Mini 343: Donnie Darko 0:0:0:0 Game Over

[Sotty7]

Vote:AniX

Why not?

[Sotty7]

Chamber: Honestly, you aren't making much sense. Sorry to tell you that. I think there are a lot of other people in this game who will agree with me.

Vote: Chamber

Is he not making sense because his last post was a little grabled? Or because you don't agree with the angle he took with Meme?

Unvote: Anix

[Sotty7]

Well, I do not like people who can not type well, but that is something I normally try to keep out of my lynch decisions.

I think his logic is poor, his ability to reason is poor and he seems ready to attack people for things that are in the benefit of the town. That is the reason for my vote.

OK I just wanted to clear up which one it was. I don't agree his logic was poor, I think it was a clash of play styles that kinda got out of hand early on. Although he did come across as jumpy after he accused Meme of OMGUS'ing him when she was voting AniX.

[Sotty7]

I have no intention of claiming to this wagon. I havn't done anything wrong in my opinion. Its a clash of beliefs nothing else.

If you really believe that, why are you still voting Meme?

[Sotty7]

....I'm not voting you

[Sotty7]

I'm also having a hard time determining Chamber's position here. I'm torn between stubborn townie or scum. So I went back and had a reread.

Chamber seemed to agree with me that his argument with Meme was a simple clash of beliefs but when I called him out why he was still voting Meme he corrected me and said that people who thought he was scum was were the clash is. While I think that reasoning is a little strange, I can see what he means. Even if I don't agree with it.

she's still scum.

Back this up. And, when/if you do, explain why your feelings about my scumminess is stronger than your feelings about anyone else's scumminess. And let me remind you that you went from saying that "most" of the four voting you were scum...then shifted it to "largely joking" and "wouldn't be surprised if two were" and "at least 1 is" when I called you on it. Basically, make sure you take a look at the one or two or three on your wagon you think might be scum and say why they're lower on your suspicion list than I am. While you're at it, please explain to me how

you'd

react if someone said "chamber is scum" rather than "chamber seems the scummiest to me" or "I think he's likely to be scum." Your unqualified statements are just plain

weird

-- there's an unwarranted arrogance in them.

Meme calls him out on his vote again and asks for reasons. Chamber does a nice sidestep and avoids the question.

Thats a fallicy. Its never the fault of the townie who gets lynched, its always the fault of those who lynch that townie. Scum and town behaviour isnt universal so you can't blame it on the fact that the person acted scummy, the lynching group just misinterpreted his actions as actions of scum when they weren't. As for the first part, I might get around to that later. Don't count on it though.

He attacks Meme's argument rather than actually answer her question. Chamber – do you still think Meme is scum based

only

on her helping to form a early wagon on AniX? She never even said “lynch all lurkers!!!” Would you have been as suspicious if Meme had band wagoned a participating player?

Chamber has been the main focus of attention but this caught my eye on reread.

Your explanation wasn't clear either...it would probably just be easier if you didn't post.

Anyhow, Scale took the words right out of my mouth with the Occam comparison. I'm going to put a fourth vote on chamber simply because I think that his contradictory posts indicate unclear thinking to me, more than just scumminess. So I'd like to see what kind of claim he can rustle up.

vote chamber

I don't like this quote for a number of reasons. Suggesting that Chamber just shouldn't post (I'm guessing this was a joke?), agreeing with something another player said without really expanding on it yourself and voting someone just for a claim. He admits himself that Chamber doesn't

seem

to be scummy, just confused. I don't know how that explanation warrants a fourth vote

FOS: Colonel Kurtz

I would also join in EmpTyger's call for AniX to actually contribute to the game discussion. We've had a lot go on already and hearing everyones take on it can only be good for the town.

[Sotty7]

This is fine with me I can understand what your saying, but I'd rather you post your own thoughts on the issues without having to be asked. The fact that you dodged Emp's question completely in the first place was what made you look a little suspicious.

[Sotty7]

Just out of curiosity, why do you want to hear from me?

Now that you mention it......

Chamber has been the main focus of attention but this caught my eye on reread.

Your explanation wasn't clear either...it would probably just be easier if you didn't post.

Anyhow, Scale took the words right out of my mouth with the Occam comparison. I'm going to put a fourth vote on chamber simply because I think that his contradictory posts indicate unclear thinking to me, more than just scumminess. So I'd like to see what kind of claim he can rustle up.

vote chamber

I don't like this quote for a number of reasons. Suggesting that Chamber just shouldn't post (I'm guessing this was a joke?), agreeing with something another player said without really expanding on it yourself and voting someone just for a claim. He admits himself that Chamber doesn't

seem

to be scummy, just confused. I don't know how that explanation warrants a fourth vote

FOS: Colonel Kurtz

How about not ignoring this whole post?

I would imagine that chamber isn't voting because he just wishes his girlfriend was hot like me.
If he's not going to talk, hammer him, resigned townies are the worst.

Resigned "townie"? Interesting.

unvote chamber

I'd like some sort of claim. Sorry about putting you that close to lynch, I was being impatient and stupid.

This all happened in the space of two hours and I don't like how quickly CK backs down from “hammer him” to a unvote after Meme picks up on his townie remark.

