Mini 370: Reverse Mafia - Game Over!

[Yosarian2]

Yeah...there are a few ways the mod could have designed the setup so that Al's plan would not work. Like I said, about the most evil think I could think of would be an insane cop; we might not know he was insane for days and days. I mean, how would we? He tells us person A is scum, and person B is town, so we revive person B. We wouldn't ever find out either of their alignment unless one of them dies or something, and they wouldn't; a person we thought was a cop-confirmed good guy certanly wouldn't get vigged, and a person we thought was a cop-confirmed scum wouldn't get revived, so we'd never find out either of their alignments. We could lose before we figure it out.

That being said, I now think Al is probably pro-town; the plan he suggested sounds like an honest attempt to make a game-breaking plan. Unless scum already somehow knew that that plan would fail (and I don't see how they would), I can't imagine a scum suggesting a plan like that. So now I'd be in favor of reviving either Al or Tamuz.

[chaotic_diablo]

I'm in favor of the SK able to kill in limbo to counter the mass claiming. It seems that scum can't kill us whenever they want, so perhaps a

limited

SK? Though only live players can send in a choice, the mod's word is absolute, so it could happen. Another counter would be that a cop would also have a randomly generated number and can't investigate immediately. Same goes for the doc and any other role.

There are too many unknown factors. Usually we wouldn't even consider a mass claim on day one. Is it really going to help us that much?

m4yhem, I'm not sure if you read my sentence correctly, but there's "don't" between the "I" and "really."

[Tamuz]

Out of curiosity, how do you make invisible text?

:redflag:

c_d, how did you pick up the impression that we have a SK in this game. I got the strong impression from the discussion prior to this game, and the win conditions posted there that a SK would not exist, especially because that would mess up the balances like the 2 mafia out loss.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, I have trouble imagining how there could be a SK in this game. How could he win?

[chaotic_diablo]

It isn't that I got the impression, but I always expect more than one killing group. It's no different from having a vig. I'm pretty sure that the mod will find ways to fit certain roles in.

[chaotic_diablo]

Yeah, I have trouble imagining how there could be a SK in this game. How could he win?

Same as every other SK, when he/she is the only one alive. "Alive" being a term that is a bit different from the usual one.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, I have trouble imagining how there could be a SK in this game. How could he win?

Same as every other SK, when he/she is the only one alive. "Alive" being a term that is a bit different from the usual one.

Impossible. If all mafia members die, the town wins instantly. If half of the people left alive are mafia, the mafia wins instantly. So you could never get to a point where everyone but the SK is dead.

[chaotic_diablo]

Let's say that everyone is in limbo except for the SK, then the SK wins?

[al_kohaulec]

I don't think we'd ever get into one of those scenarios either.


Basically, for the SK to win, he would need at least one townie and one mafiate in limbo throughout the entire game. Cause otherwise it could easily result in game over, town or mafia win. If he was the only one killing, then the number of bodies he's killing off would match the number of bodies we're reviving, so he'd never make enough progress to reach the point where he was a lone survivor.

He wouldn't be able to kill until we had

at least

4 players alive, so to even get down to two alive, he'd have to kill off a player, probably the mafiate or vig (whoever's alive) and either a mafia or vig would have to kill off somebody other than the SK.


It seems near impossible for an SK to win at this game, and I really can't see one in this game. The rules in the beginning, mostly regarding win conditions, points at there being no SK.

[chaotic_diablo]

I've been thinking about that, and the only explanation I can provide is that there are some roles that are not run-off-the-mill. This is a theme game, so there might be a way for the SK to win. It's not like we can anticipate every single factor. This game is really about how

we

can get to the goal, not how

they

can get to the goal. We just have to keep an open-mind and expect what might happen.

IMO, there might be roles that revolve around the 'revival' portion of this game. For instance, a role that can send someone back into limbo and a role that can revive. Or a role that can switch players in limbo and living. Perhaps we can even have a role that prevents a revival for a day.

[al_kohaulec]

I've thought about some of those too, but it simply doesn't help us to speculate that much because at that point it gets to where just about anything could happen and it really won't end up helping us.

For example, in day one of the last game I was in, one player claimed "I require two votes more than the majority to be lynched, and when I reach the normal majority to be lynched, I gain some ability, I don't know what it is though." Everybody speculated on so many different possibilities, including "He's going to be lynched and revived later in the game with a uber ability that will PWN US ALL!" This really got us nowhere, it turns out he was simply a jester. It's just an example of how when nearly anything is possible, looking at everything that's possible doesn't get us any further, and acting upon very unlikely possibilities is worse. Some people wanted to lynch him because he was scum, others to give his ability, and some were afraid to vote him at all for reasons that he could be scum who'd come back to life with insane abilities. The latter is horrible logic because if he's scum, he needs to die nonetheless, and a future revival with insane powers is unlikely, and you can't just let people live based on such unlikely events.

