Diffusion of Power (Open 478) over

[mcqueen]

So if I wagon Rach she won't get lynched?

I honestly don't know. Try it.

[mcqueen]

#inb4igetcalledscummybywisdom

[Wisdom]

What is your read on Rach?

[Jalyn]

Managed to get through this at work

Pirate mollie/B&B pings and notes:

Spoiler:

post 73 (paraphrasing) "Hey doesn't HD look scummy? I'll keep my RSV vote."

post 99
This post explains why Wisdom's defending pings so hard. It is difficult to read someone that is defending you as scum, especially if you end up both attacking the same person.

post 322 This gives me a very good read on this slot. If it was the last interaction or the interactions remained similar, I could see it as two new scums where one suddenly realized that they couldn't be this connected to each other, but a) I don't think either is new & b) there wasn't a continuing distancing. At the time it felt like mollie realizing how close Wisdom was associating himself with her and finding it suspicious. Apparently, that didn't last.

post 553 This confuses me, If you think D_O is scummy here for sucking up to you, why isn't Wisdom for his (ARGH, WoT is going to make that gender hard! Apologies in advance for where I'll get this wrong.) earlier defenses of mollie?

Read: town, but mostly because Wisdom reads scum and I don't see two scum playing this way.

Tigerzone/CF Riot pings and notes:

Spoiler:

Tigerzone was a jerk. Moving on.

post 784 Death threats or not, I liked this post.

post 839 I know you explained it later, but the sudden jump to Mitellos with no explanation was odd. Also, why "about that time?"

Read: town

PetroleumJelly/Disturbed_One pings and notes:

Spoiler:

post 161 The only real post from PJ in the game and it's one of the best in the thread.

post 179 Yep, total town feeling post, I was surprised that so many people where surprised that HD called it that way.

post 181Obvious call, but a good post.

post 382 I'll look for the saying one thing/doing another in my Wisdom reread, the multiple defense posts were what pinged on my first read. The second half of this feels like reading to much into a cut in the quote. Also, I'll make a mental note to never assume D_O is asking a rhetorical question.

post 414 A) I feel your pain. B) I think you were way too hard on mollie, there was content in what she was posting. I agree with you that you can't just gloss over scum tells with "but that's how X plays!" but I think you went overboard on the idea that mollie wasn't posting anything of worth.

post 814 Wishy-washy? How? This sounds like trying to throw every bad thing you can think of at him. You're actually saying "you keep doing X - that's wishy-washy!"

Read: town
fuzzy/mcqueen

Spoiler:

post 35
Ugh. Was Fuzzy new? Because this is classic "I want to look as pro-town as I can so I'll say the most obvious thing ever"

post 53 Again.

post 130 I don't even understand this.

post 243 I don't think I saw this the first time through - why are there so many people jumping up to defend mollie?

post 256 I'm not sure why this one hit me as scummy, but it really did.

post 354 now this post... The first part is great, and I'm relatively convinced that that's happening. The last part, unless that was a total joke it's not only annoying, it's total scum. You tell me where to put my vote so I'm not responsible for it. (I'm going to assume it was a joke, given that it could have been.)

post 499For anyone that didn't understand why mcqueen was voting for Wisdom, here is the explanation. The really sad part is that after a massive scum read on fuzzy, mcqueen started to rehabilitate the slot for me with his initial reads. Well, things he was pointing out.

post 605 And then he blew it all to hell.

Read: definitely leans scum. I don't do meta, I'm not going to go back and look for mcqueen's games, but the read is mostly off of fuzzy's posts anyway as mcqueen seems to be the type of player that I can't read.

KMD:

Spoiler:

post 610

Regarding your take on the policy lynch, the problem isn't just that the town doesn't get information on the lynchee, they get very little information on anyone else in the town. Even if you get lucky and hit a scum target, anyone who's not on the lynch says "Um, policy lynch, of course I didn't jump on" and anyone who might be bussing says "have you seen how that person posts, of course I wanted to get rid of him or her." So, no, it's not that bad for scum to get rid of an anti-town player with a pro-town orientation (in fact, it's probably bad in that sense, because they get rid of someone that the town is going to continually focus on) but the waste of the day is good for them.

Wait - your vote for mollie wasn't a joke? Then what was it?

fuzzy may have already asked, but it's a damn good question all the same.

I agree with ProHawk, that the line about him not looking obvtown like he did elsewhere, is a nasty little insert.

You noted that Siv & ThePuck's tiger votes looked opportunistic, and didn't mention D_O, why is he included in your "one of three is scum" but ProHawk isn't - especially after you just said that ProHawk doesn't look as obvtown as usual?

Read: Null, leaning scum - there's just not a lot there to work with, he made one large post with information where bits of it pinged, as mentioned above but other than that all we're getting is posting enough to stay in the game.