Vote: Colonel Kurtz

I'm a little concerned at the speed of the Camber wagon and how people saw fit to pile on with little or no reasoning (EmpTyger + Olio) Especially when his argument was with Meme but she didn't see fit to vote for him at all yet.

[Sotty7]

Sotty7, however, was somewhat interested in Kurtz so IGMEOY.

One question...why would I kill of somebody who I said in thread could be scum? Especially when I was the only person to vote them?

OK, I read though the big post by Chess83 and it shows that I really need to go back and re-read for myself before I start forming any solid opinions about what happened yesterday. I'll be checking back in with something more substantial hopefully by the end of the day if not tomorrow.

[Sotty7]

After reading back though the thread I don't really see what Chess is talking about when it comes to STD. Sure he pushed the lynch of Chamber, but I'm not sure if scum would be more willing to stick their neck out like that on day one just to lynch a townie. Chamber did initially contradict himself with the whole “lurker hunting is unproductive thing” then later saying Meme's actions were productive, so I can see were STD was coming from, he even asks Chamber to clear it all up for him. He also doesn't have very many posts during day one, so accusing him of having a plan and playing the town like a fiddle seems a little extreme to say the least.

I'm more inclined to believe Scalebane is scum cause he does follow along the Chamber lynch and helps fuel the fire a little. Then he starts the day off trying to throw suspicion on me for the night kill of CK, even though he agrees the whole idea of it is pretty WIFOM. Maybe my heckles are raised because he was trying to link me, but I just don't like the weak attempt to throw suspicion my way. That said there isn't enough for me to vote him yet, he has brought up some interesting points and is never afraid to articulate his point of view.

MeMe:
How do you know that CK and Scalebane know each other irl?

In this post in reply to me CK mentions it

How about that your post was a finger of suspicion and I don't really feel like answering it because your suspicion is based on the fact that I share reasoning with my best friend that I've known since birth.

Talking about how agreed with Scalebane's post about Meme's reasoning and how Chamber was scummy.

[Sotty7]

Listen up, folks. *I* killed CK.

Guess I'm just really echoing the rest of the town ...but why? This partial role claim makes me feel uneasy. If I was to come out with something as big as this I would disclose all information about my role that I could and my reasons for why CK was selected. At the moment it feels like you are withholding information and that makes me feel like I shouldn't trust you. Even though if your claim is true and in fact pro town (or even if you are the SK) then my suspicions of Scalebane would increase enough for a vote, I need to hear more form you before I can really make a decision either way.

[Sotty7]

With everything we have going on, I'm not to sure about the motives of people pushing the lurker, Anix. I get the slight feeling of them trying to distract away from the current discussion. That said I know Meme hates lurkers and STD could be the same but something about it doesn't really click. Why not just ask for a

prod

?

I really don't like olio's vote switch. I agree with STD's point about someone sticking their neck out so early in the manner that Chess has points more towards him being town over scum. He has been actively out there looking for scum and jumping on him so quick doesn't sit well with me.

FOS:olio

[Sotty7]

Meme – I totally understand your point of view as lurkers are a pain in the ass. I just wanted to put it out there that it makes me feel uneasy, even though I see were you're coming from. I see nothing wrong with airing my gut feelings and I will continue to do so.

And Sotty, please note that AniX needed no prod.

Noted. I will always wonder about people who lurk on purpose. It's always going to look really bad, I don't why you would develop a play style like that in the first place.
It's also noted how you (Meme) called me out on my post were as STD chose to ignore it. Different reactions from two different players of course, but it's also interesting.

Do you disagree with the points I made about Chess' post? That aside, it looks like to me that you and STD have forgotten one thing in this "Chess sticks his neck out this early ergo he can't be scum" -thingie: he entered this game as a replacement on day 2.

I don't think him being a replacement really effects it either way... but that's my experience.

Sotty:

With everything we have going on, I'm not to sure about the motives of people pushing the lurker, Anix. I get the slight feeling of them trying to distract away from the current discussion. That said I know Meme hates lurkers and STD could be the same but something about it doesn't really click. Why not just ask for a

prod

?

I really don't like olio's vote switch. I agree with STD's point about someone sticking their neck out so early in the manner that Chess has points more towards him being town over scum. He has been actively out there looking for scum and jumping on him so quick doesn't sit well with me.

FOS:olio

Something really bothers me here. You mention olio, MeMe, Chess, STD, and AniX- but don’t have anything to say about the Tyger/Scalebane matter. And the only other post you’ve made since then, [151], was a hedge on me. You’ve been silent on Scalebane, and to me it feels like you’re trying to distance yourself.

Nothing could be further from the truth. I had already called Scalebane out on trying to throw weak suspicion my way before you came out with your claim. (post 133)

Listen up, folks. *I* killed CK.

Guess I'm just really echoing the rest of the town ...but why? This partial role claim makes me feel uneasy. If I was to come out with something as big as this I would disclose all information about my role that I could and my reasons for why CK was selected. At the moment it feels like you are withholding information and that makes me feel like I shouldn't trust you. Even though if your claim is true and in fact pro town (or even if you are the SK) then my suspicions of Scalebane would increase enough for a vote, I need to hear more form you before I can really make a decision either way.

