TV Mafia Game Over - Scum Win

[Meransiel]

NINJA'D

@Vig: No, don't worry about it, vigging goomba is ALWAYS a good idea. Trust me.

[ThAdmiral]

Had a look at izak. He hasn't really contributed much but he has said who he thinks are scum and who he thinks are town a few times. He seems ok so far.

@ everyone voting zinger: Do you people really believe he is scum? If not you are going for a

cop-out, sub-optimal lynch

.


Admittedly my vote on junpei is arguably sub-optimal as well.

unvote

Just checked out pine. He has posted 41 times in other games since his last post in this game.

41 times.

vote: pine

My other current top suspects are marco (slight scum-tell from 223 in which he gets cold feet due to the sudden speed of the vifam wagon, but doesn't unvote), and silverdrummer (mainly for his arguments against MoI), but they aren't very strong reads.

[Zinger2099]

I don't care if MS.net is supposedly the best mafia forums around, the people here (and I know I am generalizing, there are obvious people here who don't fit that persona) have given me a horrible first impression of it. Just because you are a member of the most prestigious mafia forums and you've been here for years and can quote theory out the wazoo doesn't make you any better than the noob who started playing his first game 2 hours ago. I'm not just talking for myself either, as I usually don't care when somebody is a dick to me, but I can't stand watching people 'bully' others.

/disagree

This isn't strictly game relevant, but it needs to be said. If you start playing soccer, and kick the ball into the wrong goalposts, you are "doing it wrong", and any other player would be justified in getting angry at you for it. It's the same situation here. Obviously, there is a greater variety of ways that you can play mafia than many other games, but the reality is that, from a theory standpoint, certain modes of play are far superior (in the sense of likely to advance a win con) than others.

The "it's just a game" excuse really doesn't wash when you take into account the fact that for those of us who have a serious commitment to this game, it can be something like three hours a day stretching over a period of months per game. Surely you can see why we get annoyed when we see a newcomer not taking the game seriously and, effectively, causing us to waste our time. It's not that the people on MS.net are more arrogant or bullying, it's that we take the game far more seriously than other sites.

/disagree

There is a distinct difference between telling someone they are doing something wrong, and being an arrogant asshole. In your soccer example, sure the teammates might be miffed that one of their team kicked the ball into the wrong goal, but they aren't going to throw that teammate to the ground and kick him and say "I don't ever want to play soccer with you again," nor will they go to the referee and say "can you kick him off the team because he kicked the ball into the wrong goal?"

That is not taking the game more seriously, that's being an asshole.

[Zinger2099]

3) Rodion, does claiming JK, a ROLEBLOCKER, make any sense as town?

Sorry, but are you actually using a role-argument to insinuate alignment?

Even if I had claimed full on Roleblocker, what difference would it make? Just because it might be more commonly a scum role, doesn't mean it is in this game.

That's a terrible argument.

[Zinger2099]

And for the record, the Jailkeeper role was originally created as a fix to the Doctor (to prevent the powerful Doc-Cop combo), so while it does Roleblock people, it spawned from the Doctor, not the Roleblocker. I don't see how being a Jailkeeper makes you more likely to be scum in any way.

[Zinger2099]

Raising the 'possibility' of a gambit is an enormous stretch. Zinger hasn't claimed it was a gambit, and the way he has dealt with it (repeated backflips, anger and now contrition) are completely at odds with gambiting behaviour. Also, you ignore the prospect that this is actually a gambit from zinger-scum

Actually I did claim it was a gambit. Just saying.

[Zinger2099]

@ZeL1nK, can you sum up why this Izak character is scummy? I am looking at his ISO now and nothing is catching my eye.

[ThAdmiral]

@ zinger: full claim with flavor pls?

[Meransiel]

And for the record, the Jailkeeper role was originally created as a fix to the Doctor (to prevent the powerful Doc-Cop combo), so while it does Roleblock people, it spawned from the Doctor, not the Roleblocker. I don't see how being a Jailkeeper makes you more likely to be scum in any way.

Jailkeeper CAN'T be a scum role. So claiming jailkeeper is opportunistically scummy. Not saying that you are, just giving my general opinion.

[David Xanatos]

It could be a cover for a standard Roleblocker, all it would require is Scum not targetting that person with any kills that night, and if the person is vigged, claiming assassin shot or similar. Otherwise it would explain why someone was Roleblocked..

That's a fairly sizable could though.. I'm basically thinking out loud here.

[ZeL1nK]

Had a look at izak. He hasn't really contributed much but he has said who he thinks are scum and who he thinks are town a few times. He seems ok so far.

