Mini 1075 - Fishtown Mafia

[Lrdwhyt]

vote Corvuus

The fact that the FA lynch didn't happen and no lynch was allowed to happen makes me think it is even more likely FA/Corvuus is scum and his buddies didn't vote for him to allow a no-lynch to happen.

{havingfitz, lrdwhyt, cruelty, nocmen, DP} - there are definitely scum here for allowing the mislynch to happen, whatever corvuus' allignment is.

Makes sense if Corvuus is scum, but it doesn't say much of anything at all if he's innocent. And for the record, I didn't realize deadline was so close/had passed until I read the end day post. That, and I didn't much like the fallen_angel case, and likely would've abstained.

Incognito: If town wanted to lynch FA then surely regardless of FA's alignment scum wanted him to live.

That...doesn't make much sense. If scum wanted anyone who town wanted to lynch alive, then they'd be fighting against every lynch that happens.

Unvote

- I've read another game that Singer is in and I'm no longer convinced she's scum. (I think its playstyle)

Vote: Lrd

You are all over the place with your votes.

I've voted two players today. That's hardly "all over the place".

Do you have a reason for voting Lrdwhyt?

He's a lurking liar.

What are you talking about?

Anywho, fallen angel seems like he has the best shot of getting lynched

As deadline was approaching, Empking and fallen angel were both tied at L-3. Incognito broke that tie by voting fallen angel, saying that he was more likely to be lynched...not true, as they were tied, and Adumbro followed. If Empking is scum, then Incognito probably is as well. If fallen angel is scum, Incognito probably is innocent, unless both Empking/fallen angel are scum.

Going to say that the lack of a scum hammering fallen_angel doesn't look good for Corvuus, but it definitely doesn't guarantee that he's scum. Although, I also thought that him stating Rhinox scumslipped, but not following up was strange, but he was already voting someone else for a "scumslip", so again, not a great indicator of lack of innocence.

I disagree with you. While Empking might have thought he could have eventually got the town to agree with him and he might even think mass claiming is the best strategy, he didn't even try to back up his proposal with solid reasoning or really try to convince anyone. That tells me the proposal was more of a "kick start the game" type of proposal, rather than an earnest proposal. I mean, do you really think scum goes "oh hai mass claim time we should do it because its the best plan because it is" and just expects everyone to follow along without question? That'd be naive for empking to think that, and its lazy scumhunting to think that makes empking scum.

No, go back and read. He did repeatedly say that massclaiming was a good idea, after the first time, making it sound like a genuine proposal rather than just a reaction test type thing.

see, right here. So you're saying you expect scum to keep arguing for an unpopular course of action that has half the town calling for his head?

Probably not, unless he has no way to back out. And his play doesn't make sense for an innocent who has a scummy for best town performance. So...yeah.

[Nocmen]

I'm here, as noted in sig, VLA for the weekend, I'll try to get through what I missed later tonight

[Nocmen]

I agree fully with corvuus's first post. However, his permutation post really bugs me. How is Emp and DP both town work out with them? You explain two, and both scum seems fairly obvious, but both town you make no explanation or attempt to explain that, and by sheer probability, you need to assume that as the most likely case. It's weird though given his conclusion, that if Emp was town, why would he worry about DP buddying him?

Actually, did Emp ever have an issue with DP buddying him and thinking that Emp is town?

[singersigner]

Gah...busy weekend got away from me...coming back tomorrow with more thoughts. I'm really sorry about this. I'll catch up when I have time tomorrow. =/

[Empking]

I agree fully with corvuus's first post. However, his permutation post really bugs me. How is Emp and DP both town work out with them? You explain two, and both scum seems fairly obvious, but both town you make no explanation or attempt to explain that, and by sheer probability, you need to assume that as the most likely case. It's weird though given his conclusion, that if Emp was town, why would he worry about DP buddying him?

Actually, did Emp ever have an issue with DP buddying him and thinking that Emp is town?

I didn't.

Lrd: Your lack of posts today made you a lurker and we've already discussed how you lied.