This was my post before the last one you quoted. I wanted to believe you and your claim as Scalebane had already blipped on my radar today. But as I said, I was having a hard time trusting you and your motives because you were (and still are) with holding information. Even after your last post, I am still torn. You point towards a person who is relatively high on my scum list, but still seem to be giving yourself a back door out, with lines like this

I am not vouching for Scalebane’s alignment. I do find him most suspicious, and believe him mafia, but I do not want to imply that I am guaranteeing his guilt. I am not. These are only suspicions.

I think you should name claim, you have claimed your “role” already so what is the big problem with following that part up?

Claiming my name would most likely give as much information to the mafia as it would to the town.

OK, the mafia would know not to claim that name if they need to claim later down the road, but other than that if you truly are pro town then you are hurting yourself by not letting us know. If I am over looking some great advantage that the scum would have if you revealed you name, please point it out to me.

Likewise the fact that you keep pressing me. You are arguing circularly. AniX or MeMe or *any* other player have also not nameclaimed. Should they? Well, given that you’re not pressing him to the same degree, evidentally not. Why is this? Based on your logic: I should nameclaim because I’m suspicious, and I’m suspicious because I haven’t nameclaimed.

You should name claim because you have already claimed to have killed one player, they have not. You need the town to trust you and take you at your word. Your constant side stepping is making you look worse and worse to me. I agree this would be a big gambit if you did turn out to be scum, but why are you insting on acting like such a distraction if you are pro town?

[Sotty7]

There’s no great advantage in my not revealing my name, just a slight advantage. But that’s an advantage nonetheless, so I’m going to take it. I have been accused by Sotty and Scalebane, among others, of withholding information. I’ve admitted this.

But it’s also true of every other player in this game.

And, to repeat myself, I have withheld the *least* of all players in this game. So I am skeptical of those suspecting me for this reason. And that’s why, until I hear better reason, I will continue to disregard the calls for me to claim.

I can see what you are trying to say here, but no else has come forward and gone,

“Guys, I was responsible for last nights kill.”

When you say something like that and expect not to be lynched or pressured you're living in a dream world. You need us to trust you so that you don't get lynched. Withholding some inforamtion isn't very trust worthy in my book.

But I hardly would call that “calling Scalebane out”. Considering what you have FoSed players for, I’d expect that if you genuinely did wish to call Scalebane out, you’d have at least FoSed him.

Actually when I posted that about Scalebane I was getting ready to vote him and I believe it was in between a time were you had posted a short post saying that you would be bringing up more detail soon. Since then I have found you a lot more discussion worthy than Scalebane mainly because of your claim and your choices surrounding it. This could also be due to the fact that Scalebane has basically disappeared lately maybe an attempt to stay out of the discussion/drop of peoples radar I'm not sure. Anyway, my point is I am unwilling to vote someone that you are voting right now because I am unsure of your current motives. Is that so hard to grasp? I FOS'ed Olio on a completely different matter cause I found his behavior sus. But when it come to you and Scalebane I'm torn. Would it make you feel better if I just FOS'ed you both?

1) Baa.
2) Ask me why I killed CK N1. Which is extremely odd considering you yourself were voting him at the end of D1!
3) Be uneasy about my not fully claiming. I’m commented about this elsewhere, but it’s apparently been common enough sentiment that nothing either way can be concluded.
4) State that you would vote Scalebane if satisfied by my claim. Why wouldn’t you want to hear any defense from Scalebane? Wouldn’t you want to hear *his* claim just as much as mine if trying to make this kind of decision?

1)Nice...
2)My reasons are out there. Yours are not. I have no idea if you thought the same as me, because you never stated that you did. I am not the only person who has asked you for your reasons.
3)I'm not sure what you mean here. I thought I already said I was torn. Could you rephrase for me if I am misunderstanding?
4)I would have voted Scalebane before asking to hear his claim yes. Mainly because it would have just been you and me on his wagon at that time (if I remember correctly) and asking him to claim at two votes isn't really the best way to go about things. I would have been interested to here more of his defense but he had already responded to both you and me at this point. If he had come up with some good points I could have always unvoted. Like I said before, it would have been early on his wagon for me to have done so.

If I haven't answered your questions well enough then let me know and I'll do my best to address them again, but your willingness to jump all over me when other have shared my view points is puzzling to say the least.

I have little to add at this point. However, I am closely following the game. I'll post something tonight or tomorrow.

Little to add? Are you kidding?

[Sotty7]

I'd agree with a sentinel prod/replacement. Actually prod for everyone would be nice, a few people have dropped of the face of the earth.

I have stopped calling for a name claim because it did seem to be grinding the town to a halt as pointed out by Olio. I still find Emp suspicious though so I won't keep quiet on that fact. Not only would we need to decide on a lynch target today but also recommendations for Emp's “vigging” so more discussion is really needed.

Scalebane is still number one on my list, but my evidence isn't really compelling. I don't like that he is trying to lurk in plain view and seemed to willing to give up a name claim (post 208)

[Sotty7]

So I suggest that if we do lynch Scale and he is town, that we then consider lynching emp, unless emp can convice the town otherwise... on the grounds that emp mislead the town. That seems logical to me. To me someone who leads the charge on a townie looks guilty. That is partially why I went after STD, as mentioned. He was the one who really led the charge on Chamber, not trying to dig that conversation up again.