(Now I"m rambling, so I'll stop. That same game ended up having no mafia, 2 cults (one leader didn't know he was recruiting), 2 SKs, 1 backup SK, 1 triggered SK, 2 self-aligned players, a town aligned who lost if he died, over half a dozen useless docs and other useless roles, and a townie who had a trigger that changed what a player's alignment would show up as on death. Ya, it was a fun game.)

[themanhimself]

SK is a stupid idea, but there's no need to go guantanamo on him. We couldn't lynch him if we wanted to.

[chaotic_diablo]

I'm fine that we can assume that a SK isn't in this game. However, we should keep in mind that it still might be possible. We are not really in the sort of situation to the point that every possilbity could also be a liability.

I'd like a vote count.

[CrashTextDummie]

I'm getting a sudden urge to revive chaotic_diablo.

Unvote, Vote: chaotic_diablo

[al_kohaulec]

Why? Recently he just speculated about a possible SK being out there? I don't think that's a good reason, and if it's stuff that he's done a long time ago, then why are you just now getting the urge?

Please explain yourself CTD.

[Tamuz]

I follow you CTD, but it may just be a red herring, much like the "I MUST be revived by Cesar.

[Thoth]

As for the roleclaiming thing, one pro part of it is if the cop and doc are revived, and the cop can target limbo players, then we are guaranteed at least 3 investigations (I think). N1 investigate, N1 no killing is allowed. N2 investigate and doc is killed. N3 investigate, cop might be killed. However since each scum is given a specific time when they can start killing, this is dependent on both scum being revived, and being able to kill early. Also, a scum kill that early when everybody except that one scum player is claimed would show us who one of the scum are, and if we get a vig revived, then he can remove the scum when he hits the doc.

Hmm... looking at it that way, it looks like a really easy to win, the cons I see are:
a.) what's the fun in that?
b.) possible fake claims and such.

This only gives 2 certain investigations. The N3 result we will never know when the cop dies. Preventing this by having a living vig that kills the guy that kills the doctor would work, but requires us to revive rather well as with 4 revives on day 2 this requires vig, doc, cop and scum.

Still I think it is a pretty good idea. After all there is a chance we don't revive scum during the pregame. In that case when we have a living sane cop the game is virtually over. Of course we're in great shape anyhow then even if we don't have a living cop.

I don't think there is a SK. If there was the post with game mechanics from the mod would not be written like it is.

[M4yhem]

Yosarian- First, it's not 'Al's plan'; I'm fairly certain that me and TheManHimself suggested claiming first. Al just put it in a way that made it agreeable to you.

Second- I'm also fairly certain that you suspected both me and TheMan because we were in favor of claiming; yet now you claim Al is

less

suspicious because he 'suggested' it. That kind of favoritism and hypocrisy does not sit well with me.

Thirdly- The idea that scum don’t suggest pro-town plans is nonsense. Al-scum would be able to see that we are very unlikely to follow that plan; claiming has been suggested and rejected once already. He therefore takes the opportunity to look protown and gain a few points. What he’s actually doing is more of that echoing and agreeing with everybody which has made him suspicious to me in the past.

Diablo- I saw the don’t the first time. I was *gasp*

agreeing

with you.

Tamuz- redflag? What, you think I’m so dumb as scum that I would ask out loud how to do something sneaky? I just want to know for, er…later. Yeah…later.

I don’t believe in the Sk.

*Smacks Crash hard upside the head* No, you

fool

! Chaotic is currently the frontrunner is the I-think-these-people-are-scum steeplechase (sponsored by M4yhem!)
hence, we don’t revive him. Will you stop looking for hints or whatever it is you’re doing and join the conversation please?

[Yosarian2]

Yosarian- First, it's not 'Al's plan'; I'm fairly certain that me and TheManHimself suggested claiming first. Al just put it in a way that made it agreeable to you.

No, not really. Your plan was for a mass-claim; theman's plan was for the person to claim before he got revived. Al's plan was more specific then either of those; he suggested that we have just the cop and the doc claim, revive the two of them, and then get three cop investigations from that (or two, as Thoth pointed out), hopefully give us two more good guys to revive, and then win the game. I'm not sure if Al's plan would work, but if it did, it would break the game for the town. That makes me think he's town, unless the scum have some information about the setup that tells them his plan can't work.

On the other hand, if we try that plan but end up reviving an insane cop, or a scum pretending to be a cop, or something really evil like an insane doc, we might be in really bad shape.

[al_kohaulec]

First of all, the plan mostly works if the cop

can

target limbo players. This we don't know yet for sure.

Yosarian- First, it's not 'Al's plan'; I'm fairly certain that me and TheManHimself suggested claiming first. Al just put it in a way that made it agreeable to you.

Now there's a difference in what both of us proposed. And honestly, I don't think I proposed it as much as providing an argument as to why claiming could be good.

What you two suggested is that we mass claim, and revive our power roles. Here a power role could be anything, and scum could easily fake a claim. There is no failsafe if one or more scum are revived, and you provided no viable reasoning for proposing a massclaim.

