Mini 343: Donnie Darko 0:0:0:0 Game Over

[Chess83]

Firstly I will handle the second issue, you framing two people with the night kill...

Sotty7, however, was somewhat interested in Kurtz so IGMEOY.

The only other person who even mentioned him in any posts was MeMe. I'm not quite sure what other information can be gained from trying to figure out motivations for killing Kurtz, as he just wasn't a high profile player.

That mentions 2 PEOPLE in connection with CK. Like I said, I am not going after you right now, but that in conjunction with your actions with STD makes me think you are probably scum.

The first part is that you accused me of accusing everyone on the bandwagon, I was incorrect in that entry. I do apologise, I thought you wrote it and did not bother looking for the text to back that up. Again I apologize. Upon further review of your response, you seemed rather calm. This makes me more at ease with the possibility of you not being mafia. However, it does not change my opinion one bit about STD. He has got some explaining to do. For now, IGMEOY. I do know what it means yes, but you still implicate two people by connecting them to the night kill. Again, I am not saying definatly that you are scum, just that your posting that makes me think you deliberatly set them up planning on posting that entry the next day.

Again, I do apologise for me putting words into your mouth.

[Sentinel99]

Man, I really have to quit checking in every three days or so. Okay, I mean, seriously, verbose much? Uh, I would like to respond to MeMe I think it was who addressed me specifically: I made a reference to chamber's past behavior, but I didn't come out and say it like the other player. See post 59 for my reference. Ultimately, I didn't agree that there was anything lynch-worthy in the entire debate, and I thought we were wasting both our time and a lynch, which irritated me. I mean, I know we can afford a few mislynches, and that they're a part of the early game, but it still bugs me to see townies die. I prefer to wait until I see something tangible that I can point out as reason for my votes. *shrug* I hope that's what you had in mind by wanting to see my reaction.

[Save The Dragons]

Ack. This one's long too.

STD, you made more jokes than responses, as a counted tally of your responses will show.

Whenever I make a joke, it's usually because I feel the accusation against me is complete and utter bullshit.

However, the fact that there were 2x as many jokes as there was defense is a bad play, regardless of alignment.

Well, maybe if you don't have a sense of humor... [11!]

HERE'S MY INTERPRITATION OF WHAT CHAMBER DID.

OK. Chamber said lurker hunting is unproductive, then he voted MeMe for it, then he said she wasn't doing something unproductive. Then he said she was being productive, and that she was scum. I'm sorry if I got a little confused. I fail to see where his logic, or his meaning, is crystal clear. But as neither of us have yet to explain to the other why chamber's logic was faulty or excellent, it must be both. [12!]

in post 110, STD votes for Anix for seemily private reasons.

Not true. I stated clearly why I voted Anix.

Then why not state them in the form of a quote, instead of making me write concerning this again... once again it seems like a dodge.

It's not really a dodge if you can be bothered to write a bitchload in a post but can't be bothered to scroll up the page to see where I clearly say "I wonder what will happen if I vote Anix."

But if you need a quote, here it is.

I kinda wanna see what happens if I

Vote: Anix

Good thing I did quote, I was off. [13!]

In my book, poor logic and failing to claim are not enough to hang someone.

This isn't a court of law, this is mafia. In my book, that's an excellent reason to hang someone.

ONCE AGAIN I WRITE THAT I AM ACCUSING TWO PEOPLE! Not 7, two. Those two people are accusing me of accusing all 7.

Dude. It sucks that chamber got killed, but you can't get them everytime and you can't just go after everyone on a wagon just because 7 townies thought it was alright to kill chamber for his actions.

I stated that you were attacking everyone on a wagon. I'm sorry. That was an exageration. Your target was people on the wagon (me and Scalebane), but it was a bandwagon that 7 people agreed was good. However, I didn't mean to say you were accusing all seven. Lo siento.

To those in question, specifically STD, please stop dodging the points, reply to them so that we may discover your true alighment. If you are town then you have nothing to fear by addressing the points.

I've addressed them as best I can. Sorry if they weren't to your liking. That's ok by me, it looks like you're convinced I'm scum. If the town agrees with you, I'm in trouble (no matter what alignment) and I'll deal with it from there.

