TV Mafia Game Over - Scum Win

[Meransiel]

Param. Can't post today, sorry.

[Meransiel]

Blatant prod dodge in case of something.

[Meransiel]

Game awesome so far. Tell me when you're tunneling hard so I have a reason to catchup wall.

[Meransiel]

@Junpei: I don't like posting day 1 in larges. You can ask people.

[Meransiel]

I don't really care if he's usually inactive, I want him to be active this game. Creating a meta of being inactive d1 is stupid, and is a habit that needs to be kicked. If you are town then stop using your meta as an excuse to be lazy and help out.

I do that only in larges. Too much of a headache. Pretend there are 26 players for a day, it's not going to hurt you that much.

[Meransiel]

Noted.

Meran has just jumped up on my scumlist for responding to that post with nothing at all.

You have made posts that imply you'll eventually post something until you finally make a post saying to never expect anything from you. And then you say that you're too lazy and it 'isn't' going to hurt me that much' to have you gone all day? This seems like a scum tactic to get a free ride day 1.

It is a scum tactic to get a free ride day 1.

[Meransiel]

@Meransiel: What is the benefit in you not posting D1?

I'm less bored.

[Meransiel]

Noted.

Meran has just jumped up on my scumlist for responding to that post with nothing at all.

You have made posts that imply you'll eventually post something until you finally make a post saying to never expect anything from you. And then you say that you're too lazy and it 'isn't' going to hurt me that much' to have you gone all day? This seems like a scum tactic to get a free ride day 1.

It is a scum tactic to get a free ride day 1.

I'm assuming you're referring to my tracker claim? The difference is that with my role known, if I were mafia then there'd be other mechanical ways of trapping me and proving that I'm mafia. Your method is nothing more than 'i will not post till d2' which of course implies that you know you'll live d2. This also implies that we will have some benefit in not lynching you today. It also gives us to material to scumhunt you with in future days if you survive.

No, I was talking about me. Yes, I am doing something that would benefit me were I scum.

[Meransiel]

Nah, I'd rather you guys lynch me. I don't see how that would help you, but whatever.

[Meransiel]

No vigilantes need to do anything. As I said, I will be helpful tomorrow.

[Meransiel]

Merans, can you post examples of you sitting out Day 1? Cause you diddin't do it in Super Hero Revolution OR SEMG, both of which are Larges I've played with you in.

Rodion: Yeah, Lyncher seems fairly rare on this site.

-diddin

In Square Enix, I active lurked. In Super Hero, Magna was pushing hard on me and I had to do something.

[Meransiel]

Leon is prob-town. At least he's done nothing that makes me think he's scum. killer's 'case' on him is stretching.

Not reading DavidX as scum, either.

Why. Why. Why.

Dear God. Do people want to give more input than, "KJ is being silly, he should just believe Leon is town like the rest of us."?

And Meransiel is just being a dick, not much good we can do besides asking for him to be replaced. Seriously though, why sign up for larges if you aren't even going to play? Kind of ruins the game for the rest of us..

As I said, ignore me for 1 day. I don't understand how that would hurt you. Even if I AM scum, shouldn't I have partners for you to look for?

[Meransiel]

Thanks vezok, I owe you one.

Vote: Zinger

[Meransiel]

Also you guys do know that I am more active than 40% the playerlist, right?

[Meransiel]

You could replace Pine if you wanted. Or Glowball. Or 4 other people. But nooo, I'm easy meat.

[Meransiel]

Wow, it worked.

I really doubt a mafia would make himself public enemy number 1 they way Meransiel seems to be. Honestly, if he says he'll become active Day 2; let's just take his word for now and actually contribute on scumhunting. We're just helping mafia by harassing someone over such a small deal.

Town.

[Meransiel]

Also, Meransiel, after your apparent revelation with marco, are you going to contribute now?

No, not really. Now that I gave you an obvtown, can you please let me lurk quietly? Thank you.

[Meransiel]

Anyway, Chevre, you have a single useful post, which is a huge wall where you lainly agree with people and park your vote on me with little to add to that.

Therefore, I will smile and ignore you.

[Meransiel]

What revelation? He just called me town? Mafia would know this best.

I'm not insinuating he's mafia though. The lurking and uncooperative attitude is annoying and irritating but until he's pulling off a major gambit, I really do think he's town. Our power roles can make the right decisions. Let's not waste our time trying to lynch him.

The lurking and uncooperative attitude are a great shield of a reason to park one's vote, or influence others into doing so. You're neither. Therefore, town.

[Meransiel]

Zinger, you're focusing discussion on yourself in a completely useless way, which helps because I am suspecting the people attacking you. You have my gratitude.

[Meransiel]

The fact you want so badly to make it to n1 scares me. Town wouldn't have to show that desire this way, scum might.

You can lynch me if you want to, I don't really care. So this point is null and void. By the way, this is exactly how I, as scum, was trying to get a VI lynched in one of my games. Easy way to pass as desperate town who did, in fact, find scum.

Vote: Junpei

@Zinger: I don't care if you were aware or not, you are still very helpful.

@Peregrine: I am neither analyzing the entirety of the game nor looking for relational tells to better read everybody. I am simply generating discussion. Which requires nothing more than reading the page you're posting on.

[Meransiel]

Meran then how the fuck do you plan to be competent day 2 after 40 pages have been posted? You'll be so far behind we'll never see you.

Also I got this from your post:

1) You're doing something you do as scum normally

2) You think I'm a village idiot.

AtE voting noted.

0. As you can easily see, I am reading all pages I am posting on. So no, only 17 pages to munch for me. Pages that will make more sense and are more worth a damn after I see the night kills.

1. Yes, if I were scum I would play the same way right now.

2. No, I think I'm a village idiot. Who attracts scum.

@chk: Zinger is safe for today. Cause I say so. Honestly you gain nothing from his death.

[Meransiel]

Obv, neither SK nor Survivor would act like him.

[Meransiel]

UNVOTE: Meransiel

Because there is other stuff bigger than Meran now.

Zinger, you just softclaimed Lyncher. I want proper info on your role.

FoS: Junpei

Zinger says it all.

Did you just ask for a roleclaim? I don't see the point in giving the mafia a bigger informational advantage than they already have.

My, my, I am pretty confident in my vote that's already on you. Speaking of, don't you have anything to say to the accusations on you? Anything at all?

Actually, that is just goomba being goomba.

[Meransiel]

No.

[Meransiel]

I don't want flinger to win, he doesn't deserve to win. If he is third party/scum (he is confirmed one of those) then he will be less likely to win by killing him. If we don't lynch him I demand we shoot him via vigilante.

1. You said you were logical. Stop being illogical
2. Stop directing the night kill.

[Meransiel]

I agree, we are definitely not hammering any time soon.

In the event we decide to lynch him, we have Meran hammer, agreed? That is unless someone more suspicious comes up or Meran begins to post more.

I will not hammer Zinger. I will not let Zinger hammer me.

[Meransiel]

He doesn't want to hammer me.

[Meransiel]

Hmm, damn, maybe you're right. I'll go ISO Leon.

[Meransiel]

Yes. On a skim, he didn't appear blatantly scummy, but I'll reread.

[Meransiel]

Also

unvote

, missed the tracker claim.

[Meransiel]

Dear old Magna. Reading me like an open book .

[Meransiel]

Meh, Zinger is still Third Party that got scared he'd get lynched and changed his thoughts. I don't like french-fry-dude's post.

Also, nothing scummy about Leon, sorry.

[Meransiel]

Actually it is totally different, because being a SK is actually a believable role. Being a self-aligned Jailkeeper with a lyncher-esque win-con? Nope.

All of the reasoning for the Zinger lynch gets demolished by one simple fact: Zinger is a dumbass. He is so much more likely to do this as town than as any other alignment.

Which is why I think he should just be replaced or ignored until he gets replaced.

This is one way to look at it.

The other is to think that, hey, maybe Zinger's wincon is not that hard to achieve. When does that happen? When his supposed target has a better survivability rate. When does THAT happen? When his target is mafia, naturally.

I don't necessarily believe the above, I was just showing that setup speculation can get one anywhere. What we do know (sort or) is that Zinger is not a member of mafia.

[Meransiel]

izak, please try answering to people that are voting you, it's getting sad.

