Mini 343: Donnie Darko 0:0:0:0 Game Over

[chamber]

Well, if you think the scum are voting you -- why the heck are you still voting

me

? I don't necessarily want you to claim at this point, but take a look at the lay of the land:

--Four are voting you (STD, Der Hammer, Scale, Colonel)
--Another said you looked jumpy (Sotty)
--Another said he's not sure which of you or AniX had a worse reaction (EmpTyger)

That's six people PLUS me who think the way you've behaved is worthy of note -- and not in a good way. That means that even if there are four baddies in this game (and you're not one of them), at least three townfolk are taking a hard look at you. That's quite a few this early in the game -- and that means that, if you're not scum, you're serving as a red herring. Does that make sense?

What you said makes perfect sence. What I said already accounted for that, well kind of. I was largly joking about all the scum being on me, I wouldnt be suprised if two were though, and Id say at least 1 is. As for the majority of the town thinking I'm scum, thats their fault for mis-judging me.

[Sotty7]

I have no intention of claiming to this wagon. I havn't done anything wrong in my opinion. Its a clash of beliefs nothing else.

If you really believe that, why are you still voting Meme?

[chamber]

I have no intention of claiming to this wagon. I havn't done anything wrong in my opinion. Its a clash of beliefs nothing else.

If you really believe that, why are you still voting Meme?

Why you think I'm scum is the clash, she's still scum.

[Sotty7]

....I'm not voting you

[chamber]

....I'm not voting you

I do that sometimes by mistake, the you there is actually suposed to be "the people who think im scum"

[MeMe]

she's still scum.

Back this up. And, when/if you do, explain why your feelings about my scumminess is stronger than your feelings about anyone else's scumminess. And let me remind you that you went from saying that "most" of the four voting you were scum...then shifted it to "largely joking" and "wouldn't be surprised if two were" and "at least 1 is" when I called you on it. Basically, make sure you take a look at the one or two or three on your wagon you think might be scum and say why they're lower on your suspicion list than I am. While you're at it, please explain to me how

you'd

react if someone said "chamber is scum" rather than "chamber seems the scummiest to me" or "I think he's likely to be scum." Your unqualified statements are just plain

weird

-- there's an unwarranted arrogance in them.

As for the majority of the town thinking I'm scum, thats their fault for mis-judging me.

I'll turn this right back to you and say that your vote on me is a product of either your misjudgment or non-town alignment. I'll once again point out that at least four townfolk agree that

your behavior

is the problem -- not our judgment. Continuing to be obstinate with your original vote while basically calling everyone who questions you scummy and/or lacking in judgment for doing so is unhelpful to say the least. I'm undecided on whether it's more scummy or stubborn -- so I'm eagerly awaiting your reply to help me figure it out.

[chamber]

As for the majority of the town thinking I'm scum, thats their fault for mis-judging me.

I'll turn this right back to you and say that your vote on me is a product of either your misjudgment or non-town alignment. I'll once again point out that at least four townfolk agree that

your behavior

is the problem -- not our judgment. Continuing to be obstinate with your original vote while basically calling everyone who questions you scummy and/or lacking in judgment for doing so is unhelpful to say the least. I'm undecided on whether it's more scummy or stubborn -- so I'm eagerly awaiting your reply to help me figure it out.

Thats a fallicy. Its never the fault of the townie who gets lynched, its always the fault of those who lynch that townie. Scum and town behaviour isnt universal so you can't blame it on the fact that the person acted scummy, the lynching group just misinterpreted his actions as actions of scum when they weren't. As for the first part, I might get around to that later. Don't count on it though.

[MeMe]

Um...no. It's the job of a pro-town player to LOOK pro-town so that other pro-town players can pick them out.

And if you can't be bothered to answer reasonable questions, I probably won't be bothered to continue to give you the benefit of the doubt. Doesn't that seem fair?

[chamber]

Um...no. It's the job of a pro-town player to LOOK pro-town so that other pro-town players can pick them out.

And if you can't be bothered to answer reasonable questions, I probably won't be bothered to continue to give you the benefit of the doubt. Doesn't that seem fair?

And I'm saying pro town for me isn't the same as pro town for others, If I am pro town then I'm obviously acting as I do when pro town. And thats perfectly reasonable.

[Sentinel99]

I think chamber has a good point there. Scumminess isn't definite. What some call scummy others barely notice. It really helps to play or read several games in which others are involved to get a good read on them. Especially if its an old game, and you can tell definately the player's alignment. It helps you to pick up on their individual habits. I think that this wagon is a little strange. As chamber has said, it's a clash of ideas, not anything actually tangible.

That said, I find chamber to be irritatingly obstinate about his vote on MeMe. chamber, can you say specifically why you're on MeMe so?

[olio]

Its never the fault of the townie who gets lynched, its always the fault of those who lynch that townie.

Even when that townie just plays plain lousy? Even when that townie refuses to claim?

Oh, and can you please elaborate what you mean with your last post. I didn't quite get it.