[Corvuus]

i didn't feel the need to explain both as town since in the both as town case, it is really based on meta and what I think townies would do, and what they think townies would do. Subjective point.

For example: I personally believe that townies should not blindly accept buddying by anyone. Townies (uninformed minority) have the least amount of information compared to scum and don't have 'perfect' knowledge of anything unless someone flips or some kind of town-role ability. i.e. yeah, town is town, and some might like being buddied or called certain town... but someone saying you are super duper town when you really aren't that super duper is 1. scumbuddy if you actually are scum. 2. scum trying to manipulate you if you are town. 3. town with either no play. 4. town with a really deep play. 5. you are scum and you simply don't care. I will not explain the town reasons nor implications since I do not wish EMP, etc. to parrot or know what I consider town-tells, etc.

---

EMP never made an issue of DP buddying or DP calling EMP obvious/certified town until I mentioned it. If DP was a beacon of townness, then this probably wouldn't be an issue at all.

sidenote: There are 2 players who have listed EMP as very likely town(I think, Rhinox + Incog), but no where near to the extremeness of DP.

I mean, there could be the case that BOTH are town and that, in terms of meta, both have absolutely no problem with what happened, and what they did. I just don't see that as the most likely case in this situation. In terms of highest probability for me, EMP as scum, DP as town fits this situation specific meta. The problem in completely differentiating the two is difficult based on EMP's post 34 and 36 in isolation where he states EMP's wagon is false, FA's wagon has decent reasoning, DP's wagon has poor reasoning (no scum motivation). I'm not actually sure what he means when he says DP's wagon has no scum motivation?

FA's wagon of decent reasoning (i am talking pre-immediate deadline) is just not there, and EMP, FA, DP were the wagon choices. The question of why he didn't choose DP is interesting in terms of alignment of both players.... hrmm... still seeing a more likely DP-town, EMP-scum.

EMP: clarify why DP's wagon was poor reasoning (no scum motivation) or what the decent reasoning on FA was at the time you said it.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

edit by way of post: the 'or' should be an 'and' in the very last sentence.

C

[havingfitz]

Then I've vote four players all game. Again, hardly all over the place.

You've voted for more players (4) than anyone else in the game and IMO you have given crap reasons (if any) for all of your votes. Off the top of my head I would categorize your votes as OMGUS, OMGUS, self preservation, a VI who isn't a VI, and now back to Lrd (your 2nd OMGUS).

Prior to jumping on singer's wagon you had barely acknowledged her this entire game. This despite both, what I assume you would call, your serious votes (Lrd and I) still being in the game. That is where I get all over the place. In games you are town do you usually have valid reasons for voting people or do you always play this way?

@ AD and Cruelty...you guys have both been on the site since the game opened back up. Your participation would be appreciated (by me at least).

@ Lrd...thanks for posting. I didn't get a good feel however for who you suspect at the moment. Since we are essentially in part 2 of D1....I don't know why there would be hesitation to vote on anyone's part unless they did not have a strong opinion at the end of D1.

[Empking]

Cor: The reasoning on DP didn't take into account that there was no scum motive for DP's actions. They may have been poor play or possibly anti-town but they weren't scummy. The decent reasoning on FA was the reaction to mass claim.

HF: 4 votes is not a lot. We've got a lo of inactives and tunelling players in this game, that's the only reason that even a tunelling player like yourself raises an eyebrow at four votes.

Also, I absolutely acknowledge Singer several time vore today. I said she was one of my main suspects when asked Day 1.

I think its very weird that you don't understand other players changing their reads ("Why didn't you vote HF despite finding him scummy early D1") I didn't vote Lrd because we went through it yesterday about how nobody else looked at him like I do and since he was only slightly worse than Singer I went to the most popular wagon.

HF: You call my vote on Lrd "OMGUS" do you consider lying and lurking scum tells? If so, why don't you believe I also do.
You call my vote on FA "self preservation". Several players in this game wanted a good lynch, why don't you think I share the same viewpoint.

[Nocmen]

Corvuus: Your case against Emp is that he must be scum because he didn't directly respond to DP "buddying" him? Is that it?