[Meransiel]

And also, are you willing to tell us the names of the people who've neighbourized you? I'm inclined to agree that both aren't likely to be town, so by having the two names we can analyse who's more likely to be non-town..

I don't like this at all.

Vote: david Xanatos

[Meransiel]

Of course that didn't pan out at all like I planned. Oh well, these things happen. When you make a gambit, you have to be prepared to have it blow up in your face.

No ongoing game talk and shit, but I understand this completely. Xanatos, I still don't like your post.

[Meransiel]

Overall, I got the feeling izak's

noooooottttt really

trying to scumhunt. At least to me it felt like he's content with lynching Zinger today, and that's grounds for not scumhunting the rest of the day. Since he wouldn't want to lynch anyone else, there must be no point. I'd looove thoughts on izak, guys. I still believe Zinger is a wonderful lynch today, and his flip would give me some insight on izak. But I felt this point was note-worthy and definitely worth bringing up.

This is, again, the way izak normally plays.

[Meransiel]

Also, Zel1nk, if you want izak dead that badly, vig him. I actually think that is a VERY good idea.

[Meransiel]

I will reformulate. I am ignoring only the pages that were written before my first post (1-16 I think). And by "ignore", I mean that I did read them, but I will not comment on them until a night has passed and kills have been revealed. Because that would help me arrive to more logical and spot-on conclusions.

[Meransiel]

Well not exactly "comment" in an ample fashion but I do have some reads. So, via the method of using my own posts as landmarks and narrating what is in between, here is what I gathered, in a stream of consciousness kind of way. If some of those look open ended or incomplete, then they most likely are, I don't like arriving to conclusions too hastily. If anything I say here is wrong courtesy of me not having read the first pages, I wouldn't really give a damn.

Ok so page 15 seems like a jolly place to start in.

1. Rodion votes Zinger as a thinly veiled pressure incentive, overtly enough.
2. silvedrummer posts something rather large which...is mostly fluff. Mentions his hate for walls, the scumminess of a Marcus guy, gives kinda lame reasons for Magna being scum. Is very protective of you (apparently despite the opinion of the other head, I don't really know what to think about that). Votes pine although he talked more about Marco, probably because Pine has more votes on him. Scumpoints
3. You questioning him about the actual reading of the walls, and the suspicious way he jumped on Pine. Townpoints. I probably should've paid attention to you more early-on, but whatever. Anyway, since you're out of my scope due to your tracker claim, I will disregard your posts from analysis for now.
4. Good straight questions and ultimatum from volkan. Alternate interpretation would be that he's rushing in on a quicklynch (5 definitive scum reads after 15 pages? Come on!). Dunno which of them right now.
5. Silver, instead, is CLEARLY rushing in on it, under the soft cushion of the lynch all lurkers banner. More scumpoints.
6. Zel1nk, following on Zinger, no real problem with that. I should probably ISO eazjo tomorrow, as Z1nger's uncc'd vig claim (in a 27 player large, there's little chance there are no vigs, k'mon) practically confirms him town. Will disregard from analysis.
7. Silver is dissonant right here. Like, he looked much more nah-its-bs on the vifam gig in his last post.

As a passive thing. There are many lurkers in this game, so what does the large number of people focusing on Pine tell me? Well, two things: either that is possible cause scum see easy meat there, or bussing for towncred. EITHER way, Pine wagon has-will have scum.

8. Again, izak is unreadable courtesy of his stupidity. Again, disregarded from analysis.
9. Vollkan backtracks on his ultimatum. Ok, I made my mind now. < scum
10. Vezok with the meta. Still null on it right now.
11. Vollkan points out a contradiction that's not there for the sake of argument. Yeah, moving on.

Currently Oversoul and Silver are on Pine. Dunno about oversoul, don't really care right now. But I think silver is scummy so my theory works. I don't like the wagon on Leon, because as I said I ISO'd him and found nothing wrong. Wait, Oversoul for prod? Oh, he must've just parked his vote. Maybe they're both scum.

12. KJ picking the easy discussion subject of me to hide himself behind of. Scumpoints.

Page 16

1. ThAd hard on theory, no real reads. Scumpoints, but minor
2. Lol, ALSO disregarding Zinger from my analysis. But for the record, I still think that goomba is a better vig target.
3. Silver tunneling hard.
4. ThAd in 379 making a subtle attempt to switch general focus away from the players currently active. Will look into it.
5. vezok's backtrack is weird, especially as he didn't actually say anything wrong. Don't know what to think of it right now,
6. Nero Cain only commenting on first pages, can't say if he's right or wrong. However, votes Chevre for a reason he might as well be voting Pine for. For now, that equates as a town tell.
7. Silver's post is hypocritical, as he could be asked the same question in reverse. Scumpoints. Also, by relational tells, gives me town vibes towards Nero Cain
8. Nero Cain admits that Pine is doing the same thing,quite correctly, and calls out silver for focusing on his tunneling and not answering other things. Town points.
9. "other head did that..."...I hate this line.
10. Chevre's post, largely WIFOM, or siding with the majority, or game theory. Votes me for bullshit reasons. Don't have a definite read on her though (sounds weird? Well, I don't see scum motivation yet). When I get a better read on her, hopefully I could also make sense of the Nero Cain interaction with her.
11. Rodion swiftly talks game theory. Now that I better think of it, his first post on 15 added up to this one make him an active lurker. Awesome, scum points.
12. Pinky blatantly lying. Scumpoints.
13. chk putting some easy to ask, rather random half of the time questions. Null
14. Threeisfrench doing nothing. Unreadable so far.

Page 17

1. I don't understand DonJosh's post. Actually, JOSH, CAN YOU PLEASE EXPLAIN WHAT YOU MEANT PLEASE?
2. Um...lol...
3. Rodion providing the games. Didn't take much effort so I'm not any more forgiving of him for doing that. The relevant part of his post (last 2 rows) is still pure tunneling on the leading wagon. Scumpoints.
4. Leon's post makes sense. Don't know if it makes him deserving of the "town" pinkie ring just yet, but it does single out the fact that KJ isn't doing the best job in the world in hunting for him.
5. chk with the apology. Still null
6. Chevre with the game theory and the wanting to get rid of me again. Scumpoints ahoy.
7. TIF...yup, now I'm sure he's/they're active lurking. Scumpoints.
8. Don't like pinky's second-last part of the post due to relational tells. Chevre's post DOES look like the wall post a lurker scum would make. Scumpoints, invalidated if Chevre is town. However, invalidated=/= town, and his lazy vote on izak proves me right.
9. chk reasonably explaining his thinking. null yet
10. Pappus' post is "what the fuck?!". Pending a read
11. David making a null post. Onward
12. Claiming unprovoked IS a reason to be weary of someone. I don't like andrew's jab at leon. Also calls Junpei town, like it means something after he claimed tracker, lol. Scumpoints
13. KJ backpedaling like a pro. Major scumpoints. The vote on izak doesn't help him either.

Page 18

1. Grasping at straws. Izak's entire play is terrible, no need to single out parts of it to sound more believable. KJ gets more scumpoints.
2. Chevre gogo mightly morphin' active lurking. Scumpoints.
3. Silver failing.
4. No idea what to think of Marco.
5. ThAd, again, talking game theory like a pro. Also looking like a responsible little protownie by requesting my replacement. Scumpoints.
6. Vezok with his usual sheeping. Null though, I understand this kind of behavior.
7. ThAd...you fail.
8. Volkan seeing vezok as easy meat to jab in some more attacks. I don't know if it applies both ways, but volkan scum->vezok town with some accuracy. Also, Volkan refusing to acknowledge any scumminess coming from Chevre.
9. Yeah, vezok explains it the way it actually happens. A bit unclear but I'll live with it.
10. If that is what you had in my head, then well, I don't really see its use, dear Pinky. Scumpoints.
11. Volkan with the Enlarged Dominate Person Bullshit Domain Divine Spell. Can't say I'm surprised.
12. Volkan being more of an obnoxious dick than me. Also his WIFOMing of WIFOM arguments. Fuck's sake, people, no jesters in this game. None.

