Mini 370: Reverse Mafia - Game Over!

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, we can't win today. We could lose before day 1, if two out of the three people we raise are scum, but that's not very likely.

Anyway,

vote:Yosarian2

for ressurection, as I know I'm town.

Granted if everyone follows that logic we won't get anywhere, but meh, it's better then a random vote would be at the moment.

On interesting thing about the rules is that it looks like if we get to day 9, when everyone will have been brought back out of limbo, the town wins automatically, as once all pro-town players have been brought back we win even if some have been killed. That's not the only way we can win, but it's interesting to note that time is actually on the town's side for once.

[Yosarian2]

Another discussion point on how the stratagy of this game would work. If someone has role-based information, would it be worthwhile to share it early? Usually it's not good to reveal confirmed innocents or whatever too early, but in this game the first 3 people we pick are going to play a major role in how the game goes, so anything that increases the odds of good guys being picked helps us a lot.

[Yosarian2]

There's really no reason to have power-roles claim at this point. The key part of the game, I think, is going to be if scum take over the town when there's 4 or 5 people alive, and if they can kill off power roles early, that'll be easier for them. Besides, scum roleblockers are possible anyway.

However, as you have claimed, could you tell us a little more about how it works? Can you use your power while still in libo? Can you target other people in limbo?

[Yosarian2]

The mod said that night choices are made by living players. Those choices must target living players

...when did the mod say any of that? I don't see it in the rules. In fact, he just said that a cop may or may not be able to target people in limbo, and that he wouldn't confirm that either way.

[Yosarian2]

Ah, that's where it is. Ok, thanks.

Hmmm...this is going to be tricky. If a scum gets ressurected, we won't be able to lynch him, right? Looking at the rules, it looks like we don't get to lynch people, although it does look like scum will be able to kill people. I assume there is some way the town can kill a scum that has been revived, probably a vig or some kind of vig-like pro-town, because one of the ways the town can win is "if all scum are dead", but we certanly won't be able to rely on there being a vig currently alive (and not in limbo or dead) at any point in the game.

All of our normal mafia stratagy needs to be rethought here. It seems to me that the most useful pro-town role might be a vig or whatever pro-town killing role(s) we have, if he (or they) are the only way we have to get rid of scum for good. Role-blocker is a close second, as he could at least lock down a scum and stop him from killing even if we can't kill him. On the other hand, if a cop can only look at living people to see if they're scum or not, but we can't get easily get rid of a living scum without a vig, a cop would be not nearly so useful as it usually is in a mafia game, although it'd still good to at least know who might be trying to manipulate the rest of us into revivinghis scumbuddy.

That being said, here's a thought; roleblocker seems like it will be a very useful role in this game, at least at certain points. (IE:if there's one living scum, and we have a pretty good idea who it is, being able to block that kill, even if just for a few days, could dramatically increase the town's chances of winning; not to mention the normal investigative-ish power a roleblocker generally has). However, if we bring back the roleblocker right away, especally now that he's claimed, he very well might just get nightkilled by the scum without being useful; if there is a doctor, the odds of him being alive whenver the scum first start killing is probably fairly small. On the other hand, we could leave him in limbo for now, where he can't be killed, and then bring him out into play when the situation is right (say, if we think there's only one scum currently alive and a cop has just pointed out who that scum is then could bring him into play and then he could right away roleblock the only scum, or when we have reaosn to believe there might be a pro-town doc alive stopping kills, or if the town seems to be in trouble and badly needs help right away; probably in some other situations as well). Sort of like in chess, where you should never bring out your queen in the opening game.

On the other hand, a roleblocker might be very useful when there's only a few people alive, if if he's lucky.

On the OTHER other hand, even if he does stop a scumkill on night 2 or perhaps night 3 (remember, no kills allowed on night 1, and even if there is a scum it sounds like there's a random factor about when he'll be allowed to start killing), he won't know it; if there's no kill, it might mean there are no scum, or there is a scum and he hasn't been allowed to started killing yet, or there might be a doctor, or the scum might just be messing with us. Even a sucessfull roleblock wouldn't give us information unless we have reason to believe that a kill is missing, and we won't have any way of knowing that until the scum manage to start killing.

I'm a bit confused by all of this myself honestly but I think we really need to do some serious stratigic thinking here, and I also REALLY think we need to make sure that no one else roleclaims until we figure out how we should do all of this.

[Yosarian2]

Addunendum: And of course, all of the above only works if themanhimself is who he says he is...and we have no way of testing his claim unless he is revived, after which point we probably wouldn't be able to kill him if he's lying. Yeah, I'm not really seeing how claims are going to help the town much at all this game, as there dosn't seem to be any way to test them until it's too late.

[Yosarian2]

Therefore, the question is:
Should we be more concerned about the scum in limbo (which would make investigation roles a priority), or about the living scum (which would make roleblocker/doc/vig/etc. the most valuable)?

Except, it sounds like investigative roles probably won't be able to target people in limbo, as that line Chaotic pointed out said that you can only target "living players". If I'm reading that right, it would mean that a cop would only be able to target people we've already revived. Which, don't get me wrong, is useful information.

Chaotic_Diablo- Actually, the mod is saying 'I won't tell you' which is slightly different.

Crash- Good Choice. Smile Also, do you believe claiming to be against the spirit of this game? What makes you think that? To answer your question, at the moment I am most concerned with the scum in limbo, for obvious reasons.

TheManHimself- I am not liking your claim. Roleblocker is a role often given to scum (although it looks like we can't take anything for granted in this game). Plus, something about you seems a little off. I will not be supporting your wagon at this time.

The most powerful roleblocker and doc in this game is probably the setup itself. As long as the scum are sleeping, they cannot hurt us. So I suggest that we scumhunt in the normal way, and then ban scummy people from ascendancy. At the moment I am slightly suspicious of Yos, for being supportive of the roleblocker and Vig, and subtly undermining the cop. Plus, he’s clearly smarter than me, which makes him very dangerous.

I agree that we should have no more claims for now, but I still think mass-claiming is a good idea. It forces the scum to decide quickly if they will claim a power role, which means they have to risk both that there will be no counterclaims and also that they can fake the role convincingly. IMO forcing scum to take risks is a good strategy.

1. Of course, the best way to win would be to avoid bringing back scum alltogether. That's also the fastest way to win; we win if half of all pro-town players are alive, so assuming there are 2-3 scum, we if we can avoid reviving scum we'd be able to win once there are 5 good guys alive, which would happen on day 2. That being said, "scum-hunting the normal way" won't be as simple as you make it sound; for one thing, voting records are not going to be easy to use at all.

2. A mass-claim sounds like a very bad, very idea to me. I don't see how counterclaims will help us; after all, in this kind of set-up, there might be multiple vigs, or multiple docs, or multiple who knows what, so if two people claim vig, we can't just assume one of them is lying scum. Secondly, we have absolutly no way to test claims until one of the people who claimed has been brought to life, as people can't use their abilities in limbo, and by that time it's basically too late. And thirdly, if we have a mass claim, it'd be hella easy for the scum to slaughter all the power roles right away as we revive them. All in all, it sounds to me like every claim we get helps the scum much more then the town.

[Yosarian2]

Ah, interesting. That does change things a bit.

