Mini 1062 - The Lies of Locke Lamora (game over!)

[ThAdmiral]

confirm'd

vote: macavitylock, because if I'm not mistaken Macavity is the evil cat in cats...

(my girlfriend made me watch it)

[ThAdmiral]

What I meant to say was

vote: macavitylock

[ThAdmiral]

I'm still here, I've just been busier lately than I thought I was going to be. I will read through and post my thoughts later today.

[ThAdmiral]

These are a few things that jumped out at me in the reread

vote: Furcolow

If we have a dayvig, this guy should be shot.
Otherwise can we please lynch him?

Were you serious here?
If so why?

About the question I asked about who had played with Jack before. I thought it'd be interesting to play with someone elses meta for day 1. Jacks has the best Day 1 meta to kick day 1 off with. I know because I was playing day 1 with Jack and everyone was like 'oh that's just Jack'. So I read a few of his day 1's. He only lasted 1 day in the game I played with him though, . I just thought it'd be funny if everyone played with someone elses meta for a day. It'll kick off discussion megafold which is pro-town but I suppose it'll bring about a lot of confusion which is anti-town.

Anyway:

Adopting meta of: Jack

What?
I agree with people that this seems to be just a way to disguise your own way of play (however you haven't really ended up doing this have you).

Why are we using someone else meta??? Sounds odd and weird. What hate yours or something? o_0

My meta isn't a helpful meta to have for day 1. I can't operate in a vacuum. So I'm just throwing caution to the wall and seeing what happens. So yeah, your not far off. The only way I would stop

stealing

this meta is if people thought I was destroying or diluting the flavour. I'm not sure if I am or not. At the moment you could argue that it was apt. Then again, I haven't read the book.

What is your day 1 meta (or playstyle, which I think is a better word for what you are talking about)? What is jacks? Why do you think adopting his would have been helfpul for the town?

Ooh! Idea! Instead of wasting the first X days with setup speculation and game theory, let's lynch us some scum!

The best discussion is not forced it happens naturally. And, yes, this can arise from speculating about the setup.
Also setup specualtion is a normal and healthy part of any game. If you don't agree with this you simply don't know what you are talking about.

Okay jenni is probably town.

DDD is too active in this game to be scum. I am 100% serious about this.

For both of these: can you elaborate?


As far as location claim goes I am against it as I doubt it would help town any more than mafia and I am generally against unnecessary claiming.

[ThAdmiral]

The only time I played with you, you replaced into a scum slot, super-defended an obvious scum, and replaced out after the scumbuddy got lynched. Another player had to replace in and take the fall for you, and your entire scumteam collapsed after the first scum lynch.

This would imply that he is easy to read, in which case he shouldn't be a policy lynch.

I was kinda intruiged into why some people play like they do. When I played with Jack I didn't know what to make of him. I was his scumbuddy at the time and I thought he had a deathwish at first. Then a couple of people started saying 'oh that's just jack' so I read a few of his day 1's. I sort of get his technique but to play like that you have to play like that all of the time (meta). So in order to learn the techniques I thought I'd try them on Day 1 of this game as if all else fails I can just revert back. It did and I have. The only bit's where I've actually played like Jack is where I have quoted Jack (all quotes came from games where he was town). I didn't get any responses from those, that's the main reason it failed and I reverted back. In response to the question about what are both our playstlyes we're pretty much the polar opposites of eachother. He'll happily say things that might get himself in trouble and tilt back and forth on the risk/reward scale. I'll generally play as towny as I can and keep myself off anyone's scumdar. I do a bit of scumhunting but I don't voice any findings unless they are major. The rest I just take note on. So I end up being quite quiet and boring day 1.

This actually makes sense. I have never played with Jack but he seems an interesting character.
It is, of course, more difficult to change your meta when you want to simply because you already have an established one. If you truly desire to change it, or try other playstyles, I would suggest you not say what you are doing and just do it. You will probably get lynched a few times in the early days for erratic behaviour but then that will become your meta. However if you play the way you do naturally then that is probably because that style is best for you/you are best for it.

[ThAdmiral]

I buy palmers claim and believe he is town. After considering his earlier play I also believe doing something odd and risky is behaviour less likely to be exhibited by scum.

Haven't read paramas monster post yet. Hopefully will comment on it later.

[ThAdmiral]

he is lying because I am a power role and I was not informed of him

What? Power roles generally aren't told of all the other power roles.

unless only some power roles know who he is. plus roleblocker typically is scum. I know it can be town.

