New York 146 Zach's Insane Mafia World (OVER)

[Tammy]

Awe thanks! You can welcome me greatly though by taking your vote off my slot. Hey Magua...great theory...awesome...though wrong it is. (I mean I've read this page and the previous page, don't know if it's backed up with anything more wonderful than this. All I know is I've drawn my favorite role (VT) and I don't have to pretend about it because for some reason you guys...massclaimed??? On day two??? I hate you all for the record.)

More to come...

[Tammy]

Fact: Ghostlin is a confirmed neighborizer and is therefore (IMO) town. I have never played in a game where the person doing the neighborizing was scum, therefore...for me...Ghostlin is town. Unless Ghostlin and his selected neighbor are all scum working together on a master gambit which I doubt is the case.

Sorry in advance if I'm parroting all over the place (this goes for everything...just gonna do it once...I'm going through the thread...so yeah...)

Are you serious??? Do you really think a neighborizer is comfy town? Really???

[Tammy]

Seeing as how I've only read the last two pages, I can't give you answers to either. Though

1) SK is not me...keep trying

2) Don't know. give me a minute

[Tammy]

Oh...and Magua...totally exhilarating...it's been awhile since I've been actually suspected for something real in a game....though not really...hmnmm...

[Tammy]

Oh...and Magua...totally exhilarating...

it's been awhile since I've been actually suspected for something

real in a game....though not really...hmnmm...

I know the bolded statement to be false. So kindly elucidate (when you've read) what "something real" means to you.

Do you now...this is false. I mean I've been suspected by something actually real...which in the case you've bolded me for is false.

I mean you can play it what ever way you want to...doesn't actually mean anything now does it.

What I mean by the bolded is it's been a long damn time since I've had anything but paranoiac ramblings tossed at me in a game. So what that someone in a game here has suspected me...does not mean it's real cuz it's not true.

Do you think I'm stupid? Seriously, give me more credit than that.

I find it practically exhilarating to prove myself in some scummy slot...is all. :shrug:

[Tammy]

^^^^^^^^

Oh. My. Gods.

Does that make sense to anyone?

[Tammy]

Oh...and Magua...totally exhilarating...

it's been awhile since I've been actually suspected for something

real in a game....though not really...hmnmm...

I know the bolded statement to be false. So kindly elucidate (when you've read) what "something real" means to you.

Oh damn...should not play late at night when I can't make sense of anything. Something real means something that I've actually done to warrant suspicion in a game - you stopped your bold too soon Magua - the real part of the statement is the most important part. Bold all you want...won't matter. Your theory on the SK is wrong, cause it's not me.

[Tammy]

I assume there is an SK. Iirc I assumed there was an SK even before DarthYoshi claimed FBI investigator but I can't recall why I assumed it. I know I was leaning town on DY before he claimed so therefore I am inclined to believe his claim. IMO his claim supports the existence of an SK, though the continued lack of a 2nd NK 3 nights in a row is causing me to rethink my SK assumption a bit. Verdict...I think DY is town but he could be scum. If he is scum, I think he is the sk.

All right so what do you think of this theory in light of Magua's theory that Snakesplisken (me now) is the SK?

[Tammy]

Wait...so are you all actually clearing someone because of being a neighborizer or is it just really late, and I've had one too many, and should shut up?

[Tammy]

Misc: Kamrun is someone I suspect. Especially given his block on the claimed bodyguard last night. His claim of jailkeeper would be a convenient claim for a roleblocker to make and the fact he was neighbored by Ghostlin means nothing.

What does the fact that he was neighborized by Ghostlin have to do with anything?


Seriously, I wish you guys had an easier quote function thingy for those of us who are technologically incapable...just saying.

[Tammy]

Hey. Tammy.

I see you're still responding to things that have been said, rather than reading the 14 pages.

So I'll start easier.

Look at Zach's OP. Note the different kill flavors for camn and everyone else. Do you think there's an SK in this game?

If you don't, kindly explain what you think causes the kill flavor difference.

If you do think there's an SK in this game, kindly read the 14 previous pages and tell me who you think it is.

*pout* I am reading the last 14 pages. I'm a little bit of a slow reader, it's late, and I'm multitasking...

As far as whether or not I think there's an SK in the game...I haven't got a clue. I don't know about site differences, and if there's an SK in a game where I'm from it's advertised...we don't have to guess about this stuff.

However, you're right. Camn was murdered, while Baseline, Jason and Kamrun were shot dead. Yes, their deaths were different. Do you really think it's the cause of a serial killer though? Why weren't there more than one kill per night? I've only played one game that there was a SK in, so I don't know why they wouldn't kill.

(Totally wish I was it by the way. Way more awesome than trying to prove I'm not.)

[Tammy]

(Totally wish I was it by the way. Way more awesome than trying to prove I'm not.)

You've repeated this a million times. It isn't going to make me believe you more.

SK's are not necessarily advertised in the setup.

UMMM Hai..are you saying that I've said I'm not SK...which I'm not...a million times, or that I've repeated that I don't know the set up - which would possibly include an SK - that I probably wouldn't since I just signed up a million times?

Or is this hyperbole?

[Tammy]

Hey. Tammy.

So I'll start easier.

Since, you believe there is an SK, can you account for there not being two kills each night?

If you answer this is your wall...never mind I'll get there.

[Tammy]

I'm saying that you've insisted you're not SK. You've shown much interest in "proving yourself" rather than actually reading the thread and hunting for scum. But yes, the million times is a hyperbole.

Tammy, did you even read his case on Snake being SK? Snake has basically flaked on the whole game, which would explain his not submitting NAs. This would mean that a mafia kill did not go through on N1, where Kamrun probably protected someone (I forgot), or MOI protected DV I believe.

Yeah, I did read it, but read it backwards, which should be pretty clear since I said that Magua had a great theory. The only thing I know is my alignment, and his theory doesn't fit. So...there is a sum total of two posts by my predecessor in this thread, how am I supposed to get anything based off of that?

Are you telling me that my predecessor has flaked the entire game? You guys are in day five, correct? Are you telling me that he has been so incompetent for the entirety of five whole days that he couldn't submit one night kill? In five days? That should be four kills, correct? So, there should be at least more than one per night as has been recorded. You're telling me he's so incompetent he couldn't get it right at least one night?

Please tell me your not building your entire case on this.

[Tammy]

No seriously....

Players Dead:

RedCoyote Vanilla Townie turned Neutral Survivor Modkilled day 1
camn Vanilla Townie murdered night 1
Palisade Vanilla Townie lynched day 2
Baseline Vanilla Townie shot dead night 2
I Am Innocent Mafia Goon lynched day 3
ZmuffinMan Vanilla Cop shot dead night 3.
JasonT1981 Mafia Watcher lynched day 4
Kamrun Town Jailkeeper shot dead night 4

Please tell me how your theory of Snake...(me) as a serial killer fits here. I mean it's a wonderful theory and all...built up from the ground, it just doesn't fit with the evidence now does it. Sure the flavor of the kills is different, but please explain to me why there isn't more than one kill per night. Has anyone claimed guarding my VT character? NO? Oh geeze, I wonder why not. Perhaps that's because I don't have the capability to kill people at night.

And yeah, Magua, sure, me saying "welp, not me" doesn't prove a thing except it's the truth, and you really haven't proven why it actually isn't the truth.

But yeah, put some more of your valuable votes on my wagon...that makes sense...you should probably speed lynch me before I get a chance to really read the thread and make sense of it.

Oh and Alice...I don't think that word

acronym

means what you think it means.

[Tammy]

One of Alice and Jason are probably lying. I do not think there is a tracker AND a watcher. That combined with the fact they have both at one time or another raised my suspicions. Of the two of them I am probably leaning towards Jason as being the fakeclaimer based on the fact he (iirc) claimed way early when he didn't need to. Though as I type this...if I recall...Alice claimed when she didn't have to at all. But Alice's circumstances were more believable so I go back to leaning towards hers being legit vs jasons. If they are both telling the truth I will be at a loss for words. I know we are still waiting to hear Jason's 2nd visitor from N1. How his D4 starts will probably determine whether I vote him or not.

Do you think you could recall the circumstances of this claim for me?

[Tammy]

Yeah, that's what we're saying. If there's an SK, Snake's the only possibility for him. Look at his previous posts. He really has not been online that much. It's not a matter of incompentency--it's a matter of real world issues. Now you're just trying to WIFOM.

More votes on Tammy errybody.

So, the post in which he votes for someone and the post in which he asks to replace out?

All right. You make a world of sense.

<-----------Not as easy of a target as you seem to think I am btw.

[Tammy]

All right let's try this again. So sorry for nonsense posts - really should remember to eat dinner before going to the neighbor's party to avoid brain shutting down. I have no idea what I was trying to say up there. *idiot*

Really hate mass claims as I almost always get stuck with a role that makes me look bad or no role which also makes me look bad *see here*. Also, the roles tend to be used to figure out alignment rather than behavior which is just meh.

That being said it looks like there's a tracker, a neighborizer, an FBI agent (investigator?), a watered down finder, a jailkeeper, a bodyguard, and a two shot healer? Hmmm in a sea of VTs. Sounds a bit overpowered for town. Are roles distributed randomly here? So the vanilla cop and JK were definitely town. Still looks overpowered. At least one of those roles belong to team evil, or one of the VTs is lying *welp, not me*.

Is anyone alive CI'd?

I still don't know what to make of the SK theory; there should be at least one night that there was more than one kill.

When my head stops pounding I'll read the thread and try to make sense of the SK theory.

[Tammy]

So instead of doing just that and taking your time reading you have been responding to every little post from an ill-informed position?

That being said it looks like there's a tracker, a neighborizer, an FBI agent (investigator?),

a watered down finder

, a jailkeeper, a bodyguard, and a two shot healer? Hmmm in a sea of VTs. Sounds a bit overpowered for town. Are roles distributed randomly here? So the vanilla cop and JK were definitely town. Still looks overpowered. At least one of those roles belong to team evil, or one of the VTs is lying *welp, not me*.

Why does the bolded appear in your list when no-one has claimed anything of the sort?

Yeah, shouldn't have done that. I tend to cycle through threads and comment as I go through, but I shouldn't have done that in this case. I was operating under an incorrect assumption that the thread started at day 5 and didn't realize I was wrong until I got to the Tracker/Watcher thing. That and replacing into a game so late without having a clear picture, it was stupid of me not to adjust my normal approach. (That and the wine I drank on an empty stomach hit me a lot harder than I expected it to and was getting worse as I was reading. I mean I can form a coherent sentence even when I'm scum.)

The watered down finder is the vanilla cop. As I understand it, it just tells you if someone is vanilla, right? Doesn't actually tell you what role they have if not vanilla therefore is not a full-fledged finder.

[Tammy]

Maybe you're just mad Snake didn't do a better fakeclaim for you. VT shouldn't look bad unless you are suspicious.

Yeah, I feel like a Tammy lynch is good. Maybe we should just speedlynch her and ask questions tomorrow so that scum has less to work with.

Thank you. I didn't know what an FBI Agent was.

Why would I be mad at Snake? He didn't fakeclaim anything. VT doesn't look bad except some people think it's cause for autolynching.

Speedlynching me would just be silly. You'd be lynching a vanilla townie anyway, not your serial killer or a member of the mafia.

I'm making my way through the thread right now, but seeing as how you have an FBI Agent, why don't you just have him investigate me tonight? The results will come back not a serial killer.

[Tammy]

Geeze dude, back off. Don't need a lecture. Had an issue last night, back to my usual self.

Does the bodyguard role keep someone alive? I've never seen this role before. So, if redff is the bodyguard and if he would have guarded Kamrun, would Kamrun still be alive?

[Tammy]

You would have died, but you didn't. Which action resolves first here? The assumption is that you guarded Kamrun and Kamrun jailed you and that's why it failed, correct?

Sorry for posting before I'm actually *allowed* to, but can someone explain to me how this process works?

[Tammy]

So in this situation if you guarded someone who guarded you, you both effectively stared at each other leaving both of you vulnerable?

[Tammy]

So the jailing is the action that resolves first then?

[Tammy]

Yes, I understand that. I was trying to make sense of which action resolved first. At my site, if two guards target each other they basically just stare at each other because their actions resolve simultaneously. However, there are other roles that resolve in a specific order and that determines who blocks, heals, etc.

[Tammy]

All right finally done. This has been an interesting experiment. I've never replaced into a game so late before and with so little information; reads are also hard to get as I get my reads mostly from interaction I have with people rather than reading.

This incarnation of the thread began at day 4, correct? After I Am Innocent was lynched on day 3? Did anyone do any potential partner analysis or wagon analysis on Innocent? If so, do you recall what your most likely assumptions were and why? I don't see much of that in the case of Jason either. The only thing I remember is the wagon analysis MoI did to show Alice why the theory of DV being his partner doesn't work due to the competing wagons.

So, during Jason's lynching he claims to have caught DV making a kill and tries to remind everyone that redff has been a suspect for the SK role. Now either he was pulling one of those last "I'll throw crap at my partner to get people to think he's not my partner thing" or he was just going after an easy target. Don't really know what to do with DV. He seems rather jumpy and the not wanted to be tracked thing is a bit weird. Sure, he explains it, but not wanting someone to verify your claim, at least as much as is possible, is odd.

However, the fact that he claims that he was thinking about a fake claim makes me feel lots better about him. I don't know why someone said that town doesn't fake claim; they do it all the time. There was no reason for him to say that he was thinking about a fake claim if he's scum. Admitting to something like this is a thing I've only ever seen from town. It's not impossible to come from scum, but still I have a weak town read on him.

HF - Really think he would have backed off the DV thing by now if he were scum, particularly since it's not picking up any steam.

Darth Yoshi is town. His posts read town to me as does his concern over MoI still being alive. The only time I've ever gotten a reaction like this in a game, in which players are getting paranoid and suggesting I should be lynched out of paranoia that I'm still alive days after they think I should be dead, is from town. This reads as town driven paranoia and his interaction with Alice reads as town driven frustration.