Woah... I don't agree with this and I think I can see what Olio's problem is with you now. Emp hasn't claimed any investigative knowledge on Scale. Emp is working purely off a tell he picked up from Scale in that he was analyzing the single night kill like mafia trying to figure out where it came from. (correct me if I'm wrong). Sure

if

we lynch Scale today, Emp will be pushed some more tomorrow but setting up the lynch like that is crazy. This means if we lynch STD today after your points against him then you should be the next lynch. Also, Emp has stopped pushing Scale, he's now voting and pushing me, kinda makes this whole paragraph void, no?

Sotty:
I don’t believe you.

I don’t see anything that implies that you were about to vote Scalebane before I came forward. And I don’t like how all of a sudden you’re all “Scalebane is still number one on my list,” since I don’t see you ever being anyone near that strong.

Consider the deliberative analytic buildup before you voted chamber; you didn’t hesitate in trying to evaluate his situation.

But with me and Scalebane, your were nearly silent until I turned the spotlight onto you. You mention a few skepticisms of me in [151], but otherwise avoid the issue so completely that you don’t even mention either of us in [173], which was only your second post since I came forward.

First things first. I never voted Chamber... so I don't know where you go that from

As for the rest, believe me, don't believe me but know this. I am inherently thoughtful/careful player and when I am unsure in certain situations (ala you v Scale) I try and gather as much info as possible before jumping on either side. I was a little quite for awhile there, but checking my posting record on the site, I was busy during that time so I was quiet in all my games. Bad timing, perhaps but it's one reason. When my gut/thought process is clear I push on players that I think warrant it, (Olio, CK, early day Chamber) but as I have said over and over I'm still torn between you and Scale

Hypothetical question:
Temporarily assume that I’m telling the truth. What would you have done in the morning if you had discovered that you were a vigilante and your kill was the night’s only death?

OK I'll play along here. Honestly I would have kept quiet about it. Thinking about it I doubt that I would have even killed night one as the vig with nothing more than my suspicions to go off. I would have waited, but for the purpose of your question I would have kept this information to myself and watched to see how everyone else reacted.

[Sotty7]

Sure

if

we lynch Scale today, Emp will be pushed some more tomorrow but setting up the lynch like that is crazy. This means if we lynch STD today after your points against him then you should be the next lynch.

You seem to ignore the possibility that Scale and/or STD may be revealed as scum if lynched.

Not really, it's implied. Things would be a lot different if either turned out to be scum, I was working of what Chess wrote.

Wow, I wrote this awhile back. Sotty, did you notice that I wrote that we lynch Emp, UNLESS he can convice us otherwise? That is basically the rule for everybody. All I was suggesting is that if Scale would turn up innocent then we should look into and put some heat on Emp, BECAUSE HE DID MISLEAD THE TOWN. To answer your question, yes I would EXPECT the town to look into me and apply some heat on me if we lynch STD and he is innocent. I would assume that any good town player would. It kinda makes the paragraph void, except that we can simply sub your name in for Scale. Buy yeah it is kinda void, so why are you bringing it up? I originally wrote this is 164, repeated it in 216 making a note that it was originally posted in 164 and being repeated for clearification... so again, why are you brining it up if it is void?

Awhile back? It was Tuesday. I brought it up because I read it in the unread posts during my last post and it stuck out to me. The fact you were still talking about it without noticing Emp had moved on, struck me as strange.

[Sotty7]

I’m feeling a innocent vs. innocent vibe from Chess/olio, but I’d have no problem hearing more from them. And I’d really like to hear more from Scalebane, though for a different reason.

I have to agree with this. Olio seems to be actively hunting scum and Chess gave me a very strong pro town feel when he first came into the game. I will need to read back though the day to see if either of them are pushing their points towards misrepresentation of the other, which could be a scummy thing.

Emp – You didn't comment on my answers to your questions. Regardless of your role, you're in the position to kill me tonight and I would like to know if I have managed to sway you either way or not.

Scale – I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that you are in fact scum. When your neck was on the line you were posting constantly trying to save it. Now that the focus of the town has shifted to Olio/Chess and Emp/myself you have been very quiet. I think you are sitting back and letting the town fight amongst themselves. Get involved, ask questions state opinions. Do you think I'm scum? What's your take on the Olio chess debate? Who do you think is scum?

[Sotty7]

Any chance we could get some

prods

? STD, Sentinel99, Ixnayonthehombre all haven't posted in about a week.

Good to see you back in the mix Scale and you do bring up an interesting point about the people who don't seem to be around. I had noticed Meme seems to be on the edge of all discussions. She does weigh in from time to time, but I'm not sure if it's her usual play or not.

[Sotty7]

Sotty -- I'd like to hear your thoughts on Sentinel. I find it really odd that you fault me for being "on the edge" and yet seem to be quite comfortable with players who aren't anywhere

near

the edge.

To be honest I think back and I have no thoughts about Sentinel. This is not a good thing, I really want him replaced or to actually start posting.

This is exactly my point. That *is* your playstyle, and how you’ve behaved towards those players, and more besides. But you *haven’t* acted that way with Scalebane, which was what called you to my attention. (Nor with me initially, as well, though you have now that you’ve been pressed.) Especially the way you afterwards tried to portray yourself as having been so strongly against Scalebane. If that’s how you felt, why hadn’t you said anything? It just feels like your attitude towards Scalebane is different. You’re still the most suspicious player to me, and I’m keeping my vote on you.

