[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[TierShift]

So scum actually have only 3 people to choose from to be witness? I think you can expect any half-decent scum to figure out the masons and then have just a small witness pool, from which they will choose the one with the most awkward reads.

Witness will play like scum, knowing who the scum is, but needing to make fake cases on town and thus is likely to either get figured out by scum or be lynched (and be figured out afterwards by scum).

2:7 mountainous is really scumsided and I don't think putting in masons outweighs the extreme anti-town utility that is the witness.

If you wanna use witness, you will have to put in more town power.

[TierShift]

Suggestions?

I originally had 2 cops instead of masons, would that be better?

Adding more townies would work? Some other town roles that make players play awkwardly?

[TierShift]

Shamelessly stealing format from BBmolla

Baby mafia

9 Players

2 Mafia Goons

1 Babysitter
1 Night 2 cop
1 Odd-night tracker
4 VTs

I like the babysitter role and it'd be lovely in a micro.

I'm not exactly sure what goes with it well, so I just decided on investigative roles. What else could fit?

[TierShift]

I think Poison Doctor is a little negative utility, letting a single player control which lynch goes through. If he stops a lynch, the player will just be lynched the next day.
that gives a doc with a tracker in a 9v3 (even number) setup. Just too scumsided. I have no idea how unlimited lynches will affect the scumsidedness of the setup.

[TierShift]

That's a 100% townwin
Day 1 lynch everyone
Have everyone heal the person above them on the playerlist
The 3 people below the dead guys are scum

[TierShift]

Biggest question, of course, is how many X Townies might be balanced.

The setup looks quite mountainous to me, with the only difference that there is someone guaranteed to live to the next day. I don't know how many townies you wanna add, but even 11:2 mountainous is a tad scumsided, so. You might consider throwing in some town power.

[TierShift]

So the king masons do not know each others alignment?

[TierShift]

That's assuming an incompetent Jester. With a competent Jester, it becomes more scumsided. Thus, also a sort of team.

Seems like an interesting setup.

[TierShift]

You're assuming the Jester has a smaller chance to get lynched than random; thus, incompetent.

[TierShift]

Flay's scenario follows if the Jester has 0% chance of being lynched.
I'll calculate the actual percentages:
25% Jester lynched*33% of town win in LyLo--> 8,25%
25% mafia goon lynched-->25%
50% townie lynched*50% town win in LyLo-->25%
Gives an EV of 58,25%
Townsided, yes, but not ridiculously.

[TierShift]

The homeless just claims day 1.

[TierShift]

Might work if the homeless receives a vanilla PM, and there is more than one of him.

So then you have millers, who don't know that they're millers. That's pretty bastard.

[TierShift]

If new neighbourhoods are formed, are the old ones erased or do they keep existing?

I think this is probably scum-sided, with scum just able to join the 'dangerous' hoods. It's pretty hard to correctly use hoods if you have no certainty of your neighbours being town.

Perhaps add a little town power that is not investigative, but helps preserve the town's strongest players, bodyguard/doc perhaps?

[TierShift]

F16, your game looks nice.

I'd suggest a circulating night kill, so scum must make certain not to get nightkilled themselves by an unknowing buddy. I'm not sure 11-4 is balanced but the traitor mechanic and absence of factional discussion might make it so?

[TierShift]

I like the idea. There's way too many scum though. It's almost impossible to send a scum to hell and after a few days of only town sendings, scum almost get a majority of votes.

10-3 and only 2 scum up/down? Still scumsided, I think.

[TierShift]

Molla, I don't understand why scum need to have so much power. One or maybe 2 out of 3 of those PR's certainly seems enough.

[TierShift]

Traitor gets recruited on NK?

Setup seems lovely, SK just needs to seem town and doesn't have to worry about being NK'd and still is balanced by knifesmith. Good stuff.

I'm just worried about town. After a town lynch day 1 and a town vig shot, town seems extremely boned. Idk how to fix it.

[TierShift]

They add a member.

Unrecruited traitor loses if left with townies
Recruited traitor needs to die before town wins.
3-man scumteam is better than 2-man scumteam.

[TierShift]

I know, but I took the most accepted choice where there was one. Like traitor losing with townies.

