Mini 1064 - Charlie's Town (Game Over!)

[masfloohinev]

/confirm

Playerlist looks awesome.

[masfloohinev]

Just an early headsup:

V/LA Friday October 8th and will have very limited access October 9th.

[masfloohinev]

Vote: q21

[masfloohinev]

Vote: Shotty to the Body

[masfloohinev]

Lol.

What is so funny?

[masfloohinev]

What do you think was my motivation for voting you? Take a guess.

[masfloohinev]

Haha guessing, fine. "DERP DERP NO EXPLANATION VOTE OMG SOMEONE QUESTIONED ME DEFENDING SCUM HERP LOLOLOL"

That pretty much sums it up yes?

Close, but not quite. I'll explain later. BTW, this post is scummy too.

[masfloohinev]

FoS: RichardGHP

[masfloohinev]

Scum team to the rescue with a counterwagon!

Is this serious?

[masfloohinev]

What?

[masfloohinev]

Wow. Shotty, that post was full of crap. There is a lot of evidence suggesting that you are scum right now:

The reason for originally voting you was because you showed a strange amount of interest in my vote for q21. It was the RVS, so why did you have to ask me if I had reasons for my vote? What kind of answer were you expecting? ("He's got the letter q in his name, that's why!!!") Did you think my vote was serious at the time?

You think my vote for q21 was to draw votes away from RichardGHP. This logic is soooo incredibly irrational. First of all, you seem to think my vote was useless because it had no reasons accompanied to it, yet you are also blaming me for drawing votes away from RichardGHP. Secondly, why in the world would I be interested in taking votes away from somebody in the RVS?!?

Also, your suspicion of me and RichardGHP seems wierd. You have brought up several points against me (bad points), you haven't shown extreme suspicion of anybody else, and I currently only have one vote (I think), so why not vote for me? Is it because you are afraid to? I don't believe you actually feel that me and RichardGHP are scumbuddies, because that should involve having quite a bit of certainty that I am scum, yet you are voting RichardGHP instead. If you suspect RichardGHP on the basis of me being scum, then you should be voting me, but if you suspect me on the basis of RichardGHP being scum, then you actually need evidence explaining why RichardGHP is scum, because you haven't given any points (and you seem to be against players keeping their points to themselves). And if you

are

suspecting me on the basis that RichardGHP being scum, then you failed to mention when your vote became serious (looks like

you

are also withholding information). Saying you suspect us both based on me supposedly trying to "draw votes away" also makes no sense: I gave no reason for my vote. You seriously think a REASONLESS VOTE was designed to draw votes away from another player from and RVS BANDWAGON?!?

The purpose of the reasonless vote and giving reasons later was because I wanted to see how people reacted and what sort of actions they took in response before they knew the reasons. For example, I am thinking FakeGod is scum based on his response to my vote for Shotty.

[masfloohinev]

@Substrike - Those reasons for voting me are very bad.
FakeGod - Where's my vote? My vote is on somebody else I suspect. Where's your contributions?
Casus Belli - I suspected FakeGod's reaction to the vote not because it was a reasonless vote, but because he ignored my vote for Shotty.

I'm not too impressed with Casus Belli or Nachomamma. Casus Bellis asks lots of questions and gave absolutely no reads/votes. The suspicion of Nacomamma is because he voted me for my case against Shotty (post 61) but in post 79 he says he hadn't read the post. How could he have voted me for a post he hadn't read? What exactly was wrong with it? In addition, the vote switch looks odd... especially when he voted me (for voting Shotty) and then switched to Shotty anyway. I could see either of those two being scum, but I

do

currently have quite a few scumreads at the moment.

Response to Shotty coming up next.

[masfloohinev]

So I was dead-on in my quote of you from before where you're herp derping fishing for a reason to vote someone. How is the single word 'why?' an "inordinate amount on interest." Considering you voted without saying anything isn't it a fair question? If you were voting him for having a 'q' in his name all you had to do was say so. Your vote may or may not've been serious, I didn't know since you said nothing, you could've been pushing a policy lynch for all I knew at the time so I asked for clarification.

Ftr, I didn't actually vote q21 because he has a q in his name. That was sarcasm. I still just find it wierd that you thought my vote could've been serious when it followed nothing else but other random votes.

A reasonless vote isn't useless, it's a good scum-tell! At any stage in the game, scum often have trouble scum-hunting and weakness like your reasonless vote and the FoS on GHP are signs of it.

Oh please! There are so many things wrong with this. First of all, you are coming up with nonsense to get around the point I'm getting across. Do you seriously think that my reasonless vote wasn't useless? Secondly, I feel like you are calling me stupid. I am not. I could easily cast a random vote and add random reasoning to it if I wanted to as scum. Me not doing so doesn't mean it is because I am scum that doesn't know how to pretend I'm town. How exactly does the FoS of RichardGHP show that I have trouble scumhunting? It is giving an indication of my read of him which is scumhunting.