You're making a mountain out of a mole hill here and I have come to realize that this is

your

play style. If you go back and re-read you'll see I was talking about Scale

before

you came out with your little theory. He was attempting to throw suspicion on me for a kill you did. Then I disappeared for a little while and like I said before I was away from the whole site! That's why I hadn't said anything during the initial argument between you and Scale. I have pretty much refuted all of your points against me Emp or at least brought up good reason for why I behaved in such away. We are just dancing around in circles here.

Also,
[quote="Scalebane "[219]"]I get the impression from Sotty that she thought I was the most suspicious out of the set [Scalebane, STD] which was what Chess brought up at the beginning of today. If sotty thought I was the most suspicious out of everyone in the game, I'm not really sure.<snip>

<snip>Scalebane is still number one on my list, but my evidence isn't really compelling.<snip>

[/quote]
Now you're trying to link Scale and me based on...what?

[Sotty7]

Sentinel99, Ixnayonthehombre need prods for sure. they haven't posted in over a week

[Sotty7]

But after you returned to the site, why didn’t you have anything to say about Scalebane then?

A mistake on my part, but I was caught up in your claim, which was has been a important part of the day. I agree I shouldn't have stopped talking about Scale, but it's not like I never mentioned him before hand. I feel like your pushing me because I “latched” on to him, when that just isn't the case.

As I explained in [247], a change in your playstyle.

My play style has changed at all. I got caught up in your claim for a few posts before looking back on who I found scummy.

I am here just to let everyone know. I am watching the whole sotty issue, will post if I notice anything or feel that I maybe able to contribute in some way.

Okay, I just recieved a "prod" for this thread while I was online again tonight checking for updates. The message stated a deadline of August 25. It also suggested that we begin talking. So here it my scummiest list. It is not very solid since I am unsure of a lot. It basically is going on what I feel is the underlying consistant suspicisions I have.

SCUMMIEST (these are not pairings, the fact that there are two for each number just means I consider both to be equally scummy.)
1. Scale/STD
2. Sotty/MeMe

OK, you're “watching” my situation can you explain why you find me scummy? Actually an explanation for everyone you find scummy would be helpful for the town when we need to discuss.

The last couple of posts from Chess has really confused me and I'd also like STD to explain why his list is as it is.

As of right now I'll be putting my vote on Scale for trying to throw weak suspicion my way for the night kill at the very start of the day and for Emp's points about him over analyzing the night kill. Also the way he lurked once the towns focus had moved away from him.

Vote: Scalebane

I would not be against lynching Sentinel99 either but I'd rather have him replaced. Anix really needs to get in here.

Emp – As much as I hate to rely on a claim I will do so if you still have enough suspicion towards me to actually kill me tonight. I feel I have answered your questions more than well enough but you obviously still find me scummy (several others seem to be following you too)

[Sotty7]

Sotty, to sum up why I think you are scummy, you are not dealing with the pressure on you very well. That is why I am going to continue to watch the conversation you are having with people.

What am I doing that is so wrong in your eyes? I thought I've handled Emps questions pretty well actually. The reason I didn't post a list is because I'm feeling pretty lost on this game, it's been an interesting one, but a lot of people here are hard to read. If your desperate for a list here you go

Scalebane – See my reasons for voting him
Sentinel99 – Lurked like crazy, came back then just disappeared again. Like Anix said he could be town, could not be. It was pretty suspicious how he vanished again
MeMe – Just a real bad feeling surrounding Meme. Nothing concrete but I feel like she on the outside of all discussions sitting back
Save The Dragons – Hasn't really done much of anything in this game and I would really like to see him post more
AniX – Same as STD but has increased posting lately in the face of a deadline.
EmpTyger – He's either SK or vig. Time will tell
Chess – Made some solid points on replacing. The argument with Oilo seemed to get a little bit our of hand
Ixnayonthehombre – I don't really remember much of Ixnay either actually. Post more
Olio – Seems to be actively looking for scum. His initial vote switch did confuse me, but I can see his reasons even if I don't agree with them.
Sotty7

I'd say Meme, STD and Anix are all on the same level of scumminess in my eyes and the same is with Chess, Ixnay and Olio

[Sotty7]

One question...why would I kill of somebody who I said in thread could be scum? Especially when I was the only

person to vote them?

WIFOM?

That was the point, even speculating everything about would be WIFOM. Why bring this up again when Emp has claimed the kill anyway?

And everybody has been saying lately about MeMe only going after lurkers, being on the edges of each conversation. I know this is just more water under the bridge, but I for one, agree with that.

What do you think about that? How do you think it reflects on her alignment. Would you like to see it change...what?

The continuation of the Olio/Chess argument is interesting. Chess seems to be ... really blowing up, but it could be seen as a frustrated townie or maybe Olio did catch him out. I'm a little weary after Chess seemed to imply I was a situation during my little debate with Emp, almost as if he was getting ready to place his vote there, but I could be reading too much into things.

Scale? Where'd you go again? Interesting to see you float off during a time when we had a deadline.

[Sotty7]

Glad to see Sentinel99 back and participating. I still don't like how he went from “I need to be replaced” to “I thought I was already replaced.” If anything that made him leap up in scumminess. Considering he was number two on my list, that's not really a good thing.