What I find odd is MoI's reaction to his suspicion. When MoI replaced into the Kirby game, and he said who would probably be scum if they remained alive for too many more days with the player list, he said that he would say the same thing about himself. So if he knows he's going to get suspicion when he remains alive for a little while, why does he seem surprised or frustrated by it? (Although he handles it a lot better than I do when it happens to me.)

I want to have a town read on MoI, but can't quite get there. Mostly it's because the impression that I get from his scumhunting is that it's a bit too objective in presentation...too focused on verifiables that while are important are a really safe place for scum to hunt. I need to think about this one.

Other than that strong town reads include Alice and Magua. Alice because of role purposes and behavior. Magua by way of Ghostlin, and because he's rude - which I tend to associate with town. Yes, Magua I finished reading the thread. Are you rude because you think I'm scum, or is this just your natural play?

Haven't decided what I think about redff and jonh61. Leaning town on jon and not town on red at the moment though.

Vote: Nobody Special

NS is my best candidate for scum though. Other suspicions about him have already been talked about namely his testing the waters to see if anyone would buy the Alice was bussing Jason thing. Two other things stuck out to me though, and that was his overexplanation in 155 for why he was suddenly being helpful in the game and lack of pretty much anything else. One of the last things NS says is that there's no way he and DV can be scum together in post 333, which is just an odd post altogether.

[Tammy]

Oh meant to mention the SK thing. I have no idea. I've only played in one game before with a serial killer and it was advertised as such. Do you guys routinely not know the setup to your games? I've never played in a multi-factional game and that information not given out beforehand. It doesn't make much sense as that kind of information is necessary so that you can adequately judge the players behavior.

I don't know what to make of the different flavors of the killings. Jason dropped a gun when he died right? Did Innocent also drop a gun? I would imagine the last killer would have a gun as well because Kamrun was shot like the other two. How do you all perform night kills here? At my site typically the entire scum faction completes the kill as one. They can also use whatever roles they have and kill simultaneously. However, once in a game I modded I limited the use of roles and kills so that one had to perform the kill alone if the other used their role. Is the night kill submitted as a team here or is it submitted individually? If it's submitted individually, is it possible that not everyone has the same type of killing power?

[Tammy]

Jason dropped a gun when he died right? Did Innocent also drop a gun? I would imagine the last killer would have a gun as well because Kamrun was shot like the other two.

How are you so sure there are 3 "killers"?

I'm not. You started with 18 players though. Three killers in an 18 player game is what I'm accustomed to.

I forgot about the balance discussion earlier in which MoI and Magua talked abou what was typical for this site.

[Tammy]

Magua by way of Ghostlin, and because he's rude - which I tend to associate with town. Yes, Magua I finished reading the thread. Are you rude because you think I'm scum, or is this just your natural play?

That's not rudeness. That's condescension. I'm condescending towards bad play (<--- ok,

that

might be rude). Replacing in and saying, "Guys, don't vote me, I'm not scum" repeatedly is bad play.

Fair enough. It was bad play; I admit. I occasionally have bad mafia days where my play is suboptimal...that was one of them.

Vote: Nobody Special

NS is my best candidate for scum though. Other suspicions about him have already been talked about namely his testing the waters to see if anyone would buy the Alice was bussing Jason thing. Two other things stuck out to me though, and that was his overexplanation in 155 for why he was suddenly being helpful in the game and lack of pretty much anything else. One of the last things NS says is that there's no way he and DV can be scum together in post 333, which is just an odd post altogether.

Why do you say DV is town for saying he was thinking about fakeclaiming, but NS is scum for testing the waters on an Alice lynch? In both cases it's someone openly doing a scummy action.

More specifically, why do you have a townread on Jon_h61 and a scumread on NS when they seem roughly comparable in terms of contribution to the thread?

Second, do you think NS is mafia or the SK? If you think he's mafia, who do you think is the SK?[/quote]

DV admitting that he was thinking about fakeclaiming is a town reaction. Yes, it's a scummy action, but admitting it tends to come from town. I've seen town fakeclaim to save themselves from a lynch and then fess up within hours that they didn't have the role they claimed they had. Scum don't tend to admit these types of things. And I said I have a weak town read on him.

NS isn't only scum for testing the waters on Alice bussing Jason. One, his first post in the thread looks like distancing from Jason where he's suggesting that he'd be willing to vote him. Besides it's not necessarily the testing of the waters that looks scummy it's the language used. Saying "Guys, if I were to say Alice isn't town, how would that be received?" isn't a town type of question. Town tend to test waters in a different way, ask questions a bit differently, and they aren't too concerned with how they're going to be received. Asking "how would that be received" suggests too much concern for what might be an unpopular opinion and not wanting to stand out for it or get too much flack for it, which tend to come from scum. Also, he just doesn't look like he actually believes it.

I'm leaning town on jon but not sure exactly what to do with him. There's a lack of participation that would make him fit the profile of a killer and it's weird that most of his posts are talking about making more contribution. Actually now that I've read him in ISO, I'm trying to figure why I was leaning town. He talks about posts that he makes but never posts. Wasn't he confirmed vanilla through his predecessor? He seems a bit more engaged than NS, which is why I was leaning town for him. Leaning town is a far cry from saying I have a town read though.

I think it's most likely that NS is mafia. Post 97 makes sense for this. Saying that he remembered Jason being scummy and would be willing to vote him but doesn't want to put him at L-1 yet while also floating a possible DV lynch suggests distancing.

As far as who the SK is, I don't know. I'd need to think about it. I'd suppose it was somebody who wasn't necessarily attempting to get the mafia team killed too soon as the SK would need them alive if he had any hopes of surviving to endgame himself. Without having the first three days of the game to look at behavior and wagons, I don't know who would typically fit the profile. So, it's assumed that the SK killed the first night correct? But not the other nights? Why would they be withholding their kills when the longer they drag it out the lesser chance they have to win. The lack of multiple kills is one reason I'm not completely convinced there is a SK. Yes, I know the theory and objectively it does make sense for Snake (me) to be the SK due to a lack of attention to the thread. It's a good theory, but it's incorrect. What player wouldn't make a kill though? It doesn't make sense to me. The only option I can think of is redff. He was jailed night 3 and potentially was night 4, which would make sense for there not being two kills that night. Is there any accounting for his night 2 actions?

I don't know if I buy your potential theory that MoI is the SK. He seems like the type of player that wouldn't hold the kills. The only way I'd see this is if he wasn't actually looking for the killers in earnest. Hmmm...something hasn't felt quite right in his scumhunting so I suppose this could be a possibility, still he seems like the type of player that would submit kills. Need to think this over.

[Tammy]

Oh wait so question about Serial Killers here. Are they typically bulletproof? Where I play they are bulletproof and sometimes have other roles as well - the one I played in had a bulletproof, 2 shot finder, serial killer. If the serial killer is bulletproof here perhaps that's why there is different flavor. If there is a serial killer, how likely is it that the serial killer murdered someone night one, but the mafia team attacked the serial killer who was bulletproof?

[Tammy]

Mechanics question first.

Serial killers tend to be either investigation immune or bulletproof. Given the existence of the FBI Agent, going to guess not investigation immune, so the SK is actually probably bulletproof.

You have to recall that a member of the mafia was jailkept (which means their action failed) N1. I do not believe that the Mafia have shot the SK, because if you have the Mafia up against a bulletproof SK, they know the only way to win is to get that person lynched. At the very least I Am Innocent or Jason would've outted that information as they were being lynched.

And the Mafia have only missed one kill. It's the SK who's missed three.

Will post more in a bit.

All right, still trying to adjust my assumptions for site differences. I didn't even consider one member of the team being blocked stopping the kill. At my site, if there's a three person team, even if two members are blocked the kill still goes through because it's a team action rather than an individual.

When did the SK theory become serious? If they thought the person they hit was healed, that could account for them not thinking that it was a SK. But, it's probably a stupid idea anyway, so never mind.

Actually I've been thinking, and you were right in your earlier assessment, you have to lynch me. I've been able to argue my way out of tough mafia spots and prove my innocence before when it didn't look good, and as fun as that is, I don't think it's possible here. Nor do I think it would be good for town anyway because even if you all listen to me for now I would be too much of a problem later on because of the blank spot. (Now make this twice in just a couple weeks here that I feel like a hypocrite for arguing for something I've previously said shouldn't happen; although I had to strategically mislynch someone last week so I guess in certain instances it's best for town.)

I don't know this site well enough to be able to make sense of what is likely for the set up and balance, nor is math my strong suit, so I don't know how many mislynches you have left before town really starts to be in danger. My guess is that you have at least three, and I have to be one of those three. Sure, I'd love it if I wasn't this one, so I could at least try to help town, but I can see the writing on the wall pretty well and in all likelihood it will be this one.

I'm at L-2 right now, and I don't know if you guys tend to lynch before or wait until deadline, but I'd like for you guys to at least give me a couple of days so that I can go through the thread again and see if I can help before you lynch me. I know you'll still be suspicious of me while I'm here, but at least I can possibly try provide some interaction and information over the next few days that will help you in the next coming days.

This is actually kind of interesting, I've never had more than three votes on me before as an innocent, let alone be lynched as an innocent. I can't imagine any better circumstances for the first time of that happening.

[Tammy]

Magua, Jon is not confirmed Vanilla, but I tracked him at the start of this game, and he didn't visit anyone, which makes me think his predecessor was probably telling the truth about his VT claim.

You tracked him at the start of the game? Day one or day two?

[Tammy]

Trying to figure out how many mislynches are left. The balance I'm used to you have possibly two left. Either 2 mafia or 2 with one mafia and one SK.

So assuming two left, it would look something like this:

10 people:
1. Lynch Tammy (mislynch), hopefully only one night kill

8 people:
2. Lynch ??? (possible mislynch), hopefully only one night kill

6 people:
3. If you mislynch day two after mislynching me, night might be your best option here to get you to odds and lessen the pool. Hopefully there will just be one more night kill.

The next two days you have to get it right.

So, I think I was wrong in my earlier assumption that you had three mislynches left. Unless I'm all kinds of wrong on my math, which is very possible, you have two.

[Tammy]

You tracked him at the start of the game? Day one or day two?

To clarify, I meant the start of this thread. So that would have been N4.

Was he investigated by DY?

[Tammy]

Tammy is our Serial Killer. Anyone who doesn't see that, please, do try to convince me otherwise.

unvote

Vote: Tammy

DY is still scum, though.

And that's L-2, for those playing at home.

Why don't you explain why I am?

[Tammy]

As explained to death prior to this, Snake was away for, like,

ever,

and there's never been more than one kill per night.

Ipso facto, you're it.

Ok, so no real reason except for parroting another person's theory. Good, feel like putting some actual work into the game?

[Tammy]

You tracked him at the start of the game? Day one or day two?

To clarify, I meant the start of this thread. So that would have been N4.

Was he investigated by DY?

Never mind this question. I had a chance to reread the first half of the thread and found where he did investigate. You tracked him N4 and he didn't go anywhere, and there was a kill. So, the only way he's a killer is if there's two left of mafia, and he didn't perform the kill. That would be a hell of a coincidence and if there is a serial killer, I think it's unlikely, so Jon is not very likely to be a killer.

Of the people alive who have been investigated:

NS is not a serial killer
DV is not a serial killer
Jon is not a serial killer

Don't know if I'm missing anything.

[Tammy]

Of the people alive who have been investigated:

NS is not a serial killer
DV is not a serial killer
Jon is not a serial killer

Don't know if I'm missing anything.

That's IF you believe DY's claim, which I don't.

If you don't believe DY's claim, then do you believe there's a serial killer? How do you account for Alice tracking DY when he visited DV and DV not being killed DY is not an FBI agent?

[Tammy]

^^ that should be DV not being killed

if

DY is not an FBI agent?

[Tammy]

Well your vote on me suggests that you absolutely believe that I am a serial killer. If I am a serial killer, according to your beliefs, why is it impossible for there to be an FBI Agent?

There was already a mafia watcher, so DY couldn't be that. Any other alternatives?

If you believe that DY's role is some other power role that is not an FBI Agent, then how likely is it that there is a serial killer in the game? Which would make your vote on me...why again?

[Tammy]

What I find odd is MoI's reaction to his suspicion. When MoI replaced into the Kirby game, and he said who would probably be scum if they remained alive for too many more days with the player list, he said that he would say the same thing about himself. So if he knows he's going to get suspicion when he remains alive for a little while, why does he seem surprised or frustrated by it? (Although he handles it a lot better than I do when it happens to me.)

First I’m going to share some history with you.

I played for over 2 years on another site before coming to MS. There I developed a strong reputation similar to here – I was almost uniformally killed N1 as Town in every game regardless of play / role / whatever simply due to rep. It, as expected, got to the point that any game I survived N1 the calls of “MoI is scum, he’s alive” came raining on Day 2, often from scum. It actually became a viable discussed strategy for scum to avoid killing me just to make that argument to push for my claim.

Suffice it to say that I stopped playing games there shortly afterwards because the investment of my time wasn’t worth it. I wasn’t going to live more than two Days regardless of alignment or play.

I understand your point regarding Kirby Mafia – I specifically made that point regarding Spyrex and PranaDevil because it was true … the playerlist in that game was significantly weaker overall and them living any amount of time was something I didn’t want escaping those who were not experienced.

I’m used to dealing with “MoI is Alive” arguments and “Burden of Proficiency” arguments here. It’s pretty common. What makes me rather peeved is when they are made completely in absence of context and facts of the game. Simply put – I find attacks based simply on the “He’s alive right now” with the playerlist as it stands (and I challenge Darth to explicitly say directly he feels I’m a better player than he is and thus it is reasonable he hasn’t been killed) and the claims that have been made.

I absolutely get this. That kind of thing is the reason my site uses alts for almost every game we play, and most mods employ rather strict alt and meta-rules that can get you modkilled for outing yours or someone else's alt. (Not that I don't out my alt within 5-10 posts to most everyone because of my style, but still.) That being said, that kind of underhanded play is rather looked down on there as it drives people away, which is what we don't want. There are a lot of site cultural differences between the two that take some getting used to though.