[Nocmen]

I also still don't see why you believe DP Town, Emp scum is the most likely. Unless you're trying to protect your buddy DP. Which makes sense along with:

I agree that there is likely scum off his wagon. (Hence my post upon start of day,

I am at fault for not hammering at the end of day 1

)

However, there had been no talk of the upcoming deadline and no one had even mentioned when it was (as far as I can remember, please correct me if wrong) and there was no urgency to get a lynch happening on that specific day. That is why I had no idea I needed to switch my vote.

That, and I still don't know why DP says the wagon on FA is so scummy, to me it seems like he would be trying to earn town cred by hammering the scum.

I'm keeping my vote on singer until he gives something of worth today, and if that pleases me slightly, I'll be moving it to Corvuus.

[havingfitz]

HF: 4 votes is not a lot. We've got a lo of inactives and tunelling players in this game, that's the only reason that even a tunelling player like yourself raises an eyebrow at four votes.

Also, I absolutely acknowledge Singer several time vore today. I said she was one of my main suspects when asked Day 1.

I think its very weird that you don't understand other players changing their reads ("Why didn't you vote HF despite finding him scummy early D1") I didn't vote Lrd because we went through it yesterday about how nobody else looked at him like I do and since he was only slightly worse than Singer I went to the most popular wagon.

HF: You call my vote on Lrd "OMGUS" do you consider lying and lurking scum tells? If so, why don't you believe I also do.
You call my vote on FA "self preservation". Several players in this game wanted a good lynch, why don't you think I share the same viewpoint.

You listed her along with me and said you thought she was either scum or a VI...leaning VI. Sorry if that sort of non-commital answer got overlooked by me. Considering that she was your only other suspect mentioned besides me....the fact to skipped her for Lrdwhyt and then put a 3rd vote on FA to save your arse when you could have also put singer (who you apparently suspected until you bothered reading up on her) at a 3rd vote does not make sense. At least it doesn’t make sense to me because I try to vote for the players I find most suspicious.

As for tunnelling...you are not the only person I suspect. With only one vote to give...you just happen to be the one I suspect the most (see how it works?) so I remain happy to vote you. If your gameplay had improved throughout D1 I would have considered moving my vote but that has not happened IMO.

As for Lrd...he has been one of the less active players in the game but there is at least one less active (cruelty) and I like to have a little more to go on than attendance. When you voted for Lrd it was your first post after he had voted you (ie OMGUS) and the only reason you gave then was that he was not being honest. When in fact he had been honest. He had never expressed support for your massclaim idea that I can find and you try to paint him as agreeing with 2 of your points....

Unvote

Vote: Lrd

- We've gone through my reasons for mass claim. Remember, you agreed to two points of my reasoning and only disagreed with the point about the [non-existant] confirmed town. You are simply not being honest at this point.

The three points you made were:

Can everyone agree that MC will:
Not have an impact on whether we have confirmed town in lylo.
Force scum into a position they'd rather not be in.
Give town greater information and allow them to better hunt for scum.

(Also since we know AD and HF are the scum we can get them to claim first.)

To which Lrd replied...

If I wasn't convinced before that you aren't seriously arguing for a mass claim, I sure am now. How, in any way, was your logic irrefutable? Your asking for a mass claim was either a joke and you're not even trying, or you really want a mass claim, and you're hoping that no one will actually read your arguments.

1. As someone else said, no. Outing the roles means power roles die, thus decreasing the chances of having confirmed town in LYLO.
2. Depends on whether they're early in the mass claim or not.
3. Yes.

The above hardly looks like he is being dishonest about his feelings towards your MC idea in conjunction with his later vote on you. Lrd has not lied that I can see despite your accusations...as I have already stated. Also...your suspicions voiced in the quote above towards AD are OMGUS as well because of his opposition to your MC. You are just making sh;t up as you go along, aren’t you? You are either lazy town or floundering scum and your lynch would be beneficial to town in either case.

tl:dr;

More votes for Emp please.

[Corvuus]

Noc: No. it isn't.