[Yosarian2]

Mass-claiming is a horrible idea, if only for the reasons Yos explained. Individual claiming however should be useful for deciding who to revive. I know that I wouldn't vote for anyone without knowing that they can be of help to the town. Plus, it is (marginally) harder for scum to be revived without a good claim.

The goal shouldn't be to revive all power-roles at the start of the game. Beside, it's be so much better if the scum don't know what the role of the people we revivie are. Remember, if there's only 1 doc, odds are he won't be alive yet when the scum start killing.

Also, if we expect people to claim before we revivie them, then we'll never revivie the doc, as we REALLY don't want the doc to claim.

BTW, did you want to respond to my thoughts about reviving you? Like I pointed out, if you're telling the truth you've only painted a huge bulls-eye on yourself, and it might be better if we keep you in reserve where you can't be killed until we need your ability, and thus not bring you out into the game right away.

[Yosarian2]

I agree with the previous poster. Yosarian's posts make the most sense to me sofar. I'd be willing to go for his revival.

Not so sure yet about the Roleblocker claim. Someone mentioned it being an ability scum often has. It happens sometimes, but in my experience it's still way more often a protown role. That aside I don't think there will be scum with special abilities in this game, unless they're relatively weak. A scum roleblocker would be extremely strong with only a few players alive. Much stronger than in a regular setting. Still doubting a protown roleblocker as well though. It's a role that I would not put in this game at all, so it makes it harder for me to believe it.

Well, a scum roleblocker wouldn't a big deal unless there's more then 1 scum alive at once, assuming he can't kill and roleblock at the same time, so it probably wouldn't be too game-breaking in the early game.

[Yosarian2]

Yos- Voting records will still be important. If we do revive scum then knowing who voted for them and knowing who subtly encouraged their ascension will be useful to us.
Also, no response at all to the fact I find you suspicious?

(shrug) You said I was suspicious for "trying to sublty undermine the cop". I'm not even sure what that means in this case; it's not like I was trying to undermine a claimed cop or anything like that, i was just discussing the relitive value of different roles because it's different then it would be in a normal game. Anyway, that was when I thought no living player could target anyone in limbo, before the mod clarification; a cop who could investiage people still in limbo would of course be incredibly useful.

Yos- What exactly is the problem with trying to revive the power roles? Don’t forget the setup acts as a doc, as long as the scum are dead.

Well, the problem is that we can't revivie power roles unless they claim, and if they claim and there's no doc in play yet they're dead once the scum start killing.

I am alarmed at the speed of the Yossarian bandwagon. I’m pretty sure not everyone has checked in yet. Let us wait until everyone has spoken at least once, please, before decided who to enervate.

unvote

Yeah, I agree we need everyone has said something before we decide anything.

[Yosarian2]

Crash, can you please explain any reasoning for your vote on reviving Yos?

You know that if Yos turns up scum I'm going to be looking at you pretty heavily.


I think I like the idea that M4yhem suggested where we don't necessarily listen to arguments of players who have already been revived, for these first few nights at least (until day starts). This does have a good chance of reviving a mafia player if we do this, but I'd rather have 1 mafia 2 town than a chance at 2+ mafia.

(shrug) Well, you and m4yhem can listen to or ignore whatever arguments you want to, that's your perogitive. However, I want to hear from everyone and see votes from everyone every day, including the people we revivie. How else are we going to figure out if they are scum or not except by listening to their arguments, weighing them, seeing if they use crap logic or misrepresentations or other scum tells, and seeing who supports who?

I think the worst thing we could do would be give anyone who's been revived a licence to lurk.

[Yosarian2]

Then again if there are no multiple roles we could have everyone claiming and if there is for example only one doc claim we revive that person but 2 cop claims we don't revive either of those.

Except, what good would that do? The doc would just die. Unless we were in a situation where all we had to do was revive one more good guy in order to win, or something like that, it dosn't sound worth it.

Also we don't have a counter claim for RB which would point out there not being multiple powerroles.

Well, it points to there not being multiple roleblockers. However, I tend to think that it's fairly likely there might be more then one pro-town vig-like role. Just a hunch on my part, but if vigs are the only way to get rid of scum that have been revived, I hope there's more then one anyway.

Yos2 posts good but then again it doesn't matter whether you are town or scum analyzing the setup is always gonna look the same.

Well, if you don't want to revive me today, offer another suggestion. Who do you think we should revive?

[Yosarian2]

Hmmm...don't really feel like I have enough information to pick two people right now.

I can tell you I wouldn't vote for m4hem at this time, basically because I've disagreed with almost everything he's said so far this game. Disagreeing with me isn't a scum tell, of course, but I'm starting to wonder if he's intentionally giving the town bad stratagy advice, like his suggestion that we massclaim for example. And I wouldn't vote for themanhimself, for reasons I explained before (even if he is telling the truth, we still probably don't want to revive him right away, now that he's claimed). I've got a feeling that it's more likely then not that themanhimself is telling the truth, as I'm not sure that a scum wanting to take a gambit would claim roleblocker at that point, but still I'd rather wait until we have need of a roleblocker before we bring him out into play.

If I had to pick one person to revive right now right now, it'd probably be chaotic diablo; he was observent when it came to the mod post and the set-up and seems to have been both thinking about how it would affect the game and what it might mean; I tend to consider that kind of stratigic thinking at least a small pro-town tell. Otherwise, though, I'm really not sure; there's a lot of people we've heard almost nothing from yet.

[Yosarian2]

Yos- You seem fairly certain that the scum will start killing. Are you just naturally pessimisstixc, or do you have insider knowledge. Again, no revived scum= no scum kills, which is why it’s important we take our time.

(shrug) Well, if we can manage to avoid reviving any of the scum while reviving 5 good guys in a row, then we would probably win on day 2, which would be great. However, I don't think that's especally likely; if there are 3 scum out of 12 people, then on average you would expect 1 out of every 4 people we revivie to be scum.

It would be nice to win without reviving any scum. However, I'm not counting on it. In my experence, flawless victories where the town never lynches the wrong person happen very rarely in mafia, and I'm not counting on it happening this game either.

And you would be against the idea that we don’t listen to you once you’re alive, wouldn’t you, seeing as you’re the front runner. What I want to achieve through that is to avoid any living scum manipulating us into bringing in their buddies. Have you got a better idea on how to achieve that? Lurking scum in this setting would be much less of a threat then normal, I would have thought, since it seems like the most verbose people will be the ones getting revived. If you disagree, explain why.

I don't see why you're especally worried about living scum manipulating us now in the pregame, when we can all vote. What doesn't make any sense to me is the idea that we should revive the person we think is most likely to be pro-town, and then completly ignore whatever that person says. If we were right, then we need to hear what that person has to say, and if we make a mistake and do revive a scum before day 1, then we need that person to keep talking so that he has a chance to slip up and give himself away, hopefully before we get to day 1 when he'd be 1/3 of the voting people in the town.

Twito- Yeah, I don’t see why just because we don’t know the setup we have to assume that any crazy combination is possible. I agree that if we had two cop claims we would treat both with caution.

This is a very different game then a normal mafia game, and I don't see any reason expect the pro-town roles the mod put in to be exactally what they'd be in a normal game.

I'm starting to wonder if he's intentionally giving the town bad stratagy advice,

Ditto. “Let’s ignore the voting record, townsfolk. It won’t tell us anything.”

Ok, now that is a complete misrepresentation of what I said, and that kind of misrepresentation IS a scum tell on your part.