The only reason why I thought it was odd was because of what you said during the Kirby game, so I just figured it was something you expected in every game.

[Tammy]

BUT--it worries me that the red wagon has essentially disintegrated when between him and MOI, we are very likely to have AT LEAST one scum.

So I'll vote Tammy at deadline to avoid a no lynch (can someone please explain the wagon on her to me? She's spewed all over this thread, but I'm having a hard time distilling this scumminess seen in her down to an actual case. Not saying she isn't scummy (like I am w/ NS), but that I just am not seeing it right now. I kinda get why Magua thinks she's the SK, but as for everyone else...??? So, help, please) but I continue to maintain that Ghostlin's original proposal of MOI or red is still optimal.

@Tammy: I listed my investigation targets some time ago--ISO me to find 'em. Fitz, NS, Thor/Jon, and DV. All not serial killers.

Thanks. I found most of it when I reread the first part of the thread yesterday. I think the only one I was missing was HF.

Do you remember what the reasons for Ghostlin proposing MoI were? If they're in this thread, I'll find it as I'm making my way through the thread again, but I don't remember it from my first read.

What you are reasons for suspecting MoI that are independent of his still being alive?

[Tammy]

In the neighborhood, Magna is putting up resistance to the idea of me wanting him investigated by Yoshi. I'm not sure why, and it sorts of bugs me, but we're arguing it out.

What kind of resistance is he putting up? Is he giving a reason he shouldn't be investigated?

[Tammy]

BUT--it worries me that the red wagon has essentially disintegrated when between him and MOI, we are very likely to have AT LEAST one scum.

So I'll vote Tammy at deadline to avoid a no lynch (can someone please explain the wagon on her to me? She's spewed all over this thread, but I'm having a hard time distilling this scumminess seen in her down to an actual case. Not saying she isn't scummy (like I am w/ NS), but that I just am not seeing it right now. I kinda get why Magua thinks she's the SK, but as for everyone else...??? So, help, please) but I continue to maintain that Ghostlin's original proposal of MOI or red is still optimal.

@Tammy: I listed my investigation targets some time ago--ISO me to find 'em. Fitz, NS, Thor/Jon, and DV. All not serial killers.

Thanks. I found most of it when I reread the first part of the thread yesterday. I think the only one I was missing was HF.

Do you remember what the reasons for Ghostlin proposing MoI were? If they're in this thread, I'll find it as I'm making my way through the thread again, but I don't remember it from my first read.

What you are reasons for suspecting MoI that are independent of his still being alive?

Ghostlin basically suggested that three protective roles (one confirmed JK, a claimed two-shot doc, and a claimed bodyguard) are highly unlikely in a 18-player setup, and that either MOI or red was likely fakeclaiming. You can ISO him to find what he said verbatim.

I've basically suspected MOI all game. His D1 play was lurkertastic and felt much more like scum trying to pretend to scumhunt than actually being useful.

OK so it is in this incarnation of the thread. I haven't had a chance to reread the last half, but I'll ISO it if it doesn't stick out. As far as the roles, I agree. It would be rather odd to have that many roles on team innocent.

I agree with your assessment of the scumhunting. I noted in my read that something didn't feel right. I need to finish rereading the thread, which I'll be able to do tomorrow, and ISO to see if my first impressions hold up, but what it seemed to me was a type of scumhunting that didn't feel quite earnest. One that focused too much on objectively verifiable information, which is a safe place for scum to hunt, and can't be contradicted due to textual proof but at the same time isn't necessarily indicative of scum. (I don't know if that made sense, but I know what I mean.)

Ok.

No. We're not lynching redFF. I'm 95% sure that in the pool of (redFF, MagnaofIllusion), and I'm 85% sure that the scum in that pool is redFF. But, killing redFF means Alice dies tonight. Letting redFF live means Alice lives, *or* redFF gets lynched.

So...you're pretty damn sure that red is scum and you DON'T want to lynch him because that means we lose a PR? Shouldn't the town almost ALWAYS be willing to trade a PR for a scum?

I've got a better idea: we lynch red today and I investigate MOI tonight, then you get to know if both players are SK as opposed to just one.
[/quote] [/quote]

I agree and disagree with this.

^^^^^8.5 on the wishy-washy scale.

In the sense of being willing to lose a power role in the case of lynching scum, I absolutely agree with you. However, I see Magua's stance in that Alice is his strongest town read and that is an important thing to keep. If he ends up having to choose in a possible endgame scenario, it's always better to have a known variable rather than two unknowns. Also having around someone's opinion whom you trust is pretty important, so I can see why he would consider it more important to keep her around than to lynch someone right now that might be scum.

[Tammy]

Who would your best guess for SK be?

[Tammy]

Who would your best guess for SK be?

you

Care to give a reason that doesn't include the already tired "Snake wasn't on the thread" argument? Because, seriously, once you lynch me, you're going to have to come up with a different plan. Might as well start thinking about alternatives now.

[Tammy]

Um...help. Am I doing something wrong. I'm pretty technologically incapable anyway, but the cached pages don't have avatars or names on the left. Is that normal?

[Tammy]

Magua - Awesome. Slow reader becomes slower.

redFF - Didn't say you were. My lynching is a foregone conclusion, and you're going to have to reevaluate once that happens. Just encouraging you to start doing it now.

[Tammy]

In the neighborhood, Magna is putting up resistance to the idea of me wanting him investigated by Yoshi. I'm not sure why, and it sorts of bugs me, but we're arguing it out.

Let’s be fair – I’m not ‘resisting’ the idea of being investigated. I’m questioning your assumptions in logic.

Then there shouldn't be an issue. Is there someone you think should be investigated instead?

There was already a mafia watcher, so DY couldn't be that. Any other alternatives?

We’ve been over this already. Roleblocker / Rolecop / Modified Framer are all possibilities.[/quote]

Thanks. I wasn't asking the question because I actually needed the answer though. I was trying to determine his thought process.

[Tammy]

Magua: If you think MoI should be investigated, why aren't you voting him instead? Is Jon really scummier than MoI? After all, MoI is still alive, and we know what that means.

Why are there no votes on MoI? Let's rectify that.

Vote: MagnaofIllusion

I don't know? What do you think? Is Jon scummier? Do you have any reason to believe that MoI is scum that is independent of his still being alive? What exactly does his being alive have to do with anything?

[Tammy]

MOI's vote of me is incredibly anti-town. At the time of his vote, he moved from the leading wagon (Tammy) to a person with only ONE other vote (me) when the deadline was

only three days away

. It looks like an effort to divide the town than any genuine attempt to catch scum.

In any case, the unofficial tally means that there are only two votes left on Tammy--Magua's and Alice's, and the leading wagon (NS) has only three votes on it. Deadline is in a little over 48 hours from this post.

I really need to figure out a way to get adjusted to site differences. Is three days away really cutting it too close to deadline to shift wagons?

[Tammy]

MOI's vote of me is incredibly anti-town. At the time of his vote, he moved from the leading wagon (Tammy) to a person with only ONE other vote (me) when the deadline was only three days away. It looks like an effort to divide the town than any genuine attempt to catch scum.

Oh so you mean the vote move to one of my Top scum suspects. Made right after Magua did the same thing - voting for a top suspect after Tammy's Serial Killer status was cleared up by the Mod.

But one peep here about Magua making an Anti-Town vote? Nope, not a peep. Cognitive Dissonance in full effect!

Why are you concerned about pointing it out that someone else moved their vote too, but didn't get called out?

[Tammy]

UNVOTE:

I just realized that it doesn't make sense for MOI to be SK.

VOTE: DeasVail

I'm derping all over the place. PLEASE JOIN ME GUYS. I'll come back and explain if people have questions, but I have to go for now.

Uh yeah, can you explain? I'm making my way through the cached files and as long as I'm interpreting who's who correctly, you've suspected him for some time. (Or maybe that was muffin.)

Did you vote MoI in the first place because you thought he was the serial killer? If that's the case, can you explain your vote on DV? DY stated that he wasn't the serial killer, so are you now doubting DY? Or are you saying that DV is mafia?

DY still seems town to me...long catch up posts which would normally earn you an insta-wagon aside...*going to get used to site differences someday*

Still not impressed with MoI. *this could be because I'm not seeing many original posts but am seeing MoI through the eyes of muffin* Either way...surprised he hasn't been lynched yet.

Still have a town read on Alice, haven't seen Ghostlin - but don't see my read of Magua changing so it doesn't matter. HF still seems good, but shaky. Not very impressed with Thor who was Jon, so I could change my vote to him at deadline if need be.

[Tammy]

Alice: How do you explain that you've come this far and not found any scum? Could it be that you're scum?

I just don't know what to do any more.

unvote

Vote: Alice

*snap* Focus *snap*

[Tammy]

Who do you want to vote for?

[Tammy]

I'm feeling less good about voting for NS after his recent posts. I'm beginning to think that what I thought was a tone that was too afraid to go against public opinion because he was scum, might be personality based and therefore not alignment indicative.

There's something about Jon's placating tone that sets me a little on edge too.

unvote: NS
vote: Jon

[Tammy]

^Yes I know this is

close

to deadline. I'll be around and will change it if necessary.

[Tammy]

Jason's read list on page 17 of cache...(yes, I'm a slow reader and busy)

His only known partner to date is I am Innocent, which he basically places in his null reads by not naming him. His scum reads include Camn - town, and Scooby (town?). Only unknowns from scum list are DV, MoI and Alice. Thor calls Jason town a lot from what I'm noticing. This is making me doubt Jon/Thor's scum read, especially considering that Jason has Thor in his town read. However, I haven't gotten a great feeling from Thor over all. It just seems a little odd to me that partners might spend their time calling each other town. That is unless they decided to split their reads - put one in null, one in town and one in scum - but I don't know if many partners actually plan something like that out.

Scum

Camn - wishy washy play, no real substance to posts
DV - already known
Scooby - Do something... seems lurker scum
MOI - agree with the case made on him
Alice - lowest of scum reads

Town
Fitz
Yoshi
Dry-fit
Palis
Thor
Muffin

everyone else - still null/not getting a proper read.

[Tammy]

IAI's reads on that same page - calls NS town. My current scumreads in order are Alice, Jason, Palisades. DryFit and DV have also pinged my scumdar as well.

[Tammy]

^Those are IaI's reads...not me saying who my scumreads are btw...in case that looks weird.

[Tammy]

Just coming in contact with NS in the cache...seems much more engaged and sure of who he wants to vote and why then. Why the change to wanting people to tell him what to do?

[Tammy]

Am I missing something MoI? You've been saying that DY was dropping tells that he knew the size of the scum team, but what I'm seeing is him dropping hints that there is more than one scum team, which would be consistent with his claim of FBI agent, no?

[Tammy]

Does Mastin ever have a correct read?

[Tammy]

^OK well if Jon turns out to be scum...he got that right.

[Tammy]

Current vote count for anyone who's wondering...

Jon_h61 - 4 (Magua, Tammy, DeasVail, MagnaofIllusion)
Nobody Special - 1 (redFF,)
DeasVail - 5 (Alicewondering, Jon_h61, havingfitz, Nobody Special, DarthYoshi)

[Tammy]

Yes.

unvote

Vote: DeasVail

You confuse me. Weren't you just 5 minutes ago voting Alice because you believed she was scum, and now you're voting with her?

I mean vote for whoever you want and all, but it seems strange.

[Tammy]

What the hell does EBWODP mean?

[Tammy]

DY - You and NS have made a thing about MoI still being alive. I'm seeing a considerable amount of suspicion of him so far in the cached pages. Did you take into account that suspicion when wondering why he's still alive?

[Tammy]

E

dit

B

y

W

ay

O

f

D

ouble

P

ost.

Thank you.

[Tammy]

DY - You and NS have made a thing about MoI still being alive. I'm seeing a considerable amount of suspicion of him so far in the cached pages. Did you take into account that suspicion when wondering why he's still alive?

No. His being alive almost definitely points to his scumminess. In and of itself.

What has he done in game that points to him being suspicious?

[Tammy]

Day one I think - page 26 - Thor mentioned the possibility of an SK "If there is an SK who wants *any* credibility for fake claims later - you better be shooting scooby." He responded to DY in this same post.

[Tammy]

I'm just gonna have a little chuckle here. Someone is mentioning about being 5 pages behind in the cache. *sigh* Site differences are site differences. I had a game just start Wednesday afternoon that already has more than 100 posts than this thread. This is mafia dream land.

[Tammy]

Why are you concerned about pointing it out that someone else moved their vote too, but didn't get called out?

I’m concerned with finding and hanging scum. Specifically in this case pointing out yet another example of Darth’s rampant inconsistency which indicates he’s looking to find reasons to point out his ‘suspects’ are scum but not finding non-suspects scum for the exact same reason. His responses with revolve around “You didn’t say you’d move to prevent a no-lynch” further show him stretching. He’s trying to say that I’ve committed to keeping my vote on him as opposed to making sure we don’t know lynch and that’s bullshit.

Ok...this makes sense. I get antsy when people seem like they're deflecting attention, which it looked like you were doing.

Am I missing something MoI? You've been saying that DY was dropping tells that he knew the size of the scum team, but what I'm seeing is him dropping hints that there is more than one scum team, which would be consistent with his claim of FBI agent, no

I’d have to dig in the archive for it (if it is there) but at one point Darth Day 2 said, in response to me, “You calling out all four scum members” (well along these lines, not a direct quote obviously). He specifically called out a number of scum. As you can see with his further posts on the subject of set-up today – he somehow wasn’t considering a 3-1 Mafia / Serial Killer when he said that. No reason for a FBI Agent to know for certain there are 4 scum members to the Mafia team unless he’s a member of said team. [/quote]

I think I'm still in day one of the cache.

[Tammy]

Real townies do not speculate about what would happen if they were on the scumteam.

I do. Probably every time I'm town.

[Tammy]

Wow...um...just read the case on Thor by Mastin? day one. I'm kind of impressed by it's size. I now understand what people have told me in the past...no one reads all that crap. Tired, but in agreement Thor/Jon doesn't look good.

