Mini #1007 (Game Over)

[Elleran]

Sup, everyone! gl hf. Good game to all.

Hey Vel! Nice to see you as a player and not as my mod.

[Elleran]

@Hoopla: your avatar looks little painful..

[Elleran]

First off, on an unrelated note.. @AGar: It's just a dark templar. I'm planning to change it to a high templar when I get the chance.

Okay, to the game.

The early PGO claim seems odd. I've personally played with PGO before in real life games, and in most of those games, the PGO, even after a no-cc, early claim, ends up getting shot or killing a doctor or cop accidentally. The reason why PRs target the potential PGO is because Hoopla could be a VT (or even cop) just claiming PGO for safety. In my past life games, I have learned that early claims of PGO is a pro-town move. However, seeing AGar's argument that Hoopla has fake claimed before, I can't trust her so easily. I'm not persuaded to vote yet, but

FoS Hoopla

.

#2, I feel like a disproportionate amount of today's discussion will revolve around you now. I find myself agreeing with AGar that you might've better served town by claiming later in the day, after we already had some discussion under our belts. I'm worried that we'll all get distracted by your claim, when we need to scumhunt elsewhere. Thoughts?

This will probably be the case. Unless some other spectacular event happens today.

Here's something else to consider -- AGar and I just got out of a game where he was scum. He and his partner managed to win by convincing a townie that my claim was a gambit. He could be trying to pull the same trick again. Gambits do exist, of course, but the reason that they work is because a straight play is much more likely.

So both of the accusations are coming from known fake-claim/manipulators. >.<

[Elleran]

I'm not sure I understand the wagon on Hoopla. I can see reason to question whether or not the claim is optimal, but I'm having a hard time seeing how a claim like this would benefit scum. Has scum even historically fake-claimed PGO ever?

Like I've said, I've player plenty of games in real life where the scum has fake-claimed PGO. It's one of the easiest role to fake claim since other players will be too scared to shoot or detect/investigate the fake-claimer. It's quite effective when it works.

@drmyshottyizsik: Why would you not read what new things happened? What if you accidentally cast a hammer vote thinking that it was an L-2 vote? Besides, the claim was the first post posted today, which means you should have read it.

lol... This game is actually pretty interesting since the idea of any RVS got thrown out the window as soon as the game started.

[Elleran]

WARNING! WARNING!

Scum

Village Idiot detected!

Seriously though, wtf. I don't even know how to respond to such blatant excuses, scrambling, and lies. At first I thought, "it's scummy," then I was like, "nah, it's just a VI." But really it's not just VI ... it's stupid scummy.

If he is a VI, then we should not be lynching him right now. If by the end of the day, the read on drmyshottyizsik is solidified as a VI, then as the town and scum both have the responsibility to kill him. Thus, if drmyshottyizsik is still alive by the next turn, I saw we lynch him then.

[Elleran]

True.. We'll give scums 2 turns to shoot the VI. I don't think vig (if he/she exists) should shoot the first turn though. Not shooting will force the scums to shoot the VI for their own safety.

[Elleran]

Hoopla, your tactic will undoubtedly attract townie power roles to you now that you unclaimed. I'm not so convinced your breadcrumb tactic. That could have been planned whether you were a town or scum.

[Elleran]

Hoopla, your tactic will undoubtedly attract townie power roles to you now that you unclaimed. I'm not so convinced your breadcrumb tactic. That could have been planned whether you were a town or scum.

Sounds like scum trying to shoo the PR's into the corner on dear old Hoopla, so it stays off him. The point of the claim was to generate information in the day, you know, the only thing most of us townies can actually control.

Elleran, drop a vote on someone. Who are you most suspicious of?

First, your explanation sounds like it exempts AGar from your suspicions. Because you and AGar have played a game (or more) together before, you guys can easily read each other's meta and understand each other's strategy without direct PM or communication.

Second, I support lynching liars. I cannot disagree on your point that your claim/unclaim has brought many valuable discussion into place. However, I do not want to risk having a suspicious character in any LyLo situation. I understand this is a far-in-the-future argument, but lynching early poses less risk than later.

Third and finally, I support gonnano in his opinion on town having flexible mindset as well. I always try to play with an open mind, considering all possibilities. Perhaps some town characters might be more closed and some scums to be open/flexible, you cannot possibly assume that that is the case for all players. Your overarching assumption thus ceases to be a logical point but an opinionated assertion.

