Mini #406, Animaniacs! Water Tower Explosion! [Over]

[Foolster41]

Sorry, I didn't realize it was day already. I'm not going to ranodm vote this time. I've become cynical of it's uses over the time I've played mafia.

[Foolster41]

Sorry, I guess I apollogize too much. There i g again

[Foolster41]

Wow. hating on not random voting? There has been actually a long discussion on this not too long ago, and I beleive I am not the only person to be weary of random votes. this is he way of play nad is mearly a style. I admit I hate the begining of the first day too because getting peolpe is like pulling teeth.

For now I'm going to put a light non-random

vote: Sailor Jerry

I have a feeling he's just trying to move conversation along, but I am getting a very small scum vibe as well.

[Foolster41]

Er. Corrections in bold:
"this is the way

I

play"
"getting people

to talk

is like pulling teeth I mean. Sorry, I could have sworn I wrote that in.
Sorry.

[Foolster41]

And I never apollogized for not random voting, and I don't think I ever will. I was simply apollogizng for being late (Which Apartnly wasn't even true).

I'm perfefctly happy to contribute and discuss, I just don't think random votes are a good means of doing it.

[Foolster41]

(Well, one of those because of my bad habbit of not looking at what I wrote before hitting submit, but you're welcome. )

[Foolster41]

Fritzler, Not sure I exaclly understand your criteria for "Street cred"
I really don't think lynching newbies is the answer.

[Foolster41]

Wow. that was some bad logic there. Or were you kidding? the smile makes me think you were, but the FOS makes me think you arn't.

Personaly I do think that random votes help much. All they do is tend to pressure random people (Which statisticaly means most of the time pro-towns claiming) which is BAD for the town.I admit, it's not exactly game breaking, but I do think it gives a slight advantage to scum.

As for voting newbies. Being newbie is in no way connected with being scum, so I seriously hope you and fritz are kidding about that. True, if a newbie seems very scummy we're not going to NOT lynch him just because he's a newbie, but lynching a newbie right out of the gate seems nonsensical to me.

As for no lynch, I agree that 99.9999% of the time no lynch is a very bad idea. I don't think you're going to have any arguments with me for that.

Becuase I think that may have been a joke, I'm not going to even FOS, but I'm waiting for your responce.

[Foolster41]

Er, in the third paragram I meant to say we're not going to refrain from lynching him just because their newbies. Sorry for any confusion.

[Foolster41]

Yes, I did mean I don't think it would help. Sorry about that.

Please tell me how randomly killing newbies would help the town win, if statisticly newbies are more liekly to be pro-town than not. (About 4:1) If I misundserstood and this is not what mole meant, then I hope mole or fritz will explain.

As I said before, I don't think random votes are in pertocularly very harmful to the town (See my notes on that above), but I do think lynching newbies off is a very bad idea (if that's what mole/fritz were talking about, and it sounds like they were)

I think I will

unvote: SJ

for now. I'm going to wait a little longer to see how things go.

[Foolster41]

I was defending you? Sorry, but I honestly didn't even notice your posts since they arn't very serious. You havn't said anything really that is worth defending. The only stat I gave was 1:4 mafia/town ratio, which is the most widely accepted ratio for mafia games.

Maybe I am a kill joy, and perhaps I do take mafia a bit seriously, but I'm out to win, and I don't think the strategies put forth by fritzler/mole so far are helpful to a town win.

[Foolster41]

Fuldu: Did I? If so, sorry. I could have sworn it was 1:4.

SJ: that is a very good question.

I didn't mean to say that we shouldn't vote newbies, or anyone. voting by itself isn't all that dangeruos, but the term LYNCH was used, and that was what made me nervous. I think there has been a misunderstanding because of this.

[Foolster41]

Fuldu: I think scum:town is what I was thinking. I wasn't arguing the point, I was just surprised I got it wrong.

I admit I too am surprised by chamber's anouncement. If he has a reason to be absent, that is one thing, but this seems to be just asking to not participate for no reason. I'm very tempted to vote him, but I'm going to give him a shadow of a doubt and wait for him to respond.

[Foolster41]

VitimanR: That's pure WIFOM by the way. Not perticipating (without a good reason) is scummy.

And you're voting me because I'm opposed to random voting? I understand an FOS maybe (as other have done), but 1.) I think that's rather extreme 2.)It is obvious I'm, doing my best to participate in exchange for not random voting. 3.)I believe said it was more a personal taste (and never said that people should right not ohmygosh stop random voting

vote: chamber

[Foolster41]

Basicly, "I won't talk when I don't have anything to say?". That sounds reasonible enough to me, but if that's all, then there was no reason for this whole post in the first place that made me vote you. On the one hand, the point of my vote was acomplished. On the other hand, you make it sound like if I unvote you (reduce bandwagon threat) you will stop talking. for now I'm keeping my vote, just because I want the quiet people to keep talking.

[Foolster41]

I would like ot hear more from Blake Judge,since random voting me at the beginikng he hasn't said anything else. Coron has atleast posted since, so I'll

unvote vote: Blake Judge

[Foolster41]

NewYear: Would you please stop saying I'm defending you? It smells of Scumlinking.

Also, It seems I misunderstood a sarcastic remark about voting newbies which I took as a serious remark about lynching newbies. It was a misunderstanding which I apologized for in post #58. let's move on.

[Foolster41]

SJ:
Could you please tell me why you think I'm scum?
Also, considering how much I've been posting it seems alful crass to cite me not posting in TWO DAYS as a sign of me lurking and such.

MOD: votecount please

[Foolster41]

I did a quick count and I believe

vote: Salor jerry

makes it 4/7 on SJ.

[Foolster41]

Wow. That's got to hurt you skull having a weight dropped on it.

Fritz: That was all well and good lynching a mafia, but please don't hammer on someone who hasn't claimed yet.