Page 19

1. KJ is...unfortunately spot on here. Less scum read, but still not back to null.
2. ThAd now HONESTLY active lurking, instead of the usual walls of game theory. I'm proud of you, man. Also scumpoints.
3. DX still not providing much.
4. After so much time since his first post, which keep in mind, was nothing but a simple unvote, marco is still being utterly useless. I think intentionally. I don't like the guy
5. However, his stance on me can't come from scum, as I have said myself. So, again, there's your conftown. If he's not, I'm giving you money after the game ends. Disregard from analysis.
6. Thankfully, KJ's next post here puts him back in the scum category.
7. Chevre glorifying herself. She could just aswell jump around shouting "IM USEFUL IM USEFUL". Scumpoints.
8. PeregrineV starting to exist in the game. I would like to know why he voted DavidX. I HOPE HE SEES THIS SO HE COULD ANSWER.
9. chk taking the easy subjects of Zinger and me again. I'm...sightly leaning scum now, the slight coming from the fact that junpei is largely doing the same thing in many of his posts, and he's town.

Page 20

1. chk being...rather reasonable. Back to null.
2. Ok so Oversoul back with the big guns after a well deserved prod. Let's see what he says. Hmm...his reads are mostly null or town. Though I like the fact that he's voting silver. Null slightly leaning town.
3. Let's see what MoI has to say.
4. Oversoul's read of KJ puzzles me a bit, but I don't think it's anything too important.
5. Xanatos giving...ok answers to chk. Ok, maybe I should've not judged him so early. Back to null. Oh, and

Unvote

.
6. KJ failing. Points out izak's rolefishing, that is utterly meaningless. Not because it's izak, but because he was claimed third party at the time. It feels like an automatism, of scum wanting to get towncred. Scumpoints
7. TIF with the hop and no content as always. Scumpoint.
8. Chk range bussing.
9. Oooh, rodion doing something, let's have a look. First part is pure fluff, null. Second part is rather reasonable, but I'm not entirely sure why exactly those were the points he wanted to touch on, and not others.

Page 21

1. PeregrineV with the excuse to land a post after not doing so in quite a while.

At this point, by the way, I'm starting to doubt Nero Cain as a town read. Don't really get why he's not posting.

2. silver dismissing shit so as to make sure his tunnel target gets the rope. Scumpoints.
3. Pappums...PROMISED further reads but didn't provide any here. Scumpoints. Also notice how his posts are 100-posts apart. As in, evenly spread and very few. Hmm....
4. TIF practically begging to be hanged. Actually I will just

Vote: TIF

for now and see if anything changes over time.
5. DX, though caught up, answers only in respect to the current pages. My read on him changes as often as I shower (and I love taking showers).
6. Chevre answering to an OOOLD post of mine, unconcerned with stuff going on. Also, again, calls her own posts awesome.
7. Useless setup speculation down the page, will disregard.
8. Flooding thread like pros. And yeah, Xanatos is the epicenter.
9. Rodion back to his active lurking ways.

Page 22

1. Townpoints to MoI for attempting to stop the bullshitting.

Ohwait, just noticed MoI was also voting for Xanatos. Maybe there is something there after all...

2. Don't like xanatos' posts on this page.
3. andrew makes a...reasonable point, bu again, I don't like his participating in a single discussion.
4. Chevre with the obsession. Srs now, if you wanna fuck me, state it. I might allow. Still scum tho.

Rest of the page is people I said I will disregard, so moving on.

Meh, that's the first part. Yes, I HAVE read everything else, just not written my thoughts in the most coherent way. Expect the rest to come rather soon. My reads and suspicions can be easily extrapolated from this post.

[Meransiel]

NINJA'D

@Vig: No, don't worry about it, vigging goomba is ALWAYS a good idea. Trust me.

[Meransiel]

And for the record, the Jailkeeper role was originally created as a fix to the Doctor (to prevent the powerful Doc-Cop combo), so while it does Roleblock people, it spawned from the Doctor, not the Roleblocker. I don't see how being a Jailkeeper makes you more likely to be scum in any way.

Jailkeeper CAN'T be a scum role. So claiming jailkeeper is opportunistically scummy. Not saying that you are, just giving my general opinion.

[Meransiel]

Jailkeeper CAN'T be a scum role.

Er, yes it can. It's probably rarer, but I've seen it before..

Um...lol? Unless town had a rolecop, the moderator probably overdosed on opium when making the setup.

[Meransiel]

Mafia Jailkeepers are

explicitly

allowed in Mini Normals. Why wouldn't they be allowed/possible in a Large Theme?

In fact, YOU'VE PLAYED IN A LARGE THEME GAME WITH A SCUM JAILKEEPER (admittedly you replaced out, BUT STILL)

Multiscum game. I rest my case.

That's down to fucking difference in opinion (or possibly mis-remembering), not lying.

As a side point or a passing reference, maybe. But when you use forged meta to make someone look suspicious, it's not

fucking

difference in opinion. Nor misremembering. It's just that - using forged meta to make someone look suspicious.

The point I was making wrt Zinger-Chevre was a possible scum-slip from Zinger (obviously I was trying to approach it subtly) - in hind-sight, pappums' interpretation of a town-slip is more logical.

How the hell is my izak vote 'lazy' when I made a case?

I understand the point you were trying to make. I didn't disprove it or anything, that's not the way relational tells work.
Your vote on izak IS lazy because:
1. izak gives enough material to make a case on anyway
2. izak does not defend himself properly

[Meransiel]

Yes it can. Why would you say that it can't?.

Because...*facepalms*...scum need only roleblock people. Not protect them. Unless one mafia jails another in order to protect him from a SK or something.

[Meransiel]

Yes it can. Why would you say that it can't?.

Because...*facepalms*...scum need only roleblock people. Not protect them. Unless one mafia jails another in order to protect him from a SK or something.

*facepalms*

I have been in games where scum had protective roles. Scum can need protection, from becoming Vig targets.

Mafia doctor =/= Mafia jailkeeper.

You do realize that if a scum team is reduced to 2 players, one of them a jailer, and decides to use his protect, they basically lose their night kill?


PEDIT: Ok, thanks, I'm cool with that, PV.

[Meransiel]

Junpei, you're a dedicated little kid. But, since I couldn't have said it better...

But you don't lynch a claimed Town PR Day 1 no matter how bad their play is.

[Meransiel]

Also I'd note that Meransiel calls game theory talk scummy, however here he is talking about game theory. Do you not think it is really a scum tell Meransiel?

I'm not talking game theory, I am ironically dismissing ideas relevant to this game in particular. Different. Also, your claim, different from Zinger's or not, has nothing to do with Zinger's

Also, think about this: is a 4th player run up to lynch and having to claim a better or worse thing than losing an actual jailer? Well?

[Meransiel]

@pop quiz: I don't. Night will tell me. Night has not come.

Anyway, since you guys are not interested in killing off non-posters, I think I should place my vote on someone who is not TIF.

Unvote

So my scumreads so far are DavidX, ThAd, Silver, Vollkan and Chevre (in no particular order, and disregarding Rodion and TIF cause of the reason on the line above). What should it be, hm...well Chevre and Vollkan are verbose enough to not ignore me calling them scummy, so I shouldn't bother there. And the prize goes to...

VOTE: Silver

And now I'm patiently waiting for people to accuse me of sheeping. I think I will ISO DavidX now, maybe post what I find tomorrow.

[Meransiel]

Also notice how Zinger is derailing the thread with you, this topic of game theory this early is worthless.

I am not derailing the thread. The theory we are discussing is pertinent to the current situation and has merit to be discussed.

Whether or not there is a mafia jail keeper shouldn't be relevant to you as you believe yourself to be a town jail keeper correct?

Although I have to admit, this comment here is pretty intelligent.

[Meransiel]

So my scumreads so far are DavidX, ThAd, Silver, Vollkan and Chevre (in no particular order, and disregarding Rodion and TIF cause of the reason on the line above).

Do you want to correct yourself Meransiel? Where is Killerjester on this list? Your post earlier heavily implies you would want to lynch him, and he is not a non-poster.

Forgot about him for a second, sorry. Yes, you are correct, KJ too.

[Meransiel]

Zinger, don't think too hard about it. You know how hard it is to fake a tracker registry for two nights or more?

[Meransiel]

@silver - the size of a wagon is less important than whether you're the first one voting on him or not. And you said in your post what my opinion of Pine is: just a simple lurker.