[Tammy]

^ Doesn't actually matter too much if you ask me. We're at evens. If we don't lynch all it does is put us to odds tomorrow if there's only one night kill. I mean sure it's always preferable to have a lynch for information but it's not a disaster at this point if it doesn't happen. I don't think a no lynch situation will happen though.

Reading the cache...MoI wanted a Jason vote on day one even though he claimed? That probably shouldn't make me feel better about him, but it does.

[Tammy]

So, for those of you who know zmuffin...how spot on are they (he/she)? The second case I've seen on day one is against Thor(Jon), which is quite extensive. I'm all meh about Mastin, but don't know zmuffin at all. Why were the Thor suspicions dropped after day one?

[Tammy]

^It might not have been zmuffin who made the second case...the cache files are a bit confusing. It's on page 29.

[Tammy]

Alice: How do you explain that you've come this far and not found any scum? Could it be that you're scum?

I just don't know what to do any more.

How is it that you've neither found scum nor been NKed? And that's false. I have been a proponent of a Jason lynch since D1, and particularly D2. I have also proposed IAI scum.

This is you on page 34, which I believe is day two "I think a Jason lynch today would be bad. He may be a PR, or he may be scum. I wouldn't risk mislynching a potential PR when there are other scummy players in the game. If Jason continues to survive, that could be some sort of indication, but I don't think it would be a good idea to lynch him now. I stand by my D1 decision not to vote him yet. "

[Tammy]

PEdit: Tammy, I don't really know. I did have a townread on Thor if it's any use to you though.

Why? I'm just not seeing town Thor/Jon

[Tammy]

I'm on page 41 of the cache...gonna try to finish reading *slow effing reader here*

Basically the town reads I have are gone. *Be more trustworthy people*

Alice, I still have a basically town read on. Magua, have to have a town read on, I don't even know who the hell his predecessor is in the cache, so gonna have to go with now.

I'm uncomfortable with DV, but I don't think scum uncomfortable, I just still think he's jumpy, gonna go town.

Thor/Jon - No, don't have a good impression of him. Nor do I have a good impression of NS. My problem is that NS seems a lot more focused and engaged in the earlier part of the game and just is gone now. Do not like at all. Especially hate the MoI's alive so is scum argument. *this could be a personal frustration - I'd almost lynch someone just for making this argument because I hate it so much so not very objective here*

My town read of HF is gone. Don't have a scum read as of yet nor can I explain it, but I don't think he's innocent. <--- is that middle roading or being wishy-washy...not sure.

Hate DY's catch up posts, but trying to accept site differences, so they might not be scum posts.

Redff - Is he still in the game. Why can't we lynch him again? Oh I remember...blech.

[Tammy]

^ I realize I just contradicted myself there. I said that DY's assertion that MoI was still alive sounded like town paranoia, and I do believe that. NS sounds like a fabrication, which is frustrating. (But, could also be because I just helped lynch someone because he suggested we prophylactically lynch someone who's a good player but hadn't done anything suspicious in a game, just to be safe.)

[Tammy]

Welcome to the game CES.

Why the Tammy vote if you haven't read the thread?

Because he's CES...it's what he does and he's consistent.

[Tammy]

Can you guys please not hammer. You're not seriously planning to end the day like 10 minutes into day, right? Speedlynching when the SK has finally reappeared doesn't seem to be the best choice. I know not much has happened, but I won't have a chance to even pay attention to this or make sense of it for another couple hours.

Besides, I'm kind of interested in what CES has to say. I rather look forward to reading one of his famous walls

[Tammy]

Wait the only people not investigated by Yoshi so far are RedFF, Magna and me, right?

[Tammy]

Sk's

moi

, scum is probably CES and hf, maybe NS.

So when you say SK's moi, are you using french for me and calling yourself the SK?

OK not a total idiot, but when I read it at first, that's what I thought you meant and that you were confessing.

[Tammy]

Theory point: SK could have investigation immunity when not killing.

If I've assessed the situation correctly, then I don't mind a quicklynch personally. RedFF's flip would be useful in assessing things and I'll catch up overnight.

Meaning that Yoshi would only get a positive for Serial Killer if the SK killed that night?

Why do you want a quicklynch? In a hurry to get to your next night kill?

[Tammy]

And redFF's flip seems like a prime source of information - the notion that MoI/redFF contains exactly one scum seems plausible to me, potential redFFSK implications on

DY's

alignment and there's a massive difference between redFFSK and redFFmafia in terms of what kind of outlook on the game mafia is likely to have.

Do you mean someone else there or am I misreading?

[Tammy]

All right. I'm caught up and don't have anything to add. I keep coming round in circles.

If he's the SK, he killed Yoshi and mafia took a chance he wouldn't be guarding Alice by targeting her.
If he's not the SK, then he took out Alice and the SK took out Yoshi. The only thing that makes sense is that he's the SK and hoped mafia would target someone else besides Alice.

Blech. If you want to do this soon, I'll hammer later tonight if someone sets him up and gives the ok.

[Tammy]

If Red flips town we lose. If Red was town and knew that would happen, he'd be doing something today besides saying he'd give reads in a sec and not doing anything else. But town Red wouldn't have a reason not to protect Alice.

[Tammy]

A cross kill, or a dual-targeted kill would be the only way we could win this if Red's town by some chance. If there are two town kills tonight, we're down to four tomorrow. Say we hit the serial killer tomorrow, there's still one kill tomorrow night and that leaves two people on the final day. Town loses.

But, yeah, I really don't see a way that Red's town. I'll be pretty shocked too if he's not the serial killer.

[Tammy]

And redFF's flip seems like a prime source of information - the notion that MoI/redFF contains exactly one scum seems plausible to me, potential redFFSK implications on

DY's

alignment and there's a massive difference between redFFSK and redFFmafia in terms of what kind of outlook on the game mafia is likely to have.

Do you mean someone else there or am I misreading?

Nope! DY might be dead now but the SKflip->DYtown implication can still have influenced people's stances in the past.

Oh OK this makes sense *really slow sometimes*. Do you have any first impressions?

[Tammy]

Can I hammer?

[Tammy]

vote: CES

For OMGUS purposes...

Kidding.

unvote
vote:RedFF

[Tammy]

Yeah, I already pointed out in the neighborhood that if there's only one killer remaining you can absolutely not be it. I'm still inclined to believe you're not it even if there's two because of it - think it would be a hell of a coincidence that you didn't perform the kill on the night when you were tracked - but I have a tendency to clear killers for stupid reasons like this, so it's not 100%.

If you really want to read me as scum though, there's only two I could link you to *Yes, I draw scum just as often in forums as I do in chat - not very.* The most recent one is at the other site. It's in the same place that we played the WoT game and you played the mini. It's on page three - Game 87.5. It was an altless game so I'm easy to find.

[Tammy]

^Oh, both games are at the other site; I don't have any scum meta here. The other one is alted though and as the alts have changed, I don't know who I am now, and if you really want to read how I played scum in the very first game I ever played, I'll try to figure it out. It ends with Faraday getting me lynched after investigating me though

[Tammy]

It was Magua, Magna and I. It's just Magna and I now. Magua didn't say much recently, and they mostly fit the things he said in twilight, except that he decided it was quite likely that havingfitz was mafia based on the fact that fitz seemed so certain that there was an SK and that it was redFF.

I'll give more in a bit. I'm going to try to go back to sleep.

[Tammy]

I would agree...though I'm the only one considering you confirmed town so your potential NK is apparently no sure thing. In fact...what looks worse? You still being here tomorrow or the Almighty MOI (now that all the PRs are gone)?

This rubs me the wrong way. Can you point to who was actually suspecting Magua? As I recall, we all had him as a strong town read. I also don't like that you seem to be setting up suspicion for MoI being alive if he is (ie parroting the paranoia already voiced by DY and NS).

[Tammy]

You won't. You're scum of some flavor. I just know it.

See it's posts like this that have me doubting my earlier scum read of NS.

[Tammy]

Did Magua have anything interesting to say in the neighborhood? (It's just Magua in there, right?)

This is setting off my alarm bells. Magna stated in the post a couple before this that he was in the QT and Magua had stated earlier that he was having a bit of a debate about the SK investigation with Magna in the neighborhood, so it was known that it wasn't just Magua in the neighborhood.

I've had a generally positive feeling about you since you entered the game, but things like this that seem like they could be feigned ignorance tend to put me on edge.

[Tammy]

CES - How many mafia do you think are left?

[Tammy]

NS - What do you think about havingfitz? I don't think you've ever mentioned him. (At least not since the crash)

[Tammy]

CES - I'm not a maths person, so I don't know the practical applications of Bayes' Theorem or whatever, but one of the reasons brought forth for why there was no mafia nightkill night one was because IaI was jailkept and that maybe he happened to be the one who was supposed to have performed the night kill that failed.

If we're going to accept that probability for why there was no night kill on night one, what is keeping us from accepting the probability that you were tracked on night four but just did not perform the kill for that night?

[Tammy]

Magua didn't say much recently, and they mostly fit the things he said in twilight, except that he decided it was quite likely that havingfitz was mafia based on the fact that fitz seemed so certain that there was an SK and that it was redFF.

I agree with this by the bye. There's a pattern of havingfitz appearing to be more clued in to things than he should.

I need to re-read him with this in mind.

[Tammy]

I've had a generally positive feeling about you since you entered the game, but things like this that seem like they could be feigned ignorance tend to put me on edge.

I do have some pride for the record. I tend to fake a somewhat more insightful and observant townie ignorance than that.

I believe this.

CES - How many mafia do you think are left?

2. 90%+ sure of that too.[/quote]

Damn.

CES - I'm not a maths person, so I don't know the practical applications of Bayes' Theorem or whatever, but one of the reasons brought forth for why there was no mafia nightkill night one was because IaI was jailkept and that maybe he happened to be the one who was supposed to have performed the night kill that failed.

If we're going to accept that probability for why there was no night kill on night one, what is keeping us from accepting the probability that you were tracked on night four but just did not perform the kill for that night?

It's certainly a possibility - which is why it's evidence in favour of innocence and not proof of my innocence. If we assume a prior probability of me being scum of 50% (2 scum out of 4) and a probability of me making the nightkill in that situation of 50% (1 out of 2 scum), then Bayes' Theorem tells us that the tracker innocence should downgrade that probability to 33%.[/quote]

*head splits open*

[Tammy]

Damn.

You were asking because you hoped 1 left was a possibility?

Yep, I'm still holding out hope. There's been balance discussions here and in the neighborhood, but no real conclusion for whether it's 3 or 4 mafia. If there was a possibility of just one left, then the question of you would be a lot easier to answer.

[Tammy]

I just realized that Alice's track of CES was on night three, before Jason was lynched, not on night four like I previously thought.

[Tammy]

See it's posts like this that have me doubting my earlier scum read of NS.

Please elaborate on your reasons here (regarding Post 662 originally, BTW).

Don't think it needs much elaboration. It felt like a town post; doesn't get rid of my suspicions - it just didn't feel like a scum post.

[Tammy]

What was IaI's original claim? On page 68 of pre-crash, I'm seeing MoI respond to IaI in which he states "I thought my protection on Thor was the reason for only 1 NK, and did not want to leave a trail that I was the one protecting him."

I wouldn't normally expect scum to claim to have protected their partner, especially when fake claiming.

[Tammy]

Oh OK and I'm also seeing on page 68, MoI bringing up the ninja thing with regards to Snake (me). I was beginning to think he was bringing it up right now for confusion purposes.

[Tammy]

Question for you people who understand setup and balance better than I do, would the presence of an SK suggest that the mafia would receive a healing role?

[Tammy]

Not really. Not out of the question, but also not sufficiently plausible for me to think the fact that MoI claimed particularly notable in that regard.

OK so not particularly likely that mafia would have a healing role to balance for the SK. Then do you believe MoI's claim? If you do, why bother questioning him over his night one heal choice, if you think it's unlikely that mafia would have a healer? Because if he's a healer and more likely innocent, what does it matter who he healed?

What was IaI's original claim?

He claimed VT, then got busted and claimed weak doc, iirc.

So, he basically claimed the same thing that MoI claimed, though I don't know the particulars of the claim. Seems rather uninspired and silly to fake claim weak doc if he and MoI were partners and that was MoI's role, making them less likely to be partnered.

[Tammy]

CES - What would you make of the lack of the SK kill on night two then? It's been largely assumed that he tried to kill Alice, but it failed due to MoI's heal on her night two.

I just searched through the neighborhood and found that Kamrun jailkept IaI both night one and night two. We know he jailkept redFF on night three, and most likely did on night four too. The thing that throws me off is that for three nights in a row, mafia took a chance to kill the person redFF was supposed to be protecting. I suppose they could just figure it didn't matter and they'd take out either the first time.

The lack of night two SK kill makes MoI's claim of healing Alice pretty likely.

[Tammy]

Ok so I just realized I might be confused about something. What is a ninja at this site? I'm guessing by Magna's discussions that a ninja is something totally different here than at my site.

[Tammy]

Oh that's what he meant? I was trying to figure out how watching the movie Daybreak caused the weekend to go crazy. *idiot*

So, the ninja is a scum-aligned role that cannot be tracked or watched. Got it. That makes so much more sense and is definitely nothing like the ninja role I'm used to.

[Tammy]

How did that one slip by me?

Um, it could be explained by the SK failing to send in a kill (iirc that slot used to be Lowell; he's pretty lurky) or attempting to kill IAI or Baseline (although I believe he had Lowell down as townish). It's a shame I can't check whether Lowell posted on site that Night because of the crash and whatnot.

You think he would have attempted to kill IaI? If I recall, IaI looked pretty scummy in the reads; seems an odd kill choice.

[Tammy]

If I get a chance to respond to CES' crap accusation on my trend of being more clued in I will...but suffice to say it's crap.

Saying it's crap and demonstrating why it's crap are two different things.

[Tammy]

Meh, I'm inclined to believe your claim because I think it would be intensely silly for IaI to claim weak doc if he was your partner and then you did too and because of the lack of night two SK kill without a valid explanation for what was up with the SK, but I feel all blech about breadcrumbs being used as evidence for a role. All they do is show that you intended to claim a particular role, not that you definitely have it.