Roleblocker is 50/50. Why do you think power roles normally informed about all other power roles.

[ThAdmiral]

So you claim that [some] power roles need to know where people live and that scum probably only know where they live so they would've been able to target specific locations and NOT specific people; you advocated a plan to out that information which would've enabled scum to target specific threats instead of the scattershot method they'd have to employ now with no gurantee of success given what you're arguing. We've played together before palmer, I know you're no fool so I can't believe that'd you'd be so willing to hand so much useful information to scum without you being one of them.]

This is twisting of the facts somewhat. If scum wanted to, as you say, target specific threats (and here I assume you mean certain power roles like cop or doc or what have you) they still won't know who these people are just because of their location.

[ThAdmiral]

Stop me if I'm wrong but the duke was just a sample role, right?

@ ddd: I see your point. This does rely on mafia abilities being based on location rather than targeting people but this may well be the case.

@ palmer: I know this has been asked of you a number of times now but can you please give flavour reasons for your claim.

[ThAdmiral]

I'm the Thiefmaker. I send out orphan thieves to a location at night to deter things from happening in that area.

That seems reasonable enough. Why didn't you post this with your claim?

[ThAdmiral]

@ furcolow: what is your proposed scumteam and why?

[ThAdmiral]

I'm the Thiefmaker. I send out orphan thieves to a location at night to deter things from happening in that area.

That seems reasonable enough. Why didn't you post this with your claim?

ThAdmiral is not paying attention; move him from the not enough information portion of my list to the scummy portion of my list.

What have I not been paying attention to? And how does this make me scummy?

@ furcolow: what is your proposed scumteam and why?

skyquiem's slot/palmertrou/parama

why? gut.

Well don't expect (a) your theory to be correct, and (b) anyone to listen to you.

Enough has happened in this game that gut just doesn't cut it anymore.

palmer's been a little bit better lately, now that he's been taking things much more seriously since his full roleclaim, but his case on furcolow seems very forced and as furcolow himself said, a lot of it really is stretching things, especially his second point(the one about feigning ignorance because he actually is scum). Don't know how he'd come to that conclusion, it makes no sense to me.

Right now out of those two, I'm more inclined to lynch palmer, as I have more scummy vibes from him. I'd maybe be suspicious of furcolow if palmer turns up town, but otherwise he looks fine to me.

This sounds an awful lot like setting up a chain lynch to me.

[ThAdmiral]

@ furcolow: this sort of behavior does not help if you are indeed town.

[ThAdmiral]

I will put a vote on the scummiest player in my mind, currently speaking.

vote: palmer

.

Reasoning?

@ benmage: I would have said no to a rudeboy lurker vote, but his recent and somewhat convenient reappearance just before deadline coupled with an opportunistic wagon vote means I am happy to vote for him or furculow.

for now

vote: rudeboy

@ michelsableheart: I believe palmer is town so I will not support his wagon.

[ThAdmiral]

@ThAdmiral- Distracting town with Jack meta issue, his claim and very defensive acting afterwards,

the direct lie i caught him in

While I admit I don't know the exact circumstances regarding the game Jack is in, I hardly think the "lie" that you found has any bearing on palmers alignment. A lie about role or night-actions or something is one thing but this seems to be something else entirely.

interesting to note palmer and skyquiem, my other scumspects, aren't on the palmer wagon

Well palmer's hardly going to be on his own wagon. Do you even read what you write?

[ThAdmiral]

I think furculow just does this to get an impressive post count. I'm serious. I don't even think

he

believes the stuff he is spouting. If he did he wouldn't have waited until now to post his "revelatory" "reinterpretation" of posts by parama, sky and palmertrou (post # 293).

I reckon he read somewhere (probably something by Albert B. Rampage) that a good strategy is to focus in on one person or one group and be as aggressive as you possibly can, and is now just doing exactly that. The chances of the best mafia player ever pegging an entire scumteam day one is about 0 and Furc is certainly not the best mafia player ever.

[ThAdmiral]

Some players (Vi comes to mind immediately) refuse to break town play until a mod has officially has confirmed game end.

This is true. I know I don't reveal anything as scum until the mod has confirmed I am lynched.

I think the problem was the whole meta thing was really annoying people right from the start.

This is also true. I think people got a bit too caught up in/distracted by this and it left negative connotations on palmer all throughout the day.

[ThAdmiral]

Also I am pretty sure the action on me came from town due to the flavor involved.

2 town roleblockers? Possible, but unlikely.