As for taking votes away from him, he was at what 4? That's over halfway to lynch, you wouldn't want your scum-friend getting caught by a stupid RVS wagon, so of course you would try to shift focus if the two of you were buddies. I believe you're behavior was taking the pressure off of GHP, RVS or not I don't really see how that gives you an excuse.

Oh please! Keep in mind my vote had no reasons. You can't possibly think I was expecting to start a bandwagon on you.

GHP is as good a push as any at this point in the game, at the beginning you have little to no evidence on anyone. [1: It's not like he's done anything to make me think better of him], [2: he's letting you fight his battle] and [3: his only post since I voted him was OMGUS after two people had already voted me]. Your FoS links you to him as you're covering all your bases at that point by simultaneously attacking (via FoS) and [4: defending him (in this post saying I have no points on him)]. [5: If GHP is town his odds of being a VT are greater than his odds of being a PR, so why not push it?] Especially, when I'll have a fairly solid opinion on your alignment if he flips scum. Even if the wagon goes nowhere, we're still generating information right now instead of sitting around so what the fuck why not? If you want to be frank, mas, I'm still on his wagon because it's bigger than yours is right now and I'm indifferent to lynching either of you.

1: The same could be said of several people. This is the wrong mentality if you are using this reasoning to call people scum on page 4.
2: What battle? What the heck are you talking about? There are no points you have brought up against him?
3: So basically your suspicion of him comes down to OMGUS, because the other points mean nothing. Why didn't you bring up this point before? I am pretty sure you suspected me for not revealing all my thoughts.
4: That's not me defending him, that's me attacking you.
5: I don't think you should really be saying these kinds of things. It might be a form of rolefishing.

The purpose of the reasonless vote and giving reasons later was because I wanted to see how people reacted and what sort of actions they took in response before they knew the reasons. For example, I am thinking FakeGod is scum based on his response to my vote for Shotty.

So are you saying we're buddies or what? You still haven't explained why I'm scummy, all you've done is contest my arguments which isn't the same thing (townies can be wrong after all). Your all or nothing attitude towards alignment is incorrect at best.

You are not necessarily buddies. Keep in mind this is page 4 we're talking about. I haven't figured out who the scumteam is yet.

No, those are not the only reasons for my vote for you. I'm voting you for questioning my RVS vote and bad logic in your later posts, not because I think your reads are necessarily wrong. What do you mean by all or nothing attitude?

I still don't like Shotty's logic but I'm thinking he might just be inexperienced and gut is telling me he might be town. I would like to

Unvote. Vote: FakeGod

instead. I would love to hear more from CES as well.

[masfloohinev]

Mas: First of all, why do you have to give reads/votes in every post? Doesn't it make sense to also ask questions in your posts, so you might develop better reads and thus make more accurate votes...?

Second of all, you're putting reasons to my vote when there's none to find. I quoted a post of yours, then voted you. I didn't actually state any reasons whatsoever for voting you.

Firstly, I'm fine with the way I've been playing, thanks.
Secondly, why

did

you vote for me then?

{Shotty
FakeGod
jmurph}

[Cas
mas
Richard]

?

[masfloohinev]

Nachomamma, I'm an alt. I

still

think players should have at least one read with the amount of serious discussion there is to work with. Also, now that you have read the case, what do you think about it?

q21 -

1. I disagree with your comments regarding my post. Concerning the reasonless vote for Shotty, you say that it is likely I'll get the response "Why?", but I have already gotten two much more telling reactions than that. Shotty responded by trying to laugh it off and FakeGod responded by ignoring it. If Shotty does flip scum later, than these reactions will be very helpful for determining his buddies. You are underestimating the power of reactions.

2. I could ask you the same thing. Why don't you pay attention:

Because that was an overly long post for page 4, and

I figured

it was chock-full of reaching as a result.

I thought Nachomamma had not read my post based on what he said in 79 and I was right when Nachomamma clearly states here that he hadn't. If he had read my post when he voted me, then why would he have had to make guesses about what was in it?

3. The reason for my vote has nothing to do with this. The point is that you can't say that I was expecting a bandwagon with a reasonless vote. How often does that ever happen? The logic is just stupid.


Shotty -

1. No he didn't.

2. Yeah, I am an alt.

3.1: You said one of your reasons for the vote was because there was no reason for you to think better of him. This is a terrible reason for this early in the game. It translates to you voting him because he doesn't seem like town yet to you. This reasoning should apply to several other players: jmurph, Reckamonic, or even FakeGod. What have they done to make you think better of them?

3.2: Defend himself against what? Where have I addressed any of the points against him? All I have done is tell you your attack is stupid.

3.3: How the heck do the other points mean anything? "Because there is no reason not to think better of him," which is dumb, and "Because he is letting you fight his battles," which is not true, are the only points you have given.

3.5: Well regardless of if it was rolefishing or not, why would you be helping scum figure out his role?