What I said was:

That being said, "scum-hunting the normal way" won't be as simple as you make it sound; for one thing, voting records are not going to be easy to use at all.

I never said we should ignore the voting record. What I said was that voting records will be harder to use then normal, because in a normal game right after the lynch we know the alignment of the person we lynched, and can therefore try to use that fact to draw conclusions about the bandwagon. In this game, even after we elect someone, we still won't know their alignment right away, and we might never be 100% sure of that persons alignment. Now, when we do confirm someone as either town or scum (either through an investigation, or through death, or by some other method), then of course we'll go back and look at the voting record.

And shrug; having bad ideas does not make me scum. It just means I have played fewer games/ thought less carefully about it/ am dumber than you.

No, having bad ideas does not make you scum. However, all I have to go on at this point is the discussion we've had, so of course I'll tend to have a more pro-town feeling about people who are giving the town good advice, as opposed to people who are giving advice that, it seems to me, would hurt the town.

I agree with this completely. (Not the rest of your post though)
I still think we should look for scum in the normal way; see who defends who, who goes quiet when who is mentioned and so forth. At the moment, if voting to lynch, I would vote Yosarian. Yes, he’s very helpful, but that in itself can be a scumtell. I’m getting bad vibes from him.

...

Are you serious? Did you really just say that you think that me "being helpful" is a scumtell? What, good guys aren't supposed to try to figure out what stratagy the town should follow in order to win?

Yos- Are you just a normal townie? If so, what makes you worth reviving over other normal townies, and over powerroles such as themanhimself? Sure, you can talk, but you can do that here; and I’m far more likely to listen to you if I’m not worrying all the time that you’re scum. So what have you got to offer us, eh?

Fishing for my role is another scumtell. There is no way a pro-town person would want me to answer the question about "are you a normal towne".

I'm not sure what you're asking by "what else have you got to offer us". I'm certanly not going to reveal my role at this point, for reasons I've made clear. As to who should be revivied first, all I can say is that we want to revive people who we think are most likely to be pro-town based on their posts. After that, the next think I'm going to be considering is probably that we should try and pick people who seem most likely to make good decisions once they're alive; in the first day or two, their votes will be incredibly important to the town, as there will only be 3 or 4 people voting on those days, so we want to pick people who we think will make good decisions. (shrug) If you don't think that I'm pro-town, or you don't think I'll make good decisions, then vote for someone else.

[Yosarian2]

Are you serious? Did you really just say that you think that me "being helpful" is a scumtell? What, good guys aren't supposed to try to figure out what stratagy the town should follow in order to win?

Completely serious. Good scum will say obviously helpful and protown things, in order to get the towns confidence and avoid being lynched. Are you seriously claiming you’ve never used this strategy yourself in the past, as scum? Obviously the gg are supposed to figure out strategy, yes. That doesn’t mean every helpful player is good.

I never said that "Every helpful player is good". However, when you say that something is a scumtell, you're saying that scum would be more likely to be helpful and say protown things then town does, which seems rather absurd to me. Of course, scum will sometimes give good advice to look pro-town, but that dosn't mean that giving good advice is a scumtell.

Well I happen to know you’re 100% wrong here, but I guess I can’t expect you to take it on trust. Sigh, I guess I have to justfy myself now, don’t I?
I want more information about you. Simple as that. I find you almost impossible to read and every time you post I feel like I’m drowning in a sea of words. Plus, everyone is voting for you. That’s scary. This much consensus suggest the scum are happy with what’s happening.

(shrug) I'm not really sure how I'd expect scum to vote in this game. If a good guy looks almost certain to be revived, I wouldn't be surprised to see scum jumping on the bandwagon in order to make themselves look better.

You could make us promises, or explain what you intend to do with the power we are giving you. I’m not really sure. But you’ve been voting for yourself since you arrived. What make you think you are the best candidate for ascension?

Well, of course if it was up to me, I would rather see someone I know to be pro-town (me) be revivied then someone I don't know to be pro-town. So of course I'm going to vote for myself so long as it looks like I have a decent shot at getting revived. I would expect anyone in this game to do the same, no matter what their role.

As for "promises" about what I'd do if I get picked; hrm. Well, I will say that on day 1, when there's only 3 people alive, I'll hold my vote back for quite a while, ideally until it seems like the whole town has reached a concencess, because when there's only 3 people alive, if one is scum, then all it would take would be one of the good guys to make an incorrect vote and the scum to follow it. It could be sort of a "lynch or lose" situation, in reverse. So I don't want to see any quick votes from the people we revive on day 1, and I certanly wouldn't make one.

TheManHimself- If yellowbounder is lurking, how does that make him dangerous in this game?

Eh...depending on how the game goes, and what win condition we end up playing for, we might end up having to revive all the good guys in order to win without accidently revivng a scum. If so, then in that end-game scenerio, having several lurkers in limbo who may or may not be good guys could be a serious hazard to the town.

We can't ignore lurkers. We can't lynch them either, though, so I guess we'll just have to ask for mod prods and replacements and such.

[Yosarian2]

Yos: This is a perfect game for him to be scum. The guy loves theorizes and he can do all the theorizing he wants which will give him a semblance of being a helpful townie, which is exactly what he has done and it has worked. I insist that we be extra careful who gets in next because I believe was may have a scum in the living already, a second would instantly end the game.

(shrug) Yeah, I do love to theorize and plan statagy and such, especally on day 1 when there's not much else to talk about and especally in unusual setups like this. I don't see why that would make you suspect me, though, as I certanly do that kind of thing at least as much when I'm town, if not more so.

[Yosarian2]

It dosn't feel like we have a whole lot to go on at the moment. M4yhem, did you realize you were casting the last vote at the end of the day yesterday?

Well, if we're going to figure out who are scum and who are good guys, we're going to have to start leaving a voting record. I've still got a bit of a pro-town feeling about CD, like I said yesterday, and as that's the strongest hunch I've got at the moment I might as well back that up with a

vote:chaotic diablo

.

On another note, we still haven't heard from lordy and Mr. Cesar at all, and we've only heard from yellow once. I would suggest that we not revive anyone today untill all three either start posting or get replaced. After all, if we don't get a voting record on certain people before day 1, and they stay in limbo, we won't get a voting record from them after day 1 either.

[Yosarian2]

Cesar:there's nothing wrong with voting for yourself in this game, but it dosn't really advance the game, give us any information, or tell us anything about yourself. What do you think about other people? Other then you, and suggestions about who you think we should or shouldn't revive?

[Yosarian2]

This game is moving too fast don't have time to read everything and make a post about it.

One thing I'm noticing is that some ppl try really hard to be revived and I find this kinda scummy coz in the current situation it's not necasserily advantageus to revive power roles and why would vanilla townie try so hard to be revived?
Right now scum are the ones who definitely want to be revived/want their buddies revived. For town it's not as important.

Huh? Why would town not trying to get revived? That's like saying in a normal game that someone is scummy because they don't want to be lynched. In a normal game, no one, townie, mafia, or power role, would ever want to be lynched, and I would expect everyone to fight as hard as possible to avoid it. In this game, everyone, townie, mafia, or unclaimed power role, would want to be revived, and I would expect everyone to try as hard as possible to be revived.

It's kinda interesting situation really.
On the other hand scum can try to get their buddies revived instead of themselves but then again townie shouldn't be too eagar to be the one revived.