HD

Spoiler:

post 88 I like this post.

post 210 Follows up the last one that I said I liked with an expansion of the reads on Wisdom and mollie, explains his current concern with the tigerzone wagon. Another good post.

post 222 Exactly. I can see "Hey, you're being mean, stop it" defenses of another player. When someone is actually finding things that they find suspicious about another player, it's fine to give an altering read but jumping in to actively defend is a really scum move. Among other things, the player should be the one responding to it so that we can get their reaction to the evidence. (There's probably a side note here that I really hate meta arguments. I don't really care how someone plays in another game. I care what they are doing in this game.) The other problem, of course, is that it really easy for a player to say "Hey, player Y is defending me, he or she can tell that I'm town. He or she must be pro-town as well." There's a reason that buddying is considered a scum tell.

post 233 Another good post.

post 856
I'm not sure I appreciate you calling someone out for not attempting to break up an argument in which you were a full participant. The rest of this is rational.

Read: Town. Seems to be scum hunting. Reverses his reads when something makes it questionable. "Tunnels," yes, but who doesn't? I especially like the mollie reversal when it began to look more and more like Wisdom was buddying up to her.

Mitellos:

Spoiler:

post 123
Liked this post. Normally the @mod things are slightly annoying because it feels like a way to get a word in without actually saying anything, but the rest of the post goes on to make some analysis, so that part's null.

post 195 I agree with you about policy lynches, but you completely misrepresented the tigerzone wagon. Noone wanted to policy lynch tigerzone because of the zab policy lynch. HD & DO wanted to lynch him because they found the PL scummy and the others wanted to policy lynch him because his actions caused someone else to actually quit this game in protest.

post 565
Siv's too quiet to be anything but null.

post 819 Siv's the next highest scum read after HD. B&B's case is mentioned here, so there might be a reason I missed in ISO. (Yep, looking back, B&B did give a response on Siv that pretty much echoes how I've been thinking. Mitellos stopped asking about Siv and then, next time he was mentioned was second most scummy. Seems reasonable.)

post 942 Another good post.

Read: Town


ProHawk:

Spoiler:

post 154A very good explanation of why mollie looked scummy in the early game.

post 369
And the explanation for the Wisdom wagon. Also, I completely agree with the "scum won't work so hard" analysis.

post 696
I completely agree, but kind of love "show me a game where using information from another game was helpful!"

post 989 Meh, I've mentioned somewhere else that I hate @mod posts that don't do anything else because it's a way to look like you're keeping up and contributing without actually adding to the conversation, but Rach was pretty much spamming the thread anyway at that point, so that's not a big deal. Unless you picked up from it that she was claiming day 1, I don't see that it's that much of a issue. It's not like soft claiming a power role in this game means anything. I find the slot scummy as hell, but I'm not sure that's what would have made me flip to vote her.

Read: Well, it was town until the Rach vote with a weak argument. Now I guess it's "leans town."

SIV/Rach:

Spoiler:

post 174 Paraphrasing: "I hate a policy lynch, but we have to do so and tigerzone has more votes"

post 438 Paraphrasing: "tigerzone lynch is dead"

post 515Paraphrasing: "and no one seems to be going with ThePuck."

post 883There are things that are obviously jokes and there are things that are jokes that stomp on your toes and punch you in the nose. When there are actually serious reasons to suspect people, votes for such things are ludicrous. (I could almost see a frustration "quit joking around" vote. I've considered it. But an "I'm going to take this obvious joke seriously" vote?)

post 939
A) Out of all of Mitellos' posts, that offhand comment to mcqueen being, um, mcqueen, was all you saw to comment on and it gave you a town read?
B) Have you READ this thread? A little less of the same argument over and over would be a very good thing.

post 954 WTH? D_O posts an intro that gives distinct reads on everyone when he replaces into the game. And then spends another 32 pages telling us exactly what he thinks and you vote him because he hasn't posted that list updated since then?

post 956 Seriously, you don't have any idea what D_O is thinking? He's been pretty damn bloody clear.

Read: Scum.

Slimer:

Spoiler:

Right. There was something to analyze.

Read: WTFEver.

Wisdom:

Spoiler:

post 55 This post I like. Here Wisdom is looking for things that don't make sense in what other people do.

post 71 As I said to someone above, the problem with a policy lynch isn't so much that it takes away the towns chance to get information from the lynchee, it takes away the ability to get information from the rest of the town.

post 78I can see where Wisdom's coming from in this one. Lynch anyone who wants a policy lynch!!1 is, ah, counterproductive

post 126 Yeah, it's been called out by others, but "that person that I don't have a problem with did the same thing as the person that I do have a problem with. Huh, lynch the guy I already had a problem with, he's obvscum."

post 150 Defends mollie.

post 152 Defends mollie.

post 155Defends mollie.

post 157 I'm not defending mollie. Defends mollie.

post 159 Defends mollie.

post 162 I'm NOT defending mollie, I am defending tigerzone. Defends mollie.

post 182 The infamous "lynching town" comment, which is AWFUL. Also? Defends mollie.

post 229You do realize that there is a difference between, "ok, that read as town to me" and "Why would you think that's scummy, they are always like that." Especially when the first is not in response to someone else calling it scummy, but giving a read. No one has commented on your analysis that slimer looks town. You've made a call and let the town know what you think. That's fine. If HD had started telling everyone that their reads on D_O were off - then you'd have a comparison. (And if tis happened in one of the posts that I admittedly skimmed through because you all were sying the same thing post after post, please point it out to me.)

post 245Laying the groundwork for a backpedal.

post 262 The second such and such is a townie post. (And after saying numerous times that he didn't even have a town read on mollie.