NOBODY SPECIAL - WHERE ARE YOU???

[Tammy]

2) Nice to see you're still dodging the DV protect question, MoI.

Keep repeating the lie about dodging enough and what? People will think you aren't scum trying to fruitlessly

undermine the closest to confirmed Town?

Yup, you are boring CES.

I haven't felt undermined

[Tammy]

And Tammy...I know demonstrating his case is crap is more important than saying it is. I can/will elaborate when I get back home. In the meantime if you (or anyone else not CES) think there is a pattern of events showing I'm "clued into things" I'd like to know it. I hardly think thinking redFF was the SK or Jason was the watcher constitutes inside knowledge. More like in your face facts combined with common sense.

If you knew what CES meant by seeming like you were more clued in to things, why did you ask him to elaborate on what he meant? Why not just explain how you came to those determinations?

[Tammy]

Meh, you're all boring.

But,

Mirror, mirror on the wall, who is the most boring one of all?

Nobody Special!

[Tammy]

Meh, you're all boring.

But,

Mirror, mirror on the wall, who is the most boring one of all?

Nobody Special!

Oh, I am

far

from boring.

1) Hi Fitz, you're scums.
2) Nice to see you're still dodging the DV protect question, MoI.
3) MoI, is there any evidence of you breadcrumbing in what remains of the thread? (Alternatively, NS, do you remember if he said something to that effect?)

1) I agree.
3) No, I don't recall.


I swear, this game. I'm not putting fitz at L-1 yet, but I want him lynched.

But I also want MoI lynched.

What to do, what to do.

Talk to me NS. Why Fitz? Why MoI?

Mod Note: Quote tag fixed.

[Tammy]

@Mod - can you fix my quote tags in 741? Thank you!

[Tammy]

NS - Why don't you want to put Fitz at L-1? If you think he's scum and you want him lynched, what's the big deal?

If you think he's scum, who's his partner (assuming there's two anyway)?

If you put him at L-1, the only people yet to vote are Fitz, MoI, and me. Fitz isn't going to vote for himself. If you believe that MoI is scum too, do you think he's going to vote for his partner? Do you think I'm going to just hammer and if I do what does it matter since you want him lynched anyway?

[Tammy]

@MOI...kiss my arse. You find scum your way and I will find scum mine.

See … I don’t think you are ‘finding scum’. I think you are scum. So, no, I’m not going to ignore your illogical and scummy posting. Had Jason not committed to being scum with his end of Day 3 posting I would be pushing hard on you right now.

What happened to this? Did you forget you thought fitz was scum on the day you all lynched Jason? Why didn't you pick this back up on day 4 if you thought he was scum?

[Tammy]

3) DV is far less likely to be scum? You thought you made that clear? Unfortunately we don't all value your opinion as much as you do. Too funny.

No what’s funny is your contrortions and attempts to keep DV as a viable suspect after yesterday. Odds he’s Mafia with Jason are slim. Do you think he is a Serial Killer? Yes or no?

Yet you keep him tucked on your ‘suspect list’. He’s that mislynch you, as scum, know you probably can get because his play is sub-par or he's a Serial Killer that you still know is out there and are hunting for "cred".

Both possibilities point to Mafia scum Having.

But, you're voting Darth Yoshi in this post. Did you think they were partners? What are your thoughts about Having now?

[Tammy]

I do have a spreadsheet with all the voting history from the start of the game if that would help anyone.

I missed this before. You have a spreadsheet with the voting history? You haven't made that available? I'd love to take a look.

[Tammy]

I assume there is an SK. Iirc I assumed there was an SK even before DarthYoshi claimed FBI investigator but I can't recall why I assumed it. I know I was leaning town on DY before he claimed so therefore I am inclined to believe his claim. IMO his claim supports the existence of an SK, though the continued lack of a 2nd NK 3 nights in a row is causing me to rethink my SK assumption a bit. Verdict...I think DY is town but he could be scum. If he is scum, I think he is the sk.

Umm hai! You wonder why someone says you seem like you're clued into information you shouldn't be? Yeah, assuming there's an SK before the FBI Investigator even bothers to claim might be a starting point. I realize that you say you can't recall why you assumed it...TRY.

Also, you think someone is town but they could be scum...wtf??? (It doesn't really matter DY was town, but damn.)

[Tammy]

Alice...I do not recall IAI's push towards you or his case. Or Kamrun's for that matter. I lean towards believing your claim over jason's but the fact IAI and/or Kamrun suspected you on D1 means nothing. You know it could be bussing so to use it as a positivie in your favor is silly. Kamrun had a vote on you for all of 30 posts (73-103) while IAI had a D1 vote on you from 204-405. And the vast majority of IAI's vote on you had you at 2 votes. Hardly a precarious situation for a scum buddy. And neither of them had a vote on you D2 or D3. So what is your point again?

Did you honestly believe that IaI and Alice were partners at this point? What's bugging me is not long after this NS starts the "Alice and Jason might be partners thing." You, um, seem to have a pretty good recollection of IaI's votes on people. Odd.

[Tammy]

Snake's absence has reached the point where I can not keep ignoring him.

He is still at least 3 deep on my suspect list so I hope it doesn't come to lynching a lurker but still...what play he has contributed in hindsight has not been very pro-town.

So my top suspects ATT are:
redFF
DV
NS-Snake
DY (obv this drops to the bottom if an sk is killed/lynched or there is a 2nd NK)
MOI-jon (re: jon, no real pro-town reasons...more of an absence of anti-town play, newness, POE)

and the rest are cleared IMO.

Marking part of this because it's bothering me for a reason I'm not sure of right now.

So, are your suspects still in this basic order: NS - Tammy - MoI - CES? Not really sure because of all the DV focus in your ISO.

[Tammy]

Why are people pushing a MOI lynch over our other options? If the reason is that he is still alive, I would disagree for two reasons: 1) His ego does not need any more fueling and more importantly 2) all the NK's up to this point have been PRs of greater interest than MOI.

MOI...who did you use your protects on again?

DY...who have you not investigated yet? Who is still a possibility for a potential SK (redredredredredredredredFF)?

I will support these lynches: redFF, DV, NS.

Why shouldn't they have pushed an MoI lynch? Noted that you seem to be protecting him at this point.

Why are you bringing up MoI's protects at this stage? Did you feel it was really important at this moment to remind people that he had claimed limited DOC?

UM you do realize in post 422 I put a list of who had been investigated so far right? Why did you feel the need to ask? Um wait oh hai in post 432 you lay out a whole list of facts about the possible SK and why it should be red. So, why did you need to ask DY who he had investigated yet?

So, redFF and DV have been lynched. Does that mean you want an NS lynch today then?

[Tammy]

My apologies; after telling Zach that I'd stay in the game to avoid having to find a replacement, I completely forgot about it until being prodded. But I'm here now.

My memory of jason is very scummy. My memory of DV is pretty much null.

I'm totally on board with lynching jason today, and going from there. I don't, however, want to put him at L-1 just yet.

jason: Can you reiterate, please, why you're wiling to sacrifice yourself to save a potential town power role?

Why didn't you want to put Jason at L-1? You've just said a similar thing about Having Fitz and not wanting to put him at L-1. What's up with that?

[Tammy]

Note to self: double-iso Alice + MoI.

Note to yourself? Did you ever actually do this? With MoI? With Fitz? CES?

Why, all of the sudden, are you so active in this game NS?

If you recall, pre-crash, I had asked for replacement. My reason, though not stated at the time, was that I was overloaded. I was in something like 9 or 10 games. However, two things happened: I moved, thus relieving an

enormous

amount of stress from my domestic/personal life, and then we had the crash, which alleviated me from a handful of games. Given that I'm now in only three games, with the bonus of a peaceful and blissful home life, I decided to stay in this game and not make Zach find a replacement in the current difficult environment. I'm also actively trying to limit myself in number of games in order to improve my play. (On re-reading what I just typed: it's not some elaborate AtE; it's just the new direction my life and mafia career is headed.)[/quote]

Why did you feel the need to go into so much over explanation about your helpfulness?

NS - Can you please focus and tell me what you think of MoI and Fitz? Please and thank you.

[Tammy]

Crap! NS - These are the two questions I had for you regarding the above post...

Why did you feel the need to go into so much over explanation about your helpfulness?

NS - Can you please focus and tell me what you think of MoI and Fitz? Please and thank you.

[Tammy]

If, Tammy, you are indeed scum, I will be very, very upset. You're bleeding towniness right now.

Someone says some version of this to me in almost all the games I play.


You wouldn't need to double iso Alice and MoI I wouldn't think as they're definitely not partners.

About a potential HF/CES partnership: I'm not seeing it. I could see it if we weren't in endgame, but the best chance that scum have of winning this game is getting us to lynch an innocent today if there are two of them. Therefore, I don't see the practicality of pushing to get your partner lynched today so that in endgame you could maybe convince the other two that you'd never do that to your partner. It's just too risky. I suppose it could be fun in a way to see if you could pull it off, but it would be much safer for scum-CES to push getting any of us lynched but his partner.

About a potential MoI/CES partnership: This one is more likely than HF/CES but I still have my doubts. I haven't liked their interaction so far as it's set me on edge. However, there are a couple things that make me think it's doubtful: I don't think that Jon would have replaced out due to being frustrated with Magua if Magna was his partner as I don't think he would have been that easily intimidated in that instance. If he was Magna's partner, MoI would probably agree with Magua that it was a town-tell that he did replace out so as to give himself a better chance at winning. He at least put forth an effort to get Jon lynched instead of DV on day 5. Bussing is one thing, but bussing near endgame when your victory isn't clear is another. Having his partner around at endgame would be too important I think for him to chance it so close. Oh, and there's another thing he disagreed with me about concerning the day 5 lynch and the likelihood of Jon being innocent, but I'd have to look for it. These things make it less likely as far as I'm concerned, but since neither of them are pushing for the other to be lynched today, it can't be ruled out completely and I have a tendency to clear killers for stupid reasons so

[Tammy]

^^^ Unless CES thought that putting down a vote on HF would discourage us from voting for him, but I still see this as too risky to do in endgame.

[Tammy]

I am 0% sure how many scum there are left. The last time I played in a game with a SK, it was 20 players with a SK, a 3 person scum team and a traitor, but that was on a different site. You guys started with 18, so I really don't know, and I don't know what is typical for this site. There was talk in the neighborhood and here about how many there might be left. Kamrun said that they thought there was only 3 on the team because of what IaI said just before being lynched about directing the SK to certain targets and having mafia take out others; they thought it sounded like the mafia team felt like they got shafted in terms of power.

I hope there's only one left, but everyone else seems to think that's impossible so I'm not holding my breath.

[Tammy]

Um do you really have to leave that vote on Fitz? I'm really doubting you right now MoI. You've just stated that you think you think that one of NS or I aren't town and you leave Fitz at L-1?

Are you absolutely convinced he's scum then?

Explain please.

[Tammy]

Well let's see, in the situation that Havingfitz is town, excluding yourself and the obvious NS and I aren't partners because we were here over the weekend. If you are town then you don't know anyone else's alignments. So, NS and I aren't partners, but CES and I could be. CES and NS could be. And you leaving the vote there makes it possible for one of us to hammer.

Well obviously not me because I would have hammered, but you must be pretty convinced that none of NS/CES/ME are partnered if you're town MoI.

[Tammy]

I just think it's a really strange chance that you are taking right now. You say you'll be re-reading everyone this week, but you leave your vote there in a place where there might not be a rest of the week.

[Tammy]

But also noted MoI, that right after I tell you in the neighborhood that I can't rule out a partnership with you and havingfitz and ask if you'd be willing to vote him today, you run in here and vote him.

I was reading your most recent frustrations with me as a town-tell, but now I'm not so sure.

[Tammy]

Okay. Well MoI and NS are not partners, which is another theory I had. NS and CES are not partnered either.

[Tammy]

Really don't think it's CES and Fitz as I still think starting the wagon is dangerous to do as a partner. That leaves:

Fitz and NS
MoI and CES
Fitz and MoI

[Tammy]

UNLESS we just have one left and then it's all up in the air.

[Tammy]

MoI - I'm not going to deal with the quotes because I mess them up every time I do them, but in response to you:

1. I never said for you to reverse your read. I was concerned about the danger in your action of leaving fitz in the situation to be hammered at that moment in the event that he's town. I'm playing hypotheticals because I don't know a damn thing; can't play anything else in a situation where I'm part of the uninformed majority.

2. It's not difficult to process, but the condescension is cute. You make assertions that you think fitz is scum on the day that Jason is lynched. HOWEVER, you don't really go back to that. The next day you voted Yoshi, then became convinced I was the SK, then voted CES. Why did you drop your fitz is scum suspicion? Because if you were convinced, you should have gone after him on day 5 instead of Yoshi, me or Jon/CES.

3. Yes, I read you all in ISO over the weekend. What does it matter that you were LA when I posted the things that made me suspicious of you? Um, yeah I put up my suspicions about your possible partnerships with other people and not me. Do you expect for me to explore with you ways that we could possibly be partners? Cuz, um whut?

4. My uncertainty causes you problems? Um again I say lolwhut? I'm not sure who the scum are in this game and you're irritated by that? I tell you that I have a habit of messing things up in endgame, and it's surprising you that I'm waffling right now? Furthermore, you're irritated that I think you could be scum? I stated when I first came into this game that I was suspicious of you. I stated in the QT; in fact I've been doing nothing but trying to figure you out in the QT. You're just so busy misinterpreting things, either purposefully or otherwise, to actually notice that. You think that I've been trying to convince you of my alignment when it hasn't been anything of the sort. If you'll remember part of my problem with you has been that you backed off your suspicious read of me and I can't figure out why.

I never once stated that your suspicion on Fitz is odd. If you'll notice, I was concerned about your vote on him. This is potentially LyLo or MyLo or whatever the hell, and you left fitz in a position to be hammered. Being concerned about your vote on him is not the same thing as thinking your suspicion of him is odd.