Vote Hoopla

[Elleran]

Elleran, trying to push the Lynch-All-Liars PL is scummy right now. Really. He has breadcrumbing to back it up, and while it's not the most attractive way of getting reads, I will admit it's getting the job done.

I don't think ALL liars are deserving of being lynched. I have already admitted that there were clear merits and successes that Hoopla's fake-claim have brought. I support lynching Hoopla because of the reason that she has clarified for me. I basically find Hoopla the most dangerous/suspicious character right now.

Actually, I rethought my ideas while I was typing. I was going to accuse Hoopla further, but I realized something.

Unvote

[Elleran]

EBWOPreview:
Elleran's unvote is intriguing.

There are reasons for my unvote. I do not want to specify yet. I will reveal my reasoning (which isn't very exciting) next day, assuming that I survive, of course. Well, one of the reason it because that I realized that my case wasn't well organized. I bit Hoopla, but didn't quite get a good bite as I had hoped, so I let go.

What the hell is with the super-sized votes everyone?

It makes it more noticeable and confident.

[Elleran]

Elleran, I'm confused by your statement that Hoopla and AGar can easily understand each other's strategies. What conclusion have you reached from this?

That was my thoughts on Hoopla and AGar interaction from the beginning of the game. They almost seemed like they had prearranged this argument. I don't know.. They were almost

too

prepared, if that makes sense. But that's beside the point. That was just an observation in my part; not something that I plan to build a case around.

[Elleran]

Claim:

scum

I don't know what to make of this.

[Elleran]

@Elleran: please clarify this statement in 112, "I basically find Hoopla the most dangerous/suspicious character right now."

Like I've already mentioned, I've played many times in real life games where the early PGO claim has been used before. In almost all of them, the claimer turns out to be fake. This being so, I find Hoopla's claim extremely suspicious. However, this being a Forum online mafia, I have harder time trying to read her posts, which made me unvote. Also, her explanation of her action (to promote meaningful discussion) seemed reasonable enough to influence my unvote as well.

@Hoopla: Since Hoopla rather have me explain myself, I unvoted because I weighed the following two in my mind. 1. Your claim reek of fake claim as a scum's protective measure. Perhaps because I play more commonly with PGO in real life and that is why only I seem to have more suspicion and cynic about this. 2. Your claim has indeed caused a great degree of discussion. This fiery discussion is infinitely better than any RVS. To do this, you have accepted a huge risk; an action that scums would avoid from.

When I weighed the two, I have come to a conclusion that you are probably a town. However, I am still puzzled by your unclaim. In all my life games where an unclaim happened, that person turned out to be a bad player, a confused player, or a scum. I can see that you are experienced and not confused. Thus, I have can only see your actions as a clever plan of a scum or a town putting up a great contribution.

That is what I was withholding. It really was a personal weighing of the two possibilities, something that wasn't going to influence the town action by much.

[Elleran]

Idk just bored and this game feels like its going no where.

How can you call a D0 PGO claim boring?

[Elleran]

I'm voting Elleran now because he is inidividually the scummiest player in the game now, and his weak backtracking and flipflopping seems awfully like scum realising he's in a corner that could get illuminated, and wants to shuffle away quietly. His thoughts on my argument with AGar are also bizarre and seem contrived, and like filler - extra things to fill a post, that look like something, but actually isn't. There's a lot of his play that feels like filler - non-commital, non-probing stuff to fill space. I'm hesitant to declare this as active lurking, because his play has been weird enough to be noticable, but his one commitment he made in this game (the vote on me), he withdrew in his next post after I attacked him. This is scum walking on eggshells, trying not to offend.

Why isn't anyone paying attention to accusations being posed against me?

Re: Elleran - His unvote while saying "I have a reason for this, but keep me alive until tomorrow so I can tell you" is uber uber scummy. It's a shame I only have one vote.

I explained my unvote already. If you aren't satisfied with my explanation, then you can vote me. I have nothing else to say about my vote/unvote.

@Hoopla: How has my playing been weird and noticeable yet no one except you has commented on it? Can you explain?