@volkan - It does. Only multiscum have a reason to have Mafia JK. We will know that this is multiscum after the night passes. We can PRETEND this is not multiscum until a night passes. Comprendre?

@Rodion - Quick question. Are. You. Stupid? How the fuck can I advocate the lynch of someone I think is town?

[Meransiel]

No, it's not a balance consideration. 99% of the time it is just as strong as a mafia roleblocker, so there's nothing really different balance wise.

[Meransiel]

One more thing!

3. Rodion providing the games. Didn't take much effort so I'm not any more forgiving of him for doing that. The relevant part of his post (last 2 rows) is still pure tunneling on the leading wagon. Scumpoints.

Please explain why I get scumpoints for answering chkballin's question.

You get no points, neither scum nor town for answering. That is why I said the only part of your post that is relevant is the end, and the end is scummy.

[Meransiel]

Actually, JK isnt even redundant in a game with a single scum faction. It could be used, for example, to both roleblock and stop people targeting a scummy claimed-PR. .

I don't understand this statements. And we can have multi-layered discussions just fine. As long as the top layer is relevant.

[Meransiel]

@Meri: Why is tunnelling

the biggest and easiest wagon without providing other suspects

scummy?

Dunno.

[Meransiel]

Same with Chevre.

I like you.

[Meransiel]

@Leon (Post #820) - Don't you find it a little.. ironic that you're calling a Hydra out on being semi-inactive?

Meran - "Anyway, since you guys are not interested in killing off non-posters" - Might sound a little nitpicky, but why use that phrase? Are you serious advocating the lynch of essentially a random for being less active?

No, I have suspects that are lurking right now, but I'm NOT suspecting them for the lurking in particular. Nothing random there. But since people don't seem to care about those, I will let Zel1nk handle the issue. Oh, about that, almost forgot:

@Zel1nk: If you vig Zinger, I will replace out.

[Meransiel]

Also..

"hm...well Chevre and Vollkan are verbose enough to not ignore me calling them scummy, so I shouldn't bother there."

There are two ways I can see this being meant.. care to point me to which way you meant it? Once again it's a nitpick but it's something that did flag up to me..

Chevre, at least, has a nice time ducking up at me (sorry if this expression does not exist in the English language, it is a direct translation). So they would argue the reasons with which I call them scummy even if I don't vote them, which works for investigation.

@Zel1nk: Let me reformulate. If you vig Zinger I will replace out AND blacklist you.

[Meransiel]

@David: I do believe the vig, yes. I'm like, not suspecting him at all until lylo.

@TIF: Glad you're down to business. Please state why you think ThAd is town.

[Meransiel]

And to any nitpickers that may exist, yes, I know I should also ask about Rodion, given my stance on him. But I like taking things one at a time.

[Meransiel]

Well I don't really see townie intentions in not having ANY intentions and mostly empty posts, myself. Appearing to contribute to be regarded as town is a scum motive. Or at least that's how I see it, not that he's my top suspect (or top 3 for that matter) or anything.

[Meransiel]

really? i don't find him to be trying to look town; hes done a few risky posts which i cant see coming from scum..

Specifically?

[Meransiel]

EasJo(2) Oversoul (2) have been prodded

V/LA for 7 days

Mod: Confirmed, enjoy your V/LA

[Meransiel]

Back from my V/LA.

So why the fuck is Zinger still almost dead?

[Meransiel]

@Rod:

backhanded stuff

1. That is bullshit. I have nothing else to say.

2. Your post 404 is scummy because it is you parking your vote on somebody who you admit that you don't know it's scum, with the possibility of shifting it to someone ELSE you admit you don't know is scum if need arises. Basically pure pressure/convenience votes.

3. Your 908 is scummy as well. Because it clearly implies that if I am scum then Zinger is town. However, your vote is not on me. Wonder why...ow yeah, because the other wagon is at L-1?

[Meransiel]

I'm hammering tonight.

Why?

[Meransiel]

I don
t really feel like it, I think I made myself clear enough. If you scumslip by accidentally misunderstanding me, well then, go town .

[Meransiel]

I don
t really feel like it, I think I made myself clear enough. If you scumslip by accidentally misunderstanding me, well then, go town .

If you don't wish to clear yourself, I'll reserve the right to interpret how I see fit.

If you suggested that my vote was not on you because I'd rather use it to get Zinger lynched you are wrong. Zinger was lynched and I'm not one of the 14 people there. I'm not sure if you have been skimming or not but I unvoted right after I realized what Junpei and you were trying to do. I'm not sure if you skimmed because you didn't make yourself clear as I requested and that grants me the right to consider you did skim (find it unfair? Tough luck. Don't be a bitch next time someone questions you).

As to your question of why I didn't have my vote on you, the answer is because you went V/LA while we discussed and I decided to wait for your answers before that. Admiral thinks everyone should have a vote by the end of the day and I'll comply (but I will not pick between the 2 main wagons). Mine, for the record (because the lynch has already been decided), is on Meransiel.

VOTE: Meransiel

No, I know you're not on the Zinger wagon. That is PART of the point I'm trying to make. But the very fact that you waited until the end of the day to place a vote, AND that you said a hammer is not good only after someone expressed that he wants to hammer, clearly shows letting a wagon you didn't want going on develop via inaction. Have. I. Made. Myself. Clear?

Btw, for the record, could be a rather small chance of this happening, but I'll have to say it anyway...PRs, please take this into account: due to the nature of my role, some pretty fucked up shit happens if I am protected. You can still do anything else, investigations, kills, roleblocks, whatever, but keep this in mind: no doctoring around.

[Meransiel]

Nobody can scumslip that stupidly. Not saying PeregrineV is not scum, but saying that his statement is either a lie or a misguess.

[Meransiel]

It reads more like an overly-specific way of criticising the two leading wagons

Sorry if I didn't notice, but who is this addressed to? I think the silver wagon was good.

@DX: You really shouldn't want me to reveal more than is strictly necessary. Stop right there.

@Zel1nk: I don't know who you will vig tonight, and quite frankly, you're not limited to a single person, and if we direct you mafia has more control over it. But, please, with a cherry on top, DO use your ability.

[Meransiel]

Ok, I did NOT expect that night kill, still boggles me. I think it was perfectly random. Anyway,I will

Vote: Silver

for now, lament a bit that he wasn't the D1 lynch.

@magna: Looking forward to your line of thought.
@Zel1nk: Please confirm that you DID shoot last night, and it simply didn't work.
@Rodion: A definite, consistent and exemplified case for why I am scum please.

[Meransiel]

@people who are confused at the fact that I chose Vezok, I'm fine with answering any questions regarding it.

I have only 1 question. Have you played with vezok before?

[Meransiel]

admiral, you should know better than to call me sailing under the boat. thats a bad case and it is tunneling.

silver classicly saying 'im just continuely with my day 1 scum reads' (Same as admiral there)
meransiel i recalled you saying you would be useful day 2. care to share?

I was useful day 1 too. I also expressed a suspicion of silver that I have no reason to change right now. Therefore, yeah, I know what to do and if something new sparks up, which I don't guarantee but will be in the lookout for, I may change my suspicions. The lynch didn't reveal anything, I thought Zinger was town anyway, the night kill was random as hell, so there's nothing new to go on.

[Meransiel]

ZELINK MUST POST FASTER. AND IF HE WASNT ROLEBLOCKED I WILL MAKE HIM EAT SHIT

[Meransiel]

Can we get a prod on our lazy vig? Also still awaiting Rodion's response.

[Meransiel]

It irks me that he "pretended" to have responded, tbh.

[Meransiel]

Ah, almost forgot.

VOTE: silver

I'm slightly confused as to why scum would WANT to neighbor MoI. That's why I'm steering clear of andrew for now.

[Meransiel]

@Meransiel, why wouldn't they want to neighborize MoI?

Well....let's just say that he's not that generous with town reads. A scum neighborizer would want...allies to begin with, or maybe add someone MoI has a scumread on and the MoI later. Dunno, it seems suboptimal to me.

[Meransiel]

@MOI:

What is your read on Rodion right now?

I would like to know this too.

[Meransiel]

No way. Zelink must definitely claim. IMO anyway.

[Meransiel]

I find it scummy to pick on such an easy target.

Agreed.

However, if such an easy target survives another night, I think I will start crying.