@ZeL1nK, can you sum up why this Izak character is scummy? I am looking at his ISO now and nothing is catching my eye.

When I initially developed a scum read on him, it was after his comment about vollkan's style of scum hunting, which started setting off alarms. I found it quite funny that he was criticising someone's method of scum hunting when he had done

absolutely no scum hunting himself

. At the time, he had his vote on Vifam because "But Vifam really sticks out like a sore thumb here, and is still a few votes off of lynching". No reasoning as to why he found Vifam suspicious, just that Vifam stuck out like a sore thumb. Vote stays on Vifam for the rest of the early game while making a few comments here and there.

My major problem with izak is something you can't catch from skimming through his ISO because you're not looking at his posts contextually. He ignores a lot of the things that are happening in this game, and comments only on the popular bandwagons (Vifam first, Meransiel second, Zinger third). For example, all of his posts where he talks about Zinger after he votes for him are posts in which he's ignoring a large amount of discussion that's going on in the game, ignoring people's suspicions of him, etc.

Jailkeeper CAN'T be a scum role.

Er, yes it can. It's probably rarer, but I've seen it before.

It could be a cover for a standard Roleblocker

Not really likely, considering Zinger knows the last game Jason ran had both a mafia roleblocker and a town jailer, I doubt he'd use jailer as a fakeclaim. I doubt he'd even get into the position where he'd need to use it as a fakeclaim unnecessarily, as well.

[David Xanatos]

As I said, basically thinking out loud. I've been criticised in the past for essentially holding back and keeping anything short of solid reads to myself, so I'm trying to be a little more open.. if at times that makes me sound like I'm putting out obvious/unlikely thoughts, so be it.. it's what runs through my head.

[Meransiel]

Jailkeeper CAN'T be a scum role.

Er, yes it can. It's probably rarer, but I've seen it before..

Um...lol? Unless town had a rolecop, the moderator probably overdosed on opium when making the setup.

[Pinky and the Brain]

Jailkeeper CAN'T be a scum role.

Er, yes it can. It's probably rarer, but I've seen it before..

Um...lol? Unless town had a rolecop, the moderator probably overdosed on opium when making the setup.

...

Mafia Jailkeepers are

explicitly

allowed in Mini Normals. Why wouldn't they be allowed/possible in a Large Theme?

In fact, YOU'VE PLAYED IN A LARGE THEME GAME WITH A SCUM JAILKEEPER (admittedly you replaced out, BUT STILL)

Merans, can you post examples of you sitting out Day 1? Cause you diddin't do it in Super Hero Revolution OR SEMG, both of which are Larges I've played with you in.

Rodion: Yeah, Lyncher seems fairly rare on this site.

-diddin

[On Page 16,] Pinky blatantly lying. Scumpoints.

...

That's down to fucking difference in opinion (or possibly mis-remembering), not lying.

Don't like pinky's second-last part of the post due to relational tells. Chevre's post DOES look like the wall post a lurker scum would make. Scumpoints, invalidated if Chevre is town. However, invalidated=/= town, and his lazy vote on izak proves me right.

The point I was making wrt Zinger-Chevre was a possible scum-slip from Zinger (obviously I was trying to approach it subtly) - in hind-sight, pappums' interpretation of a town-slip is more logical.

How the hell is my izak vote 'lazy' when I made a case?

Cognitive dissonance from joking about jesters and then calling people stupid for talking about jesters. Probably caused by me (correctly) calling out his intent behind his first post.

I was quite obviously joking when talking about Jesters, while Junpei was not. The way I see it the two are (quite obviously) completely separate.

They aren't separate at all. If I made a (distateful) joke about how much I hated Jews but then told my anti-semitic friend that his views were stupid, that's cognitive dissonance (and hypocrisy).

He can't provide any scum-reads, even though he's voting for Meransiel?

Not strictly true, I just haven't put my reads into a list.

You were asked for your top 3 scum-reads, and you weren't even able to provide your top scum-read.

izak, do you have a top three scumreads? I'd like to see them if you do.

@thepersonwhoicantrememberwhoaskedmeformyscumreads I'm slightly struggling to keep up after arriving late. I will get back to you on this though.

Of all the people to randomly give a read on, Chevre, who has made just 2 posts with content?

There was some focus on Chevre at that point. I was just making my stance known; how can that EVER be scummy?

Oooooh, nice selective quoting.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: izak

I already addressed this.

Of all the people to randomly give a read on, Chevre, who has made just 2 posts with content?

It just smacks of scum trying to look like they are providing reads without actually providing any reads at all.

Your additional excuse of "lolfocus on Chevre" doesn't cut it, as there was equally as much focus (read: not that much) on 3IF, silverdrummer and Zinger, and

more

focus on Meransiel and LeonShade.