[ThAdmiral]

Debonair Danny DiPietro:Very similar to MSh, at least in regards to palmer, in that he was very consistent in his attacks on him and used similar reasoning. I feel he's been a helpful player so far, though he has done a couple things I don't understand(

calling ThAdmiral suspicious with no real explanation

), and his post-hammer post could have been him justifying a mislynch, though probably not, since it was consistent with his thoughts on palmer. Not as sure about him as I am about MSh, but I'd still consider him town right now.

Undercontribution (though this wasn't well articulated) plus the fact that he wasn't reading the thread for content (ISO 13+14). Frankly the fact that you call the second point "no real explanation" suggests the same about you (not reading for content).

I think it means, as you say, that your point wasn't well articulated - so no one had any idea what you were talking about.
I still don't if I'm being honest.

As far as your post is concerned, it all seems very...vanilla. Very uncontroversial. You make a lot of points, but cover it up in flimsy language. You state a lot of people who are "probably scum" or "probably town" but don't really push the issue any further. Your reads on just about everyone could be summarised with "oh well, they could be scum, but they could be town" which is...what everyone's read of everyone is on D1.

This is a bad/unfair interpretation imo.
He is quite clearly stating who he thinks are town and who he thinks are scum without pretending to be sure of himself.

--Explain this statement:

Palmer adopting Jack's meta just serves as a distraction, though only one that

the town

made it into. Should've just ignored it.

ISO 17 reads like your personal game notes, so yeah...that statement stands out.

The town as a whole, IE every player in this game. I was excluding myself in that statement because I wasn't helping palmer distract the town.

I'm not so sure. That could well be a slip. You've just gone well up in my scum list.

[ThAdmiral]

Okay, here's the question you need to ask: "Did Parama participate in the stupid jack-meta discussion palmer started?" The only time I mentioned it was when I was yelling at palmer to stop. Now then, I can't be included in the group that was discussing the dumb meta thing, right? Then it makes sense to not include myself in the group of people wasting our time, right?
Also, townies can't scumslip.

I understand what you are saying but it did sound a little weird. Slips are often very subtle and I still believe this could be one, but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt for now.

[ThAdmiral]

yo admiral, who are your top 3 scumspects?

I don't really have a top 3.
rudeboy is my number one for lack of contribution + jump on the palmer wagon yesterday, coupled with asking parama about his role and imo bad reading of coach travis post today.
After that there are a few like parama, jenniwren, skyquiem that have piqued my interest more than others but I don't believe there is a solid case on any of them.

[ThAdmiral]

ThAdmiral's latest post wasn't as strong as I'd like, only calling one person scum and not voting them,

calling others interesting but not even suspicious.

I'm a little less sure about him, but he's still not one of my main suspects.

Oh I'm suspicious of them, I just don't believe the cases on them are very strong.
I admit that I am finding this game particularly hard to read.

[ThAdmiral]

And do you plan on doing anything today that might actually help you read other players or gain information or do you plan to continue to laze about and only meeting the bare minimum of requirements?

I didn't know there were "requirements".

As far as a plan going forward...well I guess it can't hurt to put forth the cases I have, even if they are weak, as plainly as I can and go from there.

Expect a post later today.

[ThAdmiral]

a2rudeboy

rudeboy is my number one for lack of contribution + jump on the palmer wagon yesterday, coupled with asking parama about his role and imo bad reading of coach travis post today.

To add to that he pretty much only went on about the jack-meta gambit as his main argument against Palmer.
Question: where are you at today? We haven't heard much from you. Who are your suspicions etc.

Parama

Potential slip referencing others as "the town". Extremely furclow-centric: asking a vig to kill him in his very first post and has argued with him almost constantly since.
Question: one odd thing I found as I was rereading is that you were voting skyquiem for a fair portion of day 1 and seemed to have suspicions of her, but when you put up your scum list later you said: "The scumteam is: jenni, Furc, a2rudeboy" (post 280). Why no skyquiem?

Jenniwren

Hesitated to hammer palmer and then did the really long explanation post for voting palmer; basically over-cautious play and could be read as scum knowing they are hammering a town and not wanting to cop flack the next day. Also tends to get a bit defensive when attacked, mainly during day 2.
Question: in post 141 you say "I voted Palmer for two reasons. 1) I think the whole meta thing was anti-town, and 2) I wanted to see if my shadow would also vote for him. (He did.)". I assume you are talking about furculow, as he was the only person who voted after you, but can you explain the whole shadow thing?