I'm not evading anything. I don't know about fitz. I'm WAFFLING. I had a town read on him when I replaced into the game. Then I read the pre-crash thread and my town read of him dissolved, but to a place where I didn't know exactly what to do with him. Some of his responses seem town to me.

It's a similar situation I'm in with NS. I had a scum read of him when I replaced into the game, but then some of his responses here seemed town. Then I read the pre-crash thread where he looked more engaged, which I stated in the QT, but some of his responses look really town to me.

I've been suspicious of you since I came into the game. I'm trying to depend on Magua's town read of you and the various things that I've noted that I think makes it less likely that you're partnered with Jason and IaI - but as I stated to you I tend to clear killers for really stupid reasons. Some of your reactions to me have been somewhat evasive, which cause me concern. Your frustration with me is a bit of town-tell though. As is your possible misinterpretation of the things I've said and asked in the QT.

The person I have the best impression of right now is CES, which probably means he's scum <------- that's not waffling, that's called self-doubt at end-game.

[Tammy]

Post-post rethinking...disregard my earlier post. If there IS only 1 scum left then it could still be anyone. Most likely CES or MOI but not guaranteed. Could still be Tammy...or NS

trying to stay off the mislynch

. IMO though it's still more likely to be in the CES/MOI combo.

Then you must believe there's only one killer left? How can you be so sure?

[Tammy]

^^^^^ Never mind...do not answer. I didn't read the second sentence. Sorry.

[Tammy]

Thanks Fitz.

So, if I'm reading this correctly, MoI why are you including Fitz's voting for Palisade as part of a reason for him being scum? Yes, I realize that Palisade was town, but it looks like you had your vote parked on Yoshi that day. Yoshi was town too, so what's point? Also, it looks like Jason and IaI were on the Palisade wagon, and I wouldn't expect all or most of the scum team to be on the same wagon. Sure, it's not impossible but it's the type of careless thing you don't expect. Fitz not ever voting for IaI or Jason is a bit odd.

I'm tired. I'll try to make more sense of the spreadsheet tomorrow - or later today actually.

[Tammy]

DAM...MIT

To whoever left me alive,

Time. Has. Come. To. Pay...
(Probably not really because I always mess up in endgame, but ya know...not happy. Oh, hey, but I've never been left alive to the last day before...yeah still not happy.)

Nobody Special

- Did you happen to vote for what the night length should be?

CES's death makes it less likely to me that Nobody Special is the killer. He had every reason to keep CES alive. I stated in one of my last posts that I was suspecting him, and CES stated in one of his last posts that MoI was the last killer. Nobody Special's best chance of winning this was to leave CES alive.

CES's death makes the most sense for MoI as a killer, but I keep getting hung up on Magua's night kill. I guess from a technical standpoint it makes sense for him to night kill Magua as he was pretty much PI'd by all of us and MoI wouldn't be able to hide behind him. BUT Magua also had a town read on MoI, and with so many people suspecting MoI it seems like a dangerous thing to kill someone who had a town read on you. The safer thing I think would have been to night kill CES on the night he killed Magua then try to get NS lynched yesterday. Based on things said here and in the neighborhood, I think that would have been a plausible strategy. <-----BUT, I get tripped up on things like this all the time.

FUCK. (Someone take me back to midgame where it's nice and cozy and I'm somewhat effective.)

[Tammy]

MoI - You get my first question. I asked this to you before in the neighborhood and you went all evadey not really answering it in a way that makes sense, so here again:

MoI - You posted this in the neighborhood on 4/9 "Also - for the record I'm not 100% sold on the existence of a Serial Killer. I think Tammy is probably the best bet for scum (no matter what flavor) so that is where my vote is."

You changed your vote from me to DY on 4/11 after the mod cleared up the issue that made it more likely that I wasn't SK. However, this statement would suggest that you believed I was mafia anyway. Your change of vote from me to DY indicated that it was based on my SK status getting cleared up. If your vote on me wasn't based solely on the belief of me being SK, why would Magua's change of vote and my status of SK being rather unlikely be enough for you to change your vote from me? You had already stated in an earlier post that Snake was your top choice for mafia out of the VT's, so why didn't you keep pushing that?

[Tammy]

@MOI...kiss my arse. You find scum your way and I will find scum mine.

See … I don’t think you are ‘finding scum’. I think you are scum. So, no, I’m not going to ignore your illogical and scummy posting. Had Jason not committed to being scum with his end of Day 3 posting I would be pushing hard on you right now.

What happened to this? Did you forget you thought fitz was scum on the day you all lynched Jason? Why didn't you pick this back up on day 4 if you thought he was scum?

I'm still waiting on an answer to this question as well MoI.

[Tammy]

3) DV is far less likely to be scum? You thought you made that clear? Unfortunately we don't all value your opinion as much as you do. Too funny.

No what’s funny is your contrortions and attempts to keep DV as a viable suspect after yesterday. Odds he’s Mafia with Jason are slim. Do you think he is a Serial Killer? Yes or no?

Yet you keep him tucked on your ‘suspect list’. He’s that mislynch you, as scum, know you probably can get because his play is sub-par or he's a Serial Killer that you still know is out there and are hunting for "cred".

Both possibilities point to Mafia scum Having.

But, you're voting Darth Yoshi in this post. Did you think they were partners? What are your thoughts about Having now?

Still waiting on an answer for this too. Of course you don't need to answer about Fitz, but why were you voting Yoshi while saying that Having was mafia scum? Did you forget the day before you said you'd be pushing Fitz if it weren't for Jason being scum?

[Tammy]

I'm going to respond in fits and bursts starting with the questions about the kills as they've been what I've been mulling over the most lately.

The CES death is probably the easiest to answer. CES dying does not hurt Nobody as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure I follow what you mean about it benefitting him by way of framing anyone else. Granted I'm not the most experienced player, but I've never seen a killer at or near endgame make a kill that wouldn't be beneficial to him in order to frame someone else. I don't know that I'd be able to follow that thought process. From my point of view, I was the best night kill Nobody Special could make. I stated that I was suspicious of both you and Nobody Special and said that CES was the one I felt best about. CES stated just before NS hammered that you were the final scum. I don't see the purpose in not taking the one person who didn't express any suspicions of you and stated that the other person was the final scum. The safest thing for Nobody Special to do would be to leave CES alive.

[Tammy]

CRAP I'm lying. I told you I've only made it to the final five once before. I spent most of the day clearing the final killer for some really brilliantly stupid reasons. Well, the reasons were actually good; they were just flawed. Anyway, the original plan for the killer was to withhold the kill and let me give him the game in the final four. He changed his mind and killed me as a favor...to put me out of my misery he said...and decided to use my death to frame someone else.

That is the only time I've seen someone kill someone who had a strong innocent read on them in order to frame someone at endgame though. I'm used to seeing killers play it far safer.

CRAP. I hate endgame.

[Tammy]

Um postgame we can hash out who went ‘evadey’ in the QT.

The fact that right after fitz got hammered your immediate response was “Lulz, kill me” and basically stating that you didn’t want to discuss anything combined with your day-posts that whole day that I have previously described as “Look at me I’m Town Town Town” doesn’t sit well with me.

This is utter bullshit and you know it. Yes, I told you to night kill me in the QT. You said you were holding the night to dump information into the QT. I asked you if you were trying to decide who to take to endgame then. Because honestly, I can't see any other reason to hold night. I voted for an early end to the night. Why? Because I'm town and didn't need the night to be extended. Your accusation that I was funneling information was so lulzy I don't even know what to say about it.

Did I state I didn't want to discuss anything? Or did I state:

"

I don't really know what to say in here right now as I'm still trying to figure you out.

I don't trust you MoI; I made that clear. ...

Quite frankly I have no problem continuing to work in the QT to figure out who the remaining killer is

, but seeing as how I think there's a really good chance you are it it's tricky. I don't want to tell you what I think of what's transpired over the past couple of days because I don't want it to influence who you kill if you are the last killer."

Did I not then also tell you that if you truly believed I was the last killer that the last thing you should be doing is dumping info into the QT? You know what? I'm no where near as experienced in this game as you are, but even to me it seemed odd that you would be planning to dump info into the QT if you believed I was a killer. Again, the fact that you even planned to do it, tells me that you know I'm not a killer.

*whatever*

Yeah, you've described the posts as "Look at me I'm town town town." I have no idea what you mean? Do you mean me going through the ISO and asking you and everyone else questions about their actions? You know what you're supposed to do to find scum? Are you actually faulting me for trying to find answers? Because if so, well damn you don't have good enough emoticons here, suffice it to say rofl doesn't cover it. If you're talking about our conversation in the QT, well then you're just misinterpreting or reading things however you would like to and not actually paying attention to what I said. Why don't you read it again slowly and you'll see what I actually meant. Guess what, I have no ulterior motives here. Stop looking for them or fabricating them.

Quite frankly, I don't care if my posts don't sit well with you. I play how I play; if you don't like it *shrug* don't care. If you think I'm scum, vote for me. As I said before, I made peace with getting mislynched in this game soon after replacing in.

[Tammy]

Just to leave this here: Had I had a nightkill last night, I would've killed CES.


P-Edit: Tammy, you're looking even more town. I hate this.

You saying you would kill CES is not making things easier for me. (Though I appreciate the honesty.)

If I'd had a nightkill last night I'd have killed you, I think. CES wasn't interacting with me in a way that suggested he suspected me, and he said MoI was the last killer, so I'd have left him alive. Mostly though I'd have left him alive because I wouldn't have passed up an opportunity to fool CES if I thought it was at all possible.

Of course you think I'm looking more town, I mean I am running around going "Look at me I'm Town Town Town" /sarcasm

[Tammy]

MoI - You get my first question. I asked this to you before in the neighborhood and you went all evadey not really answering it in a way that makes sense, so here again:

MoI - You posted this in the neighborhood on 4/9 "Also - for the record I'm not 100% sold on the existence of a Serial Killer. I think Tammy is probably the best bet for scum (no matter what flavor) so that is where my vote is."

You changed your vote from me to DY on 4/11 after the mod cleared up the issue that made it more likely that I wasn't SK. However, this statement would suggest that you believed I was mafia anyway. Your change of vote from me to DY indicated that it was based on my SK status getting cleared up. If your vote on me wasn't based solely on the belief of me being SK, why would Magua's change of vote and my status of SK being rather unlikely be enough for you to change your vote from me? You had already stated in an earlier post that Snake was your top choice for mafia out of the VT's, so why didn't you keep pushing that?

So what questions are you asking here. Let’s see …

1. Let me go restore the QT to my active list and quote my response to you –

The vote and posturing was 100% pressure based. Snake had coasted far too long and I'll be frank ... the time had passed where I could keep giving him a pass and not try to dig into his alignment. Dropping a vote on him and making him my 'top suspect' was my recourse. It actually paid dividends once Magua jumped on-board with his "Snake flake" theory. Your responses and play surrounding the wagon didn't strike me as "Scum caught for the wrong reason" as Magua elaborated on.

At this stage I'm leaning on his gut regarding calling you Town a bit also.

So whether you accept what I am saying is up to you. Trying to say I avoided it not really accuratein the least.

You're doing it again MoI. You were doing it yesterday when I was asking you questions about why you were voting fitz and leaving him in the position you left him. When you answered you declared that I said I found your suspicion of him odd, which I never did. You're twisting words to make yourself look good and make others look bad. Scum do that MoI.

I said that you evaded the question and didn't answer it in a way that makes sense. Which is absolutely true. You saying I said you avoided it is not correct, but you actually are. You're doing the same thing that you were doing to CES. You're not actually answering the question being asked. You're answering A question; you're answering a question that is similar, but you're not answering THE question.

Let's rewind:

On March 31st these were your vanilla town tiers:

Vanilla Town
DeasVail
Jon_h61
NobodySpecial
Havingfitz
Snake

If you'll notice, I'm your biggest VT scum read. You are, at this point in time voting for my slot. On April 6th, you vote Darth Yoshi, for whatever reasons I still don't understand. Sorry, I just can't get where you had a scum read on him, especially after Alice's track. Meh...whatever.

Concerning Darth Yoshi:

Yeah, I can’t possibly think someone else is scum besides you

Odds you are scum are higher than odds of NS IMO and no-one shows any interest in Snake or Having.

Later in same post:

Both possibilities point to Mafia scum Having.

What's really interesting here is that you say that noone shows any interest in Having, but you never really made a case on him. You only voted for him briefly before voting for IaI and then Jason the next day. Sure, you argue with Having and call him scum, but you don't really ever do anything about it.

So, then Magua replaces in and has the theory that I'm the SK, and on April 7th, you go shew ok vote Tammy.

On April 9th, you post this in the QT "Also - for the record I'm not 100% sold on the existence of a Serial Killer. I think Tammy is probably the best bet for scum (no matter what flavor) so that is where my vote is."

This statement demonstrates that you believed me to be mafia. You unequivocally believed me to be scum.

But, on April 11th,

At any rate, Snakeplissken was prodded due to going over the posting time limit and the prod was acknowledged during the night cycle. Had he not responded to the prod, he would have been replaced.

Well unless you are willing to argue that Snake would have responded to a PM prod in the Night and not included a Kill this sort of puts a crimp in the “Snake as Serial Killer” argument.

You unvote me because me as SK becomes less likely. But, your statement just two days prior in the neighborhood was that I was the best bet for scum no matter the flavor. You immediately go back to your Darth Yoshi vote. If you believed that I was scum as you stated two days prior in the neighborhood, why move your vote? Why not push the idea that I'm scum? This makes no sense to me. This was the day DV was lynched. How did this happen? Sure we tried to lynch CES' spot, but if you believed me to be scum, why did I not get lynched? Why did you vote for Jon? It's not like it would have been difficult to get me lynched. Hell, I wasn't even fighting the lynch and said I should be lynched. Jon was just below DV in your VT tiers; why vote him over me?

Nothing you stated here or in the neighborhood suggests that you changed your read on me or that you started feeling better about my slot. In fact, on April 16th, after Magua stated that he was thinking about neighborizing me, you said "Tammy may have throw a lot of words at the game upon replacement but hasn't done enough independant hunting yet for me to give her a replacement Halo. The one positive thing I can say is she was not voting Deas."