Wow, did nobody else read that? First off, he points out the fact that he refuses to vote in this game, ever.

He never said that. He said “If I was voting right now, I would vote...” Sounds like you're trying to put words in his mouth here. The whole attack on AniX felt like a reach really and I feel quite happy with my vote. I could be biased towards your agreements however because I still think you are scum, but I don't really see him badly attacking Ixnay. In fact he doesn't even vote for him. Your points about him being actively lurking are valid, but the timing of this vote just seems a little off and a little late.

I think that STD is the scummiest. He seems to have a freakishly strong hold on the popular sentiment in this game. In my notes, I wrote down that in post 26, STD seems to be deliberately spinning chamber's comments. This could just be an honest misunderstanding, but it doesn't feel that way to me. There seems to be a definite link between STD and Scale, however, that I can't figure. Scale has followed STD since the earliest stages. Could just be a coincidental agreement, a compliment of playstyles, but I doubt it. We can't really afford to assume coincidence in this game.

I know Chess already posted about a possible link between Scale and STD, but could you explain how

you

got this idea? Show a few examples and explain why you think so. Has STD done anything else that you think is scummy apart from the Chamber situation? Or does this possible link with Scale make him seem more scummy to you? If so doesn't this mean you find Scale more scummy than STD?

I'd appreciate some clarification on your part because you have been silent for a big portion of the game and knowing how you reached these conclusions would help the town

[Sotty7]

Sorry for disappearing on you guys the last couple of days but I hurt my back during the holiday weekend which sucks.

Sotty:

Anix: Show me where you've voted and I'll point out how you're not scum. Oh wait.

My comment about you "pointing out that you've never voted" was simply regarding your "if I was voting, I would vote" comment. It drew attention to the very absence of any votes in the game so far. I, in fact, would not have really noted it if you hadn't made that really weird comment with regards to Ixnay. Why not just vote him already?

Me explaining what you just asked me to explain. And am I the only one who thinks it weird that anix hasn't voted by page 14 of this game?

I didn't actually ask you to explain anything, I just found your vote a little strange. I know the reasoning or the logic your claiming for your vote, I just can't fully buy into it, like I said in my last post. The fact that AniX hadn't voted all game was a good point though.

@emp, I was waiting for someone to catch this. I was surprised that it was CK, someone who was not extremly active or leading the town, those people (IMO) are nk targets. My contradiction about saying I would have voted for him is based on my skimming of the thread. I glazed over it trying to get the basic points down and failed to see the actions of the STD/Scale pair in front of me. As for the MeMe being scum thing, yes I mentioned it, but had (IMO) more evidence and likelyness of STD/SCALE being scum.

You were waiting for someone to catch this? That statement sent a shiver down my spine and the paragrapgh really looks like your scrambling quick to explain it away. I almost shifted my vote after reading that but it would be based mostly on my gut reaction and I

still

think Scale is more likely to be scum than you. Although you are really starting to rise up.

Okay, I vote we go all USA PATRIOT Act on Emp. Seriously, we're getting down to the wire, and you claim to have information that you also claim to know is bad for us. If you've got something legitimitely earth-shattering, now would be a good time to share. Otherwise... Hmm... I was about to advocate a lynch, but I don't know if you're scummy, per se. Hurting the town, yes. I'm going to

vote: EmpTyger

.

I really, REALLY don't understand were this came from.

Okay... This is hard to put into words...

By willfully withholding information, Emp could potentially be creating a situation in which the town will rush into a lynch uninformed. I think that if you have some solid evidence that the town can work on, than you should disclose it and allow everybody a chance to go over it. Maybe somebody can see things differently than you. I don't see how withholding information can help the town. I mean, maybe, holding out on roleclaims, I understand that, but that's not so much withholding, as it's expected in the game. Ultimately, Mafia is a team game. You can't look at things, try and figure it all out yourself, and then try and convince everybody to go along with you. If you do try that, you're branded scummy, as has happened to me before. In Urban Legends Mafia, I

knew

that one player was mafia, but since I hadn't been pointing all the giveaways out the whole time, the town was (rightfully) loath to believe me.

The only information I believe (I could be wrong of course) Emp is with holding is his name claim. We have already had a big discussion about this and the majority of people don't really have a problem with it. I'm confused. Have you just read that part of the game or have you

just

decided that he is scummy because of that. It just really seemed to have come out of nowhere.

[Sotty7]

I'm not against a Sentinel lynch especially with his change of focus to Emp, but I still think Scale is a better one, that's why I won't be moving my vote. The claim from Chess seems fair enough, I won't be voting him today after hearing it anyway.

[Sotty7]

I don't really agree with either vig choice to be honest, but I can see the motives around the nomination of both. The only thing I'm really worried about is that by some twist of fate Sentinel is telling the truth about leaving the game and coming back and who ever Emp vigs is a townie then we'll be trouble tomorrow, factoring a possible mafia kill. Of course this is a worst case scenario, but I just thought I'd throw that out there.

[Sotty7]

Hmm, I don't think I have vanished at all. Sure I'm not as post happy as others as shown by Meme, but you can't deny you know how I feel about things. Scalebane has disappeared in the face of a deadline, like he did before when the spotlight was on him. That's another reason why my vote hasn't moved off him.