That is one part, his MC-read-followup, his choice of FA over DP and choice/reaction.

However, i realize now that my fault is that I talk too much. You asked me about the case of both being town, so I said why I doubt both are town and why i think if either of them have to be town it is more likely DP.

EMP: direct contradiction in saying that DP's actions were not scummy (post #334) and post #296. His questionable clarification post does not help since, of course, there is a DP as scum reason for doing it which, if EMP is town, he should be aware of and fearful of, i.e. DP-scum gets lynched due to 'easy-lynching', causes EMP to be lynched in response.

Ironically, I find myself in the same position for trying to make sense of DP true alignment and thinking he is actually town and because of how anti-town he is, it makes you want to lynch me.... but not EMP?

At any rate, EMP is scum. DP could be scum but the requirements for such are not that favorable. EMP town and DP scum.... would be quite weird to me.

===

I also still don't see why you believe DP Town, Emp scum is the most likely. Unless you're trying to protect your buddy DP. Which makes sense along with:

I agree that there is likely scum off his wagon. (Hence my post upon start of day,

I am at fault for not hammering at the end of day 1

)

However, there had been no talk of the upcoming deadline and no one had even mentioned when it was (as far as I can remember, please correct me if wrong) and there was no urgency to get a lynch happening on that specific day. That is why I had no idea I needed to switch my vote.

That, and I still don't know why DP says the wagon on FA is so scummy, to me it seems like he would be trying to earn town cred by hammering the scum.

I'm keeping my vote on singer until he gives something of worth today, and if that pleases me slightly, I'll be moving it to Corvuus.

Re-read again. DP answers your question. Whether you like his answer is one thing, but it is an answer and if DP did know about deadline, then DP-town probably would have hammered Corv/FA-town. To say it would build town-cred because I'd flip scum? It wouldn't since I am town.

Noc, i'll have to consider your alignment later and I'll ask

"So the only case you have on me is that I think DP is crazy-anti-town-town aligned?"

Corv

[Corvuus]

It's weird though given his conclusion, that if Emp was town, why would he worry about DP buddying him?

what does this mean?

C

[Empking]

HF: It seems to me that you're saying that changing my reads on players is scummy. Is that correct? What's scummy about it?

1. When did I say that Lred was being dishonest about not wanting a massclaim?
2. Are you honestly trying to say that "Yes." is not an agreement?
3. Do you know what OMGUS is? If so, are you dishonestly claiming I'm doing it in order to dishonestly get me lynched?
4. Other than myself who is scum?
5. You're trying to paint it as me trying to lynch scum by voting FA is a bad thing (The lynch had to be me (I know is town), DP (a strong town read) or FA (leaning scum)). Do you think that your play of being a stubborn tunnelling player and not voting FA is the right course of action for town to take?

DP-scum gets lynched due to 'easy-lynching', causes EMP to be lynched in response.

My experience of the game causes me to doubt that would happen (plus there's my general view of DP being town).

[Fishythefish]

Day 2, Votecount 3

Empking (2) - havingfitz, Corvuus
Corvuus (2) - Rhinox, Incognito
singersigner (1) - Nocmen
Rhinox (1) - DavidParker
Lrdwhyt (1) - Empking

Not Voting (4) - AdumbroDeus, cruelty, singersigner, Lrdwhyt

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

[cruelty]

hey, didn't realise this was open again. catching up.

[DavidParker]

I'd be willing to lynch cruelty for the amount he has lurked.

[Corvuus]

EMP: You have a strong town read on DP? Which posts from DP or what parts?

EMP, do you think I am scum. Yes or no?

Corv

[havingfitz]

HF: It seems to me that you're saying that changing my reads on players is scummy. Is that correct? What's scummy about it?

I have no problem with people changing reads. IMO opinion your votes in this game have been opportunistic and/or for very dubious/weak reasons. Like you just want to lynch anyone and aren’t particular about it as long as it isn’t you.

1. When did I say that Lred was being dishonest about not wanting a massclaim?

Umm....I quoted it for you above. here it is again:

Unvote

Vote: Lrd - We've gone through my reasons for mass claim. Remember, you agreed to two points of my reasoning and only disagreed with the point about the [non-existant] confirmed town. You are simply not being honest at this point.

