Open 570: Making Friends and Enemies (Mafia Wins!)

[Peabody]

Why don't you hate the wagon?

Because I have no reason to believe he's town.

So I've been reviewing the people who aren't involved in the GM wagon in some way (either on it, or questioning those who are on it). You're in this category.

Has anything happened since the quoted post to change your reads?

I'm mainly posting my thoughts as I go, but right now Heph is on my radar. In regards to the NPAU wagon, I didn't like it. As for GM, I did affirm to her that the scum reads on her based on her not taking time to read the thread are null and that she simply hadn't read the thread yet.

Well, it's been a while since this game started, and I don't remember GM being particularly proactive apart from being defensive. I'd like to see more from her, and this might be unfair, but it feels to me when I consider GM in this game, that she's in a constant state of not being current in the thread.



Which makes it SUPER hard for me to put a town label on her. And I like Mala's meta read on GM because she provided reasoning that I am thinking might have truth to it (GM avoiding the thread as scum?).


However, the fast wagon helps in knocking her toward a towner side of null than a scummier.

Heph, what do you feel about the fastbuilding and derailing of the GM wagon?

Why don't you hate the wagon?

MS, how did you come to that conclusion?

he is happy to vote me or npau

if both of us are town, he is happy to vote town

and that is only what scum will do

This post is from town.

While I like Heph's 548 like uctriton00 does, I don't like his response to 547. Switching your vote from someone you find as scummy (MS) to someone you have 'no reason to believe he's town' (NPAU) does not seem logical to me.

I happen to agree.

She said she was working on a reads-list a while back, I've been waiting for it.

I didn't know she was posting elsewhere though.

VOTE: GM

Why is your vote on GM exactly? I got the feeling this was a sheep as well (same as dave feels), but feel free to prove me wrong.

GM

if you are town, indeed town, then do something other than defend yourself from Ms

I would think that someone who is unsure of her reads as you have stated you are, Mala, would want to cling onto a read you find more solid, ie GM. She seems to be fitting her scum meta according to you, so my question is this: Why are you coaching her here?

[beastcharizard]

Vote Count

Goodmorning: BlueBloodedToffee, hephaestus, nopointinactingup
hephaestus: Peabody, Josh_B
Metal Sonic: Goodmorning
nopointinactingup: Scripten, Metal Sonic, Huntress, ucitron00

Not voting: davesaz, shinobi, Malakittens
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline: (expired on 2014-10-04 20:45:00)

[Malakittens]

Which makes it SUPER hard for me to put a town label on her. And I like Mala's meta read on GM because she provided reasoning that I am thinking might have truth to it (GM avoiding the thread as scum?).


However, the fast wagon helps in knocking her toward a towner side of null than a scummier.

Malakittens wrote:
GM

if you are town, indeed town, then do something other than defend yourself from Ms

I would think that someone who is unsure of her reads as you have stated you are, Mala, would want to cling onto a read you find more solid, ie GM. She seems to be fitting her scum meta according to you, so my question is this: Why are you coaching her here?

Well, when GM made her comment that if you think posting VC's counts as posting and she was right. I wasn't directly looking at the content of her posts, but the number of posts she made. I was aware that she was modding a large, but wasn't aware of her modding a micro.

That was mostly a reach out to GM. I wanted her to respond to me as town and if she was town to help herself rather than damage.

She was, but I was incorrect. Along with the pace of the wagon, some of my mild scum reads jumping on it and the incorrect direction of me thinking the posts in the micro were actual posts and not mod posts. I withdrew my vote.

[Malakittens]

Let's all lynch Hephestus. I feel pretty good about that right now.

Now, now let's not policy lynch, okay?

Let's all lynch Hephestus. I feel pretty good about that right now.

I want to agree with this. Heph is, at the very least, a liability to town later on. His lack of effort/contributions would be dangerous when we get down to the brass tacks.

That said, policy lynches based on playstyle suck because they're so likely to hit town. Lynching scum D1 would be nice for once.

This is what boils down to a comprised policy lynch. I agree that not having him in lylo is a priority, but I don't agree to the Day 1 policy lynch.