And you tell me that I haven't responded to everything. Well, some of the things I joked about weren't actually things to respond to, or things I could actually defend myself against. And many of your accusations are the same thing.

I.e. you accuse me of having a plan. I can either take the boring route and say "Pishaaw! No way!" or I could use sarcasm.

If you're not satisfied, try harder. I'm guessing by the way the votes aren't piling on top of me that the town isn't satisfied with your attacks. Next post I give will be small, I promise, because I don't see the point in throwing the ball back an forth, when I think you're probably town.

[Ixnayonthehombre]

Here is the actual entry in question where chamber supposedly contradicts himself.

chamber: I'll pose a couple questions since you've apparently got no answer for my challenge (and, to be fair, I know it's impossible to prove your blanket statement "lurker hunting is unproductive" -- just thought I'd try to make you stand behind your words):

--If I'd simply switched my vote to AniX without saying why I was doing so or by saying "bandwagon" -- would that have made you hurry to vote me?
--If I'd voted Der Hammer (who currently has no votes) with the same "yet to post" reason -- would that have made you hurry to vote me? In other words, is the fact that it's AniX that bothered you? Or the number of votes? Or, truly, the "lurker hunting" as stated?
--Do you consider AniX a lurker at this point in the game? (For the record: I don't)
--Do you think that a player who does something you deem "unproductive" is somehow more likely to be scum?
--Do you think that simply waiting for everyone to post once while NO ONE posts a second time (as was the case before my vote change) is a better idea (or more productive) than making something happen?

Thats a lot of questions to answer, out of respect I won't ignroe them this time, but don't expect such at future times.

1 no, I would note you switched without stating a reason for future analysis but not vote you immediately.
2 yes, Its the lurker hunting reason that bothered me, you tried to right off your vote with a commonly accepted tactic.
3 This early in the game I wouldn’t really consider him a lurker, but hunting player who have yet to post is as unproductive imo.
4 Its no that you were doing something that was unproductive, but that you covered your vote with a bs reason.
5 Making things happen is fine, you just ousted yourself as scum in the process, good for the town, bad for you. I encourage your fellow scum to make the same mistake.

'

Supposedly

contradicts himself...?'

--If I'd simply switched my vote to AniX without saying why I was doing so or by saying "bandwagon" -- would that have made you hurry to vote me? -------- 1 no, I would note you switched without stating a reason for future analysis but not vote you immediately.

He says he would not vote her for voting without a good reason yet later in the post

Its no that you were doing something that was unproductive, but that you covered your vote with a bs reason.

Note he voted her because she

voted...without a good reason?

Keep in mind that this also stuck out to us at the moment, even though he cleared it up later.

Unvote vote : meme lurker hunting is unproductive

So lurker hunting is

un

productive...

yes, Its the lurker hunting reason that bothered me

So lurker hunting is still unproductive...

Its no that you were doing something that was unproductive, but that you covered your vote with a bs reason.

Keep in mind that at this point, we thought that he was contradicting himself. We thought that he was just making a convienient excuse when he couldn't prove that lurker hunting was unproductive...he cleared that up later, but keep in mind that if you're a townie, and this is the last thing said in the thread, you're going to be a little wary.

Hombre, I beleive it is our third game in a row togeather... also, what is with the number games you been playing with my name? Is there any reasoning behind that or you just forgot the numbers and said "what the heck, I will have some fun!"

I just kinda forgot...I'm so used to calling you chess.

It's not really a dodge if you can be bothered to write a bitchload in a post but can't be bothered to scroll up the page to see where I clearly say "I wonder what will happen if I vote Anix."

But if you need a quote, here it is.

I kinda wanna see what happens if I Vote: Anix

I don't think that's what he meant...I think he wants you to expand on the sentance...what do you think will happen?...why AniX?

[MeMe]

I hope that's what you had in mind by wanting to see my reaction.

I appreciate you giving an explanation. That said, post 59 looks rather general -- not as chamber-specific as you indicated during twilight.

Basically, posting that you didn't see justification for the lynch seems really weird before alignment was known. If he'd have turned up guilty, you would seem unreasonable. Since he turned up innocent, you look like you were more sure than you

should

have been that he would. Do you see what I'm saying?

