Phoebus wrote:Vote count:
1 Battle Mage (theopor_COD)
1 DrippingGoofball (Akbar)
4 Raffles (Fuldu, Kison, Mastermind of Sin, Mr. Flay)
1 XReyoX (Battle Mage)
Not voting: 12
10 to lynch
Mafia v. Wolves Redux: Finally Over!
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Phoebus Hall Monitor
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XReyoX Goon
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I was trying to point out that scum do not always know much more than town. Especially in this game. The 2 groups doesn't know each other. They know the other people who are in their team but the rest could be towns, could be scums.Mastermind of Sin wrote:I don't know, I didn't say I agreed with his statement. I was just pointing out that, yes, scum DO know more than protown players, in general.-
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Kison .GIFted
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Raffles' story does not match up.
This is equivilent to Monday, April 9th - 12:00 noon EDT(all time stamps from here on out are EDT).Phoebus wrote:Deadline 1: Monday the 9th - 1700 GMT
Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 1:39 pmRaffles wrote:I'm not there to place the hammer when the deadline comes I'm afraid, someone else needs to do that.
Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 9:23 pmIH wrote:Vote:OTU
Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 10:01 pmKison wrote:That's a hammer, IH.
After this has been announced, and BEFORE the deadline even actually hit, who shows up when they said they wouldn't?
Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 5:06 pmRaffles wrote:Okay I'm going to have a restricted access starting immediate until 16th. I may or may not be able to post once a day. I hope you don't find a need to replace me.
I find the above scenario possible in that Raffles may have known ahead of time that he wouldn't be there on the 9th, but that he would be there on the 8th. Seems a bit fishy to me, nontheless.
Secondly, I seem to recall Phoebus stating that we only neededhalfthe majority in order to lynch OTU. We had well over that number when Raffles made these posts, so I'm not really sure why he wanted someone else to do the deed when it would have been nearly inevitable anyway.-
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Mr. Flay Metatron
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Some of us aer arguing that Raffles is the ESE Cult Leader. A Cult Leader is a particularly valuable role to his faction, because without his recruiting ability, the Cult has almost no chance of winning (they end up like an anti-town Mason group/SK with no Night Kill). So if Raffles thought his voting for OTU (who he knew was not in his Cult, and on D1 most likely a town mislynch) would draw fire tomorrow, he may have tried to back off.XReyoX wrote:
I was trying to point out that scum do not always know much more than town. Especially in this game. The 2 groups doesn't know each other. They know the other people who are in their team but the rest could be towns, could be scums.Mastermind of Sin wrote:I don't know, I didn't say I agreed with his statement. I was just pointing out that, yes, scum DO know more than protown players, in general.
And Raffles: No worries, I'm only staking my lifein this game, not my entire career *cough*LoudmouthLee*cough*.Retired as of October 2014.-
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XReyoX Goon
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XReyoX Goon
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@Flay. I think that backing off at that time would draw much fire than not, and it does. So i believe that if he is the leader, he would not have jumped off at that point just to be safe. quite a few people, e.g scarecrow, DGB hasn't provided good reasons, so surely, if he is on the wagon, the ones getting fired upon would be those people before him.
Also, if he know that OTU is a town lynch, he wouldn't have joined in the first place.-
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XReyoX Goon
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Just another thought. A cult wouldn't want to lynch the town because it means they would have less chance to win because a) fewer people to recruit, b) more chance for the leader to hit a scum and die). However, al4 looks quite opportunistic to lynch OTU. This doesn't agree with the theory that al4 is a cult.
I'm not sure if this is right.-
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
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@Kison- I was going to London on monday morning to see my mates, being away for a week. I'm on BST.
As for second point, I think I had that confused with Mr. Flay's sytem.
I'm thinking I'm drawing most of the fire from MoS. Which is disconcerting. MoS compared to rest is like standing in Sommes with a party hat to walking the Oxford St. Not too sure what to make of this just yet.Woof!-
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TBuG they/themI winthey/them
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Mastermind of Sin Cassandra Complex
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I was busy with RL and inactive at the time, in nearly all my games. I could barely keep up with the thread, much less point out everything and explain it for you.Raffles wrote:
But you see - I'm not even going to pretend I knew this. I didn't. So this factor was not in my calculation. And even then, why? If someone gave me this as a reason for lynching a newb scum, I would never go with it.Mastermind of Sin wrote: Newbie players are quite likely to give up as scum and stop posting under pressure. Happens all the time.