[TierShift]

I like the first version better, but there's a few things that I don't understand/need improvement.

1. The setup is inherently townsided by letting town have 3 lynches and thus 60% chance of hitting scum (disregarding 50% neighbourizer). Neighbourhoods are somewhat positive utility, so that's even more townsided. Why not add a nightkill and have only two lynches?

2. There's a 50% chance the neighbourizer is scum. So you can lynch 2 random townies and then the neighbourizer for an EV of 75% (0.5 town neighbourizer*0.5 lynching scum in two rounds+0.5 mafia neighbourizer=0.75) Why not let every player have a 20% chance of being scum?

Point 2 is most important.

I don't really like the addition because it has the possibility of ruining the game thread by only talking in QT's.

[TierShift]

Hmm. If mafia is lynched day 1 and the cops all randomly target someone, it seems almost unwinnable for maf.
However, if town is lynched, the cop shots cannot even confirm a single person.

If you go for the other variant, the game is broken after a maf lynch by targetting the person below you.
After a town lynch the game will probably be a tad better with the alternate version.

[TierShift]

How do we fix that then? Give Mafia 1-shot mass roleblock if partner is lynched d1?

That's a very inelegant solution.

I think the setup is just flawed. If scum is lynched, it's town autowin and if town is lynched it's more or less mountainous, which is easily won by scum.

Perhaps let the scum have 3-scum alive visits, which boils down to two visits if scum lynched and one visit if town lynched.

[TierShift]

That's good, actually.

And if scum lynched, no more investigations.

[TierShift]

Of course maf can visit, otherwise it's over D1.

[TierShift]

Do maf have a NK on top of that?

[TierShift]

Wouldn't wanna play in it, but if that is what jingle is going for, I guess it is.

PL's would serve no function anymore.

[TierShift]

10v3 is scumsided. I don't know the actual EV's but I doubt having more town players alive will alter correct lynch rate, in practice.

[TierShift]

shouldn't scum be punished for letting their igniters die tho?

[TierShift]

Why do you think so?

[TierShift]

shouldn't scum be punished for letting their igniters die tho?

In most cases losing all primes is a pretty big punishment, making all previous days effectively nightless

that's not such a big deal if scum get killed in the first two days, but that's counterbalancing

Yeah but
You should be able to manage one of your igniters staying alive as a scumteam. If you fail at that, I don't see why you should receive 'help' and gain a NK. In some situations with a very strong town voice, it might even be a relief to ditch your last igniter to just get the NK. It doesn't make sense.

JW, there's no reason to withhold info scum already has. Even if you don't use it, you should clam if primed or not. And as BB said, it makes it harder for scum to fakeclaim.

[TierShift]

Or make the igniter a suicide day igniter which is functionally the same but more elegant.

And still let them ignite for free at night.

[TierShift]

Make the ignite day ending, problem solved.

The second one can be suicide ignite too? Just do it when you're at L-2 or something.

[TierShift]

Didn't you just finish running one of these games? Let me gloss over it and see how it played out.

Why exactly did you feel the need to strengthen mafia?

[TierShift]

I like the goon/goon shared 1-shot BP idea by nikanor.

[TierShift]

mith, all of your setups seem to aim towards a ~40% town EV. I know that EV theoretically should be below 50%, but do you think that holds true?

[TierShift]

I like the idea of last will vig. But why give the scumteam a vig instead of a regular nightkill?

Afaik 10:3 is scumsided and vig is not positive utility so I do not see how that EV is so high.

[TierShift]

Wait, scum get a factional kill AND a vigkill?

[TierShift]

That seems about right.

Town needs more power.

[TierShift]

Any recommendations? My gut says Gunsmith or Oracle would be the logical power role to put in for town. Leaning towards the latter. (Target someone at night, if the oracle dies that night and the target was town, they are mod-confirmed as town)

Even with a full cop it looks scumsided due to the amount of kills.

[TierShift]

Perhaps the town vig should just disappear after being given to scum, that would mitigate the ev.

[TierShift]

It's horrible because noflip.

[TierShift]

Uh, it's probably fine as it is. It's a smaller version of Triplicate Mafia and IIRC all Triplicate's ran have been a perfect scum win.

In practice, not getting lynched day 1 as scum is easy, speaking from experience both as town and as scum im the setup.