[Elleran]

@Elleran:Two questions. #1 (emphasis mine)

he early PGO claim seems odd. I've personally played with PGO before in real life games, and in most of those games, the PGO, even after a no-cc, early claim, ends up getting shot or killing a doctor or cop accidentally. The reason why PRs target the potential PGO is because Hoopla could be a VT (or even cop) just claiming PGO for safety.

In my past life games, I have learned that early claims of PGO is a pro-town move.

However, seeing AGar's argument that Hoopla has fake claimed before, I can't trust her so easily.

Can you explain the bolded sentence? Specifically, I'm interested in how it interacts with this sentence:

Like I've already mentioned, I've played many times in real life games where the early PGO claim has been used before. In almost all of them, the claimer turns out to be fake.

The first post was a typo that I didn't catch. The second quote you made is correct. If you reread the post where the first quote came from, you can see that the sentence with the typo is inconsistent with the rest of the paragraph.

[quote="redtail896]#2: Do you believe that the following 2 paragraphs are contradictory in any way?

Second, I support lynching liars. I cannot disagree on your point that your claim/unclaim has brought many valuable discussion into place. However, I do not want to risk having a suspicious character in any LyLo situation. I understand this is a far-in-the-future argument, but lynching early poses less risk than later.

I don't think ALL liars are deserving of being lynched. I have already admitted that there were clear merits and successes that Hoopla's fake-claim have brought. I support lynching Hoopla because of the reason that she has clarified for me. I basically find Hoopla the most dangerous/suspicious character right now.

[/quote]
Not contradictory at all. At the time I posted the first post, I was thoroughly convinced that Hoopla was lying and was a scum who simply claimed for protection. The second post was posted after I unvoted and reconsidered the possibility of Hoopla not being a scum. My past playing involved both townie and scums declaring fake PGOs before, but scums did it much commonly. This brought me to a quick (and perhaps reckless) assumption and conclusion that Hoopla must be a scum.

@Hoopla: I see that many of my posts have been disorganized. However, I refuse to acknowledge that this disorganization was caused by any anti-town intent.
You said that perhaps my unvote was due to your pressure on me immediately after my vote was cast.

That was an unlinked coincidence.

Because I do not check the internet so often, I cannot post what I come up with instantly. I don't know how to convince you out of your assumption that your vote on me is a direct cause of my unvote, but it is not true.

[Elleran]

EBWOP: Excuse my broken quotes xD

[Elleran]

Okay, I reread my post

again

and I guess I was distracted as I typed it. I don't know why I put the however there. Basically, the typo was 'pro-town' is supposed to be 'anti-town.' My 'hard to trust Hoopla' attitude is correct as written.

I'm not making anything up, Hoopla. Incredible or insignificant accidents as this can happen.

[Elleran]

This is your reason for unvoting Hoopla. The thing that most bugs me about this is that you seem surprised that Hoopla's claim has generated a great deal of discussion, yet you claim to have seen this tactic a number of times IRL. Does it not generate discussion there? Does it not also allow bypassing of RVS? And why are you now willing to "risk having a suspicious character in any LyLo situation"? And even after you unvoted, you still find Hoopla the most dangerous/suspicious character in the game? Then why not vote for her?

I wasn't surprised that it caused discussion. It always causes discussion in my experience. I was just surprised by the claim itself because it was the very post that was posted. I didn't expect such a claim so early.

Although I find Hoopla still dangerous and suspicious, my suspicion of her isn't solid. I am willing to single her out as an outstanding player within the group, but I am not confident enough to place a vote. I'm satisfied with watching for now.

[Elleran]

Whoa, I didn't even realize that I had 3 votes already.

[Elleran]

@AGar: Did you just popcorn me for real? or are we not actually mass claiming yet..?

Seriously, the only thing he has done the whole game is say, "lynch VI shotty" and "AGM is scum" while consistently trying to justify himself as little as humanly possible.

I'm aware.

[Elleran]

My turn to claim! I'm not a protection role either.

Popcorn to Hoopla.

[Elleran]

I don't think lynching me is a good idea, gonnano.

Okay, then popcorn to gonnano.

[Elleran]

Are you kidding? -_-
Has Vel get popped yet? Otherwise, popcorn to Vel-Rahn Koon.

[Elleran]

I was reading the thread, but I lost track of where the popcorn started and who had been popcorned.