What I mentioned involves an actual plan of specific players who, if claimed, could be revived to essentially clear everybody slowly, until we win.

Second- I'm also fairly certain that you suspected both me and TheMan because we were in favor of claiming; yet now you claim Al is

less

suspicious because he 'suggested' it. That kind of favoritism and hypocrisy does not sit well with me.

See above.

Thirdly- The idea that scum don’t suggest pro-town plans is nonsense. Al-scum would be able to see that we are very unlikely to follow that plan; claiming has been suggested and rejected once already. He therefore takes the opportunity to look protown and gain a few points. What he’s actually doing is more of that echoing and agreeing with everybody which has made him suspicious to me in the past.

Like I mentioned above, there are major differences in what you two proposed, and what I mentioned. Basically it's a more elaborate and thought out method making such a plan work. Some players see it as protown because it has the potential to be a foolproof plan to ensure essentially a flawless victory against the scum. Keep in mind we don't know that it is truly foolproof, but from what we know so far, it possibly could be. You might consider it WIFOM, but scum should and would never be stupid enough to guarantee a town's success like that.

And like I said, since both plans are so fundamentally different, there's really no reason to 'not follow it' just because a similar one was rejected.


-------------------------


And anyways, there are ways to improve that plan I mentioned. I'll explain it if you guys want to hear, but as Yos points out, there are so many flaws that could occur causing it to go wrong.


I doubt some bastard things like that in a game like this, especially an insane cop, unless if we also have a sane one. But this would be why we would have to hear from everybody after a claim to see if there is a counterclaim, which would cause problems.

[Yosarian2]

I doubt some bastard things like that in a game like this, especially an insane cop, unless if we also have a sane one. But this would be why we would have to hear from everybody after a claim to see if there is a counterclaim, which would cause problems.

(shrug) I would tend to think that the mod would have thought about that kind of stratagy when designing the game, and intentionally designed it so that "cop and doc claim" is not the simple breaking stratagy it appears to be. Perhaps I'm just being paranoid, but it seems like it's a little bit too obveous a way for the town to win easily and safely.

The mod might not have put in a doc, or there might be a scum godfather who looks innocent to cops, or there might not be a cop at all (which could be especally bad, as it would let a scum fake being the cop and let him lead the town to it's doom), or any number of other things.

[M4yhem]

Bah humbug. It seems pretty clear that the things that Al_kohaulec said follow on from what a lot of people said, mostly notably me.

It allows us to maximize the amount of investigations we get (assuming there is a cop.)

As for the roleclaiming thing, one pro part of it is if the cop and doc are revived, and the cop can target limbo players, then we are guaranteed at least 3 investigations (I think). N1 investigate, N1 no killing is allowed. N2 investigate and doc is killed. N3 investigate, cop might be killed. However since each scum is given a specific time when they can start killing, this is dependent on both scum being revived, and being able to kill early. Also, a scum kill that early when everybody except that one scum player is claimed would show us who one of the scum are, and if we get a vig revived, then he can remove the scum when he hits the doc.

I find it both irritating and highly suspect that Al_Kohaulec is being given credit for it and I am not.

I also find Yos and Al’s turnaround on claiming quite scary. What, d’you have enough information now that you think you can get away with fake claiming?

And isn’t trying to direct the cop and the doc a giant, flashing neon scumtell?

Al- Yes, you’re right. That is WIFOM. Well spotted. I know that I, as scum, would certainly propose a plan like that, if I was myself planning to claim cop. Especially if my partner had earlier brought up the possibility of there being an insane cop. So yeah, it’s meaningless.

I think we can probably use our common sense to guess the roles. For instance, I’m pretty sure there’s at least one cop, because our usual sources of information (lynchs and nightkills) are reduced. On the other hand, I could believe that there’s no doc, because the setup itself protects the townies. And Yos has a point about the vig-as-lynch, although it pains me to agree with him.

Yes, yes, I know. Don’t outguess the mod. But I think we can make a few assumptions in safety; the setup itself is twisty enough.

[Yosarian2]

Bah humbug. It seems pretty clear that the things that Al_kohaulec said folow on from what a lot of people said, mostly notably me.

I find it both irritating and highly suspect that Al_Kohaulec is being given credit for it and I am not.

Again, he set out a detailed plan that would involve two people claiming, and discribed exactally what would happen and how it would help the town. You wanted everyone to claim, and the reasons for why were more vauge. Big difference.

I also find Yos and Al’s turnaround on claiming quite scary. What, d’you have enough information now that you think you can get away with fake claiming?

If you've been reading my posts, I still don't know if I agree with the plan, too many thing could go wrong.

And isn’t trying to direct the cop and the doc a giant, flashing neon scumtell?

No one's trying to "direct" anyone here; "trying to direct the cop/doc" generally means telling them what to do at night.

[CrashTextDummie]

You guys are all sissys. Let's bandwagon chaotic_diablo and Mr. C and get this day over with.

[lordy]

Why should we vote for your scumbuddies?