And again, why would a townie not "be too eager" to get revived? Each time any good guy, including a townie, gets revived, the town is one step closer to winning.

One thing to talk about is when it's advantageus for power roles to be revived. When is good time for Doc?, Cop?, RB?

Why? It sounds like discussing when the doc and/or cop should be revived won't do us any good, as we don't and shouldn't know who they are, and that discussion might make it easier for the scum to find the doc and the cop. Not a good idea.

[Yosarian2]

6. Earlier, Tamuz actually made a good point on Yosarian compared to your argument. Tamuz stated that though Yosarian was helpful, it actually isn't helpful because it's all really just speculation and doesn't help us at all. You stated that Yos was scum because he was helpful. Tamuz's argument was more plausible because it revealed the deception under Yos's guise. Your argument was just a bunch of WIFOM logic backed with no reasoning. If Tamuz had stated that earlier, I would probably have reconsidered my vote for Yosarian.

Do you actually think I haven't done anything helpful this game, that all I've done is "speculate"? I think if I haven't posted the way I did, we might have had more claims, which would have been bad. I also think that my point about "when is a good time to revive the roleblocker" was quite helpful in figuring out if we should revive themanhimself this early in the game, and I also shared my observations about the behavior of people like m4hem yesterday. I think I've been as helpfull as anyone else this game.

Tamuz never said that "everything I've done is just speculation and therefore not helpful at all". He said that I always speculate, which is not at all the same thing. I don't like the way you're putting words in his mouth. I also wonder if you're trying to distance yourself from me just because of this:

I am trusting C_D a bit, but because of how closely he seems to be attached to Yos, I'd be against it in case of the chance that they are both scum.

unvote:chaotic_diablo

[Yosarian2]

One thing to talk about is when it's advantageus for power roles to be revived. When is good time for Doc?, Cop?, RB?

I see no harm in answering this question, but what do the rest of you think?

Well, like I said, if we discuss about when docs or cops should be revived, cops or docs might give themselves away, as they'd probably have a different view on the subject, so I'd rather we not really discuss that unless we get a cop claim or a doc claim.

Of course, discussing when the roleblocker should be revived is a good idea, as he's already claimed.

[Yosarian2]

Then find reasons not to vote people and flip coins.

Thats one regret I have about not getting here earlier this game, otherwise I would have suggested we play it random, rolling dice which may have either,
A) Given us a good random base town, no chance of mafia planting
or
B) Flushed out impatient scum.

Although if we had done that, we wouldn't have gotten any kind of voting record. It might have lowered the chances of us losing on day 1, but we'd be in trouble after that, with much less to go on.

[Yosarian2]

Mayhem does have one valid point; in order to be sucessfull, scum have to try to be noticed in order to be revived, as opposed to a normal game where scum have to try to be not noticed in order to be not lynched, so scum might be more active then one would normally expect. However, the problem is that I would also expect the good guys to act the same way; to post a lot, to share thoughts, to discuss things, ect, because that's the only way they're going to find the scum, AND because they also want to be noticed in order to be revived just like the scum do.

[Yosarian2]

That is a good point by M4yhem, Yos, but as far as our lurkers go, I don't think that's any reason to confirm them, I admit I see even lurkers more active than normal as scum, but usually lurkers remain lurkers nonetheless. I don't know that I'd try to pull too much out of it.

Oh, I agree. Lurking might not be pro-scum in this game, but it's certanly not pro-town either.

Ceaser and the other lurkers; if you are pro-town and want to be revived, you have to convince us that you're pro-town and that if revived you're likely to make good decisions.

[Yosarian2]

This means activity in all its forms, major, minor and lack thereof is scummy. Because this weighs equally on everyone, because everyone fits in one of these categories we must use other qualities to judge scumminess.

One difference between the town and the scum, though, is that the scum already know who's town and who's not. I'm thinking that the scum, while trying to be active, probably aren't going to want to commit to an opinion on too many people; they don't want to annoy anyone because they need their votes, and they don't want to either say they trust their buddies or that they don't. That's also the place a lot of scum tells and hints about scum connections and such come from. So that's partly why I was suggesting that more people start voting and unvoting; we really need to start building a voting record.

For this reason that I would not expect a scum to expect the way you are acting. Of course, there's an element of WIFOM in it, but while activity in general is ambiguas at best, actually attacking and defending multiple people in a changing way as time goes on is still probably a pro-town activity, as it's somewhat dangerous for scum.

vote:Tamuz

. Again, not a strong vote, but I'd say that as of this moment your detailed and logical thoughts about everyone else, and your attacks on multiple people, are something I would expect scum to be less likely to do then town.

[Yosarian2]

vote Mr cesar

....back to voting for me....I HAVE to revive.

Well, unless you can post more then this, it's not going to happen.

Why did you vote themanhimself? What do you think about the revival of me we did on day 1? What do you think about any or all of the other people we've voted for? Does anyone seem scummy to you?

[Yosarian2]

Yos –I disagree. I think the scum have everything to gain from being supportive of their partners. They probably won’t be the first to vote for each other, but they will probably back up any townie who picks their buddy as a choice for revival. They will be saying things like: ”I agree with x and here’s a few more reasons my buddy is a good choice.”

Sure, a scum might try to get his partner revived, and would probably support a partner who was going to be revived. However, they would probably want to avoid publically and ovbeously tying themselves to their partners. A scum might support a good guy for revival if it looked like the good guy was going to probably be revived anyway in order to make friends/ make himself look better, or oppose a good guy in order to help his own odds. However, I would expect a scum to avoid supporting too many good guys (too many good guys get revived, the scum lose); to avoid making enemies with too many good guys, and to avoid tying himself to his scum buddies too openly and visably, especally early in the game. In other words, I wouldn't expect a scum to comment on more then one or two people at any given time, and I would expect most of those comments to be kind of subtle, or wishy washy, or vauge.

I realize this is all painfully WIFOMish, but it's basically all I have to go on. Also, me making this point is hopefully going to encourage more people to start making comments and observations about several other people and to start leaving a voting record and a record of who they don't trust, and that's the only way we're really going to figure out who's town and who is not. I do think actually commenting on other people is a slightly pro-town action; it's the only way we're ever going to get past the "I've got kind of a good feeling about person X" stage.

[Yosarian2]

Scum will do that, scum will do this. No no, your wrong, scum will do this and etc etc etc. Enough with it! The argument is ultimately going to loop onto each other and go back and forth. Yes, it's painfully WIFOMish.

It's not really a WIFOM issue to use your vote to reward those who you believe are acting in a pro-town way and to punish those who are not. That's not the only deciding factor in who a person should vote for, but it should be significant, because not only are pro-town people more likely to act in a pro-town way, but because it also forces everyone including the scum to act in a pro-town way which limits their options.

About Cesar, like I said earlier there are two factors in deciding who we should revive.

As to who should be revivied first, all I can say is that we want to revive people who we think are most likely to be pro-town based on their posts. After that, the next think I'm going to be considering is probably that we should try and pick people who seem most likely to make good decisions once they're alive; in the first day or two, their votes will be incredibly important to the town, as there will only be 3 or 4 people voting on those days, so we want to pick people who we think will make good decisions.

As of yet, he has not given me much reason to think he's pro-town. And even if he was pro-town, he's REALLY not given me any reason at all to think he'd make good decisions with his vote if we did revive him.