[Elleran]

Elleran has been scumhunting. It's been almost entirely focused on Hoopla, and it's full of contradictions (see my previous posts/my vote), but it's been scumhunting. Lately he's been slacking off though.

So Elleran...

1) Tunnels Hoopla
2) The arguments in the tunnel aren't good at all
3) And she hasn't even done either of those in over a week

I don't see how you two (redtail and KNK) can defend this.

First, I'm a guy, AlmasterGM.

Now, to answer you:
I did indeed accuse and vote Hoopla before I admitted my case was weak and took off my vote. I also realize that I have been slacking off for the past week, but that was because I was busy in my real life. Sorry about that... >.<

@drmyshottyizsik, Elleran, and Good and Honest

WHO ARE THE SCUM AND

WHY?

I have town reads from AGar as of now. I am and will be suspicious of Hoopla due to her early claim/unclaim. However, I am not sure enough to place a vote yet. And accusing me because I haven't voted seriously isn't a good accusation. Just because I have no vote on anyone doesn't mean that I'm automatically scum.

[Elleran]

Guys! I'm not scum!

[Elleran]

"Elleran, I can perfectly accept your explanation for unvoting Hoopla. However, it's exactly because there is nothing shocking about that explanation that I'm wondering why you wanted to keep it to yourself and only reveal it on Day 2?

There is also something about your response to redtail896 that confuses me. You say: "At the time I posted the first post, I was thoroughly convinced that Hoopla was lying and was a scum who simply claimed for protection". However, at the time you posted that post (where you stated that you supported lynching liars), Hoopla had already unclaimed. Why would you think at that point that Hoopla wanted protection?"

Also, you insist on suspecting Hoopla because of the claim and unclaim. Why? As I explained, basing my explanation on Mini 973, I think Hoopla would have made the "Paranoid Gun Owner" claim here regardless of role - if not for anything else, just to test that theory of what would happen if claiming "Paranoid Gun Owner" right from the start of a game becomes a trend. Did you consider my point?

That's the exact reason why I didn't post. It seemed so insignificant and common that it would sound like a scum making up excuses.

To your second question, even if Hoopla unclaimed, the initial claim has to be considered. Hoopla could be just as easily a scum claiming for protection as he could be a town claiming to promote fruitful discussion. The unclaim doesn't erase what Hoopla said from people's minds.

I suspect Hoopla because her actions were risky. Although I am more convinced (enough to have unvoted) that Hoopla is a VT who has less to lose than a PR because of the way she takes such risk to promote discussion, PGO is a claim that can't really be investigated.

[Elleran]

Elleran, can you briefly summarise why you were lynched Day 1, as town in Newbie 957?

I was lynched for making mistakes (apparently). It was my first game ever on this forum (and online) so I was more prone to making mistakes and looking extra scummy.

Although I made some mistakes, I think the town's reaction was too big. In the end of that game, had I been still in, I would have hammered correctly. I just played badly in the beginning simply due to my inexperience.

Why did you bring this up?

[Elleran]

First, I refuse to acknowledge that my 'fencesitting' is a scummy behavior. I am simply studying the game and I haven't found anyone to sooo suspicious that he must be lynched. I believe that I have not done anything scummy.

However, it seems that the town is strongly geared into a wagon against me. Since the most of the town thinks that I am scum, I will not offer any resistance. No dirty WIFOMS or fakeclaims. No pointing fingers. I see that it is my time to die, and my death is a pro-town move.

I claim VT.

Let is be done.

[Elleran]

Nope, sorry. Not scum here.

[Elleran]

Okay, I will grant Vel's request.

Let's do this: we have just under 37 hours until deadline. Why don't you give us your top 3 with super awesome reasons WHY and that way we can have something to go on tomorrow. If you're as consigned to being lynched as a Town player as you claim you are, then HELP YOUR TEAM - the more info we have the better.

My suspicion list:
1. Hoopla: Her claim has made me doubt her motives. I don't know what her real role is, but give the chance, I want to hammer Hoopla before she reaches LyLo.

2. G&H: Why don't you want to continue the claim? You didn't even continue the popcorn.

3. AGar: You seem to be the person most linked to Hoopla due to your early involvement in the game with her PGO claim. If Hoopla is scum, I think you are as well.

Vote Hoopla

[Elleran]

Unvote