post 264 Defending mollie.

post 286 I hate meta arguments. This is a large part of why - I'm not going to go skimming back through other games of people I'm playing with. If nothing else, I don't have that kind of time.

post 295Why? Is mollie incapable of defending herself? Because it doesn't particularly seem like that is the case.

post 334 It's the backpedal, but it comes with reasoning to move over and some idea of who else he finds suspicious. I'm ok with this.

post 373 Why would HD trying to push your lynch and mollie's make mollie town, even if he is scum? Scum bus each other. Even better, if HDscum has linked you and mollie in people's minds and you come up town... mollie looks pretty good, doesn't she? Also, you were the one that linked mollie and you together, not HD.

post 383 (Not a paraphrase) "It's not even like I defended anyone, I just shot down the accusations on mollie and slimer because they were bullshit - I am not sure either of them is town though."
I'm not defending them, all I did was defend them! Also, it's totally crap to claim that I'm doing things that I don't believe in, I'm just defending people that I don't know are innocent.

post 460 Defending does not have anything to do with the quality of the arguments that are made against a person. Defending is simply speaking up in their defense. Again, this is bad for two reasons:
A) It makes it so that the person that is being called scum does not have to answer the arguments themselves. If the argument was completely invalid, why not let mollie respond to it?
B) It makes a town player more likely to trust you, unless they are being careful. This is why scum like to do it. (And it's the answer to the above question, because it makes mollie more likely to trust you.)

Read: Scum

Zab:

Spoiler:

Before going into a pbpa: I think zab got off a little easy in the policy lynch debacle and find it interesting that people where calling out tigerzone for it but never really noticed that zab was doing the exact same thing.

post 298 So many reasons that that is silly.
A) Depending on the length of a game, telling someone to go read it is hours of commitment. And there's no reason to assume that they will see the same thing that you are thinking of. If people insist on using meta, then they need to point out what the hell they are talking about.
B) Have you seen the massive output that HD has put into this game?

post 335 I like this move.

post 726 Have I mentioned how much I really dislike the @mod posts? And why? Posts that don't contribute to the conversation are the epitome of active lurking. It's less noticeable than someone that pops in right before or after a prod and gives a quick nothing post, but it's just as bad.

post 778 I think this one was at D_O and, again, it's a dig that someone else isn't putting effort into the game - someone that helped fill 40 bloody pages of arguments!

Read: Leans scum. There's one post that I like and the rest appear to be making sure that everyone knows he's around and that he's paying attention.

As a note, I did these all at different times, so they are not all ending at the same spot in the thread. If I'd have gone back and updated to have everyone at the same spot, I'd be at this forever.

I can see the RachMarie vote, but I'm going to VOTE: Wisdom for all the reasons I listed above.

[mcqueen]

@Wisdom - Town.

[Wisdom]

Any specific reason that you think she is town?

[mcqueen]

Managed to get through this at work

Pirate mollie/B&B pings and notes:

Spoiler:

post 73 (paraphrasing) "Hey doesn't HD look scummy? I'll keep my RSV vote."

post 99
This post explains why Wisdom's defending pings so hard. It is difficult to read someone that is defending you as scum, especially if you end up both attacking the same person.

post 322 This gives me a very good read on this slot. If it was the last interaction or the interactions remained similar, I could see it as two new scums where one suddenly realized that they couldn't be this connected to each other, but a) I don't think either is new & b) there wasn't a continuing distancing. At the time it felt like mollie realizing how close Wisdom was associating himself with her and finding it suspicious. Apparently, that didn't last.

post 553 This confuses me, If you think D_O is scummy here for sucking up to you, why isn't Wisdom for his (ARGH, WoT is going to make that gender hard! Apologies in advance for where I'll get this wrong.) earlier defenses of mollie?

Read: town, but mostly because Wisdom reads scum and I don't see two scum playing this way.

Tigerzone/CF Riot pings and notes:

Spoiler:

Tigerzone was a jerk. Moving on.

post 784 Death threats or not, I liked this post.

post 839 I know you explained it later, but the sudden jump to Mitellos with no explanation was odd. Also, why "about that time?"

Read: town

PetroleumJelly/Disturbed_One pings and notes:

Spoiler:

post 161 The only real post from PJ in the game and it's one of the best in the thread.

post 179 Yep, total town feeling post, I was surprised that so many people where surprised that HD called it that way.

post 181Obvious call, but a good post.

post 382 I'll look for the saying one thing/doing another in my Wisdom reread, the multiple defense posts were what pinged on my first read. The second half of this feels like reading to much into a cut in the quote. Also, I'll make a mental note to never assume D_O is asking a rhetorical question.

post 414 A) I feel your pain. B) I think you were way too hard on mollie, there was content in what she was posting. I agree with you that you can't just gloss over scum tells with "but that's how X plays!" but I think you went overboard on the idea that mollie wasn't posting anything of worth.

post 814 Wishy-washy? How? This sounds like trying to throw every bad thing you can think of at him. You're actually saying "you keep doing X - that's wishy-washy!"