[Meransiel]

It's not as confusing as you are painting it to be- so that's noted. I am not saying I am too dumb to read an idiot, I am saying that idiots play like idiots and are generally hard to read if you are someone who has a brain . Andrew plays a game that makes no sense for town IMO, he's made me think he's scum twice and I've been wrong and I've been right. I say his play is unvarying and a little ridiculous.

My read on Rodion is that he isn't a threat and he isn't a day 2 lynch. At best Rodion is a serial killer, but I am almost positive he's town.

How would you have knowledge that lets you determine that a player is either town or a serial killer, but definitely not scum?

What are you hoping to determine from this line of questioning? AND with that, is it beneficial more to town or to scum? It is my belief that the answers you want are more beneficial to scum. General play also shares some weight in my opinion of Rodion...

Now that I have said my piece on Rodion, if you push his lynch and he flips as I suspect- then you will shoot up my suspect list.

Great way to bs out of answering a question. Scumpoints. Thanks.

@Rodion: Stop being obfuscating and MOTIVATE your vote on me. With actual...you know, motives.

Also, I invite people to do 2 things:
1. Please ISO shotty. Go on, you'll get the point one way or the other.
2. Stop talking about izak. Just ignore him, God damn it, there's no point.

[Meransiel]

Cause he always plays like this.

[Meransiel]

@Leon:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 52&t=17264
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 52&t=16946
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 11&t=17245

Off the top of my head.

@Rodion: Yeah, THAT was what irked me like you pretended you have a case on me.

By the way, ThAd's latest post looks ridiculously town from my perspective, I think I should reread him.

[Meransiel]

I'm with andrew on this TBH, as much as I dont like him sometimes Jenpie looks really opportunistic

Ok, this style of posting from you needs to stop.

Vote: shotty

I'm ok with hammering on Silver. or Rodion. Nobody else. But until need arises, my vote stays here. Also, Castle Bravo is starting to become one of my town reads.

[Meransiel]

Okay. Impression of Peregrine from reading through his ISO and checking contexts is that he's far, far too non-commital, as you say. His entire D1 play could be summarised as "X makes a good point, but so does Y."

*votes someone non-controversial*.

At this point, I would be behind pressure on him, not to a full-claim perhaps, but I want a list of his reads, with reasoning. No "well X might be Y", solid reads. If he doesn't have any solid reads by now, I'd say that's grounds enough for investigation.

This is a Large, so the type of non-commital character Peregrine has is rather understandable.If anything, I'm null on the guy.

[Meransiel]

@Banshee: If I would disregard that, I would find him scummy. But I can't disregard it.
@shotty: The kind of posting where you give your input and nothing else without justification and reasoning, the kind of posting where you don't ask questions, yes.

@Link: dunno if you tried or not, but please kill izak. For my own sanity.

[Meransiel]

Someone keeps mentioning "that's the way he plays", but have you done an ISO on him?

*raises hand*
Yes, I have. You see, the point of a lynch is looking for who is against, who is biding his time, who is pushing too hard. Relational tells. However, since we ALL agree that izak is scummy and useless, we ALL condone his death. Ergo, there's not relational tells to speak of.

@Rainbowdash: Not sure if you mentioned this or not, but what are your town reads? All of them, not necessarily in any specific order.

Also, since I am getting sick of this, can someone please read Rodion's case on me, then ISO my posts, then agree that YES, it IS a bad case?

[Meransiel]

@Junpei: My point is not that Rodion's case on me is scummy. My point is that Rodion's case on me is wrong, and there's no reason I should be viewed with suspicion because of it. He IS scummy on his own, yes, but that's a different matter.
@andrew: I...don't understand. In a nutshell, what. do you think. about ThAdmiral? And by nutshell, I still mean a little more than potential alignment,

[Meransiel]

Ok. I will try to say this plainly so you all get the point.

There are 2 kinds of mafia:

1. Without daytalk.
2. With daytalk.

This affects various parameters, one of which is, how a mafia neighborizer would act.

1. In case 1: Obviously, he would play it safe and neighborize HIS OWN TEAM. Which means that if andrew is scum then MoI is scum. Which is a massive leap that I will not make.
2. In case 2: Only benefit of neighborizing would be to get people to trust you well enough that you may get role information from them. MoI is not that kind of person.

That being said, and because you guys apparently don't care about shotty for some apparent reason,

VOTE: Silver

Andrew is not dying. I don't want to not be able to stop another mislynch like yesterday, feels like my fault anyway.

[Meransiel]

@Banshee: That is exactly what I think, yes. Also, don't bother with izak. Rather, ISO Rodion. Hint hint.

[Meransiel]

@Banshee: That is exactly what I think, yes. Also, don't bother with izak. Rather, ISO Rodion. Hint hint.

You realise my main case has been on Rodion since I entered the game, right?

Some people just don't GET sarcasm. Ohwell, serves me right being obscure.

[Meransiel]

You're an idiot Rainbowdash.

I approve of this comment.

[Meransiel]

Dear Rainbowdash, Andrew is very scummy, you discredit the wagon without stating any specific points you have issues with, similarly you are doing the same thing with the Silver wagon.

I discredit the wagon WITH specific points I have issues with. So can we not lynch him pls pls?

[Meransiel]

@Meran:

I think it was you who was appealing to the vig to shoot Izak, yet you've expressed that you don't want him lynched (working on memory here, please correct me if I'm wrong). What's the difference between lynching and vigging Izak in your view? Why that distinction?

Asked and answered. If he's scum there's no relational tells to be gained by lynching him, as everyone thinks he's scummy (the fact that some think andrew/silver are more scummy than him is irrelevant). A vig kill is much more straightforward and simple. Lynches should be reserved for people where there is some opposition and some vagueness.

[Meransiel]

@Banshee:

1. Yeah, to an extent, the extent being that Zinger didn't have to die at all, but whatever.
2. There are people saying Silver is town. The pony guy is the first that comes to mind, but there are others, though I don't recall them right now.

@David Xanatos: Think about it from this perspective:

I don't agree with Zel1nk's reads. I don't think he will choose good targets by himself. Anyway, said targets have similar chances of being scum/town as izak, so it's the same in that respect. Except it's not the same, because.....

Who would harm the town more if he is vigged and flips town?
1. Izak
or
2. Everybody else?

There's also the option of the vig not vigging. Which is similar to the vig vigging izak and izak being protected! .

[Meransiel]

MoI, how important in your suspicion of Pappums is his tunneling on Chevre (now Chevre's slot)? Cause, well IMO anyway, Chevre's slot was scummy.

[Meransiel]

I don't see tunneling on Chevre since he doesn't have that many posts regarding her. I am a little uneased with the fact that all his Chevre posts are to the town, he never investigates chevre by asking any questions or posing any requests. So I certainly would say that his interaction with the whole Chevre case was scummy if I think about it. However I am not seeing tunneling, didn't he vote Zinger and I?

That's what I understood from MoI anyway, I didn't ISO Pappums (or paid much attention to him for that matter). I think I will right now.

[Meransiel]

In honesty, I did to begin with, but frankly I keep getting the feeling he's more VI than Scum by this point..

@Banshee: See this? This is what I'm talking about. Relational tells galore .

[Meransiel]

Let me get this straight. You're claiming that Andrew is Town, despite his flip-flopping, and overall basically incomprehensible play?

Yup.

[Meransiel]

Btw, 2 things I would like to share with you guys:

1. Lynches are NOT for punishing bad play, they are for killing scum. Think about that.
2. Shotty is scum. 'nuff said. The only reason I won't unvote Silver and vote him is that the Andrew wagon is so terrifyingly large now that it needs all the counterwagon it can get.

[Meransiel]

PaTB makes a very cogent point on Meran re: Izak and Shotty.

Good work fellows!

Care to respond Meran?

Goomba mirrors the exact things said in the conversations before his posts. Shotty simply gives reads. Also, there are people who don't think shotty is scum - which IS an asset. Therefore, difference. Also, I didn't play with shotty before, so I wouldn't know.

[Meransiel]

To anyone who may be fucking around: I didn't say I don't know about shotty's reputation. I said I don't know about his playsyle.

[Meransiel]

Wait, shotty is Cop with guilty on Andrew? That's a bad thing.