I have to admit BJ's actions during day 1 are suspicous, but I'm not 100% convinced we should rush in to a lynch. Chicken Boo is indeed a character from Animaniacs, though I have no idea what a "non-traditional watcher" is or if that fits with the character. Could you elaberate please on what your role does Blake Judge?

(Chickenboo is a chicken who acts like a person, and most people think is a person)

[Foolster41]

I know BJ claimed, I was refering to the overly quick lynching of SJ. Even though it turned out well, I was warning of further rash lychning later on. Just because he claimed and he had acted suspicus during day 1, doesn't mean we should hurry to lynch BJ.

Remember, longer days are good for the town.

[Foolster41]

I agree with Fuldu on that.

[Foolster41]

I personaly think you are reading way much in to it, and sounds vaugly WIFOM.
"See, he cleaverly disguised what he said to SOUND pro-town"

[Foolster41]

So, no one's going to post today?

For those who know the show, wha do people think of the claim of chickenboo's rolecliaim where he can look at who targered someone if they were nightkiled?

This strikes me as rather un-chickenboo like personaly.

[Foolster41]

His further explination makes much more sense with the role. I have a very slight feeling of being tacked on to the claim, but because it fits well with his claim mostly makes that feeling minimal. (In less words, I believe BJ's claim).

[Foolster41]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean, Thesp.

[Foolster41]

VR: May I ask why the vote? His answer to Thesp (first post on this page) I thought was reasonable. The same for his question, Though I agree pretty much with your answer to it. Is it something else? please elaberate.

[Foolster41]

I still don't see any good evidence against Mole. The one person I feel the strongest that may be scum jis in fact Thesp, but even that is far from certin.

[Foolster41]

I asume you mean because he's lurking (Annoying, but not not he's not nessicerily paying attention to the game) since he hasn't said anythgint in a while.

I would like to see a

prod: chamber

though I don't think this is as certin or a big "revelation" as you make it sound.

[Foolster41]

Bah. What I meant to say in that perenthisis is that it's not nessicerily "proof" he's scum, he could be away or just forgot about the game.

[Foolster41]

If you don't have proof, then pushing for a claim is going to be BAD for the town, fritz. I know this is what you do and all, but I'm having serious doubts it's best for the town.

[Foolster41]

I still think thesp's reasoning against mole and Vitiman's reasoning against Fuldu are weak. Dito for Fritz's attack against chamber. Is this day 1 again? I'm going to do some rereading.

[Foolster41]

ok, back.

I intended that statement as a threat, to state that I intended to use my vote against him if he did not explain himself.

See, you say that, but I think you just wanted it to look that way. You made it clear that he needed to say something other than what he was saying. It looked like cleverly disguised in-thread scumhelp to me.

Sounds patenetly paranoid and is very bad logic.

VitaminR: From what I've seen of chamber, he has an unusual playing style. Also, I doubt scum would just announce their intention to lurk if it was a significant decision.
JDodge: So if someone admits to doing something, they're automatically cleared of being a suspect?
Vitanman R: Yes.
This is classic WIFOM, and is also very bad logic.

Vote: Thesp

for being slightly more scummy than VitimanR

[Foolster41]

Sorry. the top quote should read:

I intended that statement as a threat, to state that I intended to use my vote against him if he did not explain himself.

See, you say that, but I think you just wanted it to look that way. You made it clear that he needed to say something other than what he was saying. It looked like cleverly disguised in-thread scumhelp to me.

[Foolster41]

I guess what I mean is what you said sounded to me like you were saying his statement was "Too town to be town." That is what I meant by bad logic. Was this what you were basically saying about the statement?

[Foolster41]

Hmm.

unvote. [?b] I guess that makes sense I'm not sure I exactly agree that what mole said was scummy, in my mind I can see either side saying the same thing.

[Foolster41]

bah.

unvote

[Foolster41]

I personaly do not trust Fritler's judgement here.

I've seen him play in other games where he does this every time, pushing for a bandwagon, basicly resulting in a random roleclaim. While information is good, it is better to not reveal roles to scum in doing so. I admit, at this point I have no ideas aobut wo might or might not be scum, even after a re-read.

Fritzler, if you have something specific that makes you think someone is scum, and it's big enough to come out (Sometimes it's best to let a scum get away with being scummy os they can hang themselves more) than please share, otherwise I beleive random bandwagoning is bad for the town.

The fact that Fritz has unvoted chamber since makes me thinkk he wasn't as sure as he sounded.

Right now Thesp seems the most scummy to me, I'm going to try varifying Vitamin's claim about thesp. Thesp seems a little bloodythirsty and if it is true it sounds like a good reason to suspect him.

Probibly more later with a possible vote.

[Foolster41]

I feel Thesp is shoehorning Mole in to a place of suspicion.

You yourself admited that it's not the thing he said in itself, but the timing more or less, yes?

I actually found that to be a sound argument against SJ. Giving players the opportunity to explain themselves, especially on Day One, is just common sense. I don't think that mole was providing Jerry with any particular foothold on which to build a defense, just pointing out that if he had one, everyone would like to hear it.

That's the thing - I agree it was a sound argument (even moreso given SJ's alignment now), and I think mole summed it up in an easy package for SJ to rebut so SJ wouldn't go all over the place. SJ certainly could explain himself without mole's help, why the prompt from mole? That's what gets me - it was fairly clear that SJ needed a defense, and mole is giving SJ the opportunity to not be voted. I don't think that's a throw-away statement, I think it's very deliberate.

You even say the argument is MORESO sound because of SJ's alignment. But later:

It could be that mole was doing both, but I don't think that doing the former is inherently scummy or even poor pro-town play, so barring evidence of the latter, I don't think it's reasonable to suggest that mole did anything worthy of suspicion.

I agree with the premise, yet the fact that Sailor Jerry was indeed scum makes it more likely mole had ulterior motives. It is an inductive argument rather than a deductive one, but I think it merits consideration that it's more likely mole was doing bad things.