Skyquiem

Constant, potentially suspicious, disappearances - especially when she was starting to feel heat. Blamed farcry for omgus voting when she herself was guilty of omgus - so hypocrisy. Seemed to get over defensive at times. Accused benmage of not contributing much - so hypocrisy. Seemed flustered when palmer voted her.
No point in any questions as she seems to have disappeared.

As I've said before a2rudeboy is the one I am most sure of.

vote: a2rudeboy

[ThAdmiral]

Hammering someone without letting them claim is scummy. I mean, it's not guaranteed he wouldn't have been lynched anyway, but it's better to at least give someone a chance, instead of ending the day way too early(we had over a week left).

This. At the very least he might have provided us with some information from his role that could have helped and some final comments that also could have helped.

[ThAdmiral]

Not to mention by hammering when you did it meant we never got to hear charters thoughts on this game as he's dead now. Seems like something scum would do if they were afraid of what someone might say.

Vote: parama

[ThAdmiral]

@ddd: instead of just posting pictures why don't you tell us about this "stuff" you alluded to earlier.

[ThAdmiral]

@ddd: alright. But seriously what where the ideas that you were talking about before.

unvote

*waits for don johnson*

[ThAdmiral]

I'll just post 10 times today to prove I'm not scum. I suggest all other townies do the same. *rollseyes*

[ThAdmiral]

@ parama: your wall-of-text arguments with jenni are long and hard to read. If you put your case forward simply and efficiently I promise to consider it.

[ThAdmiral]

has anyone considered the idea of a third party? can anyone with flavor knowledge give us an opinion on that? as far as i can tell ben is not dead.

Third party is a possibility. Capa Barsavi, for example, was essentially a mob boss in the book but was part of Camorr, so if that character is in the game he could be self aligned. But I highly doubt Capa Barsavi would have the power to "gentle" - wouldn't make much flavor sense at all.
And as far as benmage goes...given that he is "gentled" then he is probably as good as dead. People and animals who are "gentled" in the book are still alive but are basically brain dead.

@ parama: so you have nothing to add to the case that you made day 1 against jenni?

@ jenniwren: what is your case against parama, simply and concisely?

[ThAdmiral]

Thats pretty fucking convincing actually. I am officially in favor of a parama lynch.

[ThAdmiral]

I've been assuming that a2rudeboy's role triggered whatever happened to BM.

And yes, BM's town.

Flavor pretty much tells you that.

oh, yeah, blame flavor
i didnt fucking know he was town
he was janitored
i am glad you can be so fucking sure of it
we really need to lynch parama

*is a member of the Gentlemen Bastards and as such assumes all Gentlemen Bastards characters are town*

I don't know a thing about the flavor but I'm assuming this from what someone said earlier.

Yeah, I think its safe to say the gentleman bastards are town. Jean Tannen was Locke's right hand man in the book so I don't see any way he could be scum.

Wait, are you saying

you

are a gentleman bastard? This changes things.

[ThAdmiral]

Well since Jenni has disappeared.

I am Galdo Sanza.

[ThAdmiral]

Least likely claim: ddd. Stephen Reynard is a character but a minor one.
Most likely claim: parama. There's no reason why all the gentleman bastards wouldn't be in this game and furthermore no reason they wouldn't be town.

Coach: potential 3rd party. In which case do not want to lynch.
Furculow + Dj: could be an interesting scum pair contrary to the story ala hermione being scum in Harry potter mafia.

Jenni: hasn't claimed...

[ThAdmiral]

4) I will make a full name and role claim (something I've been debating doing for a while anyway), but I'm going to save my claim just a little bit longer, because I want some more information and reactions to this post first. Try not to be too impatient in the interim.

I realize that you said that.

[ThAdmiral]

coach, if you have someway to confirm yourself then now is the time.

This.

[ThAdmiral]

that wouldnt really confirm anything...
the only time i've seen that ability, it was a scum ability, in mini 1000.

Same. I've only ever seen that ability as scum as well.

[ThAdmiral]

Well the ability would be easy to prove so I believe that.
As for alignment...I'm not sure. It's certainly one of the claims I am most suspicious of.
@ coach: can you explain the flavour for the ability?

[ThAdmiral]

he is probably capa raza

Agreed, but I don't like the wishy-washy "it's something a powerful person could do, right". I would like his ability explained.

[ThAdmiral]

Here are my reads:

Furculow: sometimes annoying, and can get carried away, but I believe he is town. He comes across as genuine and has always provided info on what his reads are, etc. Do not want to lynch.