VOTE: Andrew

[Meransiel]

So you know this guy has a reputation for being terrible/derpy-to-the-max.

You see him playing terribly/derped-to-the-max.

Your conclusion? LOLSCUM.

Yeahhhhhhhh,

realllllly

?

Yeahhhhhhh,

no

.

Nope. I know he has a reputation for being a cheating asshole. I didn't know his META was of a terrible/derpy to the max player. Try again.

[Meransiel]

Actually the whole day cop thing makes sense. You didn't jump on andrew until we were well into D2.

I concur.

[Meransiel]

That's wishful thinking.
Meh, just waiting on MoI here.

[Meransiel]

I DON'T FUCKING UNDERSTAND ANYTHING

[Meransiel]

I FUCKING UNDERSTAND EVEN LESS NOW.

[Meransiel]

Geez, if I didn't know you were town that'd be scummy.

I c what u did thar.

Ok this will sound VERY HYPOCRITICAL coming from me but can we stop with the fucking gambits?

[Meransiel]

And now, let's lynch scum that fucked his fakeclaim.

VOTE: Oversoul

I wanna hear the fat lady sing.

[Meransiel]

Rainbowdash, your Location entry creeps me out. But by pointing out the Oversoul slip, you get town points.

[Meransiel]

Oversoul is still alive? Meh, I'll try to be patient.

[Meransiel]

He's obvscum and nothing else needs to be said. THEN, getting rid of shotty is the bestest idea, because:

1. If he is scum, well you know.
2. If he is town then we have 3-4 confirmed innocents. He said he can't use the ability anymore so there's no waste.

So we have the game pretty much laid out. There's not much to discuss at this juncture. Or tomorrow.

[Meransiel]

He's obvscum and nothing else needs to be said. THEN, getting rid of shotty is the bestest idea, because:

1. If he is scum, well you know.
2. If he is town then we have 3-4 confirmed innocents. He said he can't use the ability anymore so there's no waste.

So we have the game pretty much laid out. There's not much to discuss at this juncture. Or tomorrow.

I haven't used all of my abilities.

Thank God for that.

[Meransiel]

Jason would be very mad if they were simply trolling.

From my own experience...because I bullshit and gambit as town a lot...mods usually don't care if someone is trolling.

[Meransiel]

Yay, day ends. Cool.

[Meransiel]

Sucks to be them I guess.

Vote: Shotty

So are we doing this?

[Meransiel]

Back from my V/LA. So how's it going?

[Meransiel]

Ok, done with my catching up. (no catch up wall though, as I didn't see much of importance)

Fourseen up my scum reads, however.

[Meransiel]

Yes. I used the term "up" cause he wasn't even in them before, given that I haven't been here for 10 days, and 10 days ago, Fourseen was nothing special.

[Meransiel]

Of the lynch pool (Silver, Jaka, Peregrine, Fourseen, Vezok) right now, how would you order them 1-5, 1 being scummiest?

Jaka is a town read of mine, though I must admit there's some gut there. I'm sticking to Silver scum whatever you say, though Fourseen is not looking any better (not much worse either, but anywhore).

As for Peregrine V, a short ISO of him didn't give me any new opinions, so I wouldn't risk pressing for a flip there either way.

As for Vezok, he's obvtown, seriously.

[Meransiel]

From what I gather, everyone agrees to a Fourseen lynch. So...dunno, let's go? I wanna be the hammer.

[Meransiel]

The response to that is probably a meager..."yes". Don't expect cases.

Also, what's with Mysterio?

[Meransiel]

So wait, are you saying that silver and Mysterio are unlikely to be scum together? That is all I need to know.
Now someone vote so I can hammer.

[Meransiel]

Shut up and vote your partner so we can win.

[Meransiel]

Hammah.

VOTE: FourseenCircumstance

Damn this felt so good.

[Meransiel]

The strength of town PRs this game was jawdroppingly weak.

Either way. Who shall we lynch?

[Meransiel]

Guys you think massclaiming tomorrow is a good idea? I would support it.

[Meransiel]

@Mod: I can't find my role PM. Probably erased it. Can you please resend it to me?

Forgot the flavor.

[Meransiel]

Still think Silver is scum.

Also, thanks to the mod for resending the PM.

[Meransiel]

Jack Bauer, VT.

Next is silver.

[Meransiel]

Given that we're all VT, a RLynch is as bad an idea as anything.

So who wants to kill izak?

[Meransiel]

Just cause you say you're a vanilla town doesn't mean you are, EVEN though you're not a goon. Rlynch means random lynch.

And if we come to the popcorn being irrelevant as everyone has claimed the same thing, I don't think your death is such a bad idea.

[Meransiel]

Meh, me too.

[Meransiel]

I want to be the hammer.

[Meransiel]

I want to be the hammer.

no.

Wait, why not?

[Meransiel]

I like hammering.

[Meransiel]

It ain't hurtin' no one.

[Meransiel]

Screw you guys I'm just BORED TO DEATH by this day. And Peregrined said he'd be done tonight or something.

[Meransiel]

super you're getting worse with every post...

MERANSIEL, HAMMER THAT SCUM!

No.

[Meransiel]

The thing is, the insistence with which silver urges you to lynch me (whom only suspect is/was silv) and Mysterio (??) can't be good for scum. And it's obvious it doesn't keep him alive, so he has to count on us seeing a town flip after the hammer.

Just my 2 cents. I'm not hammering.

[Meransiel]

This is Silver's meta.. he flips out under pressure.. this seems to be par for the course for him no matter what alignment.

If you know this happens regardless of meta, why are you so sure?

^ this

Also, didn't you say you WANTED to hammer him?

I changed my mind. Problem?

"Oh, we can't lynch Meran and Mysterio because scum-Silver wanted us to!"

THIS is the problem. I don't think it's a "we can't lynch x and y" scenario.

What are your thoughts on Peregrine's recent posts and/or lack thereof?

None until he posts again.

Why did you suggest an Izak lynch earlier?

I just don't like him. Also his organizing and helping with the popcorn looked forced.

though maybe he's just paranoid that I'd actually be listened to *shrug*

Yes, I am paranoid about this, I admit. So...why does that matter?

[Meransiel]

Yes, I know backing out at that point was risky exactly for those reasons. But that is how I felt I must deal with it. Scum simply don't post like that while in danger, and I had a change of perspective.

Did I also do it to protect myself? Yes, obviously, why wouldn't I? "getting killed as VT is not that big of a hassle and it's scummy to make a hassle out of it" only works when there are non-VT around, which is clearly not the case here.

The thing that made everything fail was, of course, that I didn't expect Vezokpiraka to hammer. That really obfuscated me. What DIDN'T, however, was the way DavidX just declared "I'm tunneling on you tomorrow bozo" just before the death scene.

VOTE: DavidX

And that's my stance. I don't agree with a Pere lynch, and obv not with a lynch on myself....which seem to be the other options.

[Meransiel]

Town should WANT to help town win, not act like they're doing us a big favour by offering content.

So...I didn't WANT to help town when I didn't hammer someone I didn't think was scum?

[Meransiel]

]PEdit: And for that matter, a complete reversal in stance between wanting to hammer then declaring the person is Scum is quite dodgy in itself.

Um..what? Sorry, I don't understand what you say here. Can you rephrase?

[Meransiel]

You did actually read my post and note that I was talking about Peregrine and not you, yeah?

From this, I'm getting the distinct impression that you are actually trying to make me look worse, instead of figuring out if I'm scum, and that you're not bothering to read my posts. I KNOW that was at Pere, but I am your second suspect, and I was calling you out for hypocrisy for giving a reason why he was scum, while at the same time not mentioning anything about how, by that same reason, I was less likely scum.

I don't regard OMGUS as a scumtell particularly but I'm surprised that you're engaging in it since I don't think it fits your general playstyle, at least in this game.

I'm not voting him BECAUSE he is voting me, I am voting him for the REASON why he is voting me. Stop defending the guy unless you have actual proof.

@Meransiel:

I didn't really understand what changed your mind so radically between (forgive the bad paraphrasing, this is just how I remember it): "I'm bored and screw you guys I don't want to wait for the VCA, let's lynch and I got the hammer" to "No, Silver is obvtown! We must stop!" I didn't see whatever it was you saw in his posts; to me it just looked like the typical WIFOM things scum throw out before death to me. Was it really just the threat to you?

