy'.

But now I don't want to. Other than the set up spec about SK, I'm not sure why people think Majiffy is scum?

He could certainly contribute more yeah, but I don't see how that makes him scum. To steal a quote from someone's sig 'Effort is not indicative of alignment'

I would much rather lynch Grib or Pine. Maybe Finn if he doesn't stop parroting.


Those wagons aren’t happening. It’s you or Majiffy.

Don’t even talk to me about sig quoting. (Looking at you, Scripten.)


This meta defense is really grating.

I'll compromise on a Majiffy lynch if everyone's
so
against lynching obvious scum.
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Post Post #693 (ISO) » Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:33 am

Post by BlueBloodedToffee »

In post 692, Grib wrote:
That’s actually not a good assumption. Town wants to lynch scum -- scum want to lynch scummy players.

That's actually a retarded statement to make. Seriously.

In post 692, Grib wrote:No, there isn’t. Don’t pretend one of your reasons for wanting to lynch him wasn’t “antitown.”

I called Beck dumb and wanted to shut him up
because
he’s being antitown. You cannot be this dense.

It's you who is being dense. I said Beck was scum, multiple times, you said he was anti-town. I did not say he was anti-town.

The only time I even remotely referred to Beck as town during that time is when I said 'Beck is anti-town at the very, very best and scummy at worst'. That means, if I gave Beck extreme leeway, (hence the very, very best section of that statement) I could see him being town in the absolute best of light. Otherwise, he was scum.

In post 692, Grib wrote:Those wagons aren’t happening. It’s you or Majiffy.

My oh my, you seem extremely confident up there on your pedestal. Feel like you're in control of this game do you?
Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.
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Post Post #694 (ISO) » Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:35 am

Post by Scripten »

In post 692, Grib wrote:
No, there isn’t. Don’t pretend one of your reasons for wanting to lynch him wasn’t “antitown.”

I called Beck dumb and wanted to shut him up
because
he’s being antitown. You cannot be this dense.


Wait.

Clarify this for me. Did you think Beck was scum when you voted him? Please just yes or no.
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Post Post #695 (ISO) » Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:36 am

Post by Scripten »

BBT and Grib:
Define exactly what you believe "anti-town" means, please? As in, one sentence, simply what it is and what alignment it is a subset of.
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Post Post #696 (ISO) » Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:37 am

Post by BlueBloodedToffee »

Town playing against their win-con.
Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.
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Post Post #697 (ISO) » Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:39 am

Post by Scripten »

Holy shit.

Waiting for Grib to post, but I think I've figured this out.
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Post Post #698 (ISO) » Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:39 am

Post by BlueBloodedToffee »

In post 694, Scripten wrote:
Wait.

Clarify this for me. Did you think Beck was scum when you voted him? Please just yes or no.

No, he didn't.

He specifically said he was voting him because he was 'dumb' and 'wanted to shut him up'.

I believe he has admitted to this in thread.
Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.
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Post Post #699 (ISO) » Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:42 am

Post by BlueBloodedToffee »

In post 526, Grib wrote:I'm tempted to vote you just to shut you up.

In post 537, Grib wrote:Also, I'm not eager to hammer. I'm eager for Beck to stop being dumb before he becomes a bigger liability.

But keep doubtcasting, it's cute.


In post 583, Grib wrote:
Not gonna lie, Beck's play is fucking annoying, and if I live to see toMorrow I don't want to have to deal with Round 2 of his shit tunnel on someone else, but he's likely town and the people who brought his wagon to L-1 needed to be poked. So I threatened to hammer. I'd do it again. In hindsight, I admit I was thinking "if the lynch is between me and him, welp, sucks to suck." It was a moment of weakness.
Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.

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