Zinger - why should I (or anybody else) trust you to play to your win-con (if you're town or 3rd party), given you've already made it clear you're not opposed to doing stupid things

just to see what happens

?

Spoiler: Non-Game Related: Zinger v vollkan

I don't care if MS.net is supposedly the best mafia forums around, the people here (and I know I am generalizing, there are obvious people here who don't fit that persona) have given me a horrible first impression of it. Just because you are a member of the most prestigious mafia forums and you've been here for years and can quote theory out the wazoo doesn't make you any better than the noob who started playing his first game 2 hours ago. I'm not just talking for myself either, as I usually don't care when somebody is a dick to me, but I can't stand watching people 'bully' others.

/disagree

This isn't strictly game relevant, but it needs to be said. If you start playing soccer, and kick the ball into the wrong goalposts, you are "doing it wrong", and any other player would be justified in getting angry at you for it. It's the same situation here. Obviously, there is a greater variety of ways that you can play mafia than many other games, but the reality is that, from a theory standpoint, certain modes of play are far superior (in the sense of likely to advance a win con) than others.

The "it's just a game" excuse really doesn't wash when you take into account the fact that for those of us who have a serious commitment to this game, it can be something like three hours a day stretching over a period of months per game. Surely you can see why we get annoyed when we see a newcomer not taking the game seriously and, effectively, causing us to waste our time. It's not that the people on MS.net are more arrogant or bullying, it's that we take the game far more seriously than other sites.

/disagree

There is a distinct difference between telling someone they are doing something wrong, and being an arrogant asshole. In your soccer example, sure the teammates might be miffed that one of their team kicked the ball into the wrong goal, but they aren't going to throw that teammate to the ground and kick him and say "I don't ever want to play soccer with you again," nor will they go to the referee and say "can you kick him off the team because he kicked the ball into the wrong goal?"

That is not taking the game more seriously, that's being an asshole.

/agrees with vollkan

It's the World Cup. Player X's team has been awarded a penalty kick, and the score is 0-0.

Player X steps up to take the penalty, but decides to take it with his eyes closed to see what happens - because he's always wanted to do that, but he doesn't want to tarnish his club perfect penalty record - which is why now, at the World Cup, is the perfect opportunity. He's never really cared about international football anyway.

This is essentially your justification:

I use these forums to do all the stupid things I would never consider doing on the other forums where I play mafia so that I can see first hand why doing that is a bad idea without screwing with my rep on the site that I take the game seriously.

Player X runs, slips and (in his blind flailing) only manages a weak contact with the side of the ball. The ball harmlessly wobbles out for a goal kick.

Player X's international team-mates would be COMPLETELY JUSTIFIED in getting fucking furious with him.

~ Hoppster

[Zinger2099]

@ zinger: full claim with flavor pls?

I am a reformed criminal. After being hit by a car and my wife leaving me for another man I discovered the value of Karma, and decided to change my life by making a list of things I needed to do to atone for my past behaviour. It doesn't really explain why I am a jailkeeper.

Jailkeeper CAN'T be a scum role. So claiming jailkeeper is opportunistically scummy. Not saying that you are, just giving my general opinion.

Yes it can. Why would you say that it can't?

When I initially developed a scum read on him, it was after his comment about vollkan's style of scum hunting, which started setting off alarms. I found it quite funny that he was criticising someone's method of scum hunting when he had done

absolutely no scum hunting himself

. At the time, he had his vote on Vifam because "But Vifam really sticks out like a sore thumb here, and is still a few votes off of lynching". No reasoning as to why he found Vifam suspicious, just that Vifam stuck out like a sore thumb. Vote stays on Vifam for the rest of the early game while making a few comments here and there.

My major problem with izak is something you can't catch from skimming through his ISO because you're not looking at his posts contextually. He ignores a lot of the things that are happening in this game, and comments only on the popular bandwagons (Vifam first, Meransiel second, Zinger third). For example, all of his posts where he talks about Zinger after he votes for him are posts in which he's ignoring a large amount of discussion that's going on in the game, ignoring people's suspicions of him, etc.

Good enough for me.

vote: izakthegoomba

.

Zinger - why should I (or anybody else) trust you to play to your win-con (if you're town or 3rd party), given you've already made it clear you're not opposed to doing stupid things

just to see what happens

?

You (or anybody else) shouldn't trust me. I have done nothing to offset the lies that I have made, or things I have said. I fully expect to be lynched for my actions.