Anyways this post feels town~

Case on NPAU

Jumpy vote hopping (All of his votes so far have apparently been serious, as per (105)): (33) (105) (224) (320) (439)

Finds MS unlikely to be scum, (224) but, despite MS's playstyle not changing, he considers him scum by (521). Yet, he barely pushes at MS, which is a marked change from his other accusations. I also did not notice him voting MS. Considering how much his votes have jumped around, this is inconsistent, especially when he jumps onto GM in (634). After all, if he was changing his playstyle because it made him look scummy, he should have stopped vote-hopping by that time. (If he was town, stopping scummy behavior would have made sense. Even if it cast suspicion on him, it would ultimately make the game clearer for the town. Scum thrive in confusion.)

There's some scummy wording and opportunistic attacks in those posts, too.

I also find it interesting just how fast the NPAU wagon broke up and how fast the GM wagon grew at the same time. I'll go back and see where votes changed from one wagon to the other and check if my thoughts match up.

Jumpy vote hopping is not a scum tell. I have seen both vote-jumpy town and scum; so it's a null tell, imo.

[Malakittens]

So I really hate being on the fence about Huntress. Like I hate it literally.

Some of her posts have given me scum-gut feels (the whole Zeb thing, which I have already commented on), but then there is other posts by her that make her feel town. Such as the questioning which I have also pointed out because that does fit into her town meta. What I really don't like currently is how she hasn't made a comment on the BBT v I argument, which I expected town-Huntress to have taken a side. I have faced a few games where she has barely taken a stance on me besides knowing me for a while and probably having the vast meta to pretty much read-me-like-a-book. Although, I have also seen town her not make a read on me besides gut. My issue frankly is that she hasn't made one comment on my posting which makes me question whether or not she can't read me this game or she's trying to stay silent on it and sweep it under the rug. Either way it's been bothering me for a while so I was hoping that her current read through would give me a glimpse of her stance on BBT v I discussion.

I have a feeling that scum are trying to ignore the elephants in the room (BBT v I) because right now him and I are practically firing up at each other which is/can be a smokescreen for scum if it's used right.

I want to say Shin's 583 felt town because he took a stance on it. It gave me townvibes.

I'm fighting all urge to wagon BBT because I don't want to tunnel. I'm trying to get out of that very habit because it distracts me from things that need attention, but I'm just getting flashbacks from the newbie game, but I do need to set aside time and do a meta rundown on him because I have not been in contact with him being town besides the one game I replaced in while being scum and didn't read a whole lot of the game or if I did I skimmed through it.

Peabody's posts feel a hell of a lot different than our last completed game. I remember making a comment about how there was a lack of a vote by Peabody in that game, but the difference between that game and this game is that he has moved his vote around more than he did there.

Uct's posting HAS been bothering me. His read on both Heph and I through meta seems a bit like a defense. Although Uct can you give me a rundown on why you think Heph is acting towards his town meta rather than his scum meta while being useless?

I have gotten townvibes from Josh in the beginning of the game, but that has slowly faded and I'm more leaning towards scum. I don't like how he's trying to throw the word policy lynch down. I feel like he's more using his vote as a comprised vote rather than trying to hunt for actual scum. (Idk if that makes sense) Seems like he's trying to keep out of the spotlight and go for an easier target rather than using his vote and pushing someone harder.

I'm going to stop here for now and throw a vote on Josh because my computer is about to die and I'm too lazy to plug it in before it does so.

VOTE: Josh

[Shinobi]

I was gonna do stuff but I really can't be assed right now. I have been overcome with a horrifying case of lazy. Tomorrow I will be paying attention to this game for realsies.

[davesaz]

@ davesaz:

Hi! Why did you comment on 466 before NPAU had had a chance to answer it?

Because I saw something questionable and wanted to investigate it in the flow vs. trying to remember to investigate it later.

When I saw your post it looked to me like you were helping NPAU out by suggesting an answer to the question Shinobi asked him. If I had been in Shinobi's position there I would have been peeved and a bit suspicious that you intervened as it might have affected the read I would have been trying to get on NPAU. The question you raised could have been asked without referring to the post at all. But Shinobi doesn't appear bothered about it which makes me wonder why.

I was actually calling out Shinobi in that post, not defending NPAU. TBH I forgot that bait was in the water. I looked back and think that Shinobi never responded to my question. At this point I wonder if Shinobi scum could have been crumbing a defense to NPAU scum.

p-edit. Turns out my reply was incredibly timely.

[Peabody]

Peabody's posts feel a hell of a lot different than our last completed game. I remember making a comment about how there was a lack of a vote by Peabody in that game, but the difference between that game and this game is that he has moved his vote around more than he did there.