And why didn't you mention it on D1, if this was a tell?
By "little evidence", I was referring to the fact that it was Day 1, and there is rarely much evidence to lynch someone. However, the evidence against him was better than anything else I had seen presented, and I didn't see anyone else scummier at the time.
So why did such a little evidence gather so many votes? Make up your mind, was he very scummy? Or not very? And if the latter, why did you not try to dissuade others from the deadline before it was in place?MoS wrote:His actions before he disappeared are what made him seem more like newbie scum than newbie town. Everything pointedin favorof him being scum, with what little evidence there was.
stalling votes != protown player. What could possibly convince you that stalling votes means he's protown? The uninformed majority suddenly gets told that he's not scum? Or did the informed minority (scum) suddenly decide that they didn't want to lynch a protown player?
There was for me and that was stalling votes. We must have completed this cycle a few times now.MoS wrote: We could not besurethat he was scum, but there was no reason to suddenly get a "feeling" that he was protown.Permanent V/LA.-
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Mastermind of Sin Cassandra Complex
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That's a valid strategy later in the game, but not as important early in the game. Also, it would require al4 to be experienced enough to think of something like that. I've never heard of the guy before, so I don't think he's that experienced. I wouldn't bet on him having thought about it.XReyoX wrote:Just another thought. A cult wouldn't want to lynch the town because it means they would have less chance to win because a) fewer people to recruit, b) more chance for the leader to hit a scum and die). However, al4 looks quite opportunistic to lynch OTU. This doesn't agree with the theory that al4 is a cult.
I'm not sure if this is right.Permanent V/LA.-
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Zindaras Mr(s) Popularity
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Colour coding is most definitely an important part of a game where we know we have multiple scumgroups. An important way to catch scum is to look at links between players, but that way, we can only catch scum in the same scumgroup, not in any other scumgroup.Mastermind of Sin wrote:what is with you and your obssession of colors? Color codingrarelyhas any significance to the game, other than a convenient distinction between protown and antitown. Without further evidence, the color coding means nothing to us, except that we know he was scum.ShowFinished: 159 (120 Town, 33 Mafia, 5 Other, 1 Cult, 4 Cultivated)
68 Wins, 71 Losses
Town: 52 Wins, 54 Losses (2 Wins as Cult)
Mafia: 13 Wins, 15 Losses (1 Win as Cult)
Other: 3 Wins, 1 Loss (1 Win as Cult)
Cult: 0 Wins, 1 Loss
Cultivated: 4 Wins, 0 Losses
59 Survived, 31 Lynched, 60 Killed-
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
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Unanswered question bolded.Mastermind of Sin wrote:
*snip*Raffles wrote:
But you see - I'm not even going to pretend I knew this. I didn't. So this factor was not in my calculation.Mastermind of Sin wrote: Newbie players are quite likely to give up as scum and stop posting under pressure. Happens all the time.And even then, why?If someone gave me this as a reason for lynching a newb scum, I would never go with it.*snip*
Actually there were few other very decent alternatives, including me. Except you've seem to have lost steam in pursuing me for reasons unfounded. And I think Akbar mentioned something about kison + remus. So I call bullshit on that. This put together with your policy of lynching rather than replace those who lost interest in the game, I find inconsistency.MoS wrote: By "little evidence", I was referring to the fact that it was Day 1, and there is rarely much evidence to lynch someone. However, the evidence against him was better than anything else I had seen presented, and I didn't see anyone else scummier at the time.
In reverse chronogical order:MoS wrote: stalling votes != protown player. What could possibly convince you that stalling votes means he's protown? The uninformed majority suddenly gets told that he's not scum? Or did the informed minority (scum) suddenly decide that they didn't want to lynch a protown player?Raffles wrote:Well wouldn't you think that if there really was a convincing case against him, he would have been lynched already, no? I looked back andwhilst there was no convincing case that he is a town, there was not very much for scum either.I decided at the time that he didn't warrant a lynch. Hence I unvoted. We lynched more because of the deadline rather than a case against him. Don't kid yourself of that.Raffles wrote:OTU on verge of lynch for very long time.