Read: town
fuzzy/mcqueen

Spoiler:

post 35
Ugh. Was Fuzzy new? Because this is classic "I want to look as pro-town as I can so I'll say the most obvious thing ever"

post 53 Again.

post 130 I don't even understand this.

post 243 I don't think I saw this the first time through - why are there so many people jumping up to defend mollie?

post 256 I'm not sure why this one hit me as scummy, but it really did.

post 354 now this post... The first part is great, and I'm relatively convinced that that's happening. The last part, unless that was a total joke it's not only annoying, it's total scum. You tell me where to put my vote so I'm not responsible for it. (I'm going to assume it was a joke, given that it could have been.)

post 499For anyone that didn't understand why mcqueen was voting for Wisdom, here is the explanation. The really sad part is that after a massive scum read on fuzzy, mcqueen started to rehabilitate the slot for me with his initial reads. Well, things he was pointing out.

post 605 And then he blew it all to hell.

Read: definitely leans scum. I don't do meta, I'm not going to go back and look for mcqueen's games, but the read is mostly off of fuzzy's posts anyway as mcqueen seems to be the type of player that I can't read.

KMD:

Spoiler:

post 610

Regarding your take on the policy lynch, the problem isn't just that the town doesn't get information on the lynchee, they get very little information on anyone else in the town. Even if you get lucky and hit a scum target, anyone who's not on the lynch says "Um, policy lynch, of course I didn't jump on" and anyone who might be bussing says "have you seen how that person posts, of course I wanted to get rid of him or her." So, no, it's not that bad for scum to get rid of an anti-town player with a pro-town orientation (in fact, it's probably bad in that sense, because they get rid of someone that the town is going to continually focus on) but the waste of the day is good for them.

Wait - your vote for mollie wasn't a joke? Then what was it?

fuzzy may have already asked, but it's a damn good question all the same.

I agree with ProHawk, that the line about him not looking obvtown like he did elsewhere, is a nasty little insert.

You noted that Siv & ThePuck's tiger votes looked opportunistic, and didn't mention D_O, why is he included in your "one of three is scum" but ProHawk isn't - especially after you just said that ProHawk doesn't look as obvtown as usual?

Read: Null, leaning scum - there's just not a lot there to work with, he made one large post with information where bits of it pinged, as mentioned above but other than that all we're getting is posting enough to stay in the game.

HD

Spoiler:

post 88 I like this post.

post 210 Follows up the last one that I said I liked with an expansion of the reads on Wisdom and mollie, explains his current concern with the tigerzone wagon. Another good post.

post 222 Exactly. I can see "Hey, you're being mean, stop it" defenses of another player. When someone is actually finding things that they find suspicious about another player, it's fine to give an altering read but jumping in to actively defend is a really scum move. Among other things, the player should be the one responding to it so that we can get their reaction to the evidence. (There's probably a side note here that I really hate meta arguments. I don't really care how someone plays in another game. I care what they are doing in this game.) The other problem, of course, is that it really easy for a player to say "Hey, player Y is defending me, he or she can tell that I'm town. He or she must be pro-town as well." There's a reason that buddying is considered a scum tell.

post 233 Another good post.

post 856
I'm not sure I appreciate you calling someone out for not attempting to break up an argument in which you were a full participant. The rest of this is rational.

Read: Town. Seems to be scum hunting. Reverses his reads when something makes it questionable. "Tunnels," yes, but who doesn't? I especially like the mollie reversal when it began to look more and more like Wisdom was buddying up to her.

Mitellos:

Spoiler:

post 123
Liked this post. Normally the @mod things are slightly annoying because it feels like a way to get a word in without actually saying anything, but the rest of the post goes on to make some analysis, so that part's null.

post 195 I agree with you about policy lynches, but you completely misrepresented the tigerzone wagon. Noone wanted to policy lynch tigerzone because of the zab policy lynch. HD & DO wanted to lynch him because they found the PL scummy and the others wanted to policy lynch him because his actions caused someone else to actually quit this game in protest.

post 565
Siv's too quiet to be anything but null.

post 819 Siv's the next highest scum read after HD. B&B's case is mentioned here, so there might be a reason I missed in ISO. (Yep, looking back, B&B did give a response on Siv that pretty much echoes how I've been thinking. Mitellos stopped asking about Siv and then, next time he was mentioned was second most scummy. Seems reasonable.)

post 942 Another good post.

Read: Town


ProHawk:

Spoiler:

post 154A very good explanation of why mollie looked scummy in the early game.

post 369
And the explanation for the Wisdom wagon. Also, I completely agree with the "scum won't work so hard" analysis.

post 696
I completely agree, but kind of love "show me a game where using information from another game was helpful!"

post 989 Meh, I've mentioned somewhere else that I hate @mod posts that don't do anything else because it's a way to look like you're keeping up and contributing without actually adding to the conversation, but Rach was pretty much spamming the thread anyway at that point, so that's not a big deal. Unless you picked up from it that she was claiming day 1, I don't see that it's that much of a issue. It's not like soft claiming a power role in this game means anything. I find the slot scummy as hell, but I'm not sure that's what would have made me flip to vote her.

Read: Well, it was town until the Rach vote with a weak argument. Now I guess it's "leans town."