[Chess83]

In my book, poor logic and failing to claim are not enough to hang someone.

This isn't a court of law, this is mafia. In my book, that's an excellent reason to hang someone.

I never claimed it to be a court of law, that is what makes the game of mafia so great, people weight evidence differently. As I said, in MY book. I did not say that everyone was wrong for voting for him, I said in my book it is not enough.

I am also not saying that he did everything he could have done to save himself, he messed up. He was unclear at times and he refused to claim. However, you did lead the charge and did misrepresent him with your quotes, you also furthered the miscearities, none of which helped him or looked like you were truly trying to figure out what happened or what he was saying.

It's not really a dodge if you can be bothered to write a bitchload in a post but can't be bothered to scroll up the page to see where I clearly say "I wonder what will happen if I vote Anix."

But if you need a quote, here it is.

I kinda wanna see what happens if I Vote: Anix

Good thing I did quote, I was off. [13!]

So you reason is that you are curious to see what happens if you vote? Sounds like a silly reason. You are not curious for any reason, just curious? This sounds like a reason from d1, like a random vote. Surely there is someone whom you think is scum for a specific reason... Maybe there isn't, maybe you don't know who is scum and you are just trying to get discussion moved along.

I.e. you accuse me of having a plan. I can either take the boring route and say "Pishaaw! No way!" or I could use sarcasm.

Or you could just not respond to it. When you use sarcasim it tells me that you are giving the appearance of it not affecting you, you are trying to play it cool. Whereas I think most townies would just ingore it or reply attacking the supposed plan itself, not the accusation of simply having the plan.

------
Hombre
------
I just re-read this about 5 times to make sure I was reading it correctly...

--If I'd simply switched my vote to AniX without saying why I was doing so or by saying "bandwagon" -- would that have made you hurry to vote me? -------- 1 no, I would note you switched without stating a reason for future analysis but not vote you immediately.

He says he would not vote her for voting without a good reason yet later in the post

Its no that you were doing something that was unproductive, but that you covered your vote with a bs reason.

Note he voted her because she

voted...without a good reason?

Chamber says that he would not have voted for her had she simply voted for no reason, or claimed a bandwagon, rather he would have made a note that she voted for no reason for later reference. I added in some text to help show this...

1 no, I would [make a] note [that] you switched without stating a reason [for your vote] for future analysis but

not vote [for] you immediately.

It is not the action of her placing the vote as chamber says, had she not given a reason he would not have voted, but it was the reason that she placed the vote, to make anix post. Chamber saw this [wrongly] as lurker hunting.

Three players yet to post...of those, two have been elsewhere on the board since the game started...of those, one already has votes. I'll help out there.

As I said he was not clear often but it was logical. It was the fact that MeMe said she was placing her vote on somebody to in essence wake them up so they would post. That is productive? How is putting a third vote on somebody that early in the game for the purpose to make them post productive? Anix probably hadn't even been back on the forum by then. MeMe place the thrid vote on Anix [Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 8:22 am Post subject: 14] Anix's FIRST post is Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:04 pm Post subject: 28, 14 posts and 36 hours later. Confirmation deadline was not even untill Tuesday evening. MeMe was placing a thrid vote on someone for not posting 12 hours BEFORE the deadline to confirm!
I do not agree with calling it lurker hunting and probably would not have voted for her because of it, but I would have noted if [if I caught it]. It just is too darn early to lable someone a lurker.

Keep in mind that this also stuck out to us at the moment, even though he cleared it up later.

Unvote vote : meme lurker hunting is unproductive

So lurker hunting is unproductive...

yes, Its the lurker hunting reason that bothered me

So lurker hunting is still unproductive...

Its no that you were doing something that was unproductive, but that you covered your vote with a bs reason.

Keep in mind that at this point, we thought that he was contradicting himself.

Okay, this was alittle tricky. I can see how it looks like he contradicts himself, however keeping in mind that it is the reason he voted for MeMe, it becomes more clear. He is saying that MeMe's action [lurker hunting] is unproductive. To chamber the bs reason MeMe used was lurker hunting. I don't think that was MeMe's intention there. I think she was just applying a little pressure trying to get Anix to post, not accusing Anix of being a lurker. Reading this series of quotes with that in mind, chamber does not appear to contradict himself. The lurker hunting bothers him BECAUSE that is MeMe's bs reason [according to chamber]

Alle ist klar?