Based on his posts so far, I don't have any confidence in giving him 1/3 of the vote on day 1. I don't know what he would do with it, I don't know how he intends to figure out who's town and who's scum or if he intends on ever trying to figure that out for himself. Based on his posts so far, I see no reason to think that he's not even trying to figure out who's scum and who's not, which means that even if he's town I don't trust his judgement when it comes make that critical day 1 vote; and he's given me no real reason to think he's town either. If he wants to change my mind on that, he has to give me some sign he's thinking critically and trying to figure out who's scum, who's town, and who's a good revival choice.

[Yosarian2]

...was that directed at me? Becuase I never said that he was.

[Yosarian2]

I was just joking about reviving mr. cesar. Now that he is tied for lead it's getting ridiculous. Random voting is probably no longer safe. I have re-read the whole thread, and although he lurked a little in the beginning, he is now actively contibuting.

unvote
vote: tamuz

Seems fairly safe to me. ALthough I would like a role claim.

I don't want to revive someone who won't be of the biggest help to the town.

At this point, I think the key should be trying to revive people who seem to be pro-town, rather then people who might have power roles. If we can manage to get 3 pro-town people alive on day 1, we're in good shape no matter what their roles are. If we have 1 scum and 2 pro-town people with strong pro-town roles, we still could be in a lot of trouble. So I'm not really interested in role-claims at this point; I'd much rather revive someone I have a strong feeling is pro-town then someone who I'm not as sure of but claims a power role. So, role-claims shouldn't determine who we should revive at this point, especally as they can't be confirmed until after we've revived the person. Because of that, I think any roleclaims at this point would only help the scum, especally if it's someone we might revive in the near future.

[Yosarian2]

Oh, and related to my last post; at this point, even if Ceser out and out claimed a power role, I wouldn't vote for him unless he also started acting pro-town, so I don't really care about any hints he might be dropping.

[Yosarian2]

As for the roleclaiming thing, one pro part of it is if the cop and doc are revived, and the cop can target limbo players, then we are guaranteed at least 3 investigations (I think). N1 investigate, N1 no killing is allowed. N2 investigate and doc is killed. N3 investigate, cop might be killed. However since each scum is given a specific time when they can start killing, this is dependent on both scum being revived, and being able to kill early. Also, a scum kill that early when everybody except that one scum player is claimed would show us who one of the scum are, and if we get a vig revived, then he can remove the scum when he hits the doc.

Hmm... looking at it that way, it looks like a really easy to win, the cons I see are:
a.) what's the fun in that?
b.) possible fake claims and such.

Hmmm...interesting.

That might be a very good stratagy. Or the mod might have thought about that in designing the game, and intentionally designed the game so that that wouldn't work; for example, if the cop can't target people in limbo (the mod specifically said that he would not say if the cop could or not), or worse, the mod could have done something like put in an insane cop to prevent that game-breaking stratagy.

Nonetheless, it's something worth thinking about.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah...there are a few ways the mod could have designed the setup so that Al's plan would not work. Like I said, about the most evil think I could think of would be an insane cop; we might not know he was insane for days and days. I mean, how would we? He tells us person A is scum, and person B is town, so we revive person B. We wouldn't ever find out either of their alignment unless one of them dies or something, and they wouldn't; a person we thought was a cop-confirmed good guy certanly wouldn't get vigged, and a person we thought was a cop-confirmed scum wouldn't get revived, so we'd never find out either of their alignments. We could lose before we figure it out.

That being said, I now think Al is probably pro-town; the plan he suggested sounds like an honest attempt to make a game-breaking plan. Unless scum already somehow knew that that plan would fail (and I don't see how they would), I can't imagine a scum suggesting a plan like that. So now I'd be in favor of reviving either Al or Tamuz.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, I have trouble imagining how there could be a SK in this game. How could he win?

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, I have trouble imagining how there could be a SK in this game. How could he win?

Same as every other SK, when he/she is the only one alive. "Alive" being a term that is a bit different from the usual one.

Impossible. If all mafia members die, the town wins instantly. If half of the people left alive are mafia, the mafia wins instantly. So you could never get to a point where everyone but the SK is dead.

[Yosarian2]

Yosarian- First, it's not 'Al's plan'; I'm fairly certain that me and TheManHimself suggested claiming first. Al just put it in a way that made it agreeable to you.

No, not really. Your plan was for a mass-claim; theman's plan was for the person to claim before he got revived. Al's plan was more specific then either of those; he suggested that we have just the cop and the doc claim, revive the two of them, and then get three cop investigations from that (or two, as Thoth pointed out), hopefully give us two more good guys to revive, and then win the game. I'm not sure if Al's plan would work, but if it did, it would break the game for the town. That makes me think he's town, unless the scum have some information about the setup that tells them his plan can't work.

On the other hand, if we try that plan but end up reviving an insane cop, or a scum pretending to be a cop, or something really evil like an insane doc, we might be in really bad shape.

[Yosarian2]

I doubt some bastard things like that in a game like this, especially an insane cop, unless if we also have a sane one. But this would be why we would have to hear from everybody after a claim to see if there is a counterclaim, which would cause problems.

(shrug) I would tend to think that the mod would have thought about that kind of stratagy when designing the game, and intentionally designed it so that "cop and doc claim" is not the simple breaking stratagy it appears to be. Perhaps I'm just being paranoid, but it seems like it's a little bit too obveous a way for the town to win easily and safely.

The mod might not have put in a doc, or there might be a scum godfather who looks innocent to cops, or there might not be a cop at all (which could be especally bad, as it would let a scum fake being the cop and let him lead the town to it's doom), or any number of other things.

[Yosarian2]

Bah humbug. It seems pretty clear that the things that Al_kohaulec said folow on from what a lot of people said, mostly notably me.

I find it both irritating and highly suspect that Al_Kohaulec is being given credit for it and I am not.

Again, he set out a detailed plan that would involve two people claiming, and discribed exactally what would happen and how it would help the town. You wanted everyone to claim, and the reasons for why were more vauge. Big difference.

I also find Yos and Al’s turnaround on claiming quite scary. What, d’you have enough information now that you think you can get away with fake claiming?

If you've been reading my posts, I still don't know if I agree with the plan, too many thing could go wrong.

And isn’t trying to direct the cop and the doc a giant, flashing neon scumtell?

No one's trying to "direct" anyone here; "trying to direct the cop/doc" generally means telling them what to do at night.

[Yosarian2]

I would consider reviving Mr.Cesar, but not today or tomorrow.

You guys are all sissys. Let's bandwagon chaotic_diablo and Mr. C and get this day over with.

Aye aye, Mr.Dummie, Sir!

Unvote, Vote:Mr.Cesar

[Yosarian2]

I was wondering when, and why, you had changed your mind that Ceaser shouldn't be revived "today or tommorow".

[Yosarian2]

Sure...

Would revive:
Alko. I really think it's likely he's town at this point.

Might want to revive eventually (slight pro-town feeling):

TheManHimself: Again, don't necessarally want to revive him right away becuase he's claimed roleblocker, but my gut's telling me he's probably pro-town. Don't really want to revive him before day 1, but probably will at some point later.

Chaotic Diablo: Not as sure as I was about him earlier, but he still looks slightly more pro-town then not, dispite that one point of contention we had early in day .5

Thoth: He almost falls into the lurker catagory below, but while he hasn't posted that much, I get a somewhat good feeling from his posts.