Substrike - You are reaching. What is so wrong about an FoS on page 3? Nothing. I FoSed RichardGHP for post 49: I didn't see the need for the post other than scum possibly trying to justify their vote so it doesn't get attacked. I'm not going to continue arguing against this point because I honestly think it sucks and I don't know how to convince you otherwise.


jmurph - I'm honestly more annoyed at the terrible points being brought up against me that are being considered valid. Also, I find it odd that you FoS me for finding me more suspicious than Shotty but then proceed to tell us that you think Shotty and q21 might be buddies. I don't get it. Also, why no vote?

[masfloohinev]

Is nobody else concerned with FakeGod's failure to contribute anything but usless one liners?

[masfloohinev]

q21:

2. No. I'm not making stuff up. I interprated post 79 as him saying he hadn't read my post. I was right: He voted me in post 68 for something concerning post 61. Then, in post 79 he switches his vote to Shotty based on posts 61 and 63. Either he contradicted himself, or he had voted me without originally reading post 61. I brought up 85, because I thought it helped prove my point. I don't see what the problem is.

3. Okay, we seem to sort of agree on this. I don't see why I am getting blame for the bandwagon that was pushed by jmurph and RichardGHP.

[masfloohinev]

q21, what do you think of FakeGod and SpyreX?

[masfloohinev]

With how scummy Richard is, Mas and his reasonless Shotty vote looks like an attempt to distract the town away from the growing Richard wagon. Still we find Richard scummier than Mas, so no switch from us.

Have you never seen somebody vote for somebody without giving reasons? This is really reaching. Keep in mind this was an RVS bandwagon.

What was useless about FakeGod's post 93?

All it was was a post giving his opinions regarding mafia theory. No reads or questions or anything helpful in it. Convince me otherwise.

Casus Belli, why didn't you give any reads in your previous post?

[masfloohinev]

q21, I want to know your current reads on those players.

With how scummy Richard is, Mas and his reasonless Shotty vote looks like an attempt to distract the town away from the growing Richard wagon. Still we find Richard scummier than Mas, so no switch from us.

Have you never seen somebody vote for somebody without giving reasons? This is really reaching. Keep in mind this was an RVS bandwagon.

Yes we have seen people voting without reason before. You.

This doesn't answer my question, and I think you know it.

Casus Belli, why didn't you give any reads in your previous post?

Read it again. We said Richard and yourself are likely scum, in our book, those are reads.

No, you didn't. I'm talking about this post.

Wasn't it you just arguing that FakeGod's reasonless vote was a reaction to your vote on Shotty? Why can't we propose the likelihood of your hop on Shotty as a reaction to Richards growing wagon considering the timing and how you gently pushed it on with subsequent posts.

...because the theory that I'm protecting RichardGHP is reaching whereas the idea that FakeGod could've been scum trying to avoid commenting on the game was logical.


I thought it over and like this alternative to my FakeGod vote:

Unvote. Vote: Casus Belli

[masfloohinev]

Your avatar is incredibly unlikeable, though, masnlfllooovz.

Better?

[masfloohinev]

Umm.... no. You didn't make that very clear. But do you have a read on Casus Belli?

[masfloohinev]

SpyreX, did you actually suspect RichardGHP? I want a serious answer that doesn't include the word 'giggles'. nachomamma, how about you? I'll give my thoughts after I've heard the answer to these questions.

[masfloohinev]

Oh my gosh... I've got WAY TOO MANY scumreads right now. (There's really only one or two players that I don't suspect excluding myself). I need to reread, look at the bandwagon, and do some isos.

Too make matters worse,

Mod:

I'm going to have limited access the following four days. I'll be on vacation, but should still have time for some posting. I'll try to post something before I leave.

[masfloohinev]

I'm still working on an analysis of the game, but ftr, I currently suspect SpyreX and I'm actually beginning to suspect Shotty again too despite my earlier town read on him. I'll give reasons later.

[masfloohinev]

EBWOP: I've got a few questions...

CES, why do you suspect Casus Belli and not Reckamonic? Reckamonic seemed to show an even stronger belief that RichardGHP, don't you think?
FakeGod and nachomamma, who do you suspect?
Substrike, am I your top suspect?

[masfloohinev]

One more question...
Nachomamma, did you actually think SpyreX would hammer RichardGHP if you put him at L-1?

[masfloohinev]

So... jmurph, you say that SpyreX is the person on Richard's bandwagon that you are most willing to vote, yet vote Shotty, the person SpyreX is voting, who was also on the Richard bandwagon. If SpyreX and Shotty were both on the Richard bandwagon and you say SpyreX is the person you are most willing to vote out of the people on Richard's bandwagon, doesn't that include Shotty?

[masfloohinev]

EBWOP: If SpyreX and Shotty were both on the Richard bandwagon and you say SpyreX is the person you are most willing to vote out of the people on Richard's bandwagon, doesn't that mean you should suspect him more than Shotty?

[masfloohinev]

SpyreX, why is FakeGod creeping you out?

[masfloohinev]

Sorry for the quadruple post...

I'm hoping to have finished my analysis by tonight and be ready to vote somebody.

[masfloohinev]

@Mas: what part of, I reread the thread and changed my mind doesn't make sense to you? At the time when I wrote the first post, Spyrex stuck out in my mind purely because of the hammer. Once I took a step back and reread things, Shotty stuck out as much scummier. So I voted him.