SIV/Rach:

Spoiler:

post 174 Paraphrasing: "I hate a policy lynch, but we have to do so and tigerzone has more votes"

post 438 Paraphrasing: "tigerzone lynch is dead"

post 515Paraphrasing: "and no one seems to be going with ThePuck."

post 883There are things that are obviously jokes and there are things that are jokes that stomp on your toes and punch you in the nose. When there are actually serious reasons to suspect people, votes for such things are ludicrous. (I could almost see a frustration "quit joking around" vote. I've considered it. But an "I'm going to take this obvious joke seriously" vote?)

post 939
A) Out of all of Mitellos' posts, that offhand comment to mcqueen being, um, mcqueen, was all you saw to comment on and it gave you a town read?
B) Have you READ this thread? A little less of the same argument over and over would be a very good thing.

post 954 WTH? D_O posts an intro that gives distinct reads on everyone when he replaces into the game. And then spends another 32 pages telling us exactly what he thinks and you vote him because he hasn't posted that list updated since then?

post 956 Seriously, you don't have any idea what D_O is thinking? He's been pretty damn bloody clear.

Read: Scum.

Slimer:

Spoiler:

Right. There was something to analyze.

Read: WTFEver.

Wisdom:

Spoiler:

post 55 This post I like. Here Wisdom is looking for things that don't make sense in what other people do.

post 71 As I said to someone above, the problem with a policy lynch isn't so much that it takes away the towns chance to get information from the lynchee, it takes away the ability to get information from the rest of the town.

post 78I can see where Wisdom's coming from in this one. Lynch anyone who wants a policy lynch!!1 is, ah, counterproductive

post 126 Yeah, it's been called out by others, but "that person that I don't have a problem with did the same thing as the person that I do have a problem with. Huh, lynch the guy I already had a problem with, he's obvscum."

post 150 Defends mollie.

post 152 Defends mollie.

post 155Defends mollie.

post 157 I'm not defending mollie. Defends mollie.

post 159 Defends mollie.

post 162 I'm NOT defending mollie, I am defending tigerzone. Defends mollie.

post 182 The infamous "lynching town" comment, which is AWFUL. Also? Defends mollie.

post 229You do realize that there is a difference between, "ok, that read as town to me" and "Why would you think that's scummy, they are always like that." Especially when the first is not in response to someone else calling it scummy, but giving a read. No one has commented on your analysis that slimer looks town. You've made a call and let the town know what you think. That's fine. If HD had started telling everyone that their reads on D_O were off - then you'd have a comparison. (And if tis happened in one of the posts that I admittedly skimmed through because you all were sying the same thing post after post, please point it out to me.)

post 245Laying the groundwork for a backpedal.

post 262 The second such and such is a townie post. (And after saying numerous times that he didn't even have a town read on mollie.

post 264 Defending mollie.

post 286 I hate meta arguments. This is a large part of why - I'm not going to go skimming back through other games of people I'm playing with. If nothing else, I don't have that kind of time.

post 295Why? Is mollie incapable of defending herself? Because it doesn't particularly seem like that is the case.

post 334 It's the backpedal, but it comes with reasoning to move over and some idea of who else he finds suspicious. I'm ok with this.

post 373 Why would HD trying to push your lynch and mollie's make mollie town, even if he is scum? Scum bus each other. Even better, if HDscum has linked you and mollie in people's minds and you come up town... mollie looks pretty good, doesn't she? Also, you were the one that linked mollie and you together, not HD.

post 383 (Not a paraphrase) "It's not even like I defended anyone, I just shot down the accusations on mollie and slimer because they were bullshit - I am not sure either of them is town though."
I'm not defending them, all I did was defend them! Also, it's totally crap to claim that I'm doing things that I don't believe in, I'm just defending people that I don't know are innocent.

post 460 Defending does not have anything to do with the quality of the arguments that are made against a person. Defending is simply speaking up in their defense. Again, this is bad for two reasons:
A) It makes it so that the person that is being called scum does not have to answer the arguments themselves. If the argument was completely invalid, why not let mollie respond to it?
B) It makes a town player more likely to trust you, unless they are being careful. This is why scum like to do it. (And it's the answer to the above question, because it makes mollie more likely to trust you.)

Read: Scum

Zab:

Spoiler:

Before going into a pbpa: I think zab got off a little easy in the policy lynch debacle and find it interesting that people where calling out tigerzone for it but never really noticed that zab was doing the exact same thing.

post 298 So many reasons that that is silly.
A) Depending on the length of a game, telling someone to go read it is hours of commitment. And there's no reason to assume that they will see the same thing that you are thinking of. If people insist on using meta, then they need to point out what the hell they are talking about.
B) Have you seen the massive output that HD has put into this game?

post 335 I like this move.

post 726 Have I mentioned how much I really dislike the @mod posts? And why? Posts that don't contribute to the conversation are the epitome of active lurking. It's less noticeable than someone that pops in right before or after a prod and gives a quick nothing post, but it's just as bad.

post 778 I think this one was at D_O and, again, it's a dig that someone else isn't putting effort into the game - someone that helped fill 40 bloody pages of arguments!

Read: Leans scum. There's one post that I like and the rest appear to be making sure that everyone knows he's around and that he's paying attention.

As a note, I did these all at different times, so they are not all ending at the same spot in the thread. If I'd have gone back and updated to have everyone at the same spot, I'd be at this forever.