So you say he is MORE likely because of SJ's revealed alignment. This sounds like a contradiction to me. I like irony, so I'll say it. Tell me why I shouldn't vote for you thesp?

[Foolster41]

Thanks for ignoring my post Fuldu. (Actually it seems everyone missed it)

Vot4e: Fuidu

got your attention? Please answer my questions. (Scrolll up to my last post)

I don't understand this whole argument about multiple scum groups. This is a mini game, so isn't it moot?

[Foolster41]

bah again.

vote: Fuldu

[Foolster41]

Oh crap. How did I do that? [/b]unvote

Sorry about that.

Vote: Thesp

[Foolster41]

Why am I voting you? Did you bother looking back at my post? I'll repeat the question one more time, but if you avoid this for the THIRD TIME I strongly urge people to vote for Thesp.

I feel Thesp is shoehorning Mole in to a place of suspicion.

You yourself admited that it's not the thing he said in itself, but the timing more or less, yes?

I actually found that to be a sound argument against SJ. Giving players the opportunity to explain themselves, especially on Day One, is just common sense. I don't think that mole was providing Jerry with any particular foothold on which to build a defense, just pointing out that if he had one, everyone would like to hear it.

That's the thing - I agree it was a sound argument (even moreso given SJ's alignment now), and I think mole summed it up in an easy package for SJ to rebut so SJ wouldn't go all over the place. SJ certainly could explain himself without mole's help, why the prompt from mole? That's what gets me - it was fairly clear that SJ needed a defense, and mole is giving SJ the opportunity to not be voted. I don't think that's a throw-away statement, I think it's very deliberate.

You even say the argument is MORESO sound because of SJ's alignment. But later:

It could be that mole was doing both, but I don't think that doing the former is inherently scummy or even poor pro-town play, so barring evidence of the latter, I don't think it's reasonable to suggest that mole did anything worthy of suspicion.

I agree with the premise, yet the fact that Sailor Jerry was indeed scum makes it more likely mole had ulterior motives. It is an inductive argument rather than a deductive one, but I think it merits consideration that it's more likely mole was doing bad things.

So you say he is MORE likely because of SJ's revealed alignment. This sounds like a contradiction to me. I like irony, so I'll say it. Tell me why I shouldn't vote for you thesp?

[Foolster41]

The question, but in the context of what I saw as a contradiction.
The point I was trying to make was basically you were asserting that:

A: Mole's statement against SJ was Sound, because SJ is scum
B: Mole is more likely to be bad because SJ is scum

Now I think of it, it's not as much a contradiction as I thought. It does sound like you're setting yourself up to be right no matter what happens to mole, you can just quote either statement and look good.

I do think you're on the wrong track with this whole thing since statement B is unprovible. Either scum or town could make the statement mole made (this has been repeated by others as well).

Someone (Sorry forget who) said something about you being instrumental in the lynching of SJ. I'm going to double check that to be sure, and If It's true I'll unvote you since I agree giving up a scum buddy this early is not a likely play for scum.

[Foolster41]

Hmm. from the re-read you made some good points against Sj, but never actually voted for him. A little weird, but still I find it hard to beleive a scum would push so hard against other scum.

unvote

[Foolster41]

Oh reading wrong vote count, you voted 2nd to last. Sorry, I stand corrected.

[Foolster41]

What are you apollogizing for? voting JDodge? if so, why did you not unvote?

[Foolster41]

Ok... if THAT is the reason you are apolllogizing, then would you like to share something?

I guess witholding info so the person will "hang themselves" can be useful sometimes, but it seems pointless to apollogize and then not saying about not being ready to share yet. Also voting for the person is a little bit of a tip-off (not as big as pointing out what it was they did mind you).

[Foolster41]

FWIW?

[Foolster41]

In other words, you don't believe his claim?
Im not saying he's 100% cleared, but I would like it on the record.

And saying "I realize that" is hardly a defence, vitamin.

[Foolster41]

Then it helps to say it's fruitless then.

I'm not sure I understand the meaning of your second paragraph, or who it's directed at.

[Foolster41]

Vitamin: I think it's the double negetive that's confusing me. Could you rephrase it, and tell me what it is refering to. instead of saying you "don't get" why I don't get it?

I agree we are well past random voting.

[Foolster41]

Ok. I re-read. and the most I got out of it are people I think are probably not scum than anything else (Which is still useful).

The following are players with how likely I think they are scum (my best guesses) with reasoning. i obviously did not include myself.

Fritzler: 60% - Hammered SJ (-10%), but didn't come in until the very end after SJ was pretty much doomed (Negated^). While killing a scumate early would be stupid, I could see scum trying to finish off a doomed scum member to look good. Plus killed SJ before a claim and discusion could be made (+10%) which is agreed as a bad move for town.
Chamber: 55% - A little too lurky for my liking (+5%). Obviously willing to give Ether a chance to change this.
Fuldu: 52% - Kind of late comer on SJ lynch. possible scum tactic?
JDodge: 50% - Acting suspicous in relation to SJ (+10%), but no real reason to beleive fairly solid claim of chickenboo (Negated^)
Blake Judge/Hurrikitty/Mole - 50% Can't really get a read on these either way.
Thesp: 35% - Pushed on Mole for little good strategy in my opinion (+5%). Early on SJ lynch (-20%)
VitamanR: 35% - Making a few statements that I thought were a little scummy (+5%), but at the same time early on the SJ lynch. (+20%)

Based on this I'm going with a

Unvote Vote: Fritzler

. Not a sure-fire vote mind you, but hopefully this will get more conversation going.

[Foolster41]

Again, I have to ask, is there good reason to doubt his claim? because right now, if we beleive his claim there's no good reason to beleive he's scum. Sometimes pro-town players do act scummy. I usualy have reason to suspect everyone else by the end of the game.

[Foolster41]

Just like how you :knowsstuff: for chamber who you rather quickly unvoted AFTER saying he was definitly scum? You'll have to do better than that.