I missed that.

[masfloohinev]

masfloohinev's 195 is terribad: "Oh hey I suspect the person who hammered and I'm also going back on a town read so I don't back myself into a corner here".

What is wrong with suspecting SpyreX for hammering? If I interprated his posts correctly, he even understands the suspicion he's attracted. Regarding Shotty, it wasn't until today that I realized he hadn't really been contributing that much... but if you are calling me scum for changing my read then you need to learn how to scumhunt. A player's reads aren't always going to stay the same as they are on day 1.

Furthermore, his questioning on CES, FakeGod, nachomamma, and Substrike in 196 feels incredibly fluffy, and not in a good way. We don't believe that he actually thinks SpyreX is scum, nor do we think he actually suspects Shotty right now.

I can't really defend against this.

Mas needs to clear up his suspect business on me. One way or the other.

I'm getting to it. I just need to look at 2 or 3 more players a bit more closely.

[masfloohinev]

Vote: FakeGod

I think the scumteam is him, SpyreX, and jmurph. I'll give reasons later.

[masfloohinev]

Below are my thoughts on most of the players in the game. I'm having a bit of trouble getting good reads on most of the players in the game, but here are my reads:

FakeGod:

After reading FakeGod in isolation, I highly suspect him. He jumped from suspecting Richard a little bit to thinking Richard is scum. What's stranger is that Richard didn't even post inbetween these two stances. So, I have no idea what could have changed his mind. His reason for the vote was that there was a counter bandwagon, but nobody voted Shotty inbetween those two stances so that couldn't have been the reason for him changing his mind.

My second reason for suspecting him is his reason for suspecting Richard. He thinks Richard is scum simply because of something other players did. I would like for him to post some examples of games where he saw a counterbandwagon rise against a scum.

My third reason for suspecting FakeGod is that he seems to care about his survival a bit too much. Two examples of this:

A.) Today he subtly pushes the suggestion of lynching somebody that wasn't on Richard's bandwagon by saying that there is a 1/3 chance of hitting scum as opposed to 2/7. This seems to be self serving, because

he

was on the Richard lynch bandwagon.

B.) He doesn't vote for SpyreX until after SpyreX says that he's creeping him out. It could be a coincidence but I think that seems interesting.


Fourthly, I think FakeGod may have made a scumslip at the beginning of today. At the beginning of today, he says this:

Should we lynch inside the wagon or the outside?

If we assume 2 scum on cop wagon and 1 scum outside, that gives us about 2/7 nailing scum inside the wagon, and 1/3 nailing scum outside the wagon.

The problem with this is that he says there is a 2/7 chance of lynching scum if they go for somebody on the bandwagon. However, from his PoV it should be a 2/6 chance if he is town. Could be an indicator that he is scum.

Lastly, FakeGod has brought hardly any points up against players and has given us hardly any reads to work with. He's been useless.

Overall, I strongly feel that FakeGod is scum.

My Read:

Mafia

SpyreX:

SpyreX spent all of day 1 tunnelling on Shotty to the Body and practically ignored everybody else. I find it hard to believe that a townie wouldn't have anything to say about any of the other players.

Secondly, the hammer. His motivations for hammering Richard make absolutely no sense:

1.) I wanted to see what Nacho would do given he was on.
2.) I wanted to see what Richard would do with the threat of a power hammer.
3.) I figured what the hell if it goes through - it'd say something INTERESTING if he was actually scum and, hopefully even if not, do something.

These reasons for hammering Richard don't make any sense at all. 1 and 2 are things that occurred before you actually hammered Richard. Once Richard and nachomamma reacted to the threat you had accomplished those goals. So, why did you still need to hammer? 3 is a terrible reason. Is adding spice to the game more important than having role claims and a day longer than 6 pages? No, it isn't.

Overall, I don't understand SpyreX's vote at all.

My Read:

Mafia

Nachomamma8:

I think he's town. The only problem I have with him is his assistance with hammering Richard. He hasn't done anything EXTREMELY pro-town, but aside from the L-1 Richard vote, he hasn't done anything scummy imo.

My Read:

Neutral/Town

Shotty to the Body:

I thought he was town earlier, but he's began active lurking recently and flying under the radar a bit more. Thinking about this, I've realized this isn't always a scumtell and it might just be his meta. After thinking it through, I am having a lot of difficulty deciding if he is town or scum. If I had to guess, I would say he was town simply because there are three players I suspect more than him (FakeGod, SpyreX, and jmurph). However, he is a close fourth guess.

My Read:

Neutral

Cogito Ergo Sum:

Another player that I think is town. I completely understand the reasons for his vote for Casus Belli despite not currently agreeing with the conclusion. I also get the impression that he doesn't care what people think about him. My only problem with him is that he seems to be tunneling a bit, but I am pretty confident that he is town.

My Read:

Town

Substrike22:

I can't get a read on him.

My Read:

Neutral

Reckamonic:

I think he's town. I haven't agreed with all of his points and they haven't actually posted much despite having two heads, but they do take strong stances which I like.