I can see the RachMarie vote, but I'm going to VOTE: Wisdom for all the reasons I listed above.

Hmm. You've inspired me to play better again.

P-Edit - I don't see anything very scummy coming from her, except for one post, which I'll try to find in a minute. So I'm calling her Town.

[mcqueen]

It was either 973, 990, or 992, I can't remember.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

From pathetically weak reasoned town reads to agreeable scum reads, thanks for proving that my scum read on your slot is correct, Jalyn. Much appreciated.

[Wisdom]

post 182 The infamous "lynching town" comment, which is AWFUL. Also? Defends mollie.

Why is it awful? I had a townread on tiger and I felt scum were taking advantage of the situation to excuse a town lynch and call it PL because "tiger was rude" which I completely disagreed with. Also why do you call it "infamous"? Nobody has referred to it before or called it scummy.

post 229You do realize that there is a difference between, "ok, that read as town to me" and "Why would you think that's scummy, they are always like that." Especially when the first is not in response to someone else calling it scummy, but giving a read. No one has commented on your analysis that slimer looks town. You've made a call and let the town know what you think. That's fine. If HD had started telling everyone that their reads on D_O were off - then you'd have a comparison. (And if tis happened in one of the posts that I admittedly skimmed through because you all were sying the same thing post after post, please point it out to me.)

HD had called D_O town/ defended D_O/ call it whatever you want because of meta. But at the same time found my " meta defense" of tiger/slimer/mollie to be scummy, which seemed hypocritical.

post 245Laying the groundwork for a backpedal.

No. The way HD insisted made me believe he might be actually town tunneling on me, which happens to me a lot. I expressed this thought.

post 262 The second such and such is a townie post. (And after saying numerous times that he didn't even have a town read on mollie.

And indeed I didn't, but as I have already said the way HD pushed it made me believe he's probably scum pushing two fake scumreads, and that's what I expressed.

post 286 I hate meta arguments. This is a large part of why - I'm not going to go skimming back through other games of people I'm playing with. If nothing else, I don't have that kind of time.

If you rely on a single game, you'll find more scummy-looking things than you would if you knew that they are normal for that person, and it's way more likely you'll be misled and accuse the wrong people.

post 295Why? Is mollie incapable of defending herself? Because it doesn't particularly seem like that is the case.

mollie is perfectly capable of defending herself, but I see no reason to let what I consider bullshit arguments to float around. If I have something to post, I'll post it. I am not gonna wait for mollie to come and post.

post 373 Why would HD trying to push your lynch and mollie's make mollie town, even if he is scum? Scum bus each other. Even better, if HDscum has linked you and mollie in people's minds and you come up town... mollie looks pretty good, doesn't she? Also, you were the one that linked mollie and you together, not HD.

It doesn't. That's what I felt at that moment, that HD-scum was pushing two townies. That's what I expressed. Sure he wouldn't be able to keep linking us in the long term, but that's irrelevant.

post 383 (Not a paraphrase) "It's not even like I defended anyone, I just shot down the accusations on mollie and slimer because they were bullshit - I am not sure either of them is town though."
I'm not defending them, all I did was defend them! Also, it's totally crap to claim that I'm doing things that I don't believe in, I'm just defending people that I don't know are innocent.

Only that's no defending. As I have said many times, if I read bullshit, I'll respond to it. That doesn't equal townreads on the ones the bullshit were about.

post 460 Defending does not have anything to do with the quality of the arguments that are made against a person. Defending is simply speaking up in their defense. Again, this is bad for two reasons:
A) It makes it so that the person that is being called scum does not have to answer the arguments themselves. If the argument was completely invalid, why not let mollie respond to it?
B) It makes a town player more likely to trust you, unless they are being careful. This is why scum like to do it. (And it's the answer to the above question, because it makes mollie more likely to trust you.)

I agree, defending is bad. What I did was not defending.

The rest of your accusations are "defending, defending, defending", and once again I don't consider what I did defending. So bad accusations.

I have not read your reads on others, but you're not beginning too good and I didn't like The Puck either. Gonna read now.

[Jalyn]

Defending does not imply that the attacks are justified or unjustified. It merely means that you responded to the attack in order to negate it.

Person A: "Jalyn is a big meanie"
Person B: "No, Jalyn is nice. Look at all of these nice things she did."

It so happens that Jalyn is nice and and not a big meanie, but person B would still be defending me.

If the point of it was only that scum defend people from things that aren't true, it wouldn't matter. No matter how dense a person is, if someone is defending you from something that's objectively true, your going to see it and realize it's happening and it wouldn't be a favored scum move.

Person A: "Jalyn posts really long posts!"
Person B: "No, Jalyn has nice short concise posts."
Jalyn: WTF? Why are you lying on my behalf? That's just weird. Vote Person B.

I have to head home, I'll hit the rest of your bullets later.

@B&B - I live to please.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

And I find myself scrolling through the Jalyn/Wisdom argument, giving not a single fuck.

[Wisdom]

Yeah. Once again, here it's how it happened:

mollie accusor: mollie does x action, she's scum.
Wisdom: Not necessarily, mollie does x action as town too.