There is a difference with triplicate though: all groups contain scum. So the WIFOM factor is elimnated.
But looks good.

[TierShift]

What's the fun in being a suicidal goon/ww?

[TierShift]

The All-Seeing Eye

11 Players

3 Mafia Goon

7 Vanilla Townies

1 Knowledgeable survivor

• Knowledgeable survivor knows alignment of every player in the game
  
• Knowledgeable survivor wins ALONE if all scum are eliminated and he lives
  
• Town wins only if they eliminate the knowledgeable survivor before the last scum member

Thoughts on balance? Or a better name for knowledgeable survivor? A way to make the game interesting if the knowledgeable survivor dies early/a way to ensure he doesn't die early?

[TierShift]

The survivor needs to lynch the mafia. The mafia want to get rid of him because of that.

[TierShift]

I made a lot of mafia. Thus, the survivor will need to get mafia lynched a lot. By doing so, he can be found out by town. That's the idea behind the setup anyway.

Feel free to add townies or mafia to make it more balanced. Possibly nightless would be better?

[TierShift]

yeah, that's a problem I thought of as well. No idea how to fix.

[TierShift]

I don't think you understand what I'm going for with this setup, a reverse mafia of sorts. A player needs not to kill town, but mafia without being found out.

Anyone got any other ideas as to get this idea working?

[TierShift]

Hehehe...love the name.

Now shifter can just lynch town for two days after which he suicides. leaving 5p LyLo and very likely winning.

[TierShift]

Hehehe...love the name.

Now shifter can just lynch town for two days after which he suicides. leaving 5p LyLo and very likely winning.

I imagine that'd be the optimal way to play it, which may not be all that bad now that I'm doing the math.

But that is totally not how I want it to be played. I have a solution: claiming shifter results in a modkill! That should solve all issues.

May want to consider giving Shifter a better chance at not accidentally being nightkilled those first two nights. Not sure how without it significantly changing balance of the setup.

Maybe make him a Night 1 and 2 commuter?

But then mafia know who he is...and I don't want confirmable town roles like 1-shot BP to counteract that. Maybe make it 5-1-3 nightless?

[TierShift]

Kingmaker explicitly forbids t claim kingmaker on grounds of modkill.

Let's just say claiming is not allowed, since everyone should claim VT anyway. Any attempt to circumvent the rule as you just described should be rewarded with a modkill too.

[TierShift]

If they use it to claim shifter, no. If it's a moron who is always 100% sure in his reads but in fact a below-average scumhunter, yes.

You get it, don't try to circumvent the rule.

[TierShift]

So...what are you trying to say wrt my setup?

[TierShift]

Vengeful lylo is hard as fuck to win for scum

I like it

EV is:
2/3*1/2*2/3=2/9
1/3*2/3=2/9
Makes 4/9 which is 44% EV I think.

Good!

[TierShift]

Town should get a lynch before deadline, so stalling is stupid.

[TierShift]

Nice analogy molla

[TierShift]

Is it poop headstart?

[TierShift]

Poopsmith should be renamed to sniffer y/n

[TierShift]

neighbour's dilemma has no informed minority though. makes it pretty hard on town.

[TierShift]

You should add that players know they are poisoned but ok

I don't think it's too scumsided tbh, it removes scum's ability to remove the strongest town player reliably.

[TierShift]

Well, town usually has no fucking clue who their strongest town player is...so I don't think it will change town winrate by much. 9v2 looks okay, not really sure why you went for 10v2.

[TierShift]

Bb, you should work on formulating the setup. It took me at least 3 minutes to see how it would actually play out.

If town is lynched day 1, the game continues into 3p and another lynch occurs which also doesn't flip.

This is not conditional, right? It always continues into 3p.

If both are town, the dead mafia select one of them to be flipped.

One of themselves. You should have said themselves.

On the setup itself...meh. It would be in scum's best interest to get themselves lynched twice, probably, which leads to a setup with what...two jesters?

And your avi...noooooooo pls

[TierShift]

that's not a problem, I think. 3 doctors and only 1 scum alive SHOULD be a town win.

[TierShift]

I like guarding the gallows. Almost mafia.

[TierShift]

All these setups blow

Son's right, epicmafia's are much better.