My Read:

Town

Casus Belli:

At the end of day 1, I suspected Casus Belli a lot, however after further consideration these past few days, I've been beginning to think otherwise. My reasons for suspecting Casus Belli are due to their attacks of me, RichardGHP, and CES, plus their posting style which seems strange to me. The attacks for me and RichardGHP I don't like because the reasoning seemed weak imo plus they felt opportunistic. The attack for CES looked bad for many reasons. Casus Belli didn't give the reasons for the original suspicion until after CES voted them. It looks OMGUSy. Let's take a look at the reasons for the suspicion...

1. He switched his vote to me when it looked like the Shotty bandwagon had the most momentum and the RichardGHP bandwagon appeared like mostly RVS bandwagoning.
2. He supposedly chainsaw defended RichardGHP.

I don't even understand what the first point means and the second point is inaccurate (you can't chainsaw defense isn't a scumtell if it is on a townie). I would like you to explain this attack. The posting style seemed strange to me because it consisted of many questions but not a lot of thoughts. However, looking at xvart in other games, it seems like this is just his normal playstyle as town.

Overall, I'm beginning to think they're town. OMGUS and bad attacks are not necessarily scumtells, and after reading them in iso I get the impression that they actually believe in their attacks.

My Read:

Town

jmurph3:

I'm thinking she's scum. Originally, I wasn't all convinced by q21's point against her, but after taking a closer look at her defense, I wish I had given her more attention. She originally said that she suspects me more because I got more agitated when my arguments were supposedly shut down which she said looked like cornered scum. However, later she keeps her vote on Shotty instead for something else. When questioned, I think jmurph realized she was caught in a contradiction, because she retracts her earlier point against me and now says:

So instead, I left my vote where it is because I think it's much more interesting to note the connection between you and Shotty, and something that I would prefer to explore more before I move my vote elsewhere, especially since

my read on mas is a gut-read, and I don't typically hold much with my gut.

The bolded part shows that jmurph has apparently forgotten the point she had against me. Before she had said she had a point against me that wasn't gut, but now she's saying she suspected me more than Shotty simply because of a gut feeling. Also, she says she doesn't hold much with her gut. If that's the case, why did she give me an FoS?

Later at the beginning of day 2 jmurph says this:

At this point, I'd most be willing to go with the people on the wagon, since I have a better read on those. Of those, I'd be most willing to vote Spyrex. For, you know, the giggles. Off the wagon, the most likely scum to me is Mas, for a variety of not good play D1.

Which contradicts her suspicion of me that was solely due to her gutfeeling which she also says she doesn't hold much with.

Lastly, her voteswitch from SpyreX to Shotty due to a reread. I thought it through, and even if she did reread the thread and change her mind, it was still a big jump to go from SpyreX to SpyreX's main suspect.

My Read:

Neutral/Scum

---

Summary:

Scum

FakeGod
SpyreX
jmurph
Shotty
Substrike
Nachomamma
Casus Belli
Reckamonic
Cogito Ergo Sum

Town

[masfloohinev]

So, do you guys want to respond to the points against you? I didn't make that post for it to be ignored.

[masfloohinev]

Mas, what do you think of Substrike's willingness to switch his vote from you to Richard, since you were both scum together anyways?

I didn't notice this. Looking back, I think his switch from me to Richard looks a bit opportunistic. It was so early in the game that he still could've tried to convince people to vote me, and it seemed like he suspected me much more.

What do you think of post #167?

As others pointed out, his reason for voting SpyreX was inaccurate, but I still don't know if I believe his explanation or not.

Like I said I don't feel bad in the slightest about throwing a hammer. I'm not stoked at seeing it coming and tsk,tsking instead of claiming but so it goes.

Why didn't you ask for a claim before hammering?

@mas: 1) You say I went from "suspecting him a bit" to "Richard is scum." In the first post you linked, I made my vote on Richard official, if you didn't realize. I already believed he was scum from the first post you linked, and I didn't change my mind suddenly, contrary to what you're saying.

In the first post I linked, you said:

Of course, the alternative is that we caught 2 town, and scum are fueling both sides, but nevertheless, I'm going to stay with my original vote till further developments.

Why would you say that you would keep your vote until further develops if you already thought he was scum?

5) Seeing that I voted and defended my vote on Richard which eventually resulted in his lynch, I'd say I'm playing Mafia.

Reread the point:

Lastly, FakeGod has brought

hardly any points

up against players and has given us

hardly any reads

to work with. He's been useless.

From memory, you've given one read this whole game (your scumread of Richard) and one point (a counterwagon forming after Richard's indicating that he's scum).

And if I didn't give you any reads, how did you come up with all these points above?

Contradiction.

I never said you didn't give any reads. I said you gave hardly any. Points 1 and 2 revolve around your read of Richard. Point 3A doesn't revolve around a suspicion. Point 3B revolves around your vote for SpyreX, but you never actually say that you find SpyreX suspicious. In fact, I'm not 100% if you actually suspect him or not. Point 4 doesn't revolve around a suspicion. So, yes, it is possible for me to have points against you despite you not having many reads. There's no contradiction.