Analysis that happened:
Wisdom implies that she does not do that as scum.
Wisdom implies that she's town.
Wisdom defends her.
Wisdom is scum with her or Wisdom is scum WKing her.
Wisdom is scum, let's vote Wisdom.

Truth:
Wisdom says that mollie does x action as town too, therefore x action is not anything to go by. It does not mean she doesn't do it as scum, and it does not mean she's town or scum.
Wisdom attacked the accusation and called it bad.
Wisdom did not defend mollie.

Clear?

[zabriel]

Rach stepped up her play a little bit after the claim, and the fact that she's claimed to be tonight's doctor has got me feeling less inclined to join the Rach wagon. Still scummy, but looking better than before.

[N]

Vote Count 1.23

Disturbed_One

( 2 ) Wisdom , RachMarie

Mitillos

( 0 )

kmd4390

( 0 )

RachMarie

(replaced Siveure DtTrikyp)

( 5 ) kmd4390 , CF Riot , BeautyAndTheBeast , Human Destroyer , ProHawk

ProHawk

( 1 ) theslimer3

mcqueen

( 0 )

theslimer3

( 0 )

BeautyAndTheBeast

( 0 )

Wisdom

( 3 ) Disturbed_One , mcqueen , Jalyn

zabriel

( 0 )

CF Riot

( 0 )

Jalyn

(replaced The Puck)

( 0 )

Human Destroyer

( 1 ) Mitillos

Not voting:

zabriel

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline is in

(expired on 2013-02-28 20:30:20)

zabriel is V/LA until 28th of Feb

[Kmd4390]

Rach, not sure about the wagon because I haven't read that part but I'm pretty sure you are scum based on siv's play. If I'm wrong, there's a scum or two on your wagon just based on Day 1 statistics.

Didn't know you claimed.

Not sure about wisdom or human but disturbed might be scum.

[RachMarie]

Yeah I had claimed and yet they still want to lynch me Kmd.

If there is not scum involvement in that then I will eat my words post game. I even offered to have them lynch me tomorrow if I was not NKed tonight by the scum. I am at a loss here. I thought everyone knew how Siv plays. His lurking and then periodically laying down a vote is a null tell for him cause he does it both as scum and town. Oh well Town can still win. But it bites not getting to protect someone. Meanwhile I still need to do Hawk's ISO.

[zabriel]

VOTE: DO

I'd really rather not risk having no protection tonight. I feel pretty okay about the case on DO. I can do this or Mitillos today.

[Kmd4390]

What was the claim?

My scum read on siv had nothing to do with activity or voting.

[RachMarie]

Prohawk I think is in the Town pile. There is something I can't put my finger on, but his posts read town to me. So putting him Leaning Town.

Pedit Kmd I am a Night 1 Doc. After that I am basically useless save for my vote.

[Jalyn]

post 182 The infamous "lynching town" comment, which is AWFUL. Also? Defends mollie.

Why is it awful? I had a townread on tiger and I felt scum were taking advantage of the situation to excuse a town lynch and call it PL because "tiger was rude" which I completely disagreed with. Also why do you call it "infamous"? Nobody has referred to it before or called it scummy.

Huh. After a quick check back, I guess I meant infamous in my head because I can't find anyone else mentioning it. And it's awful because, at the very worst, as town you would know that people were setting up a lynch you disagreed with, by definition, if you are town, you don't know when you're lynching town. Basically, it implies knowledge that you wouldn't have unless you're scum - classic slip.

post 229You do realize that there is a difference between, "ok, that read as town to me" and "Why would you think that's scummy, they are always like that." Especially when the first is not in response to someone else calling it scummy, but giving a read. No one has commented on your analysis that slimer looks town. You've made a call and let the town know what you think. That's fine. If HD had started telling everyone that their reads on D_O were off - then you'd have a comparison. (And if tis happened in one of the posts that I admittedly skimmed through because you all were sying the same thing post after post, please point it out to me.)

HD had called D_O town/ defended D_O/ call it whatever you want because of meta. But at the same time found my " meta defense" of tiger/slimer/mollie to be scummy, which seemed hypocritical.

It wasn't the "meta" part that was scummy, it was the defending part.

post 245Laying the groundwork for a backpedal.

No. The way HD insisted made me believe he might be actually town tunneling on me, which happens to me a lot. I expressed this thought.

I'll let it go. If I didn't think you were scum already, it might not have pinged.

post 262 The second such and such is a townie post. (And after saying numerous times that he didn't even have a town read on mollie.

And indeed I didn't, but as I have already said the way HD pushed it made me believe he's probably scum pushing two fake scumreads, and that's what I expressed.

I gave an answer in the original post. It's quoted below.

post 286 I hate meta arguments. This is a large part of why - I'm not going to go skimming back through other games of people I'm playing with. If nothing else, I don't have that kind of time.

If you rely on a single game, you'll find more scummy-looking things than you would if you knew that they are normal for that person, and it's way more likely you'll be misled and accuse the wrong people.