[Sotty7]

STD: Where did you track Scale too?

Scale: I don't like how you keep dropping in your role and how you are so confidant that your claim will save you. That said, while re-reading the game during the night, I came across a piece of information that kinda points towards you being pro town (IMO anyway).

During the twilight, I would like to point something out to Ixnayonthehombre: I'm the one who said that chamber always plays like that in past games. Also, I wasn't so much defending chamber, as much as saying that I didn't think there was justification for a lynch of chamber.

Sentinel: I'm not trying to squabble, but what you just posted is just plain factually wrong.

Scumminess isn't definite. What some call scummy others barely notice. It really helps to play or read several games in which others are involved to get a good read on them. Especially if its an old game, and you can tell definately the player's alignment. It helps you to pick up on their individual habits.

The thing is, looking at past games that chamber has played (and there aren't many where he's scum) this doesn't look like how he plays a townie. If you go back and look at some of the other minis he's played (mini 288 and 262) where Chamber is a townie, he's not *nearly* this aggressive. Although, there aren't any examples of him getting into such a "clash of ideas" before, so I guess that might swing things a bit on why he seems to be playing pretty differently than in any of the games I went back and read.

You've really contributed relatively little thus far into the game.

This was the discussion that drew Meme in the direction of Sentinel99 in the first place and I find it very hard to believe that Scale would show up his scum buddy in such away so early in the game. I think you will end up having to claim your role and results eventually, but I would like for you to wait until STD reveals his whole result on you.

Okay... I think I can post this now. Seeminly STD really has no basis for this and upon some digging I think STD is scum. So,

VOTE STD

Below is a copy/paste of a word document I made on my reread of Day 2, this focuses in on STD's role claim of tracker and the fact that he claimed to have tracked MeMe on N1... Enjoy.

I wouldn't say that he has no basis, I mean he did claim to be a tracker and I see no reason to either trust his word or just assume that he is lying. I agree that the fact he claimed to have tracked Meme while grilling her pretty heavily towards the end of day one is pause for thought, but I can think of a situation where he would do such a thing and still be telling the truth about his role. I'm on the fence at the moment with his claim, but I did find STD to be more leaning on the side of a townie as I read though the game, once he started to post regularly anyway.

Churita Chen makes sense as a stalker/tracker too me, but I do agree that she seems a relatively minor role.

Ixnay has piqued my interested with the way he defended his initial vote on Sentinel99 to AniX by saying that he thought he was mafia and it wasn't just because of the deadline that he was voting him. Then he unvotes because Sentinel99 returns from his lurk fest. Surly sending out two contradicting messages there.

I might as well add a list of people I think are scummiset.
1. Sentinel99
2. STD
3. AniX
4. Scalebane
5. EmpTyger
6. MeMe
7. Olio
8. Sotty7
9. Chess83
If the deadline is not lifted, then we need to start discussing who we are going to lynch and who we are going to nightkill. I'd be happy lynching Sentinel99, and having EmpTyger nightkill AniX. Getting rid of the two most inactive players would benefit us, even if they were town. But with the way Sentinel has been acting, I think he's Mafia.
In case the deadline is not lifted,

Vote:Sentinel99

AniX, you seem to completely ignore the fact that I think he is Mafia. And you did seem to me pretty scummy also. But that was only because you openly lurked, and were opposed to participating. That being said, it's good that you're participating now.

<snip>based on the fact that Ixnay's "lynching the lurkers is good for the town, even if they themselves are town" is the scummiest(or most naive) theory I've heard all game

Keep in mind that at this point, Sentinel hadn't posted in what was it, two weeks, three? MeMe probably knows. He wasn't really even playing in this game. He had already been prodded several times, and to no avail. We could've just replaced him, but I thought if it hadn't happened by then, it wasn't going to. And

Unvote:Sentinel99

'cuz he's back.

What difference did it make that he was back if you thought he was mafia? Maybe because once your partner was back you wanted to give him a chance to defend himself? Of course you revote him later, once it was pretty clear that he had painted himself into a corner (his abrupt switch to Emp as a target.)

Sorry it's been so long. I just all of a sudden got really busy and forgot, I guess.

@Ixnay

Why do you vote Sentinel, call him mafia, mention little reason when you vote, state he's lurking later, and then unvote him because of it?

I thought him to be Mafia because of his nearly month-long lurking. The only reason I unvoted him is because it looked like no one else was going for a lynch on Sentinel. Now that people might be interested in lynching Sentinel with the deadline, I'll gladly revote. It just seemed like my vote wasn't helping us along very much. I still think him suspicious because of that long strain of lurking.

Vote:Sentinel99

If you think someone is mafia you push the case and try and try to get everybody to see just what you're seeing. You did nothing of the sort. My line of thinking is that you saw an opportunity to make yourself seem more innocent by jumping on your teammate. Only you didn't really follow though with your plan well enough. You back out to give him a chance to save himself but when he only made it worse you were more than happy to jump back on the bus.

Vote: Ixnayonthehombre

[Sotty7]

How convenient.

vote: Scalebane

How convenient that your jumping on Scale without discussing anything? Yeah, I think so too.