I have already explained why twice, stop saying that I haven't. It's all about utilitarianism and foresight. A scum that can no longer save himself knows that everything he says will be taken as bullshit the following day. A townie knows that with him, the exact opposite will happen. So YES, by what I was doing, I was protecting myself. But I was also protecting silver, who to me looked like genuinely planning out the next day with knowledge of himself flipping town.

By the way, no lynch is a horrible idea. Neither me, nor David, nor Pere are going to die, so there's no gain from it.

[Meransiel]

Also, you didn't really answer about what you thought of Peregrine (or I missed it, which is possible). Can you answer that now please?

I'm null on Pere.

[Meransiel]

The quote you pulled out had nothing to do with you. I had already indicated I didn't want to vote you and that I was afraid I was suffering from confirmation bias in your case, which I KNOW is a problem I have and that I'm trying to work on. What you're insisting I should have done is the equivalent of saying, "Peregrine promised us content and then it was like pulling teeth to get any out of him, but that's not true of YOU, Meransiel, or YOU, Izak, or YOU, David, or YOU, etc, etc..." If I didn't say it about you then it probably doesn't apply to you; you didn't promise content at all so far as I know. Not promising content and then not delivering it is a nulltell quite literally. It is the absence of a tell. It reflects neither poorly nor well on you.

Here you're making a specification that you didn't make in the first post (I was not comparing the providing of contect required from the two of us. If I didn't clarify that well enough, then I am sorry). Call it taking out of context, but I was pressing on the "Town should WANT to help town win". Because it fit with my decision to not hammer anymore. I am actually going to, after this game ends, go to Mafia Discussion and post a thread named "When Town should vote/hammer someone regardless of their reads on him", giving this game as an example.

Fair enough, but it didn't really look like that.

Can you please explain how so?

I think David X is town, but it's just my opinion.

I know you think that. But since my wincon is "lynch all scum" and not "allow people to have erroneous opinions out of politeness", it's up to me to convince you that he's scum. To start it off, why do you think he's town?

I wanted a more detailed explanation.

This is a vastly different approach compared to how you actually asked me.

Are you aware that your playstyle has radically changed since Silver made that statement/threat? Like, 180 degrees of difference?

Of course. I don't want to get lynched, so I can't stand back while you guys have a vague null-town read on me and do the job yourselves. Especially since there are no more PRs.

For me, it's that change that has made me question my read of you as town, not your refusal to hammer, which I can somewhat understand.

Memory slipping....I can't really say right now if this is a lie or not, but as I recount you called me scummy for not hammering before I started playing differently. I will check and get back to this in a couple minutes.

He had some good will over the promised VCA but the whole behaviour surrounding it and the constant delays has completely destroyed that for me.

Nothing there really makes me think that Pere's scum.

A quick read of his ISO shows that after the Sotty lynch all he's done is stall and argue aginst lynches and NOT taken a single stance against anyone. This very much reeks of scum sitting back.

He's our lynch today.

In contrast, Izak has taken only stances of people and done little else. You regarding that as much better?

[Meransiel]

@Mod:

My second quote should be Beck's, not mine. Some edit pls pls?

Mod: Beck? lol he isn't nor has he been in this game

[Meransiel]

Meh, I want Meransiel to explain why he backed off so hard from Silver. I don't want to vote him without better reasons than I see right now.

Ah, here it is, found it. Would appear somewhere in between sitting on the fence and actually showing suspicion. But most importantly, it is from BEFORE I changed my playstyle.

[Meransiel]

Theoretical discussions aside, you still have not answered what I should have said about you in this case. I was not talking about you. Are you actually suggesting I should have stated that "Town should WANT to help town win, like MERANSIEL does?" RLY? SRSLY? I have no clue what you think I should have said here.

It's not logically wrong, what you said. I was pointing it out as scummy. In that perspective, it's not that you should've said something else. Much like I should have hammered despite my read, you'd have been better off not saying anything.

Can you please explain how so?

Because David threw a fit at you which I didn't agree with (ESPECIALLY since it was wrong and I was wrong too) and then you voted him right back. I don't think it's scummy, I just think it's weird given your previous play. If you had a reason other than not liking him accusing you, it wasn't evident to me and I didn't give a lot of credence to the "I don't like the WAY he accused me" because I've heard scum AND town say that before when OMGUSing and I'm sure everyone else has too.

Ok, reasonable enough. You still think that?

But since my wincon is "lynch all scum" and not "allow people to have erroneous opinions out of politeness", it's up to me to convince you that he's scum. To start it off, why do you think he's town?

You know better than this. I can't prove a negative. You even say so yourself later on about Peregrine, that you don't think that makes him not town. You didn't give awesome evidence that he's town. In short, I don't think David has done anything scummy. He thinks you're scum, I didn't consider you very likely scum until you started misrepresenting me left and right in what looks like a panic.

This is an outrageous downplay of your read on David. You don't think he's "not scummy", you outright state that he's town. Take a look at your own ISO if you're confused about this. Also, I didn't give awesome evidence that pere is scum because I'm null on him.

This is a vastly different approach compared to how you actually asked me.

Meh, I want Meransiel to explain why he backed off so hard from Silver. I don't want to vote him without better reasons than I see right now.

Yes, I can see how you'd find that a horrible horrible accusation that you're scummy and terrible. Because I don't think that's a good enough reason to vote you. Because I wanted you to explain more rather than just sheeping a vote on you I wasn't really agreeing with. HOW is that vastly different?

Nope, "I want player x to explain why y" and "I want player x to explain in more detail why y" are vastly different. The first implies that player x is making unfounded accusations, therefore blame is thrown on him, whereas the second implies that the questioner does not follow player x' line of thought, which means nobody is to blame.

That's me saying I don't wanna vote you for not hammering Silver. You GET THAT, right? So how is it fence sitting and expressing suspicion all at once in a lovely scumtastic ball?

Wait, so saying that whether you will vote or not vote someone depends on how he responds to a question, then not liking the answer, then STILL not voting said person is NOT fencesitting? Either I've been living under a rock, or you're just the kind of person who never admits being wrong. Cause screaming "misrepresentation! mischaracterisation! panic!" is much, MUCH easier.

It hurts me that you are obvtown, really. I mean, the only reason why I don't simply give up and let you lynch me just to see how wrong and convoluted you've been after the flip is that there must be SOMEONE there opposing a pere lynch.

And hey, I'm Banshee. As Jason pointed out, Beck isn't even IN this game.

Obvious typo is obvious and not relevant to the discussion.

[Meransiel]

A quick read of his ISO shows that after the Sotty lynch all he's done is stall and argue aginst lynches and NOT taken a single stance against anyone. This very much reeks of scum sitting back.

He's our lynch today.

In contrast, Izak has taken only stances of people and done little else. You regarding that as much better?

Yes. TownIzak taking a stance and scumhunting looks 100x better thn scumPere stalling and NOT scumhunting.

I can hardly see Izak as actually, properly scumhunting.

[Meransiel]

Oh k. Now I'm going to put the argument with Banshee to a halt, given that it doesn't help us any. And surmise everything with a single question.

@Banshee: Do you think that scum David X would NOT benefit from, as you say, having the same reasoning and lines of thought as you?

[Meransiel]

@Banshee: No that I not what I meant. It is merely coincidental that David X had the same reasoning and lines of thought and suspects as you. He never sheeped this game. What I SAID is that he never had any opinion that would hurt him as scum.

[Meransiel]

Just look at all scum lynch wagons and you will see what I mean.

[Meransiel]

@Meransiel if you had to choose someone to get lynched RIGHT NOW, who would it be?

DavidX, naturally.

@D: Shotty and Oversoul were obvscum at the time of their deaths, so that's irrelevant. I don't really believe in bussing at face value, so that's null for me. I was just challenging Banshee's town read on you down to null.

[Meransiel]

Today is making me think more and more that Meransiel is scum. The whole challenging-Banshee's-townread thing looks like an attempt to get two townies to distrust each other.

How exactly can I get someone to VOTE my suspect if they distrust him.

By the way. This is not mylo, because we have 2 anti-town factions.

[Meransiel]

@Meran I'm not sure I understand the question

And I'd say we have an SK out their, as well as a couple of Mafiosi. We could be headed towards a dilemma if we don't catch the SK. Which is why we should lynch Peregrine.