Don-johnson: Skyquiem was one of the more suspicious players and dj hasn't exactly set the world on fire. Definitely a potential scum and I would be happy to lynch him, but probably not today.

Jenniwren: I think much has been made of her hammer on palmer, I think too much. Her defensiveness leaves something to be desired but she seems like the type that would react like that regardless of whether she was scum or town. For now I would not want to lynch her but she needs to claim pronto or that will change.

DDD: seems very coldly logical - I understand his reasoning for a coach lynch, but I don't necessarily agree with it. Has never really pinged my scumdar throughout the game. Do not want to lynch.

Coach: Another player that hadn't ever really pinged my scumdar until his claim, which he is trying to use to prove he is town aligned even though it doesn't. Would be ok with his lynch but I believe there are better targets...

Parama: ...such as this guy. The hammer was ultra-scummy imo, plus you've got the constant mud-slinging today. Regardless of this, however, there's the fact that when he was voting jenni

one of them had to be scum

(if they were both town scum would have jumped on and wagoned jenni to death). I wasn't sure which one was scum until he switched his vote to me - now I know it is him (once again if he was town scum would have jumped on and wagoned me to death). Obviously I am happy to see him lynched, so...

vote: parama

[ThAdmiral]

And in this corner, we have ThAdmiral doing exactly what Coach did in his last post, except this time ThAdmiral is just trying to look good for it, whereas Coach obviously put actual thought into his reads.

More mudslinging. How surprising.
I like how you take anything I do and "creatively interpret" it so it becomes a scum action.

Also I know and have known that both you and jenni are scum, why do you think I've been doing all this mud slinging?

Obviously you don't "know"; apart from the fact that I know I am town, your flip on jenni three posts later proves this. Saying you "know" implies you have some sort of proof but since you don't why lie?

ThAdmiral's still scummy scum though, can we kill him?

More mudslinging...

[ThAdmiral]

ISO 3 is a moderate length post in which ThAdmiral says NOTHING. He questions if my policy vote was serious, he sheeps people's accusations of palmer's meta thing, then asks about palmer's meta, followed by saying that discussion shouldn't be forced in response to me saying that no discussion was happening. And then he ends by questioning my town reads (town don't care about other players' town reads, or at least they shouldn't). There's... nothing there. All the questions are useless, and there's no analysis coming from ThAdmiral.

I admit I was starting behind the 8 ball as I had been v/la for the start of day 1, but I completely do not accept the fact that I said nothing in this post. People were saying some weird stuff and I wanted clarification. Just because I wasn't throwing out accusations and votes (something I know you are very fond of) doesn't mean I wasn't saying anything.

The trend of asking lots of questions but never giving any analysis continues through a lot of his next posts - ISOs 6, 8, 9, and 10. There's prodding for information, yes, but a lot of it is info that doesn't benefit either side - elaboration on a claim and asking others' scumreads - but not giving any reads himself.

ThAdmiral has not taken a stance on a single player at this point in the game

- the most he's done is say palmer is likely town based on his claim, which is weak at best.

Bolding mine. This is such a misrep. In ISO 5 I say: "I buy palmers claim and believe he is town". How is that not taking a stance?
I was also asking questions about more weird stuff that people were saying, namely in this case furculow's bizarre assertion that he hadn't been "informed" of palmertrou and therefore he was lying. I suppose you just wanted me to let that slide?

he doesn't make his first non-RVS vote until ISO 13. And that post is where he first mentions a2rudeboy (ctrl+f his ISO for proof) - and he's already ready to vote him! Seems like scum who knew the palmer lynch was inevitable and so called him town to get town points while then trying to push a mislynch on another easy target.

If you actually read ISO 13 I explain my vote very clearly: "I would have said no to a rudeboy lurker vote, but his recent and somewhat convenient reappearance just before deadline coupled with an opportunistic wagon vote means I am happy to vote for him".
I also love who you take my

correct read

on palmer and then try to make me look scummy for it. Bravo.

ISO 15 - Uh... where to begin. The entire post is trying to discredit Furcolow while also making a weak attack on him. THEN he tries to bring up another player's game theory and uses it as an argument to suspect him. It comes off as weak at best and having to reference the reason as SOMEONE ELSE'S makes it seem like you don't fully believe it yourself.

I don't see what is weak about bringing up someone else's game theory. If I said it was mine I would have been taking credit for something I didn't have anything to do with (and for your information I

don't

believe the theory is a good one). For those of you that don't know Albert B. Rampage had/has a fairly popular theory that states that if you want to lynch someone just keep going after them relentlessly in every post you write even if you have no proof. It can be surprisingly effective, but it means that if you are wrong you can end up derailing the entire town.