2. Are you honestly trying to say that "Yes." is not an agreement?

No I’m not saying that. Where are you getting this from? What I am saying (to quote Lrd) is that ‘No’ and ‘Depends on’ is not an agreement. This difference of opinion seems to form the basis for your initial vote on Lrd and therefore your vote on Lrd is without merit.

3. Do you know what OMGUS is? If so, are you dishonestly claiming I'm doing it in order to dishonestly get me lynched?

Yes. And I’m honestly pointing it out it in order to honestly get you lynched.

4. Other than myself who is scum?

Well...at least we’re in agreement that you are scum. My other suspects at this time are Rhinox and singer.

5. You're trying to paint it as me trying to lynch scum by voting FA is a bad thing (The lynch had to be me (I know is town), DP (a strong town read) or FA (leaning scum)).

Where did you ever say you were leaning towards FA being scum? The first time I can see you even mentioning him is when you vote him with the rationale that it is the only wagon with decent reasoning behind it. I see your vote on FA...who you never mentioned suspicons of previously (whereas you had mentioned me, AD, singer, and Lrd) as a hop on the next largest wagon to yours to save yourself. Also...I misspoke above. I said when you put a 3rd vote on FA that you could have instead put a 3rd vote on singer. This was wrong...singer did not have any votes att. However...she did subsequently get the next two votes and you could have moved your vote to her....someone you had at least expressed suspicions of but you did not.

Do you think that your play of being a stubborn tunnelling player and not voting FA is the right course of action for town to take?

Do you need to see things twice to retain them? Do you need to see things twice to retain them?

As for tunnelling...you are not the only person I suspect. With only one vote to give...you just happen to be the one I suspect the most (see how it works?) so I remain happy to vote you. If your gameplay had improved throughout D1 I would have considered moving my vote but that has not happened IMO.

FA wasn’t high enough on my list of suspicions to warrant my vote. I wish he had been lynched as the information would have been good for town and helped progress the game, it just wasn’t going to get an assist from my vote.

[Rhinox]

@Corvuus and Havingfitz:

I didn't argue that corvuus' allignment doesn't matter. I think a deadline no-lynch is more likely to happen if the person about to be lynched is scum rather than town, which is why I'm still voting you, but I think scum are more likely to allow a no lynch than town regardless of the allignment of the person being wagoned, so the players who allowed the no lynch to occur do not get to be off the hook if you flip town.

This is because of the way things usually go around the site here, no lynches are bad on D1 and players are "allowed" to vote at deadline only for the sake of a lynch, usually without any backlash, even if they hadn't set a precedent for thinking the player being lynched was scummy. Scum, IMO, would be more likely to hammer a townie in this situation rather than risk looking scummy for allowing a no lynch to happen - unless the person about to be lynched is their scum partner.

When I said there are definitely scum in the group not voting FA at deadline, what I mean is that I believe 2 out of an assumed 3 scum are in that group, but if corvuus is town, possibly even all 3. I didn't mean that there is at least 1 scum there, which would be pretty obvious for the reasons fitz gave.

No, go back and read. He did repeatedly say that massclaiming was a good idea, after the first time, making it sound like a genuine proposal rather than just a reaction test type thing.

Yes, but he never attempted to justify why or convince anyone else that it was the best idea, IMO. I just don't think empking is naive enough to think he was really going to convince anyone to massclaim without justification.

I wish you guys would go back and look at FA's iso. Its short enough where it shouldn't be a problem. He starts out "seeing no harm" with mass claiming and says "if we mass claim, wait til everyone has confirmed" as if he's planning for mass claiming. Thats not something that someone who is not sure about the idea or thinks it could be a bad idea would say. He even spoke some words in support of it in his iso #4.

Through FA's posts, he progressively distances from the fact that he humored the idea of massclaiming, I believe because he saw how much backlash empking was getting for the idea. By his iso 12 he's calling empking misguided town and calling it questionable for an innocent player to propose mass claiming [something that seems like a scum move].