Maybe he is not worth the lynch?
When did IRaffles wrote:I unvoted because of the following:
He was teeteering on lynch -2/1 for a very long time.
----> A sign that he was not worth the lynch?
----------> If he is not worth the lynch, why do I still have my vote on him?
He was disinterested in the game even near the lynch.
----> Cannot be bothered to stay in game? A boring role maybe?
All these gives me a bad gut feeling that OTU is a townie about to be lynched.
So I investigate further...
True there wasn't much to suggest he was a town in his post. But then there wasn't much to suggest he is a scum from his post, apart from his opportunistic vote.
----> Not particularly a strong reason as I first thought it might be.
--------> Then I shouldn't have my vote on him. Unvoteeversay "I am convinced that OTU is town"? Look at the first quote. You aren't even bothering to twist my words anymore, you are stating the opposite to suit your argument.Vote: MoS. Either that or someone is having a reading retention problems. Ironic.
Because if there is some consistency for colour coding, then it would shed us light on what ESE could be. There’s consistent colour coding for scum, for townie, why shouldn’t there be one for the cult?MoS wrote: what is with you and your obssession of colors? Color coding rarely has any significance to the game, other than a convenient distinction between protown and antitown. Without further evidence, the color coding means nothing to us, except that we know he was scum.
Raffles wrote:
Wrong. See Mafia vs. Wolves Redux. N1. You lose.Mos wrote:Actually, a stalling wagon is usually the sign of a scumbuddy that their partners don't want to throw under the bus, so assuming that lack of lynch = town was either bad reasoning on your part, or a bad attempt to deceive us by making shit up to cover your tracks.
It was not a bad reasoning, it was a good gut. And what's all this about making shit up to cover my tracks? You are leaving me confused in wake here.
I'm thinking this is where the jumped conclusion (or so it appears to me) that I'm an ESE member. But I'm not getting how it works. Shed any light please?
Unanswered question bolded.Raffles wrote:You still have to explain to me your warped theory.Woof!-
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XReyoX Goon
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This is my first game and I've thought about it. you can't assume something is not true because it doesn't suit your "ese is cult" theory. I think wether he notice this if he is a cult would be equally likely. That's why i don't like ese is a cult at the moment.Mastermind of Sin wrote:That's a valid strategy later in the game, but not as important early in the game. Also, it would require al4 to be experienced enough to think of something like that. I've never heard of the guy before, so I don't think he's that experienced. I wouldn't bet on him having thought about it.-
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XReyoX Goon
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Mastermind of Sin Cassandra Complex
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Mastermind of Sin Cassandra Complex
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If I knew why this happened, I would have a Professor Mafia award for writing some sort of dissertation on why newbies do what they do. I just know that it's a common pattern to look for in newbies. Having not done something like that before myself, I wouldn't know why they do it. Perhaps they just can't think of anything good to say to defend themselves.Raffles wrote:
Unanswered question bolded.Mastermind of Sin wrote:
*snip*Raffles wrote:
But you see - I'm not even going to pretend I knew this. I didn't. So this factor was not in my calculation.Mastermind of Sin wrote: Newbie players are quite likely to give up as scum and stop posting under pressure. Happens all the time.And even then, why?If someone gave me this as a reason for lynching a newb scum, I would never go with it.*snip*
Lost steam? Wtf?
Actually there were few other very decent alternatives, including me. Except you've seem to have lost steam in pursuing me for reasons unfounded. And I think Akbar mentioned something about kison + remus. So I call bullshit on that. This put together with your policy of lynching rather than replace those who lost interest in the game, I find inconsistency.MoS wrote: By "little evidence", I was referring to the fact that it was Day 1, and there is rarely much evidence to lynch someone. However, the evidence against him was better than anything else I had seen presented, and I didn't see anyone else scummier at the time.