Suspecting SpyreX for hammering isn't scummy in and of itself - it's just opportunistic.

How is suspecting SpyreX opportunistic? I think there are only 1-2 people that actually showed suspicion of him before me if any.

Oh, and mask;jk;in's vote on FakeGod is eerily similar to his suspicions on SpyreX and Shotty in 195. He pops up, cast suspicion, then just goes "Hey I'll explain later".

I've given reasons now, so what is the problem?

He wants FakeGod to show games where he saw a counterbandwagon rise against scum. Is this a serious request? Because this is a pretty fucking common thing, and we don't think we need to see any at-length examples for most of us here to agree that this happens often.

Okay... Thinking about it, that probably wasn't a good question, but I guess my point is that a counterwagon occurring could be rescuing a townie also and it is just as likely that the person being saved is town as they are scum if not more likely.

Oh, and his 'scumslip' that he found on FakeGod is weak - people include themselves in the numbers all the time. Had he said 2/6 instead of 2/7, you'd be saying he's scum for exactly the opposite reason.

I believe he should be taking his allignment into consideration when writing those numbers because if he's town, he's the only person he knows is town, and therefore should be scumhunting with that knowledge in mind. FakeGod, you say 2/7 isn't much more than 1/3, so why did you bring up the statistic in the first place?

[masfloohinev]

jmurph, if you don't hold much with your gut, then why did you give me an FoS for a gutfeeling?

[masfloohinev]

Casus Belli's point on Shotty opened our eyes a bit, and mashnvielfoo's points against FakeGod are quite convincing. We support a Shotty lynch or a FakeGod lynch first, with a mashnvilei381nv lynch at a distant third. Just because he makes good points doesn't mean he's not bussing. He's actually very good at it.

Weren't you just questioning my points a page ago?

[masfloohinev]

Unvote. Vote: Shotty

I'm bored. Something needs to happen. I need to see a flip from one of my top suspects.

This is L-1.

[masfloohinev]

Where's Shotty? I am of the opinion that he should claim now.

[masfloohinev]

Unvote. Vote: FakeGod

I don't want to lynch somebody getting replaced, and FakeGod's the only alternative and the one I would prefer to see lynched anyway.

[masfloohinev]

*sighs* Why in the world would I keep my vote on somebody getting replaced? Please explain that to me.

Secondly, I switched my vote to FakeGod in particular, because he

is

my top suspect and he has the biggest bandwagon apart from Shotty who I don't want lynched because he is getting replaced. Tell me, if you think my vote for FakeGod was opportunistic, then what do you think was the scum motivation for me switching off of the Shotty bandwagon, a player that had more votes?

[masfloohinev]

@Nachomamma, Substrike, and FakeGod - After I gave my analysis of the game, my top suspects were FakeGod, SpyreX, jmurph, and Shotty with FakeGod as my top suspect. I voted FakeGod, but then began getting bored, because I really just wanted to see a flip. The Shotty bandwagon was becoming stronger than the FakeGod bandwagon, so I switched my vote over there. When I found out Shotty was getting replaced, I decided to switch my vote over to FakeGod, because I didn't want to be voting somebody that was getting replaced.

It's opportunistic that mas doesn't switch his vote in post #301, when the Shotty and Fake wagons were the same size and mas's vote switch could've put his top suspect at L-1, but he was more interested in fishing out a claim.

The Shotty and FakeGod bandagons weren't the same size. Shotty's bandwagon had three more votes at that time. Not even close to the same size. I'm not trying to fish out a claim. I just want the day to end with one of my top suspects getting lynched, and having the player that is about to get lynched to claim just so happened to be one of the steps involved in lynching a player.

Scum-mas has no motivation to keep his vote on town-Shotty since he probably won't be lynched (considering he's being replaced and all); he has far more reason to switch to FakeGod, who's far more lynchable.

This makes no sense and seriously makes me question your allignment. If you agree with me that Shotty probably won't be lynched because he's being replaced, then how can you, in the same breath, attack me for unvoting for that exact same reason?

Because you were busing your buddy to gain credibility and then the opportunity presented itself to kill a townie and make it look legitimate, you just failed at doing it. I agree that FakeGod is still suspect, but I don't find it likely that Mas would jump off of a Shotty bandwagon and onto a FakeGod wagon if his intention was to bus someone.

How exactly did the opportunity present itself for me to switch over to the FakeGod bandwagon? It couldn't have been because the size of his bandwagon, because his bandwagon had two less votes.

I feel like we were observing a busing attempt and then when the opportunity to save his scum buddy presented itself, he took it. Although, your idea of an attempt at a quick-lynch seems just as likely; so,

this kind of becomes a WIFOM argument, but none the less, something to think about

. I have a feeling that either Shotty or Fake are scum, because otherwise that transition of vote doesn't make that much sense to me.

So the reason for voting me is actually because of a WIFOM argument that is something to think about. That's great. Also, doesn't this revolve around Shotty being scum? That would mean that lynching Shotty first would be the logical idea.