FOS: Fritzler

[Foolster41]

I never said he claimed. But he did seem rather confident that chamber was scum. and then he unvoted pretty quickly. My point is, his track record makes me not trust his :knowstuff: guts.

[Foolster41]

Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear I was refering to JDodge's claim as Chickenboo.
VT was saying how he suspects him, and I was trying to get input on consensus for the claim.

[Foolster41]

I admit that both confused and annoyed me too.
No one is confirmed at all, and I have ABSOLUTLY NO IDEA why you Thesp should think you're somehow more confirmed than anyone else here. Definitly no more than JDODGE who gave a semi-reasonable claim. I admit you're behavoir before this has seemed very pro-town to me (Being early part in SJ's lynch), but you've said things (like this) that has struck me as being scum-ish too.

[Foolster41]

I admit that both confused and annoyed me too.
No one is confirmed at all, and I have ABSOLUTLY NO IDEA why you Thesp should think you're somehow more confirmed than anyone else here. Definitly no more than JDODGE who gave a semi-reasonable claim. I admit you're behavoir before this has seemed very pro-town to me (Being early part in SJ's lynch), but you've said things (like this) that has struck me as being scum-ish too.

[Foolster41]

Thesp, I agfree with your assesment in your alast post, that you are not rock-solid confirmed, bugt one step below it because your actions in day 1. In your last post you made it sounds like you were rock solid confimed, and that is why Hurrikitty and I responded the way we did.

Thesp said: "Claims are not a defense."

And No it is not, but if it is a REASONABLE claim that doesn't look like it's likely to be false, then THERE"S NO REASON TO THINK THEY ARE SCUM. I have to admit I am getting rather annoyed that I have to keep repeating this over and over again.

I admit dodging the question of who Hurrikittty thinks is mildly suspicious at the least.

FOS: Hurrikitty

[Foolster41]

So, then you agree that Frizler is the most scummy person>
I sad long days are good for town, but this is getting to be a little ridiculous. If people think Fritzler has good odds of being scum, then we should vote for him and see what he claims.

[Foolster41]

I agree my feeling against Fritzler isn't very strong. Mostly I didn't like, as Fuldu called it "JDodge's justification without vote." If people see reason to vote someone, they should do it. I have to admit I am also getting a little frustrated by the day that has become rather slowed down.

I have to admit Hurrikittiy is looking a bit more suspicious to me, I'm going to review though.

[Foolster41]

(Also, my call to bandwagon Fritzler was partly because there are two other people voting for Fritzler, so I figured there must be some other rationale behind voting him. What Fritz does may be his normal style, but I kind of want to lynch him, just to break him of annoying habits that I feel really hurt the town (Speed lynching, Pretending to have info) and because scum tactics should be lynched (Variation of "Lynch All Liers")

Hmm. Re-reading I don't see anything that really stands out. I noticed Hurrikitty didn't vote for SJ, but that is a very small point. I can't tell if Hurrikitty's attitude is normal play, or scummyness. Definitely suspicious because of her attack on the fairly townish Thesp.

[Foolster41]

WOah, alot has happened since I last checked. I somewhat believe Fritz's claim, though it seems less detailed than JDodge's.

unvote friztler

I guess I'm fine with a mass gender claim. So, how do we descide the order? Just everyone says their gender? or is there some kind of system?

Skruffs: that is an interesting possibility, but what character would be that? I can't think of any. The Brain maybe, but that seems tenuous.

[Foolster41]

Bah. I meant blake judge. sorry.

[Foolster41]

Skruffs, I think that was too much information. Now I can probbily guess what you are, but obviously I won't say.

[Foolster41]

male

[Foolster41]

So, today's the deadline. Are people going to talk or what? I'm not surwe how much this claim tells it, besides confirming a little bit more my suspicion already on hurrikitty.

[Foolster41]

Yeah this sounds like stalling to me. I'm tempted to hammer if hurri doesn't claim in the next few days (like tues-wendsday)

[Foolster41]

Uh, yeah. I said

tesday or wendsday

. That's 3-4 days, pleanty of time. I said tempted anyway, not certain. Though if she posts against without claiming I will do it for sure.

[Foolster41]

I have no idea what you are talking about. I havn't claimed yet, or do you mean last to claim gender?

VitaminR: I'm not going to rule out the possibility that fritz may be scum, but is there really any reason to doubt his claim? He's for the most part cleared in my book. *shrug*

[Foolster41]

Yes. I ddin't understand how you could be confused with anther game though if you mean a gender claim.
Also, I didn't understnad what you meant by enough people beleiving to get a desired effect. You mean, itturns out to help the town anyway (even if he's scum), or you suspect he's manipulating the town, or something else?

[Foolster41]

Uh, perhaps you missed the point where Thesp is proibibly more likely to be town than hurrikitty. I'm very very tempted to vote hurrikitty since it's been about 5 days without a claim? When is the deadline anyway?

[Foolster41]

Sorry. question mark in the wrong place. switch the first period and first question mark.
Also a big

FOS: Skruffs

[Foolster41]

Not claiming is the ONLY WAY of confirming that it won't matter.

vote: Hurrikitty

I'm going to be really mad at you if you turn out being town after all this.

[Foolster41]

Hmm. I was actually thinking skruffs was the other scum (or most likely canidate at least). I'm out of ideas. I have to look back now.

[Foolster41]

I can't find the lsiting fo who's what gender. Too lazy to go back and count the claims right now.

[Foolster41]

I don't have any strong reading on fuldu either way. Any specific reason?

[Foolster41]

Hmm. That sounds pretty good to me.

vote: fuldu

Hey Thesp, I know this is going to sound cryptic, but did anything happen to you last night?

[Foolster41]

If people want me to explain, I'll explain, but It's not really worthwhile otherwise.

I agree that a Fuldu claim would be good.

[Foolster41]

Hmm. I was thinking about it, and I'm thinking I jumped too early, perhaps 3rd from last isn't as suspicous as seems. It sounds like what vitamin is saying (and correct me if I'm wrong) that sure DThesp and Frtt's posistions on the lynch are more suspicous, but their pretty muched cleared, and so went back to the next vote back and there's Fuldu.