I just want to make a quick comment on this. You replaced in on day 2 or 3 on the one game we played together. I certainly am slow to vote, however, in the game you are basing your meta upon, keep these things in mind:

1) The players commented on the coloring of the mod's PMs when the mod hadn't yet posted sample pms in the OP. This made me nail at least two town members in an instant as town.
2) My posting may have felt like tunneling to you since you were scum (and thus more likely to give my posts against you more weight).
3) I had town read most of the player list. My votes, therefore, were statistically most likely to be scum. I felt really, really comfortable about my scum read on you based on PoE.

You have one sample of me. If you want to see more of my play, you may search on the wiki for my screenname. I list every game that I have record of being in. Additionally, I post comments on the ones that I felt like posting comments.

You may see how I think by reading these notes on each game. That will help you read my meta.

I do feel that the game you are meta'ing me off of was a game that was of different substance. So many things felt certain to me because of the PM references throughout the game.

[Peabody]

Also, we have 28 pages, and I have two votes. Two.

So, I'm slow to vote in this game too. Just saying...

[Metal Sonic]

EFFORT IS NOT AND HAS NEVER BEEN INDICATIVE OF ALIGNMENT

my scumread on hephaestus is mainly based on him being 100% useless.

You're a funny gal

This is a post that makes my feet much warmer about lynching good morning

[goodmorning]

@MS & Mala

- Which one of 637, 639 and 640 made you suddenly feel like GM wasn't scum anymore?

MS, you have been pushing for a GM lynch pretty much all day, it's within your grasp, and you unvote? What is that about? Did somebody say earlier that GM/MS was a possible scum-team? I could see that.

Mala was second on the wagon as well and then she suddenly jumps off with no explanation. A bus gone wrong?

@GM

- What do you make of MS and Mala's actions?

To be honest I don't really know.
I've had my thoughts on the indicativeness of votes/unvotes shaken a bit recently.

This is a good enough post to make Scripten town if NPAU was lynched and flipped scum today.

Scripten is already Town, did you miss the memo?

EFFORT IS NOT AND HAS NEVER BEEN INDICATIVE OF ALIGNMENT

my scumread on hephaestus is mainly based on him being 100% useless.

You're a funny gal

When we talk about effort, we talk about frequency of posting and numbers/lengths of posts. Anything related to those is non-indicative.

When we talk about someone not contributing any content, that's scummy.

I'd like to see more from her, and this might be unfair, but it feels to me when I consider GM in this game, that she's in a constant state of not being current in the thread.

Nah, I'd call that fair. The worst should be over though.

[Josh_B]

I have gotten townvibes from Josh in the beginning of the game, but that has slowly faded and I'm more leaning towards scum. I don't like how he's trying to throw the word policy lynch down. I feel like he's more using his vote as a comprised vote rather than trying to hunt for actual scum. (Idk if that makes sense) Seems like he's trying to keep out of the spotlight and go for an easier target rather than using his vote and pushing someone harder.

I'm going to stop here for now and throw a vote on Josh because my computer is about to die and I'm too lazy to plug it in before it does so.

VOTE: Josh

Yay! I'm scum for not being in the spotlight.
This is the first time that's ever been someone's reason to vote me.

Mala is now voting people in her town pile. WOOT! and OMGUS.
I haven't said anything about a policy lynch since I joined in and half the players were MIA.(Is that the time when I was or wasn't liked?)
But to just think. I was going to make a comment on how horribly town I was. I think just as many people were reading me as town as they were reading NPAU as scum.
Now I want to lynch hephastus even more, but as a compromise Mala is of serious consideration.

I've never seen town Mala so quick to unvote. When talking about how quickly the GM wagon dissipated, I don't think I need to remind anyone that she was part of the dissipation.

[Malakittens]

I didn't say you were town now had you actually read further than just was getting town vibes.

Town mala is quick to unvote. Just never in a game together, granted we were in a full one and a half of one before you replaced out in both. So unless you did major meta research you haven't seen a scum Mala so how do you know how'd I act I was scum without knowing first hand my meta. I think you are trying to soft sling mud without backing yourself up~

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I also find it interesting just how fast the NPAU wagon broke up and how fast the GM wagon grew at the same time. I'll go back and see where votes changed from one wagon to the other and check if my thoughts match up.