Need to hear more from/lurkers:
Lordy
Yellowbounder
Twito

And I see no reason to revive a lurker at this point.


Probably won't revive:

CrashTextDummies: Some lurking, and I don't like the way he was pushing for Mr. Ceaser yesterday, with helpful comments like "you guys are all sissies." If Ceaser does turn out to be a good guy, I might change my mind on Crash, but if Ceaser is scum then Crash needs to stay in limbo.

M4yhem: He could change my mind; he's been acting a bit more pro-town lately, but I'm still remembering some scummy behavior from him early on.
Also note that he also had a somewhat odd looking vote for Mr. Ceasar.

Won't revive (unless something changes):

Mr. Cesar. I don't like how he's contribued nothing and yet people have been voting for him. Several people have voted for him for very weak reasons, which makes me wonder if scum are trying to find an excuse to get one of their own in.

[Yosarian2]

1. Until Mr.Cesar is dead and scum, you have no reason to assume that voting for him is scummy.

No, we don't have enough information to really "assume" anything. But like I said, it seems wierd to me that a few people voted for him for such weak reasons. Because of the nature of the game, that naturally makes me suspicious of him and, to a lesser extent, some of the people voting for him.

How much more protown do I have to be before you revive me, Yos? What do I have to do, explain or answer to get you to change your mind?

It's hard to say, really. I'm mostly going on gut feelings here. Early in the game, I was suspicious of you, and I've learned not to avoid early day 1 gut feelings in mafia games. That being said, I am always willing to be convinced, and like I said your later behavior does look more pro-town , but I'm not sure what offhand you could do to convince me at this moment. Sorry.

Can you not see that the fact that Al_Kohaulec has been agreeing with popular opinion

all the time

is a bad sign? Or are you in cahoots?

Heh. Well, I kind of see what you mean, but it's worth mentioning that he was just accused of the exact same thing in another game I'm playing with him. Of course, he might be scum there for all I know, and I'm not going to discuss ongoing games in any detail, but at the moment I'm thinking that he might just have a "consider all points of view" kind of playstyle.

[Yosarian2]

I’m pretty sure voting for Mr.Cesar was a joke/reaction getter on my part. I don’t consider that weird at all. But I think I’m less serious about my votes than other people. Similaraly, themanhimself voted for Mr.Cesar. That seems to have been just for fun. This is a game after all, and so I expect a certain amount of clowning around, espicially in the early stages or at point when disscussion slow down. The only Mr.Cesar voter who

I

fing suspicious is Crash, because he seems serious about the whole thing. But if he was scum with Mr.Cesar, I’d be dissapointed. Pretty sure Crash is a better player than that.

I don't like the "pretty sure crash is a better player then that" argument. Scum really need to get at least one of their own revived soon if they're going to have a chance. So I wouldn't be suprised if scum give each other more direct support then you'd see in a normal game; sure, it's a risk, but they might think it's one they have to take.

As for your vote, yeah, I didn't find your Cesar vote quite as scummy as Crash's, which is why I didn't make as big a deal about it.

Now, if you find the Mr.Cesar voting suspicious, imagine how your interaction with Al_Kohaulec looks from my end. He’s one of the first to vote for you and since then you and him have been saying nothing but nice things about each other. You agree with the claiming thing when it comes from him, but not when it comes from anyone else. You’ve got a cute little mutual support club going.

Again, your mass claiming plan and his plan looked very different.

Look at it from my point of view, ok? At the point when he proposed it, I knew that the town had revived a good guy, me. If we had then went on to revive a cop and a doc, I knew we would be in amazingly good shape. Can you see how tempting that plan looked from my point of view?

In fact, I eventually came to the conclusion that any game-breaking plan as seemingly obveous as "cop and doc claim, town wins" would probably have been prevented by the mod in the game design; perhaps by not having a doc, or by having an insane cop, or by some other method. Still, unless the scum have some way of knowing that for sure beforehand, I wouldn't think it likely that a scum would suggest a plan like that.

There are other people who fit this pattern as well though. Take Chaotic and Thoth. Thoth turned on me once I got in a fight with Chaotic, and said that he’d agreed with

everything

Chaotic said. C_D tried to revive Thoth for much of yesterday, and Thoth is now trying to revive C_D. I find that amusing. And sinister...

That is true. It is a fact that you're inherenlty more likely to trust someone who seems to trust you, which is why many scum stratagies to "win someone over to your side" can work. However, let me go back and take another look at them.

Early in the game, I was suspicious of you, and I've learned not to avoid early day 1 gut feelings in mafia games.

Ah, the good ole ‘gut feeling’ arguement. There’s nothing I can say to disprove that, as you well know. All I can suggest is maybe you had too much cheese for lunch? Or perhaps you need more fiber in your diet?

As for my gut, I try to ignore it, cause it’s wrong as often as it’s right. Having said that, in the newbie game I was in I had these strong feelings that Crash was scum, but I left him alone because there was no evidence against him. It’s a similar thing now with Al_Ko; he’s done nothing that I can point to as scummy, but I feel like there’s something wrong.

(shrug) My guts' not always right, but I've found that it's right more often then i would expect, and I've very often regretted not trusting my feeling about someone more.

Having said that, you have been looking more pro-town lately then you were at the start of the game, which is why you moved up from my "Will never revive" list, where you were on day .25, to my"probably won't revive" list.

The problem is that this is exactly the arguement you

would

make if you were scum with him.

(shrug) You asked a question about what I thought about his general playstyle and behavior so far this game, and I'm giving you my best interpretation based on what I've seen. Interpret that any way you like.

[Yosarian2]

As of now, no one is a good candidate.

I understand the sentiment, but we are going to have to revive someone today. If you had to pick someone, who would it be? Which person do you distrust the least at this moment in time?

[Yosarian2]

As for the Mr.Cesar thing, I can’t believe you really think it wasn’t a joke on my part. In the actual post where I vote Mr.Cesar, the only reason I give for the vote is ‘aye aye captain Crash’ or some other such nonsense. Then I spend the rest of the post attacking Crashie’s case for reviving Mr.Cesar.

Yeah, I'm not really sure what to think of your cesar vote at this time. If we ever do find out what Ceaser/ Zindaras's alignment is, I'll take another look at it then.

I know the plans look different on the page, but I had actually thought of Al’s plan in my head, which is why I overreacted to you praising him for it. Of course you’re unlikly to believe me but I thought I’d tell you anyway.

(shrug) Well, I don't disbelieve you, but the way you had proposed the plan on day 1, you had suggested a mass claim, which has several negitive features tat would have hurt the town that Al's plan didn't have. For example, in Al's plan, people like vigs don't claim; we really might need a vig later in the game, it's a quite important townie power role in this setup, but I think having a vig claim now would hurt the town a good deal.

I agree it’s a good plan, but it’s really up to the cop & doc to decide, isn’t it. I imagine that our marvellous mod will have thought of something to counter it, like the cop can only investigate living people, so that we’re still in the dark when reviving people.

Yeah, agreed.

Note that we could actually still put the plan into effect if we wanted to; we could revive the cop today, then revive the doc day 2; it'd come out to the same thing doing it on day .5 and .75 because scum can't kill night one. At this point, though, I'm not sure it's a good idea, for the reasons you and I have mentioned..