Of course, just because you shouldn't trust me, doesn't make me the best choice for a lynch at this moment. What is worse, the person who admits to having lied as part of a failed gambit, or the one who is still currently lying to your face in order to kill you later?

Spoiler: Non-Game Related: Zinger v vollkan

I don't care if MS.net is supposedly the best mafia forums around, the people here (and I know I am generalizing, there are obvious people here who don't fit that persona) have given me a horrible first impression of it. Just because you are a member of the most prestigious mafia forums and you've been here for years and can quote theory out the wazoo doesn't make you any better than the noob who started playing his first game 2 hours ago. I'm not just talking for myself either, as I usually don't care when somebody is a dick to me, but I can't stand watching people 'bully' others.

/disagree

This isn't strictly game relevant, but it needs to be said. If you start playing soccer, and kick the ball into the wrong goalposts, you are "doing it wrong", and any other player would be justified in getting angry at you for it. It's the same situation here. Obviously, there is a greater variety of ways that you can play mafia than many other games, but the reality is that, from a theory standpoint, certain modes of play are far superior (in the sense of likely to advance a win con) than others.

The "it's just a game" excuse really doesn't wash when you take into account the fact that for those of us who have a serious commitment to this game, it can be something like three hours a day stretching over a period of months per game. Surely you can see why we get annoyed when we see a newcomer not taking the game seriously and, effectively, causing us to waste our time. It's not that the people on MS.net are more arrogant or bullying, it's that we take the game far more seriously than other sites.

/disagree

There is a distinct difference between telling someone they are doing something wrong, and being an arrogant asshole. In your soccer example, sure the teammates might be miffed that one of their team kicked the ball into the wrong goal, but they aren't going to throw that teammate to the ground and kick him and say "I don't ever want to play soccer with you again," nor will they go to the referee and say "can you kick him off the team because he kicked the ball into the wrong goal?"

That is not taking the game more seriously, that's being an asshole.

/agrees with vollkan

It's the World Cup. Player X's team has been awarded a penalty kick, and the score is 0-0.

Player X steps up to take the penalty, but decides to take it with his eyes closed to see what happens - because he's always wanted to do that, but he doesn't want to tarnish his club perfect penalty record - which is why now, at the World Cup, is the perfect opportunity. He's never really cared about international football anyway.

This is essentially your justification:

I use these forums to do all the stupid things I would never consider doing on the other forums where I play mafia so that I can see first hand why doing that is a bad idea without screwing with my rep on the site that I take the game seriously.

Player X runs, slips and (in his blind flailing) only manages a weak contact with the side of the ball. The ball harmlessly wobbles out for a goal kick.

Player X's international team-mates would be COMPLETELY JUSTIFIED in getting fucking furious with him.

~ Hoppster

In your given example, yes the team-mates would be furious. But this is hardly the World Cup of Mafia games. This is backyard soccer at best. I hope you can appreciate how your example is hardly consistent with the circumstances. I say again: sure the teammates might be miffed that one of their team kicked the ball into the wrong goal, but they aren't going to throw that teammate to the ground and kick him and say "I don't ever want to play soccer with you again," nor will they go to the referee and say "can you kick him off the team because he kicked the ball into the wrong goal?" You won't see that behaviour in any kind of soccer game, not even professional ones. I have seen that kind of behaviour here.

[Meransiel]

Mafia Jailkeepers are

explicitly

allowed in Mini Normals. Why wouldn't they be allowed/possible in a Large Theme?

In fact, YOU'VE PLAYED IN A LARGE THEME GAME WITH A SCUM JAILKEEPER (admittedly you replaced out, BUT STILL)

Multiscum game. I rest my case.

That's down to fucking difference in opinion (or possibly mis-remembering), not lying.

As a side point or a passing reference, maybe. But when you use forged meta to make someone look suspicious, it's not

fucking

difference in opinion. Nor misremembering. It's just that - using forged meta to make someone look suspicious.

The point I was making wrt Zinger-Chevre was a possible scum-slip from Zinger (obviously I was trying to approach it subtly) - in hind-sight, pappums' interpretation of a town-slip is more logical.

How the hell is my izak vote 'lazy' when I made a case?

I understand the point you were trying to make. I didn't disprove it or anything, that's not the way relational tells work.
Your vote on izak IS lazy because:
1. izak gives enough material to make a case on anyway
2. izak does not defend himself properly

[Meransiel]

Yes it can. Why would you say that it can't?.

Because...*facepalms*...scum need only roleblock people. Not protect them. Unless one mafia jails another in order to protect him from a SK or something.

[Junpei]

3) Rodion, does claiming JK, a ROLEBLOCKER, make any sense as town?

Sorry, but are you actually using a role-argument to insinuate alignment?