Final Notes:

Maybe I am onto a scum

Maybe I am not. I don't know. I would like to beleive that we know who the scum are but we don't. So in the interest of the town if there is not another voted added to STD by Friday 12 noon CST I will stop talking about this topic. Unless someone specifically asks tells me not to.

Apoligy accepted STD. As you can see by my last post in response to Scale, I make mistakes also.

PS, you can just quote it as Chess, forget the numbers... notice I forget the "Ixnayonthe" part?

Once again, sorry for the long post everybody.

[Save The Dragons]

So you reason is that you are curious to see what happens if you vote? Sounds like a silly reason.

You asked for a reason. Notice how he hasn't even posted today, after being laid back and non-commital yesterday. If he doesn't come to the attack or defense of someone, I wonder if he comes to acknowledge that someone's eying him now. Which he hasn't.

Vote: Anix

because I believe I took my vote off.

[EmpTyger]

[As posted in the V/LA thread and PMed to the mods, I will be having limited access during the end of this week through the weekend. I do not expect to need to be replaced.]

I think I might know what might have happened with CK last night.


MeMe:
How do you know that CK and Scalebane know each other irl?

[Sotty7]

After reading back though the thread I don't really see what Chess is talking about when it comes to STD. Sure he pushed the lynch of Chamber, but I'm not sure if scum would be more willing to stick their neck out like that on day one just to lynch a townie. Chamber did initially contradict himself with the whole “lurker hunting is unproductive thing” then later saying Meme's actions were productive, so I can see were STD was coming from, he even asks Chamber to clear it all up for him. He also doesn't have very many posts during day one, so accusing him of having a plan and playing the town like a fiddle seems a little extreme to say the least.

I'm more inclined to believe Scalebane is scum cause he does follow along the Chamber lynch and helps fuel the fire a little. Then he starts the day off trying to throw suspicion on me for the night kill of CK, even though he agrees the whole idea of it is pretty WIFOM. Maybe my heckles are raised because he was trying to link me, but I just don't like the weak attempt to throw suspicion my way. That said there isn't enough for me to vote him yet, he has brought up some interesting points and is never afraid to articulate his point of view.

MeMe:
How do you know that CK and Scalebane know each other irl?

In this post in reply to me CK mentions it

How about that your post was a finger of suspicion and I don't really feel like answering it because your suspicion is based on the fact that I share reasoning with my best friend that I've known since birth.

Talking about how agreed with Scalebane's post about Meme's reasoning and how Chamber was scummy.

[MeMe]

MeMe:
How do you know that CK and Scalebane know each other irl?

We all play together on BSW nights.

[EmpTyger]

Another interpretation that just came to me: CK and Scalebane know each other in real life, though 1) I have no idea if nonny's aware of that and 2) outside-of-game information

probably

wouldn't be used as flavor text.

Thought I'd throw it out there anyway.

MeMe:
How do you know that CK and Scalebane know each other irl?

We all play together on BSW nights.

So doesn’t your thrown-out-there-anyway interpretation apply just as much to you as to Scalebane?

[MeMe]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that you don't know what BSW

is

. If playing with someone there constitutes knowing someone "in real life," so does playing with someone here.

I certainly didn't mean to be confusing, though. Seeing as there's been a thread announcing play times in the mish mash forum since 2003, I thought further explanation of the term was unnecessary. Looking at the thread now, I see that it spells out the site name rather than using the more common abbreviation.

I don't fault you for your line of questioning, but it's a dead end.

[olio]

Chess, at first your case against StD seemed solid, but your last post feels like you're grasping for straws.

I read Sentinel99's twilight post as an answer to hombre's earlier analysis:

Sentinel99 - disagrees with the bandwagon on Chamber(defending him? IDK...he doesn't have that many posts)

[EmpTyger]

Listen up, folks. *I* killed CK.

<dramatic pause>

So, 2 things.
1) Something happened to the mafiakill. (And to a hypothetical SKkill.) While there could have been some protective ability, there is also a chance that CK targeted a nightkiller.
2) The tell I spotted: analysis into CK’s death. The mafia know that this kill isn’t theirs, so I would think that they would try to focus on who might have killed CK. And they would presume a single killing group, be it SK or vigilante.