3rd from last is hardlyt the killing blow, no matter who's in front of it.

I don't like your comment where you try to extrapu8l;ate a imagined reaction from an imagined possible response by you, but since there's no realt reason to doubt you're claim,

unvote fuldu

I'd approve a mass sspecies claim.

[Foolster41]

Maybe we should also remass claim gender, sinec it was lost. I only have a partial list.

[Foolster41]

Thanks fritz.
So it seems there are 3 people left who I think could be scum: Ehter, JDodge and VitaminR. I'd like to request that those 3 are the first to claim human/not-human (I'd be willing to claim with them as a show of good faith but I have a role I know I can prove.).

[Foolster41]

I thinl what NAR is alluding to is the old scum double-FOS ploy. where scum FOS each other to distance themselves, yet never votes. Added ot the fact that Thesp was a reletivly late comer to the vote. Is this analysis correct, NAR?

This too I think is alright evidencem were it not for the fact thzt thesp basicly pointed out SJ's scummy behavior right at the begining. Unless thesp gave a fellow scum to clear himself (very unlikely) I think Thesp can be considered "nearly cleared" as JDodge said.

[Foolster41]

Nowaranger: I think Thesp has well answered the concerns, Thesp being an early factor in the SJ lynch is a good indication of his probible townieness. Outing a fellow scum at the beginning (If it were a last vote, I might beleive it as scum last ditch) is such a stupid and suicidal play that I find it very unlikely Thesp is scum. I suggest you give it up or otherwise have the rest of town ignore you.

[Foolster41]

Nowaranger: The problem is Thesp voiced concerned about SJ FIRST and pointed out a leginitmate reason to be suspcious. You don't just bring up info on your scum buddy and EXPECT it not to lead to preasure or ultimatly a lynch. This I think is the biggest problem with your case thus far.

The only 3 people I think can be scum are Ether, JDodge and VitaminR. I have maybe a slightly higher tell on VitamanR, but I don't have any definite reasons, just gut which I admit doesn't count for much.

[Foolster41]

I got my prod, but mainly we are waiting for (ironicly named) Blahgo.

[Foolster41]

I want to hear from Bhago too, so I'm not saying we should rush to do anything before gthen, but while we're waiting might as well discuss ideas.

The way I ssee it, because of claiming there are only 4 people who could be scum:
Ether, JDodge, VitaminR and myself. I have a role that I believe will be provable enough to clear me (and would do so at the begining before this plan would take effect naterualy.) .

Thst leaves 3. By my calculations if we line up each one and lynch them in a row (allowing a claim from them to gather information, lynching if they refuse) we will have 7 people at the end even if they make a kill every ngiht and the last on is the scum.

So, discuss thoughts on this idea. I don't see how at this point we can loose unless the mod has screwed us and one of the people who claimed is scum.

[Foolster41]

I don't think I am so far off base.

NOR: One question. Is there a good reason WHY we should NOT believe Fritzler or Fuldu, after the information they provided/will provide? Can't their abilities be proven beyond doubt now? That was what I mean by the mod screwing us, since by all appearances they look like they are not scum, or at least put themselves where thje lie will find them out, but the mod could be fooling us.

FULDU:
Your count is correct, but still 6 alive at the end isn't bad.
Why did you give Thesp as an example of all people? Do you seriously believe that Thesp could be lying? this seems like covered ground already.

I agree that you should prove yourself before the day's over, but that's only me.

[Foolster41]

Fuldu:
Calculating a scneerio where the scum doesn't kill anyone is useless then. It's best to chart the worst case scenerio. I realize i saw the number 12 at the bottom of the list assumed that there were 12 still alive, instead of 8.
Here's how I think it would play out worst case scenerio:
Day/Night: Lynch 1 (7 remaining), 1 killed from scum (6 remaining)
Day/Night: Lynch 1 (5 remaining), 1 killed from scum (4 remaining)
Dayt: Lynch 1 (3 remaining), We win.
Yes, if for some reason that one of the people who claimed was ltubg we would most likely loose. However, I ask the question again, isn't there a way that fritz and NAR can prove his role? And if you prove your role that just leaves Thesp, who as it was said before I find it hard to believe is scum. Once we make sure those who claimed are nhot lying with cross confirmations (including me proving myself) we can begin my strategy and be sure of a win out of pure elimination. Obviously if someone doesn't check out, we lynch them and win anyway.

I'm not talking about jumping blindly in to a lynch fest, but a systematic process after a careful elimination of suspects.

[Foolster41]

itubg is aparently code for lying. Or a bad typo.

[Foolster41]

I persnaly think it would be a waste of investigation, but if it'll get you to shut up about Thesp being scum, then fine.

[Foolster41]

Hmm. You bring up a good point in you analysise of JDogde, but I'll wait until the whole human/not human thing is finished before I vote.

Your right that perhaps JDodge's role could be fake. I asked before for reasons why someone should beleive he is lying, and this is soemthing that I didn't look very close at, but thought was a little odd. Not sure enough for a vote, but I would like to hear what other people think.

I'm hoping this human/not human thing will go quickly since this game has been slower than molasses in January... running up hill.

[Foolster41]

JDodge: "Eh?" What? I think the posisition was well stated in a previous post. Your role is unusual for its type (Having to target someone targeted for death to watch). I don't see how I was unclear. I'm willing to entertain it as a possibility that you are lying scum unless you cna present evidence otherwise. I have a feeling there's a way of proving yourself (if you havn't already and I'm densly missing it).

As for the claim, Actually, I'm not entirely sure. I'm humanoid, but not exactly. I'm sending a PM to the mod to double check to see if he'll give me more info. I know I should have throught to PMing the mod earlier, but it actually didn't even occur to me. Sorry.