[TierShift]

Shh wgeurts

[TierShift]

Ttt is too townsided imo

[TierShift]

The TT solution is terribly inelegant, though.

[TierShift]

Hey this is very close to the setup I posted here with the third party that knows all the scum, except here it isn't town's job to find him out, but scum's.

Do you consider merlin postive or negative utility? I'm still on the fencem I think it's pretty easy to find out.

[TierShift]

I like the idea, but it's super scumsided. Mountainous 2v7 is scumsided and now you add another scumsided mechanic which also increases wifom.

[TierShift]

I'd say it's still townsided.
10v3 w/ cop and bodyguard is somewhat balanced
now scum don't know each other but have a PR to make up for it.
I'd say that's worse than 3 goons who know each other.

[TierShift]

No, then it's scumsided. And the whole idea of your setup geos away.

[TierShift]

What PR's does town have?

[TierShift]

I'd have to see example setups to comment on how many points scum need to have.

[TierShift]

Scumteam 2 goons
SK 1-shot BP

[TierShift]

Mafia seems extremely weak.

[TierShift]

Well, 2v6 nightless is townsided. Then you add in a SK and that's not good for mafia. And one of the members can suicide.

It just seems very unlikely for both mafia to get far.

[TierShift]

Why does SK only kill town? A random player gets removed, just like a lynch. Almost like nightless, non?

There's always those awful people who spoil the game like that, those people should be banned from playing imo.

[TierShift]

I missed the SK doesn't kill maf thing

Carry on, I suck >.<

[TierShift]

I still don't understand what a fisherman does.

[TierShift]

I'm actually not.sure massclaim breaks the game. Having groups in which to find scum reminds me of triplicate mafia; IIRC that has never been won.by town.

Thanks for the explanation, though. Gaining PR's could tip the game strongly in town's favour depending on the strength of those.

If the PR's are strong, then the massclaim needs fixing and a semi-open setup would probably be the best idea, yeah.

[TierShift]

As what do the power roles flip?

[TierShift]

So what pr's?

[TierShift]

Are millers told they are mllers?

Even if not, the game is breakable by massclaim.
If scum doesn't claim PR, enjoy your three conftown who can also start to confirm town if the weak neighbouriser dies.
If scum does claim PR, you have the four claims target each other in this fashion: A-->B-->C-->D-->A. If either of the weak neighbouriser or masoniser hit scum (66%), scum loses their neighbouriser. If the neighbouriser connects with the scum neighbouriser, still no harm done. You have scum divided in two groups and with the next night you figure out the scum PR regardless.

[TierShift]

My breaking strategy still works in 66% of the cases, I believe. It's only not as breakable in the other 33% of the cases anymore.

[TierShift]

You should draw out the possibilities for A, B, C and D's roles and highlight an optimal nightkill and then look at the percentages.

I think in very few/no cases there's not a confirmed scum day 3, but if the weak neighbouriser dies by targeting scum/miller it might be a scum victory by day 3.

I've contemplated A<->B C<->D targeting strategies but that still leaves you with the problem of neighbourisers targeting each other.
What is definitely suboptimal play is for unidentified PR's to target non-PR's as guilties and inno's don't mean shit and that can lead to deaths.
Another thing to keep in mind is: 2 kills-->one of them weak neighbouriser targeting scum. 1 kill, even weak neighbouriser-->target doesn't have to be scum.

I think fully calculating this will take you about 15-30 minutes, at least. Go try it.

[TierShift]

My earlier response was stupid, so I deleted it.
If scum has a nightkill, super scumsided
If scum does not have a nightkill, looks good. I think it will be scumsided in practice, since scum have a huuuuuge influence in the town; they only need to sway3 townies for a majority.

[TierShift]

Oh yeah, forgot that, lol. Looks pretty damning to scum.
Unless the mayor is scum, in which case scum always wins.

[TierShift]

shinobi, the town EV of your setup is 0.21 with incredibly low info lynches. You should think of something to increase the EV.

Bob, why do you want to play the most annoying part of a game, day 1, 4 times?
Other than that, the score for lynched townie should be as low as a failing PI; if you got lynched, you suck at least as hard as they do. Instead, you can give them the opportunity to guess the scum, with a penalty for getting lynched. In that way, you can still test their ability of scumhunting, even if their town play doesn't look that town.