Also I am pretty sure the action on me came from town due to the flavor involved.

2 town roleblockers? Possible, but unlikely.

How did you know that it was a roleblock on me? (Well, jailkeep, but it's basically the same thing). I never said it was a roleblock. It could've been plenty of other things. Why did you assume it was a roleblock? Oh, because you're scum with the one who actioned on me, right?

I thought it was pretty clear you were talking about a roleblock, and indeed you were. It was also fairly obvious to benmage at the time - I guess we both must have been the scum roleblocker in your eyes? It certainly couldn't have been the person

who claimed to have jailkept you

, i.e. Jenni...

ISO 18 - "I still don't if I'm being honest." what is that supposed to mean, I can't even tell. Why did you respond to a post directed towards Coach without even letting Coach address it himself? And lol that silly "slip" that is not a slip because it can't be a slip. Haha. Just trying to spread your scummy nonsense everywhere, aren't you?
Oh and in the next post you take the neutral ground and turn it into WIFOM, while still keeping your earlier read on me. Double standards much?

The post was regarding me so I had every right to respond to it. "I still don't if I'm being honest" meant I still didn't understand what he was trying to say. What about that can't you understand?
Regarding the slip, things like that have caught scum before. I wasn't going to pretend I was 100% sure that it was a slip though. How is uncertainty a scum-trait?

ISO 20,

he admits to not having any suspects

. Red flags. Everywhere. He gives some brief reasoning for suspecting the top lynch of the day. He briefly mentions several others and doesn't elaborate. Backtracks in ISO 21, saying he "meant" to say "suspicious" and not just "interesting".

Bolding mine. Another blatant misrep. I clearly stated that a2rudeboy was my number 1 suspect, but after that I didn't really have strong suspicions on anyone else. I didn't backtrack in ISO 21 either: I used the phrase "piqued my interest" to indicate that they were "suspicious" in my eyes. I wasn't interested in their socio-political philosophies, I was interested in them in the scope of the game!

ISO 22 - admits that his cases are weak - THEN FIND ONES THAT YOU ACTUALLY BELIEVE IN.

I believed my cases were weak. I was not about to lie and pretend they were something they were not, or pretend I believed in them more than I actually did. Once again I was uncertain, how is that scummy?

ISO 23 - I really see a lot of IIoA here. Let's see what the post looks like without all the IIoA stuff...
We're back to Weak Questions and No Analysis Hour, folks!
I do find it odd that he references that "slip" again even after WIFOMing that away a few posts before.

Just because I don't post walls of text like you doesn't mean I was only posting IIoA. I tried, like I always do, to be concise and I brought up all the relevant points against all the people in that post.
Also I didn't "WIFOM" away the slip. I always believed it was a potential scumslip. At the time I said I would give you the benefit of the doubt; clearly I shouldn't have.

I'm going to shorten these next few down to the real issues with them because I can and because it's fun.
ISO 24: Baaah let's sheep off of other's reasons.
ISO 25: Time to push a mislynch in LyLo!
ISO 26: Instead of trying to push a weak case, why don't you tell us why you aren't providing any analysis?
ISO 28: *fluff*
ISO 30: Why is the fact that I haven't changed my case a bad thing? Scum on D1 are scum on D3, y'know. Weren't you voting me earlier?
ISO 31: Baaah let's sheep off of other's reasons, again. Weren't you voting me earlier?
ISO 32: How does that change things? If you think I'm scum, then a nameclaim really can't be enough to make you change your mind, right?
ISO 34: So you believe my claim, 100%. Noted for later. I do find it funny that your method of scumhunting is now based solely on nameclaims. Still no analysis at all, of course.
ISOs 35-39: HEY GUYS LOOK AT ME I'M POSTING. IGNORE THE FACT THAT I'M ACTIVE LURKING - HERE'S SOME POSTS!!!! ZOMG!!!!

Just your usual smear-campaign behavior. I've gotten used to it now and am not even going to bother responding to the above.

ISO 40: Let's get this train a rollin'. Fun post to point out scumminess in.