Incidentally, now that I’ve come forward, I’m going to state my target inthread to allow them to defend themself. I strongly advise that players do better than chamber.


Scalebane:
I feel that you seem to be analyzing CK’s death from the standpoint of a sole killer being responsible for that choice. You were the first to try to analyze the nightkill. And some of Chess’s points against you, albeit in the context of accusing STD, could hold.

Side note: I don’t get why you focus on Sotty for mentioning CK, but don’t even mention my question of him. But this para., for example, seems like you’re searching for a SK’s kill:

<snip>Sotty7: I'm watching you simply because you were one of the few people who even mentioned Kurtz. Honestly, I simply did a thread search for whose posts his name even showed up in, and it was quite a short list. And the answer to your question is obvious: You might have killed CK even though you implied that he was scum and you were the only person to vote him because those facts provide the perfect cover for your own actions by providing you with the ability to claim that it would be really stupid for you to kill him in the light of the fact that you implied that you thought he was scum and that you were the only person to vote him. So your argument doesn't really help you all that much. I'm not accusing you of anything, I'm simply saying that I'm watching you because you were one of ... 3 or so people who even mentioned him and he turned up dead today. That's enough reason to note and pay closer attention to you in my mind. And I think MeMe's mention was simply in a list, which is why I said that IGMEOY and not on her. Even though, I suppose, I do have two eyes.<snip>

STD:
Not yet sure what to make of the debate between you & Chess. 2 questions:

<snip>

Because you are chasing him for no reason.

I hope I won't have to say this to any female in my lifetime, but: just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not there.

I’ll bite. What’s it?

<snip>Are you seriously saying that Scalebane should have accused both myself and himself of being scum because chamber got killed? Dude. It sucks that chamber got killed, but you can't get them everytime and you can't just go after everyone on a wagon just because 7 townies thought it was alright to kill chamber for his actions.<snip>

Well, CK was protown, and presumably you’d know your own alignment. How did you clear the other 5?


Chess:

<snip>Maybe I am onto a scum

Maybe I am not. I don't know. I would like to beleive that we know who the scum are but we don't. So in the interest of the town if there is not another voted added to STD by Friday 12 noon CST I will stop talking about this topic. Unless someone specifically asks tells me not to.<snip>

If you have something to add, add it.


MeMe:
Ah, thanks for explaining the BSW reference- indeed I hadn’t recognize it. However, it might not be a dead end. Consider (1) above: there is not only the question of whether someone targeted CK because they knew him irl, but whether CK targeted someone because he knew them irl.


Ixnay:

<snip>...If I may inquire about post #85 may I ask 'What do you want to hear from him...that was a bit of a random request...'<snip>

I’m assuming this loose end is now moot?

[Scalebane]

Whoah, whoah. Wait, you're claiming vig? why did you kill CK? How is deciding to vig a random person night 1 a pro-town action? Or perhaps you're SK claiming Vig? or *mafia* claiming vig? What's your role?

The reason why I focused on a single person was simply because there was only one person who mentioned CK in any kind of context. There was MeMe (who mentioned him in a list) and Sotty who was aggressive towards CK. That's it. Before you came out and claimed ... whatever you claimed ... I thought that CK was a strange target for a nightkilling, especially as he was pretending to be a newbie. If he was targeted by the mafia, it had to either be because they chose to kill someone somewhat at random or because they were trying to frame sotty. No, I don't honestly think sotty is

much

more suspicious than anybody else. But I thought (in that post) that the fact that he and meme were the only people to even mention CK's name Day 1 was significant. And by watching what sotty said in his posts and how different people interacted with him, I could gain some insight into this game.

But, your post honestly leaves me with no choice but to

Vote: EmpTyger

. It's not OMGUS. It's that you just made yourself extremely suspicious.

[Save The Dragons]

<snip>

Because you are chasing him for no reason.

I hope I won't have to say this to any female in my lifetime, but: just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not there.

I’ll bite. What’s it?

The reason? I'm voting Anix because he has yet to do stuff today and was non-commital yesterday. I wanted to see how he would respond if something went his way.