If I was your top suspect, then why didn't you vote me over Shotty days ago?

I did. Pay attention. Who was I voting before I switched to Shotty?

Okay. SpyreX is town. LlamaFluff is town.

FakeGod and jmurph are scum. Last scum is either Casus Belli or Substrike.

[masfloohinev]

Why? Would either of you care to make a case?

I did. You already responded to it, I just don't believe your defense.

I'll respond to Substrike soon.

[masfloohinev]

1: I buy Mas' point that he was on FakeGod's case before, but most of that case revolved around WIFOM arguments. 2: Plus, his wall of text outlining his reads on every player reads very scummy to me, 3: as does a lot of his play from day one. 4: Plus when most of his defense revolves around saying that he believe's someone's post is "stupid" and not addressing it, well. Scum is scum. 5: The vote was opportunistic, bottom line, in my opinion. The WIFOM part of MY post was regarding your reasons for the quick change, Mas; Either way, it reads scum. 6: There was no reason for you to take that off of L-1. Mas' initial vote on Shotty was extremely convenient, it was a "because I'm bored" post, and it was a nice attempt at busing. Plus with all the day 1 crap between them, with both of them arguing back and forth but not really making any solid points, it was a good attempt at making it seem like one of them was town if the other flipped scum. But all of that is unraveling right now.

1: Um... From memory, only one or two of my points can be considered WIFOM. The rest weren't. Also, you aren't one to talk considering you even admit your vote for me is based on WIFOM:

I feel like we were observing a busing attempt and then when the opportunity to save his scum buddy presented itself, he took it. Although, your idea of an attempt at a quick-lynch seems just as likely;

so, this kind of becomes a WIFOM argument, but none the less, something to think about

. I have a feeling that either Shotty or Fake are scum, because otherwise that transition of vote doesn't make that much sense to me.

2: Explain. I don't think you've given any reasons aside from disliking my FakeGod case.
3: Explain. Most of your reasons for suspecting me yesterday revolved around me defending Richard. Richard flipped town, so those points are pretty much null tells at the least.
4: Even if I had called an argument stupid, I have still tried my best to defend against all the points brought up against me, so I don't see why it matters. Please quote an example of me calling an argument stupid

and

not defending against it.
5: How was my vote opportunistic when it was switching off of a bandwagon that had two more votes?
6: Sure there was. Shotty was getting replaced. He was contributing hardly anything which was my main reason for suspecting him. With another player replacing in for him, it would've given me a better chance to read that slot and I wanted to give the replacement time to catch up.

Also he gave Shotty (my suspected scum buddy for him) a "neutral" read on his "list", and almost every game I've played where a scum has made a "list" he lists at least one scum buddy as neutral. Since I'm one of the others listed as neutral, I know that scum is Shotty.

LOL!!! You are the king of WIFOM...

Tell me, how is

this

very point

not

WIFOM? I could be scum giving neutrals on two townies to trick you. But then again, I could be scum giving a neutral read on my buddy so I could just bring up this argument. But then again... Get the picture?

You seriously need to learn how to scumhunt. You can't accuse me of using WIFOM and do it yourself in the

same

post. Seriously. Learn to scumhunt.

[masfloohinev]

Oh but it's not. You're giving off all sorts of scum tells. I've highlighted them. Individually they might not warrant me holding my vote on you. Together they're more than enough for a body of evidence.

I have defended against all your points. Either explain what is wrong with my defense or show me your other points.

I've already explained all the things I needed to. You're attempting to create circular arguments that won't go anywhere. You need rope. The only point above worth discussing is point 3, so I will. The fact that he flipped town only makes me more suspicious of you. Everyone else recognized his scummy behavior (up until his "breadcrumb" claim) and then you were like "oh maybe not". Know something we don't?

When did you mention the circular arguments point? That is the first time you've mentioned that. An example would be nice. You bring up all these inaccurate points and don't explain them or give examples. Your case is terrible. You don't know how many times that other point has been used against my main. It is so fricking annoying. Is it really

so

unusual for a player to have a town read on a townie? Is it really

so

unusual for a player to actually be good enough at this game to think that somebody about to get lynched is town? We aren't the same player. We can have different reads. There was no good case against Richard. Period. End of story. You are only just grasping at straws, coming up with new, stupid, irrelevant points. You can't have your cake and eat it: Yesterday your WHOLE case revolved around me defending Richard because you thought Richard was scum. NOW you suspect me for defending him because he was town. How can you use both those points? YOU CAN'T!!! What the heck is my motivation for not supporting the Richard case if I was scum? I didn't try at all to take credit for it. Please quote where I tried to do this.

Your vote was opportunistic onto Shotty, and opportunistic off of it. Your case on your primary vote is bad, and your secondary vote didn't even have a case to follow.