I'm pretty sure I've given away who I am from this and previous posts. Honestly I don't think there's much harm in everyone knowing at this point anyway.

[Foolster41]

Doh! Oh. I get mixed up with acronyms and names. I think especialy since they are both initials of 2 letters with a J. Sorry.

By the way, the mod answered back basicly "I'm not telling." So I'll have to stand by my claim of "humanoid" The only way I can explain further is to fully claim, which I'm willing to do if need be.

[Foolster41]

Oops. Sorry. Ether.

[Foolster41]

I noticed Ether is the only to to not gender claim. Perhaps he should do that now.

[mrow]Name[col]Gender[col]Human/Not[col]role 2.)NAR[col]Male[col]?[col]Chicken Boo 3.)Ether (Replacing Chamber)[col]?[col]?[col]? 4.)Foolster41[col]Male[col]"Humanoid"[col]? 5.)Fritzler[col]Female[col]Human[col]Hello Nurse 6.)Fuldu[col]Male[col]Human[col]Ralph the Guard 8.)JDodge[col]Male[col]Non-Human[col]? 11.)Thesp[col]Not-Male[col]?[col]? 12.)VitaminR[col]Male[col]Non-Human[col]?

So that leaves us with 7/8 genderclaims, 5/8 human/not human claims and 3/8 roleclaims so far.

[Foolster41]

Bah. These replacements confuse me. Thesp then if he hasn't.

[Foolster41]

Ok. So everyone claimed.

I want to now know, what everyone feels about those who claimed already. The onyl one I think may be lying is NAR, but I woudn't bet a whole lot on that.

If we can knock down the number of suspects to only 3, then we have a sure victory of pushing those few left in to claiming and lynching the most likely canidates until we win. With 3 the worst case scenerio is we end with 2 left at the end and final scum dead unless we make a mistake and we mistakenly think a scum is pro-town. That's why we need to be careful in figuring out confirmations.

[Foolster41]

^ When I say "claimed" in the frist paragraph, I mean human/non-human, and when I say "claimed" for the remainder, I mean a full claim.

[Foolster41]

Yes, calm down NAR. The reason is the strange variation on a normal role. That is my only reason. I will be the frist to admit, it is weak, but a suspicion none the less.

The problem if he is lying, both profiles of male/non-male and human/non-human will match the last remaining scum (Presumibly a male non-human since Dot is dead.) so we can't confirm him that way.

I admit it may be possible that fritz or fuldu may be lying, but I find it less likely than you lying for the above reasons. but nonetheless, that is why I think it's important to confirm the people who claimed first so we can narrow down the suspects (as I said before).

[Foolster41]

Well, I thoguth it would come to this. I'm Mr. skullhead. I've been breadcrumming this all through the game. I can once per game give one person a good idea, and one person a bad idea. I can use them both at once if I wish. I did use them both, I targeted Thesp with the good idea and Skruffs with my bad idea.

[Foolster41]

I guess only once, not as much as I thought.

[Foolster41]

We're talking about your role, right? I know I got names mixed up in the past. I believe all refer to chiclken boo. For one thing, those posts are out of order (As you show), which I think is deceptive. I questioned at the begining, not the end as you imply ("NOW I come in asking....", Ephisis mine)

At first I thought the role struck me as weird, but I couldn't place my finger on it (#139), but without other evidence in my mind there wasn't any good reason to doubt the claim. You seemed unvoncinced, so I wanted to know why, I wasn't saying you were wrong, but I wanted to know the reasons (#219). Finally when the unusualness of the role was pointed out, it made me more suspect (#537). I feel this is a purely logical progression.

[Foolster41]

I thought it was not intentional. Sorry if I seem overly harsh.

It wasn't so much that they were in two psots as thethat it seemed like maybe he was sticking on more stuff to the claim. Last minute changes makes me jumpy. But like I said before, It seemd to fit with a chi8cken boo (Watching people) so I didn't suspect at the time.

I feel I also should point out, I'm not even saying "You're definitly lying" but I am definitly less sure of your claim that the other two.

[Foolster41]

Or rather, I thought it may have been unintentional .Sorry for my typo(s). (Apollogizing again, I know!)

[Foolster41]

triple psot! (Sorry).
I realize I never answered the question, yes the skull refrence was the bread crum.

DH! I somhow keep mixing up NAR and Sweeny tod. When I said "your" i meant NAR of course. I'm just terrbile with names. I need to pay more attention.

So, where do we go from here. I'm thinking maybe we should do a mass claim, but just with JDodge and Vitamin R. Did SweenyTod or his predicesors ever claim? If not, add nim to that list too.

[Foolster41]

What comunications with Hurrikaty are you talking about? I can;t find it when I look back. I think it has to do with the lack of using names in some places with no postsbefore (I don;t want to look back 24 pages if I don't have to)

[Foolster41]

A name claim sounds good. Killing off non-humans sounds alright to me since there are only a few. The problem is if one of them are lying. Two of the people I suspect most are non-human anyway, so fine.

[Foolster41]

An obvious question comes up here, but nopt sure if I should ask it, since it would require revealing more info.

So, where do we go from here?

[Foolster41]

I like the idea of a full claim, but we should start with VitR, JDodge and Sweenytodd first since they are in my mind the most likely to have at least one scum among them. Then we can move on to the others (I think Thesp should be last since he seems to be the least liekly to be scum.) This will give the scum less chances to know what esl is out there to get clues.

[Foolster41]

I apologize, People seemed to think my claim checked out with my bread cruming before and no one really voiced any concern that i saw that I'm scum.

I admit I'm not confirmed, but at least I gave a role that I beleive is completly fitting in with my role. Tell me, does it make sense for brain AND otto scratch n' sniff to both be vanilla. This doesn't seem to fit very well and I suspect one of them is lying. Also I find it weird that pinky and brain have no connection whatsoever.

Also, I pointed out who should claim FIRST. I already gave a full claim, so I obviously already told all. I was mearly pointing out that the most likely to be scum should claim first.