Furcolow: I actually agree with this one. The rest...
DJ: fencesit ho. Come on now, you can do better than that.
jenni: I'mma lynch you if you don't claim, b****. This is the most accurate paraphrase I can think of. Because ThAdmiral says he's willing to sing her praises as soon as she claims.
DDD: Eh... ntohing to say about this, it's just giving a town read. Agree with this too.
CT: I'mma lynch you because of your claim, b****. This one's especially bad, because I haven't seen anything wrong with the claim myself.
Me: Party time! Referring to hammer as scummy, not saying why. Saying mud-slinging is scummy, not saying why. And I was voting jenni when you proclaimed me town in your ISO 34. Why didn't you instavote jenni there? Because you forgot about LyLo dichotomy due to being scum yourself. The very last part is the only thing remotely valid, but you kinda backed yourself into a corner after

Most likely claim: parama. There's no reason why all the gentleman bastards wouldn't be in this game and furthermore no reason they wouldn't be town.

and the fact that you also claim to be a Gentleman Bastard. Need I say more on this subject?

More smear-campaigning. I will respond to a few things here, though.
Firstly I've already explained previously why your hammer was scummy. Mudslinging is inherently scummy as it is not backed up by anything. I had thought you were probably town because of your claim, I admit that was a mistake. I realized that scum must have been given good fake-claims in this game.

ISO 41: First part isn't mudslinging, it's valid logic. You saw Coach put together a list of reads, and figured you'd do the same to try and get some towncred off of it. I've seen the play before - don't just dismiss it as baseless.

I was typing up my list of reads in response to furculow saying: "I would like people to give some reads". It had nothing to do with coachtravis.

Second: You forgot the dichotomy rule already? Let's point out your exact words:

I wasn't sure which one was scum until he switched his vote to me - now I know it is him (once again if he was town scum would have jumped on and wagoned me to death).

This is exactly the same reason I used to say that I know both you and jenni are scum (though in light of recent events I'm thinking we only have 2 scum, or maybe just 3 scum who are all wimps and don't want to attempt a quickhammer). This is exactly what I was referencing when I made this comment. You forgot your own logic that quickly? I'm amazed.

Ok, fair point.

Third: If I stopped saying you were scum, do you think I'd be able to get people to believe me?

We'll never know because I doubt you are going to stop saying it any time soon.

In summary

: Parama's case is built on a platform of lies, misrepresentation, smear-campaigning, mudslinging and the questioning of behavior that is not "inherently scummy" at all.

The counter case against parama doesn't need a wall of text or a pbpa. I can state it pretty simply:
1. The hammer on a2rudeboy:
Scummy as it didn't allow rudeboy to claim. Also scummy because it allowed the scum to silence Charter, a very experienced and generally regarded good player, before he could say anything about the game.
Also note that he had hardly mentioned rudeboy at all day 2. And then when he sees he's -1 he suddenly says: "can't get one scum lynched, might get another lynched", i.e. as opportunistic as it gets.
2. Has been mudslinging against people all game:
Furculow, jenni, skyquiem/dj, a2rudeboy, and me. Mostly just claims that these people are part of the "scumteam" he's made up. Unsurprisingly his "scumteam" has been proven to be false time and time again.
3. The voting jenni and me thing, which has already been mentioned.

And now add...
4. His terrible case against me.

[ThAdmiral]

Oh so now we're deflecting to jenni. I see what you're doing there, scum.

I'm not deflecting to Jenni, she

said that she jailkept you

. Don't you think that is slightly more likely why you were blocked that night than me blocking you and then dismissing the fact that I thought you had been blocked by a second town roleblocker?

The fact that you acknowledge it as WIFOM and then tried to use it as a point against me is what I like least about it.

I don't get your use of the word WIFOM here. My stance on the slip was that it was possibly a slip but not blaringly obvious so I wasn't going to crucify you for it.

Okay, I did kinda word this badly. You have a suspect, but not real suspect

s

. And your strongest case was still weak.

It turned out to be wrong, granted, but I still think it was an ok case.

That's funny, because this is an especially information-rich section of my case. It's incredibly concise and getting straight to the facts. You're really just going to blow that off?

Alright lets look at each one of your "concise" and "information-rich" points:

ISO 24: Baaah let's sheep off of other's reasons.

I agreed with coach. I would have said the exact same thing if I had gotten on first. And I elaborate on my suspicions of you in my next post to which you say:

ISO 25: Time to push a mislynch in LyLo!

My only reply is that it's not a mislynch if it gets scum.

ISO 26: Instead of trying to push a weak case, why don't you tell us why you aren't providing any analysis?

I don't think I was providing a weak case, and furthermore I had provided analysis of your scummy hammer.

ISO 28: *fluff*

I was pointing out that what furculow said was ridiculous, something you also pointed out (because it was ridiculous).