[TierShift]

they don't have to. Look at how the dolphin micro went. They need to state opinions on other players.

[TierShift]

I think the idea is pretty great, I'm just not sure about the balance. All of town's strong PR's (jk, cop) are strictly countered by a roleblocker (rb, joat). I think scum can just claim to be VT's in these setups and not worry too much about confirmed townies; they can just kill them off. I suggest adding more goons in the matrix.

Also, setup 12 is reheheheaaaly underpowered for town.

[TierShift]

Hey, this looks lovely! The skeleton is really helpful in determining where the remaining problem with your setup lies: with the doctors. All the setup without docs look very good, but your idea of docs is screwed up. Doctor is

not

a strong PR. It should have 2 x's, not 4. In all the setups with a doc, town is severely underpowered. In two of the setups, there even is a strongman. A strongman completely negates every single power a doc has. The doc basically turns into a VT until the strongman is dead, by which time scum probably have figured out all the PR's and the doc dies anyway. As to fix this, I'd suggest to make the strongman a 1-shot strongman.

This still does not fixz the doc problem. Town needs added power in these setups. Perhaps give town an added decent PR when there's a doc. Or nerf scum in some way. Or make the even-night doc a full doc and remove the other docs.

Other than that, I have some small fixes for your setup explanation.
Clarification for (3) is needed. Does the SK get both a strongman and a ninja kill in a night or does he have to choose? (I'd pick choose)
(9) if the doctor and bodyguard target each other and the bodyguard is shot, he should be fully protected by the doc, no matter who he targets. Why would someone not get doc protection if they target the doc?

[TierShift]

I think one thing to keep in mind is that the Matrix-6 setup leaves the scum guessing as to in which setup they are. Here they know all the time except for setups 6 and 10.

[TierShift]

The sooner the town loses PRs the sooner the townies know the Setup so it's a kind of "anti-swing compensation" (if that expression exists at all).

I get that. It's just something to keep in mind while thinking about differences in balance with your and the original setup.

@Guyett:
I'm wondering what the idea is here. There's one gunsmith who gets guilties on the mason group. The gunsmith gets perhaps one guilty before dying. I don't really see the added value in havng a gun circulate between members which
1. Is not really all that spectacular
2. Greatly diminishes the chance the gunsmith gets a guilty before dying

The gunsmith seems kind of useless with both the false positives and false negatives. Without the gunsmith, it's a 10:3:3:3 setup with 3 masons which is...okay, maybe? I have no idea how to balance 4-faction setups. Perhaps 9:2:2:2 would be better?

[TierShift]

I don't get it. It clearly says N is both a vanilla townie and a chocolate townie.

[TierShift]

I could make an alt called N. or something. Would that work?

[TierShift]

@Anen: I don't really know how to judge your setup. I would get rid of vig, which is just too strong in scum's hands and desperado, since that is insane town power. Bus driver is a chaos-enhancing role, not really sure if you should go for that. I'd have to see how the setup plays out to judge. All in all, I would replace some of the PR's with simpler ones or just leave them out altogether. I know that violates the principle of 1 fewer PR than player slots, but I think it'd improve the setup and steer it away from role madness towards c9++ esque setups.

@Molla: I like the last version best, others seem highly scumsided.

[TierShift]

Then get rid of vig.

I think your idea of scum-beneficial but not useless for town is bollocks; town is never going to choose that, so it doesn't matter if it's useless or almost useless for town. I think that you should instead add to the PR's that are strong for scum and moderately strong for town, for instance add a follower (which to some extent is like the existing rolecop).

[TierShift]

Looks good.

[TierShift]

That is honestly one of the least intelligent attempts at promoting activity that I have ever seen.

Posting 4 times on the same page is sometimes very useful.
Nothing stops players from just posting 'prod dodge'.
V/la players die.
Setting timers does nothing but add to prod dodges.

Players play when they want to, not when they're forced to.

[TierShift]

The joker can never win:
If he can give parcels to himself, he's bound to kill himself sooner rather than later.
If he cannot give parcels to himself, everyone who receives one is confirmed not-joker and that will eventually lead to the joker getting lynched.