I mearly pointed out the people who I feel is most likely to be scum. I understand I'm not cleared, but I'm oviously not going to put myself on the list.

[Foolster41]

JDodge:
"What are we doing tomarrow night?"
"Try to take over the world"
"DUN DUN DUN DUN Their pinky, their pinky and the brain brain brain brain."

I have to ask, why would I ask a question like that unless it had some connection to my role? Was I a scum trying to see if a special night action worked? Doubtful since it looks like scum killed someone that night. So wouldn't it be best to just keep my mouth shut if I was scum?

I admit that perhaps skruffs, the one I targeterd for the good idea dyijng is a little suspicous, and it is a strange cooincidence that made me almost think I accidently killed him. But that doesn't make any sense for the character unless the mod accidently swtiched the good idea/bad ideaas.

I'm as good as vanilla, but still you're making a mistake if you lynch me.

Honestly, now that everyone's claimed everyone pretty much seems as likely to be scum to me. There must be mod supplied safe claims since t here hasn't been any counter claims.

Oh yeah, and since I forgot to,

FOS: FULDU

. I had already claiimed, so there was nothing more for me to say abouit my self. Saying that those most liekly to be scum should claim first is fairly logical. Also, you beleive THREE TOWNIES which is the easist thing for a scum to make and not a more complicated role? Yesm you would fall in that catagory, but when you say stuff like this, I'm not as sure.

[Foolster41]

On my last point, to clearify, what I mean is you basicly blew off the fact that they all three claimed townie and the likelyhood of a scum claiming townie (It's a classic)

[Foolster41]

Oh yeha, I did do bad idea on skruffs. I don't know what I was thinking. I don't know why I thougth I gave skruffs the good idea. It was thesp who got the good idea. I wonder if I accicdently killed skruffs then.

[Foolster41]

It was a simple brainfart. Sorry. and NAR: I'm a GUY!

[Foolster41]

Seriously it was a mix up, and honestly i don't quite get how this is so "proved it" that you are all jumping on me. I think you need to not rush this and think about it. Is this, or is this not something that could be an honest mistake by a pro-town player? If there's ANY doubt in your mind, you shouldn't lynch me.

Also no one seemed to even actknowledge my question of why on EARTH would I say anything to Thepsp if I were scum? Isn't always best as scum to fly under the radar and not invent new ways that they could possibly get caught when there is CURRENTLY NO PREASURE ON THEM?

Vote: VitR

leading a charge, but not voting?

[Foolster41]

I tend to be forgetful, also I find it interesting that two of the people I most suspect anyway (JDdoge and VitR) are leading this.

FOS: JDodge

[Foolster41]

Night 2 (I looked at the date of the PM I sent, which is april 26th, I thought it was N2 but wanted to make sure.)

[Foolster41]

And Yes, I'm "trying to make you doubt that I'm scum." If what you mean is "convince you I'm not scum." I'm presenting evidence tio show that I'm not scum, then yes. Duh.
Rushing to a hasty lynch = bad for town.

VitR: beign unsure is fine, but you sure didn't sound torn before, and yet didn't vote.

I'm wondering if either this is a coincidence and I happened to target someone and scum targeted the same person I did (Skruffs was looking most scummy to me at the time). I have another theory but I'm not sure it'd be good to say what ti is, and I think it's fairly unlikely anyway.

[Foolster41]

I was wondering if a doc claimed townie, wanting to keep quiet, but I don't think this is very likely bec ause of the common "Lynch all liars" theory that's been used prominently, and the fact that there's no roles that make sensee for it. (Unless fritz isn't telling all, but I doubt it.)

[Foolster41]

Hmm. Fine I guess. I still don't like how you sounded so sure if you wern't. I'll downgrade my vote

unvote: VitaminR

to a

Medium FOS: VitaminR

[Foolster41]

Isn't this going to slow down the game, having NabakovNabakov absent?

I'm not sure I like a nolynch, but I have to admit with no too many leads it's better choice than lynching a town by mistake, so I'll go along with that.

Vote: No Lynch

[Foolster41]

So, I claim mr. skullhead. I breadcrumb at day 2 something that is very obvious. So, basicly you have to admit I had in my mind what I was going to claim at that point then or I'm telling the truth. Not huge, but I think somethinf that's slightly in the favor of me telling the truth.

If you are taking Fuldu's sarcastic "excelent job" post, I have to disagree since it includes some descceptions. He acuses me of pointing my finger at others and saying who should claim. first, but I never said I was completly in the clear (People didn't really seem to raise much concern when I claimed and so, I thought it was not an issue.) Also, I had already FULLY CLAIMED, so there wasn't any more for me to say about myself.

Also, overall I think I've been giving good advice to the rest of the town. I've cautioned against rushing in to a lynch (on I think you JDodge), and at the same time was half-way in the hrrikitty lynch (Not one of the first, but not exaclty a late comer either.).

I'm defending myself because I really do think lynching me is a wrong move. It's better to nolynch to lynch me.
I admit I've made flubs accidently making myself suspicious. Forgetting which one I sent which role was stupid. But I had suspected Skruffs the most and thought of thesp as most likely to be town (as I still do.), so that's the reason why I sent Skruffs bad and Thesp good. I should have reality checked, but I replied without thinking at all.

If you really feel you need to lynch me, fine. I don't know what else to add. The way I count it, we have 8 now so we need to lynch scum before day 6 or scum wins.

I still think VitR is the most likely to be the last scum. He rushed for a lynch at begining of day 2. I still don't like the asured "nice catch" and then sounding like he wasn't sure.

[Foolster41]

That's a very good point. the only one I can think of maybe investigating is Sweenytodd to make sure he's telling the truth. I don't really think of him as being more or less townish, but it couldn't hurt.

Perhaps a no-lynch isn't a good move as I first thought.

unvote

[Foolster41]

So, it looks like there are 4 people who we are looking at who could be scum:
JDodge, JDodgeand, VitR and myself. NAR might be lying, but if his role is provable we can remove him from the list. SweenyTodd is also a possible if he's lying, but that can be proved tonight.