I don't have a policy of lynching rather than replacing those who disappear. However, the last part of the day was during a busy time in RL, and I was barely around in the thread. I knew he was lurking somewhat, but the last time I'd been truly active in the thread he was at least posting every once in a while, so I couldn't ask for his replacement.
And if he was protown, why had he not been lynched yet? No one was speaking out
In reverse chronogical order:MoS wrote: stalling votes != protown player. What could possibly convince you that stalling votes means he's protown? The uninformed majority suddenly gets told that he's not scum? Or did the informed minority (scum) suddenly decide that they didn't want to lynch a protown player?Raffles wrote:Well wouldn't you think that if there really was a convincing case against him, he would have been lynched already, no? I looked back andwhilst there was no convincing case that he is a town, there was not very much for scum either.I decided at the time that he didn't warrant a lynch. Hence I unvoted. We lynched more because of the deadline rather than a case against him. Don't kid yourself of that.againstthe lynch (at least not as far as I noticed), so why didn't the scum just off him?
Now you're just twistingRaffles wrote:OTU on verge of lynch for very long time.
Maybe he is not worth the lynch?
When did IRaffles wrote:I unvoted because of the following:
He was teeteering on lynch -2/1 for a very long time.
----> A sign that he was not worth the lynch?
----------> If he is not worth the lynch, why do I still have my vote on him?
He was disinterested in the game even near the lynch.
----> Cannot be bothered to stay in game? A boring role maybe?
All these gives me a bad gut feeling that OTU is a townie about to be lynched.
So I investigate further...
True there wasn't much to suggest he was a town in his post. But then there wasn't much to suggest he is a scum from his post, apart from his opportunistic vote.
----> Not particularly a strong reason as I first thought it might be.
--------> Then I shouldn't have my vote on him. Unvoteeversay "I am convinced that OTU is town"? Look at the first quote. You aren't even bothering to twist my words anymore, you are stating the opposite to suit your argument.Vote: MoS. Either that or someone is having a reading retention problems. Ironic.mywords, hypocrit. I'm really tired of your semantic games, they aren't getting us anywhere. Whether or not you thought he was protown or just thought he wasn't scum, that doesn't matter. What does matter is that you are claiming that the circumstances surrounding his wagon convinced you that he wasnota good lynch for the day, when by most logic it should've done the opposite. I'm not buying it.
Because if there is some consistency for colour coding, then it would shed us light on what ESE could be. There’s consistent colour coding for scum, for townie, why shouldn’t there be one for the cult?MoS wrote: what is with you and your obssession of colors? Color coding rarely has any significance to the game, other than a convenient distinction between protown and antitown. Without further evidence, the color coding means nothing to us, except that we know he was scum.
And how do you expect to find out if there is a color coding consistency until more than one scum is dead? Something like that has no bearing on today, because we don't have enough information to make a reasonable assumption based on coloring. There is no good reason for you to have been that concerned about color right now.
What? How do your actions on day 1 have any basis in my theory that you are an ESE member? Your day 1 actions merely strength my suspicion that you are scum. Your repeated denial of any possiblity of there being a cult is what makes me think you are an ESE member. This has been said multiple times before, so you should start paying more attention, please.Raffles wrote:
Wrong. See Mafia vs. Wolves Redux. N1. You lose.Mos wrote:Actually, a stalling wagon is usually the sign of a scumbuddy that their partners don't want to throw under the bus, so assuming that lack of lynch = town was either bad reasoning on your part, or a bad attempt to deceive us by making shit up to cover your tracks.
It was not a bad reasoning, it was a good gut. And what's all this about making shit up to cover my tracks? You are leaving me confused in wake here.
I'm thinking this is where the jumped conclusion (or so it appears to me) that I'm an ESE member. But I'm not getting how it works. Shed any light please?