That does not tell me that you started feeling better about my slot. That doesn't tell me that you had decided that my responses didn't seem like mafia caught for the wrong reasons. You repeating what Magua said about me when he decided I was town doesn't explain to me why you stopped pushing it. Because while I believe that's where Magua came to a town read on me, I can't get there with you. I also can't get to a "I'm depending on Magua's gut for your town read" either.

So, why weren't you still pushing for me being the mafia you, by all accounts, believed me to be?

This was your answer:

The vote and posturing was 100% pressure based. Snake had coasted far too long and I'll be frank ... the time had passed where I could keep giving him a pass and not try to dig into his alignment.

Dropping a vote on him and making him my 'top suspect' was my recourse. It actually paid dividends once Magua jumped on-board with his "Snake flake" theory. Your responses and play surrounding the wagon didn't strike me as "Scum caught for the wrong reason" as Magua elaborated on.

At this stage I'm leaning on his gut regarding calling you Town a bit also.

Which does not answer the question, which I asked about again in the neighborhood, and you just told me you didn't have a town read on me. But, why weren't you pressuring it?

You say that the vote and posturing was 100% pressure based, but you stated in the neighborhood that you believed I was scum, so it could not be that. When you say 'top suspect' you try to make it look like I wasn't actually a top suspect, but in the neighborhood your statements suggest that I was.

I also want to direct you to something that Having said here concerning Snake:

Snake's absence has reached the point where I can not keep ignoring him.

He is still at least 3 deep on my suspect list so I hope it doesn't come to lynching a lurker but still...what play he has contributed in hindsight has not been very pro-town.

Note the underlined. Sound familiar? Look up to the underlined from your answer in the neighborhood. These types of relational tells set me on edge.

So, again, why did you stop pushing the "Tammy is Scum" theory? The day we lynched redff, no one else was getting lynched, that's true. But, if I was one of your top suspects, why wasn't I a potential for yesterday? Why wasn't I a potential for the day DV got lynched even after it became less likely that I was not SK.

You have not answered in a satisfactory way why you dropped it.

[Tammy]

I really don't think lynching Deas over Jon or NS or fitz among the VT claims is a wise idea.

Since Darth continues to escape attention

UNVOTE: Darth
VOTE: Jon

I'll be checking in the morning before deadline but someone is going to have to do a real sell-job on how Deas can be Mafia to me ... I don't see it.

[Tammy]

^^^ See this is where you vote for Jon. You don't even mention me.

[Tammy]

^^^WHY don't you???

[Tammy]

Just to leave this here: Had I had a nightkill last night, I would've killed CES. I think he's a strong player, and I would want to pit Tamy vs. MoI in endgame, rather than have two evenly matched players against me.

Dammit. The more this settles, the more I get paranoid about you. I feel like if I end up thinking that MoI is definitely guilty and you're actually it, you'll point to this post right here, shrug, and say "I told you exactly what I was doing...it's your fault you didn't pick up on it."

I need a drink.

[Tammy]

DAMMIT!

[Tammy]

Do you know how much I want to vote MoI right now?

Like A LOT.

But, I won't right now because I've had a drink and it's not right.

DAMN. I hate endgame.

[Tammy]

^^^That might not make sense. Me having a drink has nothing to do with it other than my judgment is a little impaired.

[Tammy]

And NS you could still be scum. But I don't think you are. But I really do always mess up at endgame.

[Tammy]

You won't. You're scum of some flavor. I just know it.

If I live we can certainly discuss tomorrow. I know 100% that you will be living to see Dawn since you are either scum or your regular VI self ...

And gosh this could suck, but I remember when you said this. It was part of my theory that you guys could be partners, and you were insulting him for distancing purposes, but that's not true is it? So, you were just being insulting. I mean people have told me that I'm condescending and patronizing at times, because I am, but damn this was rude. *shrug* Doesn't make me feel any better about you.

[Tammy]

I was referring to MoI calling you a VI. I thought it was rude.

[Tammy]

I liked your response though NS, it felt really genuine.

DAMN.

You really are town aren't you?

[Tammy]

Don't apologize I get my reads, wrong or right, from interacting with people so it's always good when someone responds.

[Tammy]

12th vote count of day 5:

Nobody Special - 3 (redFF, Jon_h61, Tammy)
DarthYoshi - 2 (DeasVail, MagnaofIllusion)
redff - 1 (havingfitz)
Jon_h61 - 1 (Magua)
MagnaofIllusion - 1 (DarthYoshi)
DeasVail - 1 (Alicewondering)
Alicewondering - 1 (Nobody Special)

Not Voting: ()

With 10 alive it's 6 to lynch.

So, here's the 12th vote count of day 5. NS has three votes on him.

In the very next post, HF votes:

Lot of single votes need to pick a wagon.

I'd go back to red in a heartbeat. DV would be nice. NS has legs though and is just as nice.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Nobody special

He puts his vote on NS making that the fourth vote. This is after Alice made her case on DV. He could have put his vote on DV, who he clearly wanted, and helped to make that wagon viable but he doesn't. DY voted for NS right after this and I changed my mind and voted for Jon. DY and NS followed right after me.

13th vote count of day 5:

Jon_h61 - 4 (Magua, Tammy, DarthYoshi, Nobody Special)
Nobody Special - 2 (redFF, havingfitz)
DarthYoshi - 2 (DeasVail, MagnaofIllusion)
DeasVail - 2 (Alicewondering, Jon_h61)

Not Voting: ()

With 10 alive it's 6 to lynch.

Day 5 will end no later than Friday, April 13th at 6pm CST

Next vote count. The Fitz switches to DV

OK...deadline today. Thinking out loud....my top suspect [redFF] is still amazingly not getting any attention. Everyone is everywhere with their voting. My top two mafia suspects are NS and DV...and they are tied at 2. A switch of my vote to DV gets him to 3 votes vs the 2v2 and I've preferred DV almost the entire game anyways so great.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: DV

While I think jon's play has been a little lacking...he doesn't come close the amount of suspicion I have towards my top three. i.e. I do not see me voting jon today.

Hmm...I need to think about this.

[Tammy]

If we look at patterns in voting, Havingfitz never once voted for either of his partners - IaI or Jason. He also never voted for MoI. He did vote for NS on day 5 though.

[Tammy]

10th vote count of day 2:

Palisade - 8 (Jon_h61, redFF, havingfitz, Tammy, I Am Innocent, JasonT1981, Nobody Special, Magua)
DarthYoshi - 2 (MagnaofIllusion, DeasVail)
Tammy - 2 (zMuffinMan, Alicewondering)
I Am Innocent - 1 (Baseline)
DeasVail - 1 (DarthYoshi)
Jon_h61 - 1 (Palisade)
RedFF - 1 (Kamrun)

Not voting: ()

I wouldn't expect the entire scum team to be on Palisade on day 2. I wouldn't normally expect 3 of them to be there either, but the entire team, eh

[Tammy]

Putting this here so I can stop looking at Fitz spreadsheet as it hurst my eyes:

Magna:

Day One: Muffin
Day Two: Yoshi, Tammy
Day Three: Fitz, IaI
Day Four: Jason
Day Five: Tammy, NS, Tammy, Yoshi, CES
Day Six : red
Day Seven: Fitz

Nobody Special

Day One: red, CES, Palisade, red, Palisade
Day Two: Jason, Palisade, Yoshi, Palisade
Day Three: Jason
Day Four: Jason
Day Five: Tammy, Yoshi, Tammy, MoI, Alice, CES, DV
Day Six: No Vote
Day Seven: Fitz

[Tammy]

Reading back over fitz and the day you guys lynched Jason, he pushed pretty hard to try to save him and get DV lynched. He also seemed like he was protecting MoI on day 5 when a couple people voted for him.

He quite happily voted for NS though.

[Tammy]

End of day two vote count:

Palisade - 9 (Thor665, havingfitz, SnakePlissken, I Am Innocent, JasonT1981, DarthYoshi, redFF, Nobody Special, DeasVail)
Snakeplissken - 6 (zMuffinMan, Kamrun, Ghostlin, MagnaofIllusion, Palisade, Baseline)
Not Voting - 1 (Alice)

[Tammy]

End of day four vote count:

Day 4:
JasonT1981 - 7 (Alicewondering, MagnaofIllusion, Kamrun, DeasVail, Jon_h61, Nobody Special, Ghostlin)
DeasVail - 4 (JasonT1981, redFF, DarthYoshi, havingfitz)
Not Voting: (Snakeplissken)

[Tammy]

Oh also:

Fitz:

Day One: DV, Palisade
Day Two: Palisade
Day Three: No Vote - I guess
Day Four: redFF, No Vote, DV
Day Five: redFF, NS, DV
Day Six: redFF

Jason:

Day One: IaI, DV, Alice, Unvote, Scooby
Day Two: Palisade, DV, Palisade
Day Three: IaI
Day Four: DV

IaI:

Day One: CES, Alice, Jason, Palisade
Day Two: Tammy, Palisade
Day Three: IaI

[Tammy]

What answer are you waiting on? Seriously. Of course I didn’t ‘forget’ my fitz read. The question is clearly stated in such a way that only one answer comes regardless of my aligment.

So my question to you is – should I not have had more than 1 scum read?

Do you always make a habit of selective reading? I followed up my did you forget this with this question: "Why didn't you pick this back up on day 4 if you thought he was scum?" (I got the day wrong, I meant day 5.)

Jason was lynched Day 4. On Day 5 the day started with Darth (who was a scum read of mine – you may want to discount it based on his later flip but I found his play suspect Day 1 and Day 2 and the Town PR spread indicated he could easily have been faking the FBI Agent as the safest information role-claim) having failed to make his agreed upon scan and another Night of 1 kill only in the books. The fact that fitz was a scum-read doesn’t obligate me to attack him only. Darth was a bigger scum read at the time.

Fine. He was a scum read even though you discounted the track to DV. This doesn't change the fact that the day prior you said to fitz that you would be pushing on fitz just the day before, but never do. Sure you call him scum, but you cannot now expect not to be questioned for this. What it certainly looks like is that you were nominally indicating that you believed fitz was scum but not actually backing it up by pushing it. And from where I'm standing, where I'm trying to figure out who fitz's last partner is, this looks damn suspicious.

Snake returned with yet more play that didn’t given any indication of Town perspective so I voted him as explained above. Soon after Magua replaces in and leads further pressure on the slot. Here are some of the QT posts we made back and forth after that to remind you –

Ok, feel free to think that. I'm not going to argue this with you since you can just read my response to Darth in thread when he floated the same things.

Scum is 1 of - Darth / redFF

Scum is 1 to 2 of - Snake / Having / NS with an outside shot at Jon.

Alice is as Mod confirmed Town as you can get barring some major fuckcluster where we have two Mafia factions yet have only had 1 kill a Night.

You are about 95% Town. Ghostlin's play was solid and Pro-Town and the proven claim means you are likely only scum if we are in 13-5.

So, I don't think you're mafia.

But I'm still like 25% that you're the SK. Which I do think exists.

Still, even if you're the SK, you want to help lynch the Mafia. So let's do that.

I don't see how a 5-man scumteam is balanced in 18 player. Town would lose after 4 mislynches but would have to lynch correctly 5 times to win -- 10v3 is town loses after 4 mislynches and needs 3 correct to win, so it would essentially be 10v3 but *harder*.

4-man scumteam+SK or 3-man scumteam+SK both seem possible and are what I'm looking at.

havingfitz actually fits, from the vote counts, in being a scum-member, but I totally don't get that from reading his posts. Maybe he simply is scum and I don't give him enough credit, treating him too much like a newbie. The other top scumreads tend to have problems because it involves them bussing in situations that already look bad for them -- redFF, DeasVail are both on IaI D3 in a position where it looks pretty much exactly like jason is going to get lynched D4. Really have a hard time seeing redFF in that position; maybe DeasVail could do it.

So Magua I find Town. And he has clearly no interest in pushing having as he had a Town read on the slot. But he didn’t on Darth (as much as he thought the possibility of a Scum FBI Agent was viable). So once I followed his lead to it’s conclusion on your slot I went back to my most viable candidate … Darth.

And Deas ends up taking the rope. Are you suggesting I wasn’t working in a Town fashion in working with my strongest Town read (outside of Alice, who also supported Darth as scum) to lynch Darth (incorrectly, but for valid reasons IMO).

So then Day 6 dawns and clearly redFF is the Serial Killer. Should I have not voted for him that day?

That leads us to yesterday where Having takes the rope.

I’d really like you to summarize why you find my behavior suspect. Also please keep it independent of NS’s behavior.

First, I have no idea what you mean about me keeping it independent of NS's behavior.

I'm not going to debate with you over Darth Yoshi being a bad lynch anyway. I've made mistakes and pushed bad lynches myself. I don't understand where you got the scum read but that's not part of the problem. Although, how you can fault people for being on the wrong side of the Palisade lynch day two when you pushed a Yoshi lynch day five reads a bit disingenuous.

You had a scum read, fine. But, do you not get where I'm telling you it looks suspicious. It looks like you wanted to make sure you had it out there that fitz was a scum read of yours but not actually do anything about it.

You are going to have to point out for me where Magua stated that he believed Darth was scum and was willing to help get him lynched.

In fact, here happens to be his post in which he changes the vote from me to Jon:

Ok. Well, that changes things in regards to how I feel about Tammy.

Also, her actually getting the cached pages and looking through them gives me the warm fuzzies.

We have two days to make this happen. I'll take Nobody Special as a consolation lynch if necessary, but of all the VTs I'd prefer to lynch Jon.

UNVOTE: Tammy
VOTE: Jon_H61

Nobody Special and Jon are pretty much the same in terms of contribution to the thread, but Jon's got a worse place in terms of his positioning on the vote counts.

I am not lynching redFF, DarthYoshi, DeasVail or havingfitz.

redFF needs to protect Alice no matter what happens.
Alice, if whoever we lynch flips Mafia, for the love of Christ track MagnaofIllusion (and don't typo). If we don't lynch Mafia, then whomever. (Since if we don't lynch Mafia, there's likely two, and if they know who's being tracked that person won't kill, etc)
Yoshi should investigate MagnaofIllusion, IMO.