Yep, and if I stick around long enough to get to know people again, I'll presumably have people that I know in the same way. I understand playing by your own meta reads, when I have them, I'll use them. At the same time, I signed up for this game and only this game because I only have time for one game. That doesn't mean that I'll ignore other people's meta-reads, btw, just that I'm certainly not going back and reading other games.

post 295Why? Is mollie incapable of defending herself? Because it doesn't particularly seem like that is the case.

mollie is perfectly capable of defending herself, but I see no reason to let what I consider bullshit arguments to float around. If I have something to post, I'll post it. I am not gonna wait for mollie to come and post.

But then we lose what mollie had to say on the issue. She no longer has to come up with an original reason for something that another player found scummy. Especially when you were clear that you didn't have a town read on her, why not let her answer what the player has to say? Maybe she'll slip. Maybe she'll notice something scummy about the attack that you missed. That's why I keep saying that there are two issues with it.

post 373 Why would HD trying to push your lynch and mollie's make mollie town, even if he is scum? Scum bus each other. Even better, if HDscum has linked you and mollie in people's minds and you come up town... mollie looks pretty good, doesn't she? Also, you were the one that linked mollie and you together, not HD.

It doesn't. That's what I felt at that moment, that HD-scum was pushing two townies. That's what I expressed. Sure he wouldn't be able to keep linking us in the long term, but that's irrelevant.

Except, it's not irrelevant. You're claiming that HD was linking you to set up two mislynches, if it's impossible that he could keep up the link to achieve this, his purpose becomes void.

post 383 (Not a paraphrase) "It's not even like I defended anyone, I just shot down the accusations on mollie and slimer because they were bullshit - I am not sure either of them is town though."
I'm not defending them, all I did was defend them! Also, it's totally crap to claim that I'm doing things that I don't believe in, I'm just defending people that I don't know are innocent.

Only that's no defending. As I have said many times, if I read bullshit, I'll respond to it. That doesn't equal townreads on the ones the bullshit were about.

post 460 Defending does not have anything to do with the quality of the arguments that are made against a person. Defending is simply speaking up in their defense. Again, this is bad for two reasons:
A) It makes it so that the person that is being called scum does not have to answer the arguments themselves. If the argument was completely invalid, why not let mollie respond to it?
B) It makes a town player more likely to trust you, unless they are being careful. This is why scum like to do it. (And it's the answer to the above question, because it makes mollie more likely to trust you.)

I agree, defending is bad. What I did was not defending.

The rest of your accusations are "defending, defending, defending", and once again I don't consider what I did defending. So bad accusations.

I have not read your reads on others, but you're not beginning too good and I didn't like The Puck either. Gonna read now.

I already answered this.

And I find myself scrolling through the Jalyn/Wisdom argument, giving not a single fuck.

Now you know how I felt for about 30 pages. Oh, wait, no you don't because I'm not going to back and forth this for pages.

Yeah. Once again, here it's how it happened:

mollie accusor: mollie does x action, she's scum.
Wisdom: Not necessarily, mollie does x action as town too.

Analysis that happened:
Wisdom implies that she does not do that as scum.
Wisdom implies that she's town.
Wisdom defends her.
Wisdom is scum with her or Wisdom is scum WKing her.
Wisdom is scum, let's vote Wisdom.

Truth:
Wisdom says that mollie does x action as town too, therefore x action is not anything to go by. It does not mean she doesn't do it as scum, and it does not mean she's town or scum.
Wisdom attacked the accusation and called it bad.
Wisdom did not defend mollie.

Clear?

Your argument has ALWAYS been clear. I'm trying to make clear to you why I completely disagree with it. If you were attacking the argument and saying that arguer was scum for the argument (which isn't how it started) then you would have a point. Does that make my viewpoint clear?

[mcqueen]

And I find myself scrolling through the Jalyn/Wisdom argument, giving not a single fuck.

VOTE: DO

I'd really rather not risk having no protection tonight. I feel pretty okay about the case on DO. I can do this or Mitillos today.

You finally vote. And you vote this joker. Get your vote off a lynch that will not happen today. It's between RachMarie and Wisdom. Period.

[zabriel]

Oh sweet god, that damn game is finally over.

Micro 118 for anybody interested in the history between tiger and myself.

[mcqueen]

Yeah I had claimed and yet they still want to lynch me Kmd.

If there is not scum involvement in that then I will eat my words post game. I even offered to have them lynch me tomorrow if I was not NKed tonight by the scum. I am at a loss here. I thought everyone knew how Siv plays. His lurking and then periodically laying down a vote is a null tell for him cause he does it both as scum and town. Oh well Town can still win. But it bites not getting to protect someone. Meanwhile I still need to do Hawk's ISO.

I missed this.

It would be useless for Scum to NK you tonight. After tonight, you become a mere Townie. If they kill you tonight, you can still use your ability, therefore there is no point in wasting an NK on you, unless they have a better reason to.

[mcqueen]

Anyone voting non-viable lynches for today, needs to remove their vote. It's getting annoying how people who haven't voted for half the time, come in and join a wagon that isn't happening today.

That is heavily directed at zabriel, along with a few others.

Kmd, please finish reading, and stop basing reads off of Siv. He did the thing he felt right, to replace out, due to him losing interest in the game. Stop trying to find clues within him, he's gone, and discussing him now has no purpose or advantage. If you're that far behind, skip to page 30 or so, and read from there. If you're not even to page 30, yet, you should really replace out, and let someone who has time to read replace in.