No, I MEAN scum can properly scumhunt, so it's null. Basically, we shouldn't have towntells.

[Meransiel]

When I'm playing as scum (at least, in the short period before the townies break the game - which happened both times) I just try to scumhunt as usual, attacking my partners whenever I would attack them if I was town. Just an FYI.

Ok, now I'm a little confused. Do you think DX is town or null?

[Meransiel]

There is 100% at least 1 SK and 2 mafia left.

[Meransiel]

Don't be obtuse. Of COURSE Peregrine is the SK. It was in shotty's best interest to disclose him. But he doesn't have a kill, so lynching him is a waste of time. Actually, he should be the ONLY one we can't lynch today.

[Meransiel]

It defeats the point of asking a question if the question is stupid.

[Meransiel]

Guys, guys, come the hell on. You don't have the most TANGENT understanding of MOTIVE.

Scum would never back off a hammer after they decided to hammer. Especially since the victim is not believed by anybody.
Serial Killers would never expend shots cautiously.
Scum WOULD stick themselves to a single event descriptive of someone's faux scum alignment and drill him to the ground.

I mean, think about it for a second. If David flips town, I'm like almost confirmed scum. But if I flip town, he's right back where he was.

Mafia doesn't play to "save face" unless they are being suspected by a sizable minority. Because it puts them at needless risk. That said,

@Jakalope: Why do you think DX is scum?

[Meransiel]

Oh, and note how the person who's saying there are two Scum groups (despite no evidence of it), and therefore it not being MyLo(Which if there aren't two Scum groups, it is most likely) is the person advocating lynching me, because when I flip Town, he's guarenteed scum. And if he's lying about there being two scum groups (Which I'd put money on), then he wins by mislynching me.

1. Stop smoking mushrooms. You are setup speculating, I am not, I am merely presenting the situation as it is.
2. The religious kills cannot be from a vig, since a vig would be town and wouldn't lie saying he is a VT. Since no vig died so far, the existence of a SK is obvious.
3. I still don't understand why you are talking about cults.

[Meransiel]

I mean, think about it for a second. If David flips town, I'm like almost confirmed scum.

What are you suggesting? You and Xanatos go 1v1? I'll go for it if we can lynch you first.

It doesn't go both ways. If I flip town, that doesn't make Xanatos scum. So no.

[Meransiel]

David Xanatos will not die tonight. Furthermore, since there WILL be 2 mafia tomorrow, tomorrow WILL be mylo. So my death IS the end of the game.
And since I can't count on you not lynching me tomorrow, the only way I can conceivably break this is by Pere not dying today.

So you guys have a couple options in front of you, which are:

1. Lynch David X.
2. Lynch me, and promise that if I flip town you will lynch David X tomorrow.
3. Lynch Pere and lose the game.
4. Lynch someone that is not one of us. This has weird consequences and thus I can neither say it is a good nor bad idea.
5. No lynch and lose the game.

So what will it be?
And DX, for your information, SK IS an anti-town faction. Just cause it's called a faction doesn't mean it must have more than 1 member.

[Meransiel]

Okay. Show me an SK with X-Shots.

See? This is stupid setup speculation. I don't ask myself whether a Mafia Vig or an x-shot SK is more probable. I simply have this simple, proven fact in front of me: shotty said Pere is SK, and shotty is scum. Therefore, Pere is NOT scum.

@izak: rhetorical question. If you DO no lynch tomorrow, will you still lynch me the day after tomorrow? Regardless of the "reduced pool of suspects"? Of course! So that's why your idea is pointless.

[Meransiel]

Are you serious?

Shotty would want to out an SK instantly, because they tend to be BP.

However, by claiming someone's an SK, and if those kills stopped, he then looks like he was trying to cause a mislynch, giving that person some Town-Cred.

Therefore, a Mafia Vig would be covered because of the kills stopping, and the supposition that Shotty was lying.

That's too much of a risk to take. If people DID say "yeah, let's lynch the SK" and actually lynched Pere, and he flipped scum, they would say "hey, Shotty lied to us, lynch all liars!"

So what YOU are proposing is a scum plan that has, as best result, 1 scum getting killed and 1 scum getting towncred, and as worst result, 2 scum getting killed and nothing gained, while what I am proposing is a scum plan that has, as best result, getting rid of an opposed SK, and as worst result, 1 scum getting killed AND 1 SK getting killed.

Plus, and this is probably much more important, shotty is too selfish to agree to the plan you described.

Jakalope, please don't hammer.

[Meransiel]

People, I'm CERTAIN a Pere lynch is game over for us. I'd do anything to prevent it.

And yes, that includes voting myself.

[Meransiel]

Learn to read you idiot. Or, rather, be a bitch and read this simple chronology, which I've already posted but you were too high to spot:

Day 9 - Pere dies. SK. 2 scum left, 5 town left.

Night 9 - random town (probably Banshee) dies. 2 scum left, 4 town left.

Day 10 - I die. Game over, since it is 2 scum 3 town and 1 more town dies at night.

[Meransiel]

Seriously, nobody is going to jump straight in and lynch you at LyLo.

I do not believe in the validity of this sentence.

[Meransiel]

Since this is a large, pere's most likely BP. Therefore if he DOES have a shot held back, which I DON'T think he has, he can afford to wait until he is sure he will hit scum with it.

Because in this situation, for a SK, optimal play is to get rid of the mafia.

[Meransiel]

No, actually, it's not optimal. It's obligatory. If pere is SK and shoots town, he instantly loses. And he knows it.

[Meransiel]

@Banshee: All I am saying is that Pere is 100% not mafia. I would be surprised if he was town, but not shocked. And we SHOULD concentrate on mafia and only on mafia.

A Jakalope lynch sounds like a wildcard that can go both ways, so I'm not really sure what to think.

[Meransiel]

He could have been trying to gain town cred by bussing one of his own,

Impossible. If he wanted that he would've said Pere is Mafia Vig directly.

[Meransiel]

Hey rager, you think Jackalope is scum?

[Meransiel]

Well as I said already, SK IS a faction.

[Meransiel]

You are so FUCKING ANNOYING!!!!

I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT THERE BEING 2 SCUM TEAMS

I NEVER EVEN SAID ANYTHING ABOUT THERE BEING 2 ANTITOWN TEAMS

A FACTION IS NOT A FUCKING TEAM, IT CAN HAVE 1 MEMBER.

Gah....forget it, I'll just go to bed before I get homicidal.

Mod: Calm the language, please.

[Meransiel]

Life lesson.

I will NEVER claim the hammer ever again.

[Meransiel]

You guys still think my play was shitty?
I don't. I was well aware of what I was doing and I created as much WIFOM as possible. Thus almost all real scum reads could become arguable and town had to lynch way more blindly than if I had just died quietly. Thanks Jason for modding. I had the most fun I've ever had in this game.

No, you played really well. I bow my fedora to you good sir.

[Meransiel]

I want to say I'm sorry for guessing the setting wrong, particularly apologize to PeregrineV for calling him a SK. I would also like to applaud Banshee for pitting us into an unwinnable scenario.

Because it WAS unwinnable. If I managed to make izak and Jakalope think straight and help me lynch David, then I would've been the obvious night kill, since David's death would make be obvtown. And AFTER that, there would've been nobody alive with even the slightest suspicion of Banshee, ensuring victory.

Yup, entirely deserved win. Cheers.

[Meransiel]

You ponies still need to explain why you lynched somepony you thought was a SK though in that situation because it would likely end the game for the town by giving scum the win, best case put town in lylo from there on out. SK would have needed to work with town to an extent to not be endgamed themselves. Also the whole point of it would have needed to require Peregrine to be blocked N1, not N2, and then scum not realize he was making the other kill, which admittedly I missed at first too, but bleh.

That is exactly what I was trying to tell them, except with less calm and more shouting.

[Meransiel]

I know how it is to get headaches from being unable to find replacements. I probably wouldn't cope with 3 people dropping in the same game (which is why I'll never do Larges, snatch)

[Meransiel]

Would've been nice, but...I am better at finding scum than at making people trust me.

Also, me and izak never listen to each other - Rule. We just pretend from time to time.

[Meransiel]

NINJA'D: directed at glow