Unanswered question bolded.Raffles wrote:You still have to explain to me your warped theory.Permanent V/LA.-
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
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Mastermind of Sin Cassandra Complex
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The town as a whole is still a thread to the cult. The scum kills townies for them at night. Since the cult is usually the smallest group to start with, they have the least chance of getting hit by a nightkill. Therefore, near the beginning of the game, it's nice to keep some scum around to nightkill townies and power roles. Otherwise, the scum die off too early and the town realizes there is a cult and starts searching for them. One of the main advantages of a cult is the element of surprise, although it looks like you lost it this game.Permanent V/LA.-
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Raffles Mafia Zcum
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So there is no reasonable explanation - then I hope you don't take it hard on yourself when I say I don't buy it.Mastermind of Sin wrote:*snip-snip*
If I knew why this happened, I would have a Professor Mafia award for writing some sort of dissertation on why newbies do what they do. I just know that it's a common pattern to look for in newbies. Having not done something like that before myself, I wouldn't know why they do it. Perhaps they just can't think of anything good to say to defend themselves.
(BTW the suggestion you given there is crap - a scum, newbie or not, it doesn't hurt for them to try if their life is on the line)
That was miswording on my part - sorry about that. It is meant to read "you have a policy of replacing those lost interest rather than lynching". Still you had the opportunity to ask replace when he dissapeared after repeated requests for a claim. Why did you go for OTU rather than active targets, like me?MoS wrote:Lost steam? Wtf?
I don't have a policy of lynching rather than replacing those who disappear. However, the last part of the day was during a busy time in RL, and I was barely around in the thread. I knew he was lurking somewhat, but the last time I'd been truly active in the thread he was at least posting every once in a while, so I couldn't ask for his replacement.
I'm not sure I understand. Without evidence, sounds like you are firing blank rounds.MoS wrote:*snippy-di-snip*
Now you're just twistingmywords, hypocrit. I'm really tired of your semantic games, they aren't getting us anywhere.
That makes the two of us then (referring to the beginning).MoS wrote: Whether or not you thought he was protown or just thought he wasn't scum, that doesn't matter. What does matter is that you are claiming that the circumstances surrounding his wagon convinced you that he wasnota good lynch for the day, when by most logic it should've done the opposite. I'm not buying it.
Okay... what are you suggesting? Let's see... the red colour might be a mason? Oh and let's make the scum blue. And werewolves green. In fact, why not make the protagonist group red? (Except I know this doesn't work because OTU was black). So could red be something neutral? I can go on forever making stuff up with colours if there are 0 conformity.MoS wrote: And how do you expect to find out if there is a color coding consistency until more than one scum is dead? Something like that has no bearing on today, because we don't have enough information to make a reasonable assumption based on coloring. There is no good reason for you to have been that concerned about color right now.
So which one am I? Cult? Scum? Which do you think is ESE? You know it's kinda hard to defend myself when I don't know what I am being accused for.MoS wrote: What? How do your actions on day 1 have any basis in my theory that you are an ESE member? Your day 1 actions merely strength my suspicion that you are scum. Your repeated denial of any possiblity of there being a cult is what makes me think you are an ESE member. This has been said multiple times before, so you should start paying more attention, please.Woof!-
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Fuldu Mafia Scum
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spectrumvoid Problem Child
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DrippingGoofball Mafia Piñata
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Flay is definitely on to something with Raffles, very very clever, but somehow, Rafffles' defense sounds sincere. I am inclined to believe him at the moment, but I will keep a close look at him for the remainder of the game, because Flay's argument is a good one, and cannot be easily dismissed in my mind.
I am getting an increasing amount of townie vibes from XReyoX, and I feel this should be obvious to most people, therefore, MoS's hounding of XReyoX I bothering me. MoS is also hounding Raffles, but Flay has a good case against Raffles, so this strikes me as rather opportunistic. Since XReyoX was under some danger yesterday, I have to conclude that MoS is being opportunistic in his pursuance of both XReyoX and Raffles, though Raffles might be scum (perhaps the other scumgroup?).
For his opportunism in going after these two particular players, I...
vote: Mastermind of SinParaphrasing a role PM takes seconds, fabricating a good fakeclaim takes an eternity.
"Metadiving DGB is like playing Roblox" - T3
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Mastermind of Sin Cassandra Complex
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WTF, DGB? How am I "hounding" XReyoX? I haven't even said that I think he's scummy! In fact, Reyo and I have been having a rather mild conversation, so I'm having trouble seeing how you think I'm going after him...I'd like you to try and explain that to me, please.