What did you find out?

this is a fine counterwagon.

Vote: NPAU

Does this mean you're town-reading GM?

So I really hate being on the fence about Huntress. Like I hate it literally.

Some of her posts have given me scum-gut feels (the whole Zeb thing, which I have already commented on), but then there is other posts by her that make her feel town. Such as the questioning which I have also pointed out because that does fit into her town meta. What I really don't like currently is how she hasn't made a comment on the BBT v I argument, which I expected town-Huntress to have taken a side. I have faced a few games where she has barely taken a stance on me besides knowing me for a while and probably having the vast meta to pretty much read-me-like-a-book. Although, I have also seen town her not make a read on me besides gut. My issue frankly is that she hasn't made one comment on my posting which makes me question whether or not she can't read me this game or she's trying to stay silent on it and sweep it under the rug. Either way it's been bothering me for a while so I was hoping that her current read through would give me a glimpse of her stance on BBT v I discussion.

That's a lot of wording to say you're null-reading Huntress.

I'm OK with lynching Mala > NPAU > GM today.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm going to ISO and re-read those 3 and make a final decision on who I want to lynch today.

[Malakittens]

Yes well you wanted a reads post, but instead you got a 'my computer is about to die stream of conscious post' that I wanted out to say how I feel about certain players.

Huntress and I know each other before this site so her not commenting on our interactions is pretty daming. There's things I want her to address in it also so it's not all irrevelant.

Also you aren't lynchin me so gl trying <3

[BlueBloodedToffee]

OK.

Mala, this whole game you have been very 'could be town, could be scum' with your reads. Like, from the very beginning.

Can I get a solid reads-list of you please. I don't want to see the words scum

and

town in the same read on one person. I want you to state scum

or

town, it can be mega-town, leaning-town, strong-town, slightly town, towniest player I have ever played with and the same descriptions can be used for scum.

But not both town

and

scum.

So, nothing like this;

I mean part of me thinks you

might be town for backing off

, but other part thinks you

are scum realizing that my lynch might not happen as opportunistic as you would have liked

it too and moved to someone who can

Or this;

This might not be true. She

might not be town

, but I'm not sold on

her being scum either

Or this;

The one thing solid I can say about GM that I do not like is her over-defensiveness with Sonic. Although our last completed game together she wasn't so defensive, but then I just checked a completed scum game too and she wasn't there either.

You stated way back in 160 that you were trying to gain reads on the people you play most with (GM & HS). Yet, to date, you still have no idea on either of them. You followed up in 333 saying your reads will become clearer as the game progresses. I fail to see this progression and development of reads.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Can you also explain why your town-read on Josh has changed to a scum-read?

You gave this as your reasoning;

I have gotten townvibes from Josh in the beginning of the game, but that has slowly faded and I'm more leaning towards scum. I don't like how he's trying to throw the word policy lynch down. I feel like he's more using his vote as a comprised vote rather than trying to hunt for actual scum. (Idk if that makes sense) Seems like he's trying to keep out of the spotlight and go for an easier target rather than using his vote and pushing someone harder.

I'm going to stop here for now and throw a vote on Josh because my computer is about to die and I'm too lazy to plug it in before it does so.

VOTE: Josh

However, you have been accusing Josh of trying to policy people since 160, why is this suddenly a reason to vote him now? Especially since you were town-reading him as recently as 617. Not town-vibes, town-reading.

It's funny that I accuse you of using language such as 'vibes', 'gut', 'feeling' so that you can reverse your reads whenever you feel like it and then you follow up and do exactly that.

PEdit - That wasn't a reads-list. It was a whole lot of fluff. This post should clarify my stance for you.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

BBT vs Mala late exchanges looks better for Mala I think. It's clear that Mala's too much use of meta in this game looks suspect, but BBT is freakishly tunneling.

You think I'm tunneling? ISO me, if you still think I am tunneling, I will prove you wrong.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Actually, it's kind of funny that you would accuse me of tunneling NPAU.

Looking through your ISO, the only thing that stands out is your tunneling of GM since your very first post when you voted her to L-3.

Your vote on Huntress in 224 looks weird. You state you were voting Huntress, as opposed to myself or GM who you was scum-reading at the time, so you could 'get something from the day'. Then, with no further interactions between yourself and Huntress, you unvote and vote GM (despite providing a case on me in 320). What exactly was the point of your Huntress vote?