However, the thing I was pointing out was that most of the possible problems I could see with the plan, like a cop with sanity problems, or a cop who can't investigate people in limbo, or not having a doctor, ect, are all things that the scum most likely wouldn't know. So, if scum have no way of knowing what could go wrong with the plan, why would a scum suggest it? (shrug) Again, this is just based on the way I think, but I know that when I'm scum the one of the last things I would want to do would be to actually propose a plan that could win the game for the town unless the mod had carefully planned for it in advance.

Doesn’t it bother you at all when I accuse you of being scum with somebody? I would be up in arms if you falsely accused me.

Eh; you've been accusing me of being scum for most of the game (although you did suddenly turn around and revive me at the end of day .25, which still confuses me). Why would I get all upset about it now?

And oh wow, I’m all the way to ‘probably won’t revive’ already? Let’s start dancing!

Alky, Yos- You both said you'd look at the C_D/ Thoth thing. What did you find?

Hmm. Thoth seemed to be supporting CD, using much the same words he was using to support me on day 1.

The one thing I do find odd on the subject is this one post of Chaotic Diablo.

m4yhem, WIFOM already covered by al_ko, I won't go over it again.

No backpeddling, because I disagree that good scum wouldn’t be predictable. They will use the behaviour that helps them win, even if I say in thread that that is what they’re doing.
4. The problem with this argument is that I didn’t suggest a plan at all. I explained how I thought scum might act and you freaked out for some reason.
5. I’m not sure you’re reading what I write. I would notice them, because by being overaggressive they draw attention to themselves, including my attention..
6.This point is basically useless flamebait, isn’t it?

4. You accused me of not having a plan. Here are you exact words:

And what’s your alternative plan? Oh, I’m sorry, you didn’t make one, did you? NOT HELPFUL.

Your definitely backpeddling.
5. I'm reading, but your straying off your main point.
6. Yes, it is a flame. However, I'm not the only one who can be accused of it. If you want, I can pick out several examples.

Thoth, you took out 9 people on your list. The only ones left are al_ko and I. Is there a chance that you might reconsider adding more onto that list in the near future?

I don't quite agree with the random thing for reasons already explained by others.

At the moment, Thoth is on top with Tamuz second. No one else is on the list yet, but I'll add more.

vote Thoth

CD, was there any spcific reason for your Thoth vote at this point? You never really laid it out.

[Yosarian2]

1) I'm fairly convinced one of our revivals is scum.

And what are you basing this conviction on?

[Yosarian2]

1) I'm fairly convinced one of our revivals is scum.

And what are you basing this conviction on?

The fact that people seemed a tiny bit too eager to revive you. Tamuz hardly posted the first few pages.

Yeah; once it looked like I was going to be revived, several people quickly jumped on my bandwagon. Like I said early in the game, if it looks like a good guy is going to be revived, I wouldn't be surprised to see scum quickly jump on the wagon, both in order to look more pro-town and to buddy up with someone who's going to have one of three votes on day 1.

That's why there are some people on my suspicious list even though they voted for me day 1, like Crash.

[Yosarian2]

I've seen the questions and will respond when I find time to do a full re-read.

Clarification:

No Revive is not a valid vote.

Okay.

This is quite irrelevant though. Limbo-cop only has to investigate an innocent guy during two nights to win.

If there is one.

Would like to hear opinions on that particular plan, for which we must assume we've revived two townies.

It's basically the same plan as Al's from yesterday; we revive a limbo-cop and then revive a doc to keep the limbo cop safe, while the cop investigates. That way even if there is a scum alive, the cop gets at least two investigations, and if there's not we almost certanly win.

And it has the same problems; it only works if there is a limbo cop and only one limbo cop, and if he has no sanity problems, and also could be disrupted by a godfather-ish role or something like that. Nonetheless, it could be worth trying, and if there is a limbo cop, I wouldn't be opposed to him claiming and us reviving him today. It's up to him, though.

[Yosarian2]

Heh...it's not really "my" plan, guys; it's Al's plan. But yeah; it's starting to look like the cop probably isn't going to claim, as we've been talking about this plan for 2 days now, so perhaps there isn't a cop, or perhaps he knows something we don't.

I guess I may as well go with my #1 choice at the moment, and

vote:al_kohaulec

[Yosarian2]

Random might be good coz there are more town than scum..

Not really.

Sure, the odds are probably good we'd get town today, but we can't win until we revive at least 3 more people. If we just revive randomally, odds are 1 of them will be scum, and we won't have any kind of voting record or anything to figure out who.

[Yosarian2]

Self voting early to try to start a bandwagon on yourself is bad. When you have reasons, I'm okay with it.

Eh? Everyone in the game as a reason to vote for themsleves. Just like everyone in a normal game has a reason to not get lynched. Why is it "bad"?

[Yosarian2]

A self-vote without reasoning is scummy because there's no reason behind it. It's simply an attempt to start a bandwagon on yourself.

There is noting scummy with attempting to start a bandwagon on yourself, or with voting for yourself. Every person in the game should want to be revived. If you're pro-town, the reason you want to be revived is because you know you're pro town. That goes without saying, and knowing someone is pro-town is also the best possible reason to vote them.

Anyway,

vote:Zindaras

. Let's not revive him until we're sure there's no counter claim, ok?

I would suggest that you investigate me tonight, but it's actually a better idea to check out one of the living players. I'm sure you know which one I mean. Although obviously it's up to you.

Terrible, anti-town advice there. What we'll need is to find an innocent to revive on day 2, and another innocent to revive on day 3. If we do that, we win, unless one of the living players is scum. Reviving is the key decision we have to make every day, and we need the cop to give us information on who to revive and who not to. Personally, if I were the cop, I'd actually be looking to investigate people I thought were probably good guys in limbo.

One idea might be to investigate themanhimself, to confirm his innocence, and then if he is innocent we revive him tommorow and let him start roleblocking living people (who aren't the cop, obveously). If we don't have a doc, a roleblocker is the next best thing; he might be able to keep the cop alive, and if a scum does get revived a roleblocker should be able help figure out who he is without us having to waste cop investigations on the living.

By the way, if we do have a doc, it might be a good idea to claim now, then the cop can check you out and we can revive you on day 2, to make sure the cop stays alive.

[Yosarian2]

Yos- It's not anti-town advice, it's anti-you advice, as I'm sure you guessed. I think making sure the people already revived are not scum is quite important, since they are the ones which will be doing the killing.

Yes, it will be good to know the alignment of the people already revived. But the plan was to use a limbo cop in order to find people we have to revive.

If the cop finds a scum in limbo, then we can simply never revive that person, which is almost as good as a dead scum. If a cop finds a good guy in limbo, then we revive them. Both are quite useful results for the town.

If a cop finds a confirmed innocent that's alive, however, it dosn't help the town very much, other then giving us something to look at with voting records and such. It would basically be a waste of an investigation.

It would be useful to find a scum that was alive, of course, but at this point there's no reason to think there is one, and we can also use the roleblocker as a quasi-investigator of the alive without having to waste a cop investigation.

At this point, I've got a good feeling about Tomez, so my guess would be that we're going to have 3 good guys alive on day 1, in which case we just have to find 2 more good guys and revive them and we win; so long as we can avoid godfathers and have no sanity problems, we should have this one in the bag. And if by some chance Zindaras is insane, I think we'll figure that out pretty quick, as I can't picture Twito claiming at the point when he did unless he expected the cop investigation to come up on him as innocent. (IE: my guess is Twito is probably telling the truth, could theoretically be a godfather, but is probably not "vanillia" scum).