We have about 3 days until the town is doomed (On day 7 we will be down to 2 people if we don't no lynch). If we no lynch, town looses a day.

I say we lynch the most likely of these 4-5 tonight (Me, if you are really sure) and investigate Sweeny Todd. If we get a non-human, lynch all liars and we win. If we get a human result, then town proceeds to lynch the next most likely of the remaining 3 until either we win or we loose. Obviously pausing for discussion on each day of who should be next and not hurrying a lynch.

I think this is the best way to go for the town at this point. I have voiced who I think is most likely scum in my opinion from this group and why.[

Vote: VitaminR

[Foolster41]

I mean on day 6. Sorry.

[Foolster41]

I'm not convinced we're going to get any good information, but fine. I'm not completly my plan is any good either now I take a second look at it.

[Foolster41]

I do not have any further info on my role. I was told explicitly by the mod at the begining that I don't know what they do, but I could assume that good was good and bad was bad (This fit with my role, where bad ideas usualy bad ideas ended up with pain for Mr. Skullhead.). I have a few suspciions of what it could do. I don't think it will help, but I might as well share since info is info.

The only possiblity I can think of for good idea is a protectiion. Any sort of investigation wouldn't make sense to me. I'm not sure what you mean by "motivation."
For bad idea the town possibilities I thought of was either a roleblock or a kill. I think either I accidently killed the skruffs and the scum incidently targeted the same person, or for some reason was unable to kill, or I targeted with a roleblock and it came to nothing anyway, since skruffs was a townie and scum targeted him. Either way, the scum killed Skruffs.

My plan was more of a sort of guideline, and I noted that discussion would interlude during days and the town would take their time. As it is, as I said before I'm not so sure this is such a good plan anyway anymore.

As for the bad spelling, I like to think I'm getting a little better but this is a constant thing for me if you know me. I seem to always get suspected because of my sloppiness.

As for the rest of it, (except trading your name with mine ) I completly agree with your observation of the game.

[Foolster41]

At the end of the second paragraph, I guess I should have said that the town most liekly killed Skruffs since i find it unlikely that the scum who killed killed Skruffs was targeted bya roleblocker.

by the way, if way if there is somehow a roleblocker out there who targeted someone the night skurffs was killed and didn't target one of the dead scum (I can't remember if Hurrikitty was already dead by then, but I don't think so.) they should probably come out now since I'm 90% sure that would be our last scum.

[Foolster41]

I meant to say MAFIA most likely killed skurffs. sorry. The other way makes absolutly no sense.

*sigh* so in we pretty much know exactly what we knew before.

So we have JDodge, VitimanR, Me and fuldu?

Out of these, I have to say VitaminR is most suspicous to me. "Nice catch looks like we have our last scum" sounds VERY certin to me, and his saying it isn't to cover himself makes me suspicous, among other reasons I've stated before. If you look back, I'm not the only one to suspect him in the past either.

Fuldu is a close second, partly because of his "excelent job" post about me. I felt it was dishonest considering I had already told all I could tell about myself, so the only thing left would to say who I most likely is scum. There were other things, but i only have a vauge memory of them.

[Foolster41]

Except you didn't SOUND like "Actually, I'll do this now." It was more "Look he's scum!" then "I never said I was sure he was scum." It's not changing you mind, it's BACKPEDDLING.

My point was, there were other reasons to suspect you, but I don't remember exactly what they were.

Also, before you lynch me, I want everyone to ask themselves 3 big questions (Not nessicerly outloud):
1.)Have I been saying things in the best interests of town (Caution to not quicklynch when it looked like 3 others were going to, talking pretty regularly and not lurking)?
2.)Does my early breadcrumb on day 2 lessen the likelihood I am lying, since that means I would have formulated my role then. Not impossible to do if I were scum, bugt not something scum would nessicerly think to do.
3.)Why would I question Thesp about a result I didn't have? The "He knew he was going to get a free pass" double bluf" is hardly a counter to that, since it's purely WIFOM and accusing me of gambling on said free pass, which would be stupid.

That's all I have to say about that.

Could someone refresh my memory why JDodge is suspicious. I have only a vague memory of it. In fact a summery of reasons why the four of us are suspicious would be nice too so we can make a good decision on the ones to lynch.

[Foolster41]

Ok, then why me first? I can think of good reasons why (and pointed out by others, so it's not just me saying this) others are suspicous of the unconfirmed (Read, JDodge, VitR and Fuldu).

[Foolster41]

Why? I don't thik you would have been much in the spotlight.
leading the town in to lynching a townie and at the same time keeping off the blame is exactly what scum are trying to do, and is what I think is what you maybe were doing there.

If you got me lynched right then you could say "look no votes" and hope no one checks back to see you lead it. But I called you on it, which meant you had to pretend you wern't al the serious about lynching me in the first place, but which doesn't fly cionsidering the sure "Looks like we found scum" post. The more I think about it, and the more you try convincing me you wern't sure the more I want to

Vote: VitaminR

I don't much care if I get lynched first as long as you promise to get VitaminR next.

[Foolster41]

(And no, it's not my birthday. )

[Foolster41]

Fuldu: there's got to be something on each of the unconfirmed (including me) why there's suspicion. If we can weigh who's the most likely to be scum we canb better descide who to lynch than just randomly guessing.

[Foolster41]

*shrugs* perhaps. still think it's mildy scummy and not much to go on.
I completlly agree with upir last sentence.

Oh, and a heads up in case i forg4et that I'm going to be on vacation for 2 weeks staring on the 22nd and I'm 99% sure I won't have net access.

[Foolster41]

Er. In the first sentence I mean There's not much to go on. I really need to more carefully proffread.

[Foolster41]

Way to go town! Good game.
Very well desiged game PJ.

I'm not sure what the "discrepancy" was in my claim, as VitR kept saying.