I think there is something to say for a concept that has the joker be able to choose the people who receive the parcels; in that way, he can WIFOM by selecting himself. Still, doing so has a high chance of suiciding.

You need to define what the healing po(r?)tion does. Does it stop the virused player from dying? Who decides if the potion is applied or not? What do you mean by sharable?

[TierShift]

No, that would not work. First of all, it makes no sense at all flavourwise. Secondly, the joker would just side with the town as that makes it 7:2 nightless which is extremely extreheeemely townsided. If he can confirm himself as the joker (which he can, by claiming day 1 and never getting parcels), it's always a win.

Once again, what does the healing potion do?

[TierShift]

It must be in one team's favour and in one team's disfavour to keep the joker around, that is imperative. Problem is, I haven't figured out which team want him and which team doesn't.

[TierShift]

Random kills, from a pure EV standpoint, are in favour of one team or the other. As the teams have opposing wincons, it must hurt one team more than the other. I currently think scums benefit most from the joker as it has the possibility to kill outside the lynchpool that scums most likely are in. The joker would rather side with town, though, as they have a bigger chance of winning. Town also should not spend a lynch on the joker.

[TierShift]

I just think it's not that much fun when put into practice. The joker has no incentive to keep his identity hidden (and can't) and just sides with the faction that's doing best. Random kills aren't fun, btw. Nothing to screw up your day as extremely well-playing scum as dying due to random luck.

[TierShift]

joker doesn't know who got the parcels, though.

[TierShift]

During day Joker creates 3 parcels and send it to random people.

He doesn't know who he sends the parcels to

[TierShift]

I like it, but I'd get rid of the framer or the godfather. You don't need two counters to a cop. That makes it so the results cannot be trusted at all. One counter seems appropriate, so just a framer, I think.

I like your idea of not telling the backups that they are backups. They need to flip as backup though.

[TierShift]

No, cops need to know which one is in play or they get reeeaally weak.

[TierShift]

I'd suggest just using one. This unnecessarily complicates the setup and makes the results of each game harder to compare.

Choose the gf if you want simplicity; framer if you want a wifom element.

[TierShift]

I'd suggest just using one. This unnecessarily complicates the setup and makes the results of each game harder to compare.

Choose the gf if you want simplicity; framer if you want a wifom element.

I think I would like to sample both before I make my choice.

it's not really going to run that often.

@bbmolla: the advantage of keeping backups hidden is that massclaim doesn't work.

[TierShift]

Otolia, your math is wrong. It assumes a specific person, while it can be any person. The chance of targeting the same person is actually 1 in [amount of players]. So 1 in 9 for N1, 1 in 7 (likely) for N2, etc.

Anyway, tailor plus vengekill is much too strong. Take away tailor and replace cop with tracker and you got yourself a setup.

[TierShift]

Desperado>vig btw

[TierShift]

just get rid of the tailors already.

[TierShift]

Tailors aren't that bad, it's basically just weakening the cop. It also makes for some fun speculation.

that's the problem; town is already weak enough with the scum vengekill. You don't need to

also

nerf the cop.

[TierShift]

without the vengekill, you have to get rid of the desperado. Then it would look nothing like your original setup.

[TierShift]

I like the multiball pgo setups.

I suggest you run the numbers for domination mafia a few times. I have no idea about the balance.

[TierShift]

Why did you include a mafia doctor?

[TierShift]

Is that obvious... Protect themselves from being killed by SK?

I'm not stupid. I'm asking why he thinks it's necessary for scum to be able to protect themselves.

[TierShift]

How do you deal with people preferring 'everyone loses' over getting lynched?

[TierShift]

This looks interesting!
Just a few questions to think about:
Why is the mafia oracle only 1-shot and town oracles 2-shot? Doesn't make sense.
I think the roleblocker should be full RB, why is it 1-shot?

Why can't mafia oracle target partner or the person mafia kills? Seems like a needlessly complicating rule.

[TierShift]

Kansas City

9 Vanilla Townies
1 Cop

3 Mafia Goons

Special mechanic

: Cop gets an investigation result on a random Vanilla Townie prior to the game starting.
Night-talk only.

Let Mafia select who the Cop gets the result on. Have them select two players so that if one is the cop the other one is confirmed town instead.