[EmpTyger]

AniX:
Don’t like your behavior more than I don’t like chamber’s. For someone at the epicenter of the whole debate, you’ve gone out of your way to avoiding committing yourself, even when directly asked. I strongly suggest you participate fully quite quickly- you are most suspicious in my eyes…


chamber:
…but I see you as a strong enough second that I have no problems first dealing with your suspicious behavior and illogic.

Vote: chamber

. This puts you at 6 votes, and thus lynch-1. Unless your skill at defending yourself gets miraculously better, you’d I suggest you claim.

[MeMe]

Scumminess isn't definite.

Well, of

course

it isn't. If scumminess were definite, pro-town players would never vote other pro-town players. But to lay all of the blame at the voters' feet while giving the votee a free pass is just ridiculous. I don't know whether to laugh or be horrified that someone who's been on the site for more than half a year has put forth a theory that says, "if I look scummy to others and get lynched for it, it isn't MY fault." If you're pro-town and you start to get bandwagoned for your behavior, you should STOP your behavior. And here's a free tip: even if you're

scum

and get bandwagoned for your behavior it's kinda weird to keep it up -- which is why I'm having such a hard time figuring out whether or not chamber's a good vote. Regardless of alignment, his play is not optimal for anyone but a suicidal.

My current thinking is that because scum are more likely to hold on to a plan that's been shown to be poor (townies, when logic errors are pointed out, tend to be more open-minded), chamber's probably scum. But since it's so early in the game and there's not really a "plan" on the table -- it doesn't fit the principle terribly well.

And I think we need a vote count as mine doesn't match EmpTyger's.

[Der Hammer]

I think your digging yourself in deeper Chamber and not making much of a proper argument

[Scalebane]

I think I agree with MeMe on the vote count (Chamber has 5 votes and is 2 away from lynch).

The arrogance shown by Chamber's posts is what confuses me the most. It has always been a frustration of mine in mafia games when townies refuse to fight against their own lynching. It's so contrary to the spirit of the game. The town doesn't want townies to get lynched. That's in the rules of the game. So it's the job of each and every townie to try and keep from looking suspicious to other townies so that the town doesn't end up lynching them. And it's the same job for the scum, too. To avoid getting lynched. So I just really struggle to figure out why people don't fight.

I guess, primarily, It's that I don't understand the IS's of this game. I've had it explained to me that there are two different ways of playing. You can try to always look like scum. Or you can try and always look like a townie. but I still just don't get it.

The thing is, looking at past games that chamber has played (and there aren't many where he's scum) this doesn't look like how he plays a townie. If you go back and look at some of the other minis he's played (mini 288 and 262) where Chamber is a townie, he's not *nearly* this aggressive. Although, there aren't any examples of him getting into such a "clash of ideas" before, so I guess that might swing things a bit on why he seems to be playing pretty differently than in any of the games I went back and read. Regardless, I think chamber is a decent day 1 lynch considering what we have to go on. (past history, a few days of posts)

[Sotty7]

I'm also having a hard time determining Chamber's position here. I'm torn between stubborn townie or scum. So I went back and had a reread.

Chamber seemed to agree with me that his argument with Meme was a simple clash of beliefs but when I called him out why he was still voting Meme he corrected me and said that people who thought he was scum was were the clash is. While I think that reasoning is a little strange, I can see what he means. Even if I don't agree with it.

she's still scum.

Back this up. And, when/if you do, explain why your feelings about my scumminess is stronger than your feelings about anyone else's scumminess. And let me remind you that you went from saying that "most" of the four voting you were scum...then shifted it to "largely joking" and "wouldn't be surprised if two were" and "at least 1 is" when I called you on it. Basically, make sure you take a look at the one or two or three on your wagon you think might be scum and say why they're lower on your suspicion list than I am. While you're at it, please explain to me how

you'd

react if someone said "chamber is scum" rather than "chamber seems the scummiest to me" or "I think he's likely to be scum." Your unqualified statements are just plain

weird

-- there's an unwarranted arrogance in them.

Meme calls him out on his vote again and asks for reasons. Chamber does a nice sidestep and avoids the question.

Thats a fallicy. Its never the fault of the townie who gets lynched, its always the fault of those who lynch that townie. Scum and town behaviour isnt universal so you can't blame it on the fact that the person acted scummy, the lynching group just misinterpreted his actions as actions of scum when they weren't. As for the first part, I might get around to that later. Don't count on it though.

He attacks Meme's argument rather than actually answer her question. Chamber – do you still think Meme is scum based

only

on her helping to form a early wagon on AniX? She never even said “lynch all lurkers!!!” Would you have been as suspicious if Meme had band wagoned a participating player?

Chamber has been the main focus of attention but this caught my eye on reread.

Your explanation wasn't clear either...it would probably just be easier if you didn't post.