I could be wrong about Tomez being good, of course, but if I am we'll probably figure it out soon enough, and if the doc and the roleblocker are telling the truth, we should be able to deal with it without losing our cop.

[Yosarian2]

Al- So now you want to be safe, but you didn't mind rushing to revive Yos, even though I urged caution?

Ummm...but you cast the last vote to revive me.

I don’t get it. Why not just investigate Twito, if we plan to revive him first? I’d rather lose the doc early than the cop. And you forget that the scum get enabled to kill at different times, so being blocked once doesn’t tell us much, even if there is no kill.

Agreed. The goal should be to only revive people we've investigated from now on.

Since everybody is suggesting plans, I’d like to suggest TheManHimself is investigated tonight, and that he then blocks Yosarian for all eternity.

(shrug) Well, it's be better to revive the doc first, because that should ensure the cop stays alive for a while at least, while a roleblocker would only have a chance at stopping any kill. But once the roleblocker is revived, sure, I'd expect him to block either me or Tamuz.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, like I mentioned yesterday, it is possible twito is a godfather. The fact that he claimed so quick and wasn't couterclaimed is a point in his favor, but as you say the scum could have gotten doc as a safe claim.

I'd be willing to support reviving the man himself/shamrock.

[Yosarian2]

Ah, you want me to answer the same question, m4hem? Didn't see that.

Well, of course I know I'm town and I'm not sure about Tamuz, so I'd rather see him blocked then me, just in case he is scum. It's up to the roleblocker, though, and of course he dosn't know my alignment. (shrug) Worst case scenerio, say the roleblocker blocks me and then someone dies, at least that'll confirm my alignment.

As for your arguments, they're pretty weak. It's hardly a scum tell to not want claims that could hurt the town. Once someone came up with a plan for specific claims in such a way that it would help the town, I was in favor of it.

And I certanly don't have any "fear" of investigation. I just know that wasting a cop investigation to confirm a person already alive as a good guy would be quite bad for the town at this point, I would much rather the cop investiatge people in limbo. In fact, your pushing of that anti-town idea is just making me more suspicious of you.

If we can revive a good guy today and tommorow, and then have 5 good guys alive, then we win. If we revive someone tommorow and the game dosn't end, then we'll know to start looking at the living, because one of them would have to be scum. Until we have some reason to think we have a scum alive, though, I'm not going to assume it at this point.

[Yosarian2]

I can see how people can see sherlock as innocent, but not how people are convinced of his innocence. We haven't heard from sherlock yet.

Basically, when themanhimself first claimed, I considered the possibility he might be a scum roleblocker, or that he might be a lying vanillia scum willing to take a large risk in order to try and get revived on day 1. A large risk, because if lying he might have been counterclaimed by a pro-town roleblocker, or if we did revive him there's the risk of us testing him and figuring out he's lying, but it might be a risk worth taking.

However, if the scum were going to have one of their memebers take that kind of risk, my guess is it probably wouldn't be the godfather. Being godfather wouldn't help at all if you get counterclaimed or if you are forced to demonstrate your ability later and are found to be lying. So my thoughts were the themanhimself might have been a scum roleblocker, or a vanillia scum, but that it was unlikely he was the scum godfather.

But he was found innocent. Like I said, I don't think he's a godfather, so I'm thinking that either he's a good guy, or Zindaras has sanity problems, or Zindaras is lying. I already had a good feeling about themanhimself, and this point I'm thinking that he's very probably a good guy.

Even so, I would agree that I'd like to hear from him today before we revive him.

[Yosarian2]

I'm not gonna coincider the change of Zindaras lying coz then we are fucked.

Not really good logic here; if Zindaras is lying, we're only fucked if we don't consider the possibility of him lying.

I don't really think he is, but I just wanted to point out that that's a really bad reason to not even consider it at this point. Do you think he could be lying?

[Yosarian2]

But I believe scenario one to be the case, because a sane cop would balance the fact that the town’s normal source of concrete information is cut off. By this time in a normal game, we would know the alignments of four to six people, based on lynches and nightkills. Not knowing which bandwagons are good or bad is a fairly significant handicap for the town. There may not even be a godfather.

That's a good point. Usually there is an information role included in every game, so it would be most likely Zindaras is cop. However, his saneness isn't proved by this.
If we had more than one cop, then obviously there will be many different sanities. This causes counterclaiming to be worthless. In a view, a smart cop would realize this. In a normal game, a cop would investigate the claimed cop and see if there are any problems with it. As you can see, it actually brings more information for us. I'm not quite sure how it will work out in this game, but we still haven't accounted for Zindara's brokeness, something Zindaras himself stated.
Because of this scenario, it makes your suggested scenario two and three more likely. Scenario one is most probable, but I still think we should keep an eye out for the other two.

Yos, what if inhim was scum, but acted by his own accord? I just don't get the sense that scum would try a risky maneuver like this unless they were super coordinated. I've seen STD try a stunt and his scum members had no idea what he was pulling. He failed and got lynched.

Assuming you mean "theman" instead of "inhim" here, right?

Well, my general feeling would be that a scum godfather would be less likely to risk himself with that kind of risky scheme then a vanillia scum. Investigative immunity is always quite a powerful passive ability for scum, and even more so then usual in this game, so my thinking would be that a godfather would be less likely to take that kind of risk in that kind of situation. A vanillia scum might take a very big risk to try and get revived very early, but I don't think that would be a good stratagy for a godfather that early on day 1.

Not that it's impossible, but it just dosn't strike me as likely. Also, like I mentioned earlier, I am basing this partly on his behavior as well; even before the cop investigation, I said:

TheManHimself: Again, don't necessarally want to revive him right away becuase he's claimed roleblocker, but my gut's telling me he's probably pro-town. Don't really want to revive him before day 1, but probably will at some point later.

That dosn't mean I want to revive him before he posts today. If nothing else, an inactive roleblocker wouldn't help us tonight, so we've got to get him back in to the game or get him replaced if he's not going to play.

[Yosarian2]

If the RB roleblocks the wrong one, we know who scum is, which is a pretty large advantage. Yes, we lose the Cop, but we also learn the Cop's sanity and thus know to what extent we can trust his results.

Reviving the RB is a win/win more situation. If he picks the wrong guy, we know who scum is and can RB him, finding more townies on the back of normal play. If he picks the right guy, we still have the Cop running around.

All else being equal, I think a doc would actually be slightly stronger at the moment. Then, worst case scenerio, if there is a scum alive, we'd lose the doc in exchange for another cop investigation and the knowledge that there was a scum alive; whereas with a roleblocker either nothing would happen, and we wouldn't know if that meant anything or not, or the cop would die and we would clear one living person in exchange for that.

That being said, we have more reason to trust themanhimself/shamrock at the moment then twito.

[Yosarian2]

mod:could you prod sherlock/themanhimself, please?

We're basically just waiting for him to post now, I think. If he's not going to post, then we need to replace him before we go to night; it would stink to revive a roleblocker and then have him forget to send in a night choice.

[Yosarian2]

Hmmm...ok. Well, if he dosn't post in a few days, we're probably going to need to have him replaced.