<snip>Are you seriously saying that Scalebane should have accused both myself and himself of being scum because chamber got killed? Dude. It sucks that chamber got killed, but you can't get them everytime and you can't just go after everyone on a wagon just because 7 townies thought it was alright to kill chamber for his actions.<snip>

Well, CK was protown, and presumably you’d know your own alignment. How did you clear the other 5?

You're right. My bad. I didn't mean to imply that I thought the 7 were townies. I meant to say that I was not alone in my suspicions even if 2 or 3 were scum.

[AniX]

The reason? I'm voting Anix because he has yet to do stuff today and was non-commital yesterday. I wanted to see how he would respond if something went his way.

Am I suppose to do something crazy? I'm afraid you've given me the case of stage fright and now I don't know what to do.

I don't really know how to respond to this "something went my way". When I first saw it, I didn't know what you were planning to see and I still don't know what you are planning to see. Am I suppose to flip out at one vote? Am I suppose to bitch or moan? You really need to tell me these things beforehand so I can live up to expectations here.

[Ixnayonthehombre]

1) Something happened to the mafiakill. (And to a hypothetical SKkill.) While there could have been some protective ability, there is also a chance that CK targeted a nightkiller.

Doc, roleblocker, bulletproof townie, lazy Sk, simultanious targeting, any combination it could have been.
Can I just ask you: why CK?
Did you think that he would be Mafia? Did you think that he would give us information? We probably would have been better off with a slightly more active person dead(more information to draw back on) but if you thought that he was Mafia or SK or had another reason for targeting him, then thats alright.

[Chess83]

Wow, I didn't get a email informing me of the posts, what a surprise. To make it clear I do not have anything to add, yet. I write yet because as we all know this game changes, people write things and that changes the arguments against them. I would like the clearification of your claim, Emp. You said that you killed CK, I also am asking why him? Also, by claiming this you are saying that there is a role-blocker. If that is true then they now know that they hit a scum, in which case they just did the cop's job.
I would like them to say who they got, but I am not going to ask them to come out, because we need more information, not to mention that they would die after they claimed.

To reiterate, I want to hear more about this claim and everything surrounding it. Please make it clear what role you are claiming and why you targeted CK.

[Scalebane]

Chess, CK was a roleblocker. I find it a bit doubtful that we would have more than one in this game. If he did find a mafia, we won't know until the game is over.

And Hombre made some good points about the lack of actual information revealed by CK's death and Emp's "claim".

[MeMe]

Ah, thanks for explaining the BSW reference- indeed I hadn’t recognize it. However, it might not be a dead end. Consider (1) above: there is not only the question of whether someone targeted CK because they knew him irl, but whether CK targeted someone because he knew them irl.

My "dead end" comment was in reference to you thinking I might know CK in real life. I do find your block theory quite interesting.

Those of you questioning "why CK" -- did none of you find his end of day scramble suspect?

Especially

once chamber's alignment was revealed?

Still, I'd like EmpTyger to clarify what he's claiming. Your ability's out there, so why hedge?

[Chess83]

Okay, I just reviewed the CK/Emp discussion prior to the lynch. It is obvious as stated by MeMe stated above. The question remains what we gain by this claim of Emp. Why claim now Emp, you cast some doubt on Scale in reference to my accusations against STD, but nothing really solid at all. What is the purpose of claiming now? Why not wait for the scum to stick their heads out so far trying to figure out what happened that it is obvious, then go back and list everything at once, the catalogue of their demise as it were. This lack of planning on your part makes me suspicious of you. Please explain because seemingly I don't see any knowledge coming from this action except that CK was killed by you, our Vig? But that does not get us closer to the scum, which is the point of the game correct? Just lets the scum know who the Vig is.

[olio]

I believe EmpTyger based on "too foolhardy a stunt to play from mafia at this moment", but at the same time "the perfect claim for a SK" is nagging in the back of my head.

I'd like to hear your rolename, if that's allowed by rules.

[olio]

"your" meaning EmpTyger

[Save The Dragons]

The reason? I'm voting Anix because he has yet to do stuff today and was non-commital yesterday. I wanted to see how he would respond if something went his way.

Am I suppose to do something crazy?

I kind of expected it, but that'll do.

Unvote

*waits patiently*