Apart from the empking stuff, he says in iso #8 that "its far too early to pass judgement on who is definitely scum", but in iso #10 on the same RL day, he calls DavidParker "clearly scummy".

note to all: I'll have limited access through the holiday weekend. Traveling to Boston for thanksgiving, leaving tonight. Returning sunday evening. I might be able to make short posts from my phone while I'm away. I probably won't return to full activity until tuesday. Posting this in all my games.

[Corvuus]

The problem is that in this specific game, the deadline rules are not a simple plurality or a 'if no majority lynch, then no deadline lynch'. It is based on # of players voting and majority of that. Which was not understood, etc. so it is mostly null since any conclusion on how people voted, etc. is not a strong indicator of anything since I think the majority of players here thought it would be a deadline lynch.

---

Once again, you guys may not have your cake and eat it too.

I am town. If you are going to assume that FA is scum and that he humored Massclaim for scummy reason (as opposed to say, townie not fully understanding nor knowing what to do and changing his position as he thinks about it more), then make a decision on whether EMP is scum or who might FA's scumbuddies (if FA is scum) be.

In this case, do you really think FA's scumbuddies (scum) would bus or, if not bus, allow wagon to grow on their AFK-buddy? Why is it assumed that it makes more sense for "FA's imaginary scumbuddies" to let FA live due to a misunderstood deadline rules as opposed to 1. lynching him (bus) to gain town points or 2. wagoning someone else to save their scumbuddy when there isn't anything on FA.

FA being the 'almost' lynch yesterday should be proof of him not having buddies/being scum. Not of a imaginary conspiracy where 'scum were the only ones who realized what the deadline rules were and decided to last minute let their buddy'.

------

Rhinox: Your view and your quote of FA is misleading. FA's posts in isolation should be read as post #7, 8 and 9 for a complete view of FA (plus 10 to understand his position). In 7 he votes DP. In 8 he says it is too early to decisively know who is scum. In 9 he says at the bottom of the post

This makes me even more sure of my vote.
1) You admit to buddying.
2) You either know that empking is town, meaning you're scum, or you've got such strong confirmation bias that it doesn't matter what he actually is.
3) You admit that you're case is not based on any fact that we can prove.
4) You are perfectly fine using fallacies. Fallacies

don't prove anything

. According to Wikipedia, a fallacy is "incorrect reasoning in argumentation resulting in a misconception." In layman's terms, a mistake. You're saying you're willing to use mistakes and misconceptions to back up your argument that empking is town.

In my eyes, you're either scum (and therefore know empking is town), or are tunnel-visioning his innocence. Either way, it's bad for the town.

That DP is either scum, or town tunnel-visioning. His vote, interest, discussion on DP is that his actions are scummy/anti-town and voted him for pressure/info but it isn't certainty and "decisively knowing DP is scum" nor did FA pretend it to be so. Based on DP's actions, FA's reads, he thought DP was more likely scum than tunnel vision town leading towards post #10. Skipping a post completely while reading FA in isolation?

FoS Rhinox

I'm still up for a EMP lynch today. Rhinox lynch tomorrow.

Corvuus

[Corvuus]

edit by way of post:

decided to last minute let their buddy 'live'.

C

[Empking]

The problem is that in this specific game, the deadline rules are not a simple plurality or a 'if no majority lynch, then no deadline lynch'. It is based on # of players voting and majority of that. Which was not understood, etc. so it is mostly null since any conclusion on how people voted, etc. is not a strong indicator of anything since I think the majority of players here thought it would be a deadline lynch.

That doesn't wash. By the end of Day 1 it was clear to everybody that we needed to lynch FA or there would by a No Lynch at deadline. There was confusion but it was cleared up in time.

Unvote

Vote: Cor

I'm going to follow what wise player whose name I forget and say that if nobody else sees it then its probably not there with regards to Lrd.

[Corvuus]

Still didn't answer my question. What is your strong town read on DP?

Also, you didn't actually say I am scum or not. Just voting me without saying anything? Give a case.

Corv