ISO 30: Why is the fact that I haven't changed my case a bad thing? Scum on D1 are scum on D3, y'know. Weren't you voting me earlier?

A lot has happened since D1 I would have thought you would have some new and better reasons to be voting Jenni, but you didn't.

ISO 31: Baaah let's sheep off of other's reasons, again. Weren't you voting me earlier?

She posted a far better case than you did. It reaffirmed my conviction to lynch you.

ISO 32: How does that change things? If you think I'm scum, then a nameclaim really can't be enough to make you change your mind, right?

As I said I was temporarily swayed by the fact you claim to be a gentleman bastard. Given that all the other gentleman bastards that had come up seemed to be town, and I knew I was town gentleman bastard, and given that the gentlemen bastards are the main good guys in the book I didn't think one would be scum. I have since realized scum must have gotten good fake claims.

ISO 34: So you believe my claim, 100%. Noted for later. I do find it funny that your method of scumhunting is now based solely on nameclaims. Still no analysis at all, of course.

I didn't say I believed your claim 100%, but yes I did think it was the most likely at that time. The whole claiming thing did throw me a bit, but you're right in that I shouldn't have focused mainly on that.

ISOs 35-39: HEY GUYS LOOK AT ME I'M POSTING. IGNORE THE FACT THAT I'M ACTIVE LURKING - HERE'S SOME POSTS!!!! ZOMG!!!!

See this is more of your mud-slinging which I am frankly quite sick of. I have only ever been posting my thoughts on the game as I see it. If you want to construe that as "active lurking" or posting so I don't seem scummy, then fine.

Okay, I've back up my suspicions with a case. I've had a case, but was too lazy to present it; I continued to insist that you were scum though. And lo and behold I had the evidence to back it up. So yes, I was mudslinging, but you're lying if you're saying it wasn't backed up by anything.

How was I supposed to know that you were going to back it up with a case, when you hadn't backed it up with a case?

Good job dismissing another concise block of accusations, though. You know that you can't get away with "Your case is crap, but I'm not going to say why", right?

I feel like I responded to all relevant/decent comments in that block of accusations.

I had a2rudeboy on my suspects list for a while.
Not lynching a PR claim just because they claim PR doesn't help since apparently everyone is a PR and mafia are going to claim PRs too.
Also charter is my hero I would never kill him :< /WIFOM

He may have had information/some insight. We'll never know now.
As far as the charter thing that may be the case, but you could have been overruled by your scum partners.

Furcolow is yelling and screaming nonsense, but I don't think I've ever seriously pushed a case on him (maybe voted him for part of D1? I forget.) Skyquiem seemed like the only valid alternative to a palmer lynch, and palmer looked quite town to me, so I pushed that lynch. I already gave reason on jenni, and I have given reason on you as well. Did you know that town can be wrong, too? Because 1 of my scum reads has flipped town, therefore all my scum reads are wrong? Where did you make that assumption? The only think I've seen proven wrong is my read on a2rudeboy. None of my other suspicions have flipped, and with the way you guys keep voting I doubt they ever will be and scum will coast to an easy victory. And I'll blame ya'll when you see ThAdmiral's name in red in endgame.

The problem is you may have put forward cases every now and then but the majority of the time you just say "this person is so obviously scum" or "this is the definite scumteam" so anything else that you have to say is lost in the sea of tripe.

My case is FAR from terrible. It's probably the most solid case thus far. And I even BSed half of it, like I said I would.

I don't see how admitting that half of your case is BS is supposed to convince anyone...

[ThAdmiral]

I'm sorry everyone. I

really

hate walls of text, but I feel compelled to meet parama head-to-head.

[ThAdmiral]

I thought I was going to be lynched for sure. You totally had me pegged parama, my only hope was to clog the thread up with huge posts to stall enough for someone else to reach scumwagon threshold.

Btw even if I had been lynched I still think we would have won as hardly anyone suspected ddd.

Anyway good game. Thanks for hosting, Locke, and if you have any more lamora themed games I totally pre-in!

Ps. I really wasn't the scum rb. I'm pretty sure we didn't have one.

Pps. Don't be too hard on yourself coach, you had to make a call and this time you were wrong but that's mafia. I've been wrong more times than I can count.

[ThAdmiral]

Yeah that would have to be one of the most amazing unstoppable kill-shots ever.

For the record I do feel really bad about killing charter though. He replaced in and had probably spent quite a bit of time reading up etc. and then he died. I would hate it if it happened to me.
So... sorry for that Charter if you are reading.