Also, why am I suddenly scummy just because I was away when the game restarted after the crash? That's pretty much what you are suggesting, DGB, since the only reason this is "Flay's argument" is that he got to it first. I've done more than my share in providing my own reasoning, so it's not like I'm just jumping on the bandwagon. I think you need to reevaluate your logic there, DGB.Permanent V/LA.-
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Mastermind of Sin Cassandra Complex
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Of course it doesn't hurt for them to try if their life is on the line. I know that, you know that. That's because we actually know what we are doing. However, I have seen people literally say that they can't think of any way to defend themselves when they get attacked, so they just go for the turtle-shell approach and hope it'll go away. Obviously, it's not a good strategy. That's why only the newbies actually use it, because they haven't realized what to do, yet.Raffles wrote:
So there is no reasonable explanation - then I hope you don't take it hard on yourself when I say I don't buy it.Mastermind of Sin wrote:*snip-snip*
If I knew why this happened, I would have a Professor Mafia award for writing some sort of dissertation on why newbies do what they do. I just know that it's a common pattern to look for in newbies. Having not done something like that before myself, I wouldn't know why they do it. Perhaps they just can't think of anything good to say to defend themselves.
(BTW the suggestion you given there is crap - a scum, newbie or not, it doesn't hurt for them to try if their life is on the line)
Were you scummy for most of Day 1? That seems to be what you're implying. It's not about going after an active/inactive target. I don't factor activity into deciding whether or not to go after someone. If they seem scummy, I'll go after them. OTU seemed scummy, and his lurking reinforced this. I saw no one as a better choice for Day 1.
That was miswording on my part - sorry about that. It is meant to read "you have a policy of replacing those lost interest rather than lynching". Still you had the opportunity to ask replace when he dissapeared after repeated requests for a claim. Why did you go for OTU rather than active targets, like me?MoS wrote:Lost steam? Wtf?
I don't have a policy of lynching rather than replacing those who disappear. However, the last part of the day was during a busy time in RL, and I was barely around in the thread. I knew he was lurking somewhat, but the last time I'd been truly active in the thread he was at least posting every once in a while, so I couldn't ask for his replacement.
You didn't read far enough. In fact, if you look just a few centimeters down, you'll find that you quoted the "evidence" you're asking me for. Fancy that, I actually explained myself in the same post that I made a statement? Who would've thought?
I'm not sure I understand. Without evidence, sounds like you are firing blank rounds.MoS wrote:*snippy-di-snip*
Now you're just twistingmywords, hypocrit. I'm really tired of your semantic games, they aren't getting us anywhere.
Are you
That makes the two of us then (referring to the beginning).MoS wrote: Whether or not you thought he was protown or just thought he wasn't scum, that doesn't matter. What does matter is that you are claiming that the circumstances surrounding his wagon convinced you that he wasnota good lynch for the day, when by most logic it should've done the opposite. I'm not buying it.
Okay... what are you suggesting? Let's see... the red colour might be a mason? Oh and let's make the scum blue. And werewolves green. In fact, why not make the protagonist group red? (Except I know this doesn't work because OTU was black). So could red be something neutral? I can go on forever making stuff up with colours if there are 0 conformity.MoS wrote: And how do you expect to find out if there is a color coding consistency until more than one scum is dead? Something like that has no bearing on today, because we don't have enough information to make a reasonable assumption based on coloring. There is no good reason for you to have been that concerned about color right now.tryingto make it look like you have an IQ of 50, or is it natural?
Wow, you sure are thickheaded. How many repititions does it take to get it through your head that Cult = scum? Scum != mafia in particular. Scum is a generic word for any antitown role. Hence, calling you scum meant that the evidence pointed to you being antitown. Calling you Cult means that further evidence has narrowed you down to not only being scum, but being cult, specifically.
So which one am I? Cult? Scum? Which do you think is ESE? You know it's kinda hard to defend myself when I don't know what I am being accused for.MoS wrote: What? How do your actions on day 1 have any basis in my theory that you are an ESE member? Your day 1 actions merely strength my suspicion that you are scum. Your repeated denial of any possiblity of there being a cult is what makes me think you are an ESE member. This has been said multiple times before, so you should start paying more attention, please.Permanent V/LA.
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