The vote onto Shotty was opportunistic, I'll agree with that, but that was only because I wanted to end the day. Had the bandwagon been on Reckamonic or CES I wouldn't have joined it. I actually did suspect Shotty and expressed my suspicion before it was obvious his bandwagon was stronger. The vote for FakeGod was NOT opportunistic. The fact that you continue to say "opportunistic vote for FakeGod" is just SO DUMB. I have mentioned several times that FAKEGOD'S BANDWAGON HAD TWO MORE VOTES THAN SHOTTY'S, so the vote for FakeGod was not in any way shape or form opportunistic. You haven't explained why it is, you just continue to say it is opportunistic.

TL;DR Your case sucks. You say my whole case for FakeGod was WIFOM when only a point or two could be called such, but nearly all of yours against me

is

WIFOM. You keep bringing up new points without explaining any of them or quoting examples, you don't respond to my defenses and just act like I'm wrong. I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings, but I strongly feel that this case against me is very bad, I think you need to explain your points, explain why my defense is wrong, and stop using WIFOM.

[masfloohinev]

FakeGod needs more votes.

[masfloohinev]

*yawns*

Somebody hammer.

[masfloohinev]

At this point I'm pretty sure the scum are amongst jmurph, Substrike, CES, and Casus Belli. Now that FakeGod is dead, jmurph is my top suspect.

Vote: jmurph

[masfloohinev]

Check sig.

However, I am contemplating with a NK throwing all the cards out to see what shakes loose. Since I'd eat a hat if that was on purpose.

I doubt they would do that. No killing basically gave us the ability to mislynch again without losing.

[masfloohinev]

I agree with mass claiming. It would be better to do it today then during LyLo if we mislynch today.

I'm a VT. I would like if jmurph claimed next.

[masfloohinev]

So, we still need to hear from:

Cogito Ergo Sum
SpyreX
Nachomamma8
Llamafluff
Casus Belli


I think Reckamonic should at least claim who they protected last night. I can't think of any reason for them not to.

[masfloohinev]

I can understand Reckamonic claiming after we've mass claimed. I thought they were saying they weren't going to claim their protection at all. If that's the case, I am confused.

After we've mass claimed, would it be a good idea for Nachomamma to say if he protected somebody last night if he has the power to?

[masfloohinev]

I think that's everybody. Since Reckamonic didn't protect anybody, that means Nachomamma did and he should claim who he protected.

Unvote. Vote: Casus Belli

Because I am a VT. There's no way for me to defend myself other than saying why would there be two investigative roles. If Casus Belli is telling the truth, that means two investigative roles, a JOAT, and a doctor. One of the power role claims has got to be lying imo.

If I'm lynched before I get on again, the scum are jmurph, CB, and CES.

[masfloohinev]

Nacho, three questiobns:
1. Why do you think the hydras are the same allignment?
2. If Llama was scum, would you have died?
3. What are your remaining abilities and the ones you have used already?

The way I see it, when I flip town, there shouldn't be any second thoughts as to who gets lynched next (CB). After that, you guys should lynch jmurph and then CES. This is what I think the plan needs to be at the moment, but I need to hear the answers to those questions from Nacho. They'll probably change my mind. If Nacho is town and he is telling the truth about CB and Reckamonic being buddies, that means that he is scum with only one of CES and jmurph. Of course, Nachoscum is looking more likely too. In which case, I'll still have to make some changes to my list.

[masfloohinev]

I don't see why there would be two investigative roles in addition to a JOAT that seems to have an investigative power. Casus Belli has to be lying. To be fair, I would probably be supporting my lynch right now as well if I didn't know I was town, but I just thought I would bring up that point about Casus Belli. Their explanation for investigating me and not CES again is really bad also, and isn't a logical town thought process.

However, we should at least see how Nachomamma answers those questions first? Each of those answers is very important and we need to hear each of them before we end the day. We need to know why Nacho thinks Reckamonic and CB are buddies in case he dies tonight, because when CB flips scum tomorrow, you won't know if Reckamonic is actually also scum or not. We also need to know if his night action last night confirms Llama as town for the same reason. Knowing his remaining abilities can help us coordinate night actions tonight.

Reckamonic, chill out. We've got plenty of time. We've got absolutely

NO

possible reason to end the day right now. Only scum have motivation to end the day today. There are many important things we still need to discuss/establish before we go to night. We need to hear Nacho's answers to those questions and we need to discuss possible night actions for tonight.

[masfloohinev]

Why shouldn't we hear the answers to my second and third questions directed at Nacho?

[masfloohinev]

LlamaFluff, I like your suspicion of jmurph, but just ftr, I already gave my stance on jmurph. Your case was pretty much the same/didn't change my read. And as for calling for FG hammer and voting jmurph today, FG was getting more support yesterday, but him flipping town meant jmurph was almost definitely scum. Doesn't matter though: I'm going to flip town. Do you have anything to say about my points against CB?

I still don't understand why we shouldn't discuss night actions. For example, if Nachomamma has a protective ability and knows that you are town, we could have him protect you and Reckamonic protect him or something like that, to keep the confirmed innocents in the game. The way I see it, Nachomammascum shouldn't even be considered, because scum probably wouldn't no-kill just to confirm him, when they could just go to LyLo and win immediately.