That'd be my advice, less randomness. A game with a confirmed town zMuffin is very different from a game with a confirmed town new player who doesn't know what they're doing.

That would make the guy that is not confirmed have a bigger chance of being cop. Why not just make it random? IC's are always random, other roles that require skill are also random, I don't see why a confirmed townie shouldn't be.

[TierShift]

oh no, I read it like everyone else did. The version where they only fail if targeting the same player is much better.

[TierShift]

Inspired by my own 11PM setup, whose goal was go make a balanced 11p multiball, I tried to redice that number even further. Came up with this:

9p setup

1 Cult A Leader & Poisoner

1 Cult B Leader & Poisoner

N unrecruitable townies
M poisonproof townies
7-M-N vanilla townies

Cult leaders may only recruit once, and cannot recruit each other. They can also only poison once.They cannot recruit and poison at the same night. A poisoned person will die at the end of the following day.

Trying to figure out best numbers for M and N for balance purposes, and I also considered giving the culters weak modifiers.

this is immensely scumsided. If a townie gets lynched day 1 and both cults succesfully recruit, town has no hopes of winning. If one recruits, there are 3 scum in an 8p game. Still incredibly ahrd to win for town.
Another problem is that town doesn't know how many scum are alive.

[TierShift]

Then they'll just recruit instead of poison.

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Then get rid of the poison

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It doesn't say that cult leaders die if they fail to recruit. But that's the case? Or only if they target other cult? What happens if both leaders cult the same person?

[TierShift]

What happens if they both cult same person

I would like to suggest either a variable number of unrecruitable/poisonproof townies or telling them they are just VTs. Otherwise it becomes a very boring game of PoE.

Next to that, I'd suggest unrecruitable and poisonproof townies know that they have been targeted. In that manner, it is always known how many scum are alive, something that is vital for town to succeed. If you do not want that, you should keep in mind that town not knowing how many scum there are messes with balance.

If you tell poisonproof and unrecruitable townies that they are VTs, you can even PM them something ambiguous such as 'cult tried to do something to you tonight. They failed.'

With my proposed changes, I'd say make 3 townies unrecruitable and tell them they're VT. No poisonproof townies.

[TierShift]

Two lynches per gameday.

[TierShift]

Can mafia kill the person who they give desperado to?
Are the desperados 1-shot and when do they take their shot?

It's probably very townsided if desperados communicate their targets well because they will shoot all the scummy townies and that means they can't be mislynched by scum anymore.

[TierShift]

Can mafia kill the person who they give desperado to?
Are the desperados 1-shot and when do they take their shot?

It's probably very townsided if desperados communicate their targets well because they will shoot all the scummy townies and that means they can't be mislynched by scum anymore.

Yes, but that's an oversight. I'll fix.
1-shot, whenever.

Keep in mind how fast people are dying. 10 alive going into day 2.

Maybe I should make vig compulsive though.

Make the desperado compulsive too

But well usually scum have the same amount of kills as town and now that ratio will be about 4:1

[TierShift]

Longer deadlines aren't really seen as townsided anymore

[TierShift]

Suicide Bomber Mafia

4 Mafia Goons

11 Townies

• Day start
  
• Mafia does not have a traditional factional kill; they have a factional suicide bomb invention.
  
• A player given a bomb by the mafia that night will die. That player may target another player to kill them as well.

Thoughts?

This is the best setup I have seen in months. It's innovative while looking fun to play.
Don't know about balance or PRs though.

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Constantine the game is still broken by massclaim. Have you got any idea how that works?

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There're 5 town roles that are unique..claiming any of those as scum is equal to suicide. Not claiming any of those leads to 5 confirmed town on day 1.

Get it?

[TierShift]

Okay, let me see how this works.
Scum have a NK that ONLY works on the bartender?
What does the cheerleader do?
What do you mean by potency of the alcohol?

[TierShift]

What mario said

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Ascetic can be seen by watcher, right?

I feel like there are too many town power roles which can cause the game to become breakable if VTs are lynched and NKd, which sucks for scum.

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town is going to win 100% of the time but good try m8

[TierShift]

[sarcasm]town always wins 3:6 games with a nightkill right?[/sarcasm]