Even if I had claimed full on Roleblocker, what difference would it make? Just because it might be more commonly a scum role, doesn't mean it is in this game.

That's a terrible argument.

I was talking about third party JKs. We were already on the topic of you being third party, and I said that you weren't just claiming survivor, you were claiming a roleblocking third party, which is bad.

[Zinger2099]

Yes it can. Why would you say that it can't?.

Because...*facepalms*...scum need only roleblock people. Not protect them. Unless one mafia jails another in order to protect him from a SK or something.

*facepalms*

I have been in games where scum had protective roles. Scum can need protection, from becoming Vig targets.

[Junpei]

@ everyone voting zinger: Do you people really believe he is scum? If not you are going for a

cop-out, sub-optimal lynch

.

Nice way to twist everything to make it seem like Zinger is a bad lynch and that those voting him are going for a 'cop out'. I stand by this lynch as I do think he is either scum or third party, this is not a cop-out and this is not a sub-optimal lynch. He has fullclaimed and I am still ready to lynch him.

Also we can stop talking about game setup theory as we aren't going to outguess the mod this early on.

[PeregrineV]

@Meran- I think you asked me why I voted DavidX. Probably the same reason you did. Iso up to 20 looks too noncommittal, esp. for day1. Also, good chkballin summary. It's gotten better with 23+, so I'll probably unvote when better comes along.

@Junepei- I'm glad for the pickup in activity, but Zingers got 14 of 16 votes now. Continuing in the same vein post after post if not scummy is really unproductive. It also leads me to the questions: Do you think Zinger is scum? If so, who are his partners? If not, why are you trying to lynch him?

In general, I see the arguements against Izak, but am going to trust Meran in this that this is how he plays (for now).

Agree with Pine=bad, but think he'd care more if he were scum. So I'd rather wait for replacement.

Can't believe that all 4 lurkers are town, but everyone seems to have their reads out pretty early. maybe I'll just go cross-index them. Won't that be fun...

[Meransiel]

Yes it can. Why would you say that it can't?.

Because...*facepalms*...scum need only roleblock people. Not protect them. Unless one mafia jails another in order to protect him from a SK or something.

*facepalms*

I have been in games where scum had protective roles. Scum can need protection, from becoming Vig targets.

Mafia doctor =/= Mafia jailkeeper.

You do realize that if a scum team is reduced to 2 players, one of them a jailer, and decides to use his protect, they basically lose their night kill?


PEDIT: Ok, thanks, I'm cool with that, PV.

[Meransiel]

Junpei, you're a dedicated little kid. But, since I couldn't have said it better...

But you don't lynch a claimed Town PR Day 1 no matter how bad their play is.

[Zinger2099]

Yes it can. Why would you say that it can't?.

Because...*facepalms*...scum need only roleblock people. Not protect them. Unless one mafia jails another in order to protect him from a SK or something.

*facepalms*

I have been in games where scum had protective roles. Scum can need protection, from becoming Vig targets.

Mafia doctor =/= Mafia jailkeeper.

You do realize that if a scum team is reduced to 2 players, one of them a jailer, and decides to use his protect, they basically lose their night kill?

So? there are plenty of roles that generally become harder to use/useless for scum once they are reduced to 2 or 1 player. At that point, the jailkeeper basically just becomes a roleblocker. There's nothing weird or wrong about that.

[Junpei]

@Junepei- I'm glad for the pickup in activity, but Zingers got 14 of 16 votes now. Continuing in the same vein post after post if not scummy is really unproductive. It also leads me to the questions: Do you think Zinger is scum? If so, who are his partners? If not, why are you trying to lynch him?

First of all, he has 12 votes. So he's at L-2. Secondly, the main topic of conversation still seems to be him as people have popped up that are against this lynch, so I've had to defend the idea. It is not counterproductive if I believe that the lynch is a good one. Secondly, of course I think Zinger is scum/third party, where do I say that he is town? Nowhere. I think it's too early to determine his partners if he has any, I really can't tell you that, I need to analyze the situation more and it isn't something I can do before Zinger dies d1.

Junpei, you're a dedicated little kid. But, since I couldn't have said it better...

But you don't lynch a claimed Town PR Day 1 no matter how bad their play is.

That quote is wrong, his claim is not of the same nature as mine, I've already said that before. Also Meran we're at the point where we either out a 4th town person claim or we lynch one of three we already have. I certainly don't believe I'm the correct answer, and between ZeL1nK and Zinger I much prefer Zinger. In fact, I'd lynch Zinger even if those weren't my two options.

Also notice how Zinger is derailing the thread with you, this topic of game theory this early is worthless.