It looks to me like he wasn't interested in lynching EITHER Darth Yoshi or Fitz. So, if you were working with your fellow strong town read, why were you voting Yoshi again? He clearly states he's not interested in lynching him. You voted for Yoshi in the very next post after this one I just posted. So, your reasoning for why you go to Yoshi is flawed.

You'll have to do better than that.

I'd like to know why you would defer to Magua anyway for who you want to lynch on day 5. You've been in the game from the start. Are you telling me that a replacement, no matter how strong the player, who doesn't have as much information you do about the game, is enough to deter you from lynching someone you claimed the previous day was scum that you would be pushing hard on if another person hadn't claimed scum? You obviously didn't defer to him for Yoshi, so why is fitz the exception?

Are you honestly telling me that if you had a strong scum read on someone, you decided to drop it because Magua replaced in and you thought he was town and Magua thought fitz was town? Especially when he said it wasn't a super strong town read? I mean you did say that you believed fitz and I were the two best bets for mafia, but you don't really push it.

Of course day 6 there was no other lynch besides redff. I never suggested that he was. I'm wondering why on day 5, fitz was not an option.

You have to understand why this looks suspicious to me. I don't know why I have to spell it out for you. Your interaction with fitz, your telling him you believe him to be scum but not doing anything about it in any real way, points so strongly to distancing.

I mean look at the vote counts. You vote for fitz and IaI on day three and then Jason on day four. Exactly what I would expect from a partner. IaI gets lynched on day 3, Jason gets lynched on day 4. Day five you try to lynch me or Yoshi. Why not fitz? You could have lynched fitz without Magua's ok. DV got lynched that day and Magua didn't want that to happen, and DV was a much stronger town read for Magua then fitz was. The only reason why I can see why you wouldn't want fitz lynched on day 5 even though you thought he was scum was because he was your partner, and you had a much better chance of winning if he lived another couple days.

Day 7, you didn't even come out hard against fitz. Yes, I know you wanted to push on CES and make a determination and see how fitz and NS responded to that, but you didn't vote fitz until the second week. And, I can't get past you deciding to vote him after I posted several posts in which I told you that I thought you might be partners and would you be willing to vote him.

What surprises me is that you need me to summarize why this looks suspicious. If the positions were reversed, you'd be pointing out how suspicious the behavior is as well.

Mod Note: Quote tags fixed.

[Tammy]

@Mod - Can you fix my quote tags in 834, please.

I swear one day I'm going to figure out how to do them properly

[Tammy]

When I get back and have the full time (assuming the game isn't ended prematurely) I'll respond to Tammy's many posts and make my case for why NS is the last scum.

Well the only way this will happen is if you both decide to pile on me or if one of you decides to self-hammer. Two games I was in this week ended with a confession; neither of you are planning on confessing are you? It'd be nice

[Tammy]

Me Too!!!

You made me laugh, which means you're innocent...of course.

[Tammy]

I might give people a pass at the beginning of a game because they make me laugh, but I don't make endgame decisions on it.

[Tammy]

NS - I just, you confuse me. I came into the game thinking you were scum. And then I thought that what I thought was scum was personality and not an alignment tell at all. (ie...you not knowing what you wanted to do or looking for direction.) So, then I thought you were less likely to be scum. Then I read the cache files, and there you seemed more engaged in the game and sure of yourself than you did since the crash, which threw me off. And now in the last week, you're more involved.

There are far more things about MoI that I find suspicious. There are patterns of fitz's behavior that seem to fit with an MoI partnership more than they do with you based on how he acted towards his other partners.

But, there's a whole lot less of you to go on, which of course means there's going to be more that looks suspicious on Magna's end. You never really mentioned fitz or interacted with him so I can't point out to you how it looks suspicious. However, I would at least expect

some

interaction if you were partners.

I don't know. I'm just kind of at a loss.

[Tammy]

Okay so you said earlier that if you had had a nightkill you would have killed CES in order to pit me and MoI against each other rather than have two evenly matched players against each other in endgame. Does that mean in endgame you would not have voted first if you were scum?

[Tammy]

Okay so if you're town, why did you feel it was safe enough to vote for MoI instead of me? You earlier said that you believed I was the SK; I mean sure that's been proven wrong, but my slot was a serious lurker and I didn't make the best entrance for a replacement. MoI then stated that I was making odd posts in the qt and trying to characterize myself as Town Town Town.

[Tammy]

Dammit. I hate using meta but NS I accidentally clicked on Oxymoron mafia thinking I was elsewhere. Am I right that you won as SK in that game?

[Tammy]

Does Magua dying benefit me in any way by framing anyone else? Does Magua dying hurt me?

I think this is the last of your questions I have to answer. And I don't think I have an answer for this one. Magua was PI'd by us all; he'd have been a decent nightkill for anyone. I explained my reasons for why I'm getting tripped up on it where you're concerned; I went over it in the neighborhood too...I don't think I need to state it again. And seeing as how my earlier assumptions on last night's kill were completely incorrect I don't know what to say about it.

[Tammy]

Thanks! I keep forgetting that you can't edit here once you submit.

[Tammy]

This post doesn't serve much of a purpose, but I'm just going to mark this for DV:

This is from Day One - page 13 of the cached files:

Scumreads (from strong to weak):

JasonT1981
Havingfitz I've decided that claiming I didn't make sense/was being hypocritical when I was actually making sense is scummy.
IamInnocent
DarthYoshi Not much more than a feeling right now, but: Why isn't fitz on your suspect list?
MagnaofIllusion Despite the obvious effort put into his posting, I feel that everything he says is carefully constructed and I don't sense much freedom in his expression.

He nailed at least three of the mafia in his scum reads on day one. That's pretty cool.

Neither one of you would like to confess yet, would you?

[Tammy]

This is from page 22 of the cache. I'm marking it because it's part of where I said that NS seemed more engaged in the game before crash. I don't know what to make of it yet.

RC: What did you expect? I'm curious.

Amrun: in the one game I've played with redFF, he was town and more or less lurked through. It may be a non-tell from so little meta, but I have other reasons, too. Like his constant pressuring of Palisade. Scummy.

redFF; I'm posting. Shut up.

DarthYoshi wrote:
@NS: Games please for your meta-reasons on redff. I'd like reactions from you on the following:
-The growth of the MOI wagon
-Jason's claim
-Palisade's most recent list of reads


DY: the game that I played with redFF is Oxymoron Mafia. 93 pages of amazing goodness, have fun. (And it's not so much lurking, as he didn't exactly lurk; it's more of an apathetic mindset that I saw there that I don't see here.)

I have personal bias against MoI so any wagon on him is a good one. Otherwise, I haven't really paid much attention. But Snake's entry to that wagon is bad.

On jason's claim: far too early in the game to be claiming, but from what I know of jason, he can be derpy like that. Null at this point.

Palisade's most recent list of reads: Thank you for pointing this out to me. redFF isn't on the list AT ALL, and MoI, apparently a popular wagon, is town. I don't like the list, nor do I like the lack of promised reasons.

With that...

unvote

Vote: Palisade

Although this screws with my redFF read, but for now I'm happy with voting Palisade. Also, Pali+redFF or Pali+Snake as scum is probably not highly likely.

[Tammy]

I know CES asked earlier, but do either of you know who Baseline's alt is? The playstyle is

really

familiar. Frustrating though because he didn't give an MoI read when he read everyone else. Nailed three of the scumteam though. Oh wait, he got back from his run and movie. You both are weak town reads for him. *Frustrating.* His reads are usually pretty good, which would be helpful if you weren't both the same exact read for him.

/end rambling

[Tammy]

Never mind about Baseline's alt. Just got to the point where he's not outing it. Should probably not comment until I read the rest of the page. Besides, I figured it out anyway.

[Tammy]

Ok so, you know what's frustrating?

MoI's actions and interactions look really suspicious and it's so easy to see the scum motivation behind so many of the things he's done this game.

but But BUT

NS has so little interaction and actions, like seriously my post 853 is the most involved post I've found of his all game, and then he started getting involved again at end game. The lack of effort is, in itself, inherently suspicious.

*Irritating*

--------------------------------

Just putting some notes here for reference, as I'm going out of town for a little while and don't feel like taking them with me.

IaI - Day one had a strong town read of NS, pg. 15 defends MoI to Yoshi, pg.28 says he's not interested in talking out the best player, MoI, day one even though he agrees his performance has been lackluster.

Fitz - Pg. 28 gives soft-suspicion of MoI and supports his wagon but says members on it are less townish than Palisade's and questions MoI scum read a bit, has a null read of NS; day two, page 34, more soft suspicion of MoI as scum.

Muffin interaction with MoI on pg 13 and 34.

MoI day 2 solidifies HF scum read but doesn't push it because Yoshi is a stronger scum read. (I'm formulating a question about this, I think.)

[Tammy]

Thanks NS. While meta can help you understand someone's play style, I'm really hesitant to use it to make determinations on how people act. Once someone knows their meta, most of the time it's pretty easy to replicate, especially in the case of someone being a lot more engaged as scum but not as engaged at town.

I did look at your games as someone, Kamrun maybe, had linked a couple of MoI's games in the archives and I skimmed those. Kinda interesting point, in the game in which MoI was in a 3 person LyLo as scum, he was the first to vote.

The games were helpful to a point, as in they gave me a better feel for you as a player that I was missing due to you not being very much involved.

What would be most helpful though, is not that you're town because you play differently as scum, but why are you town in this game? Why is MoI scum? If you're town, then you

know

MoI is scum. How can you show that he is?

[Tammy]

Acknowledging my prod .

[Tammy]

Hey Magna, in case you're unaware, there are departure trains leaving every 15 minutes from Coney Island. Their first stop is New York. You should buy a ticket.

[Tammy]

Yeah yeah I've been prodded.

NS do you really think I would worry about making a case on you because you were 'so Town' if I was scum? Seriously that's such an absurd statment I find it funny. Especially given Harry Potter where I was able to counterclaim your RoleName and get you lynched easily when you true claimed.

Team Mafia is more important. Tuesday isn't over. Live with disappointment today.

LOL Scumposting.

[Tammy]

Yep.

[Tammy]

I’m so sorry town if I’ve messed this up!

Okay, so…it almost really didn’t matter what Magna would or wouldn’t say, I’m pretty certain my vote’s been fixed for several days now. When I said in thread that I was frustrated over the disparity between the effort of Nobody Special and Magna, I wasn’t kidding. There’s so much suspicious about Magna’s interactions while NS has barely anything that it’s almost unfair to compare them. There was also a point at which NS being so helpful at the end made me feel like I was being manipulated to think he was town just trying to help. *sigh* He still could have been and I could still be messing this up.

The reason why it doesn’t matter what Magna says is because the only way I could think to try to be objective was to

not

actually look at either Magna or NS themselves because only in removing that disparity could I hope to come to some answers. So, what I chose to look at instead was Fitz and what to me seemed like a sticking point – the day five lynch. I really wish I had more information about either of the other scum members, but I don’t so this is what I have to go off of.

Fitz never voted for IaI or Jason. As I noted, he even defended Jason on day four when it became pretty clear that he was caught scum and chose to try to lynch DV instead. When I look at day five, I see a similar pattern. He never once voted for Magna, and seemed to be trying to protect him on day five when three people voted for him. However, he put the fourth vote on NS that day. It was completely unnecessary to put his partner at L-2 that day; he could have voted DV and it wouldn’t have looked weird at all. When we switched for Jon though, he didn’t jump on, he moved to DV, and pretty actively fought against voting for Jon, (lol@Maguapeditsareintheway). I’ve looked at this over and over again trying to make sense of what Fitz was up to.

For me, it looks like scum did not actually want the Jon/CES slot taken out on day 5 as it was a largely empty slot, like mine, which would be good to possibly take to endgame. DV was a town read for most people who would have likely remained alive day 6, and NS was probably expendable as well (unless scum and Fitz was doing distancing and I’m misreading…which is so very likely…sorry town ☹ …and if so congratulations NS/Fitz for fooling me) so either of them were good to take out at that point.

I think it’s probably pretty obvious from my posts though that I’ve been trying to unravel Magna’s actions on the day 5 lynch and am unsatisfied by his actions and his statements. Fitz’s behavior was nearly enough to have me ready to vote Magna about 10 days ago, but nothing Magna has done over the past 10 days – since he laid his vote on NS and said he would be answering my avalanche of posts and making a case against NS – has made me feel like he’s town at all.

NS has been trying to help, and while he could be scum manipulating, Magna’s been doing

nothing

In the neighborhood, I asked Magna how often he makes it to endgame as an innocent. He told me he never gets endgamed as an innocent and he would be giving it all he had. This doesn’t feel like all he’s got to win in endgame. He’s on more than one occasion basically mentioned that another game is more important. This doesn’t feel like something town Magna would say in endgame as town. If I was off base in my interpretations, I feel like Magna would be in here showing me why I’m wrong. But, he’s not. I realize I posted a lot, but it’s not like it takes a lot of energy to even respond to one post a day, especially when you’ve been posting all over site the entire time. I’ve seen towngaveup before…it doesn’t look like this. This looks like scumgaveup. ←-------I’ve ended up going down a really bad path before expecting others to act like I might, so I’m sorry if I’m wrong here.

Anyway, I could keep waiting for Magna to deliver

something

but I’ve been as patient as I can and I don’t want to keep stringing this out for nothing.

Again, I’m so so so sorry town. Please remember that I was a fifth day replacement . And I have an abysmal record for getting things right in endgame. (Once in an aim scum chat game I got it right in 3 person endgame, but every. single. other. time. I’ve made the wrong choice. So sorry town ☹ )

vote: MagnaofIllusion

*crossing my fingers* I hope to wake up to find I made the wrong choice and sorry to town once again if I'm wrong.

[Tammy]

^^^Freudian slip...I hope to wake up to find out I made the *right* choice. *nervous much Tammy?*