Sotty: I think Ixnay is probably scum, but I can't vote that yet until the Scalebane issue is cleared up.

Let me explain why I'm not giving my tracking result quite yet.

I'm pretty sure that scalebane could talk his way out of pretty much whatever I'm going to throw at him. If I catch him in a lie, or if I find his action matches his claim, then that lowers the chance of us mislynching.

I'd rather not fully claim, seeing as I have hinted at my result, while Scalebane has barely breadcrumbed his role.

This is fair enough and I am more than willing to apply some pressure on Scale today, but I can't shake that he could in fact be pro town.

I second the call from Chess for Scale to reveal what he talked about with Emp both nights. The role is a strange one that's for sure and it sounds like searching mason partners. What with Emp already being a power role, I'm not sure if I can believe it.

[Sotty7]

I'm sure he means Emp not Meme

[Sotty7]

How convenient.

vote: Scalebane

How convenient that your jumping on Scale without discussing anything? Yeah, I think so too.

So, do you believe Scalebane is pro-town and why?

post 447

I don't like that the day is about to end when you have done nothing to further discussion and just jumped on Scale. Although I understand the vote, maybe you could expand on your worries and concerns surrounding him.

The claim is hard to believe so I'm temped myself to drop the hammer on him pending his defense. Despite finding him practically outing Sentinel99 in the twilight of day one, he did say and do a lot of things that I found scummy yesterday. This combined with this result from STD makes for a heavy case.

[Sotty7]

Ladies and Gentlemen, what did your buddy Dan Anix tell you? He declares 11th Hour in effect, mafia is lynched and there is no nightkill. Worship me and worship my hour.

So, considering STD pretty muched proved he was either the riskiest scum player ever or he is truly a town tracker, I would like to hear what last night showed him.

Unless my memory serves me wrong, but you haven't done a whole lot to help us be in such a good position. Sure you voted Scale but you were working off someone else's information.

I can understand why you picked me to track yesterday STD with my doubts on Scale after chasing him down the day before. Personally I suggest a mass claim starting with AniX and Olio. I'd be more than happy to go right after them and explain my reasons why I want them to go first. I think if we're careful we could nail the game today. (Working on the assumption that there is just the one mafia left.)

[Sotty7]

The order is fine by me. I'll claim my role and such then and all will be clear.

[Sotty7]

OK I am Mrs. Farmer the gym teacher and I preach the power of Fear and Love. I think Jim Cunningham is great and because I'm such a big fan I think I know everything about what is good and right. This makes me the cop.

N1:

Colonel Kurtz – Innocent

N2:

Chess – Innocent

N3:

Hombre – Innocent

My reasons for picking the Colonel night one are stated though out the first day, there was just something about him that made me think he was scum. Of course the guy didn't last the night so that result didn't really help the game.

Day two was long and filled with a lot of discussion, and throughout most of it I was set on investigating Meme. Mainly because I couldn't get much of a read on her and it was quite apparent that most of the town couldn't either. Then she had that little mini blow up with Emp which resulted in her making a claim at the end of the day, a claim that I found quite believable at the time. The toss up for me was between Scale and Chess on who to investigate and so I sat down and reread the game. I found the quote that I thought was Scale helping to out Sentinel99 during the twilight of day one, so that helped moved him down a place in my list. After reading I felt that Chess would be the best investigation that night as I found him and his argument with Olio to be quite interesting and confusing.

Thankfully STD tracked Scale and he managed to make some strange claim that was hardly believable, so with the lynch of him I just worked down my list of suspicion and Hombre was at the top. With him turning up innocent and with STD claiming tracker and leading the lynch of Scale yesterday in my eyes that leaves both AniX and Olio as the possible mafia.

Of course nothing is 100%. STD could have made a ballsy play as scum, but then how would he know that I went anywhere at all that night? Also my sanity is not guaranteed in my PM, but if my sanity was anything but sane I would have thought that my character would have found everyone guilty. After seeing both Olio's and AniX's claims I think that AniX is the play because it all seems just a little too far fetched. I was just waiting to see if Hombre would counter claim the doc.

Vote: AniX

[Sotty7]

Sotty's flavor is a little wierd to me. But what I got in the tracking result != Scalebane's. (It says Sotty was spying on someone, if people are curious).

I fear the only thing standing in our way is a GF with a fake claim of someone in the Darko family.

Vote: Anix

My flavor is a little on the iffy side, especially since my character is linked to a known mafia (Jim Cunningham) in that she just thinks he's all knowing and right. Of course that happens in the movie too, and it isn't until he gets arrested that she finally sees how horrible he is.

I'm leaning towards believing Olio and that there is a doc because of the lack of scum kills we had last night and on night one. So by process of elimination, all fingers are pointing towards AniX being the last scum.

The GF theory is a worry and I'm hoping it doesn't pan out to be anything more than that... a worry.

PPE: I agree with that order STD, but like you I think we are at the end.

[Sotty7]

This game was fun. Very confusing at times, but fun none the less.

The 11th hour thing didn't really work here that much is true, I just loved how you tried to take claim for the town doing so well at the start of the last day... heh that made me chuckle. I'm sure your style get results in some cases, so whatever works right?

This has been one of my more enjoyable games of late as we had quite a mix of good players. Thanks to Nonny for modding and like MeMe said, be happy the good guys won!