That's pretty much your entire contribution for the day.

I would like you lynched. Mala is still preferred though I think.

[Malakittens]

No because my reads are still in the stage that I call 'waffle' stage. Which is how I do sort my reads out. Exactly how I'm doing right now. If you try to get me to put someone in anorher category I can't promise you after a few posts it will still be in that same one and then you can use the reads list you forced me to post into me being scummy.

Also I was waiting for huntress to comment on us. That's what I was waiting on because she tends to ignore me as scum and interact very little so I was waiting for a reach out from her.

If you look at my posts to Josh you can see that I was never okay with his whole policy lynching. Just ISO go ISO me on that one.

Ok you can I have totally different game styles. Doesn't matter any games that we play we are always going to fight so I'm just gonna probably avoid you. Not because I don't like you or anything, but we conflict which would be a major problem in any game we play especially if we were to be the same alignment.

I need to go to work now.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

To be honest I don't really know.
I've had my thoughts on the indicativeness of votes/unvotes shaken a bit recently.

Can you do any better than this?

Your ISO really doesn't read much better than NPAU's, if at all. Like, there is nothing I can pick out as alignment indicative and it makes me want to think that's done intentionally and it makes me think you're scum.

Can you explain your town-read on Mala please?

VOTE: Mala

[BlueBloodedToffee]

No because my reads are still in the stage that I call 'waffle' stage. Which is how I do sort my reads out. Exactly how I'm doing right now. If you try to get me to put someone in anorher category I can't promise you after a few posts it will still be in that same one and then you can use the reads list you forced me to post into me being scummy.

Also I was waiting for huntress to comment on us. That's what I was waiting on because she tends to ignore me as scum and interact very little so I was waiting for a reach out from her.

If you look at my posts to Josh you can see that I was never okay with his whole policy lynching. Just ISO go ISO me on that one.

But you said that you should be able to read Huntress and GM due to how much you have played with them. We're nearly 30 pages in and you're null on both of them...how do you think that looks?

I agreed you did not like Josh's policy lynching, in fact, I outright stated it. What I asked was; why are you voting him now for it and not way back at 160 when you complained about it?

You still didn't explain how your town-read on Josh changed to a scum-read, can you do that please?

[goodmorning]

To be honest I don't really know.
I've had my thoughts on the indicativeness of votes/unvotes shaken a bit recently.

Can you do any better than this?

If I could I would have.

Can you explain your town-read on Mala please?

Sure.

For a start, her first post reflects a lot of the same thoughts I'd been having up to that point, though I was pretty vocal about them.
The questions she's asked have been fairly on point.
The way she's engaging with the game is not the same as the way she engages as Scum. No, this is not a thing that's easy to fake.
She's visibly reassessed several times.
(Plus she could probably have pushed a lynch through on me without taking too much flak.)

[BlueBloodedToffee]

For a start, her first post reflects a lot of the same thoughts I'd been having up to that point, though I was pretty vocal about them.
The questions she's asked have been fairly on point.
The way she's engaging with the game is not the same as the way she engages as Scum. No, this is not a thing that's easy to fake.
She's visibly reassessed several times.
(Plus she could probably have pushed a lynch through on me without taking too much flak.)

Sheeping you doesn't make her town.

Can you provide me some examples of her on point questioning.

Disregarding meta-read.

Who has she reassessed and how is this alignment indicative?

[Scripten]

-snip-
I'm not really happy with these answers and it's something I may come back to at a later point. Given you're pushing a lynch I would also like to see, I'm going to leave it be for now.

Since you're not on the NPAU wagon any more, can you cover this, BBT? I want to know why you're troubled by my read shift on Zebulin's slot, especially now that I'm reading uctriton00 as pretty town.

As for the wagon analysis:

Metal Sonic, BlueBloodedToffee, and Hephaestus are on the wagon with me up until (577). BBT changes his vote, and MS immediately follows. (620), roughly a page later, has Heph chasing them with nothing but an image macro for reasoning. (Seriously, Heph, if you're town, your play is -terrible-.)

There's nothing but really basic reasoning behind jumping ship, even though NPAU hadn't said a thing. Now uctriton00 and huntress are on the wagon, with the prior NPAU wagon (excluding myself) on GM.

Actually, it's kind of interesting that the mod had posted a vote count right before the wagon all but dissolved.