Anyhow, Scale took the words right out of my mouth with the Occam comparison. I'm going to put a fourth vote on chamber simply because I think that his contradictory posts indicate unclear thinking to me, more than just scumminess. So I'd like to see what kind of claim he can rustle up.

vote chamber

I don't like this quote for a number of reasons. Suggesting that Chamber just shouldn't post (I'm guessing this was a joke?), agreeing with something another player said without really expanding on it yourself and voting someone just for a claim. He admits himself that Chamber doesn't

seem

to be scummy, just confused. I don't know how that explanation warrants a fourth vote

FOS: Colonel Kurtz

I would also join in EmpTyger's call for AniX to actually contribute to the game discussion. We've had a lot go on already and hearing everyones take on it can only be good for the town.

[AniX]

AniX:
Don’t like your behavior more than I don’t like chamber’s. For someone at the epicenter of the whole debate, you’ve gone out of your way to avoiding committing yourself, even when directly asked. I strongly suggest you participate fully quite quickly- you are most suspicious in my eyes…

Personally, I haven't committed myself to a side because I don't see a debate. I think both sides are overreacting to a relatively small issue, I don't touch that shit with a ten-foot pole. You get facts or people acting scummy, I'll gladly offer my thoughts on the matter. But AniX don't touch the internet forum drama. Forum drama doesn't catch scum.

I am participating fully to the level I feel I can without getting stuck right in this whole "Hey, lets form cliques!" mentality. Its basically breaking down into chamber stepping on MeMe's new boots, and the whole high school is ABUZZ. Such things don't contribute to education in schools, and it certainly doesn't contribute to the mafia game.

Here is the way I see it: Chamber made an accusation, everyone jumped on him about it, and Chamber is now reacting in a classic paranoid fashion of accusing everyone of being evil to be against him. Not paticularly the greatest defense, but not making him any more scummy or less scummy than anyone else in this game. Much like MeMe is no more scummy or less scummy.

Until we start getting more facts and less "He said, She said." I don't know how much more "participation" I can give you.

[Scalebane]

What the hell do you want on day one, Anix? Mass roleclaim? Mafia to come forward?

[AniX]

If you are volunteering to do either of those things, I'm not going to stop you.

What I want is something more than "Hey, Chamber doesn't like MeMe's playstyle...GET HIM!" Chamber could very well be scum, and perhaps this witch trial will uncover these scum-nature. However, as it stands, I don't see chamber as anything more than an overzealous player, which, while not the greatest asset to the town, certainly isn't conclusive evidence of him being Al Capone.

So by all means continue to press chamber, as that is benefical to town knowledge and thus benefical to the town. However, I want to see some tangible evidence, so I'm afraid I cannot choose a side, as Emp has demanded, until I see some.

[Sotty7]

This is fine with me I can understand what your saying, but I'd rather you post your own thoughts on the issues without having to be asked. The fact that you dodged Emp's question completely in the first place was what made you look a little suspicious.

[EmpTyger]

Mea culpa on the votecount. Not sure how that happened.


AniX:

<snip>I think both sides are overreacting to a relatively small issue,<snip>

Then why did you not say that when I asked what you think of the issue! In fact, if you genuinely did believe this, why *wouldn’t* you say something? The fact that you were willing to sit back and be passive while the town pursued a course that *you* believed was unproductive is confirming my suspicion of you.

[AniX]

Did I say it was unproductive? I believe I stated that pressing chamber further was a infomation-barring course of action. However, on the flip side, I don't believe chamber has done anything to reveal himself to be scum. So basically, either way I would respond to things when I was first pressed, someone is going to misintepret what I have stated as either "ANIX THINKS CHAMBER IS SCUM, BUT ISN'T VOTING HIM. SUSPECT!" or "ANIX THINKS CHAMBER IS TOWN! PROTECTING SCUM PARTNER!" because both sides have proven their tendencies to blow an issue out of proportion, and as I stated, not something I like getting involved in. So, I took the course of action I normally take when no solid facts exist and thus speculation would lead already over-reacting people to overreact: I made a joke. (And it was hilarious.) And in doing so, it seems to set up the exact thing I wished to avoid...Someone look at the joke, and, instead of laughing went "JESUS RIDING A TRICYCLE THROUGH AN ARAB COUNTRY! ANIX IS TRYING TO DIVERT OUR ATTENTION WITH SCUM TACTICS!" when I actually was trying to say "Hey, I'm niether dead nor not paying attention to the game."

I bet you are going to take one look at this post and explain "ANIX KNOWS OUR LOGICAL TACTICS ALL TOO WELL. HE MUST BE SCUM!"

[chamber]

I'm still alive? Awsome. Also props to AniX for reconizing the situation.

[MeMe]

Just pointing out, chamber, that if you're town AniX may "recognize the situation" because he

knows

you're town.

I rather like my vote.

[nonny]

VOTE COUNT
AniX(1): MeMe
MeMe(1): Chamber
Chamber(4): Save the dragons, Der Hammer, Scalebane, Colonel Kurtz
Sotty7(1): BrizzyBoi

Not Voting: AniX, Olio, EmpTyger, Sentinel99, Sotty7