Mini 946 The new Zachtown (Game Over!)

[Vi]

First things first:

Claim Jedi Master Mad Monk Vig Night Kill Immune Chuck Norris

Claim: Pink Power Ranger on her Period

No. Not "Please No". No. I had to read through the original Zachtown where this went on for pages and Town wasted half of D1. I don't want to live through a sequel like that.

*Fun Police patrol car drives off*

--

I actually like the Alex wagon, as far as Page 1 wagons go. All of the people on it are respectable and I know they know what they're doing. Meanwhile Alex isn't acting particularly endearing. I'm tempted to immortalize this game in the Quicklynch Thread, but... *pulls out Fun Police badge*

Lacey, are you suspicious of anyone on the wagon? Should I be more suspicious of anyone on the wagon? And aren't you supposed to be retired?~

Alexithymia, your name sounds familiar. Did someone you know go by the name Reinhart?

---

jeromus's forced vote bothers me.
What also bothers me is that he's excusing Alex for being a dumbass in a game that started ten months or so ago; do you think anything would/could have changed over that time?

Vote: jeromus

(L-6)

[Vi]

Lacey, are you suspicious of anyone on the wagon? Should I be more suspicious of anyone on the wagon?

I'm suspicious of everyone, as I hope you are too. We've still no idea what game we're even playing. That being said. I like the wagon. L-2 ought to put some pressure on Alexithyma, and pressure is a good way of getting good reads. If nothing else maybe it'll eek out an apology for that disturbing graph *grumble frown*

I'm pretty sure the game is Mafia, at least.
You didn't really answer either of my questions though - are the people on the wagon more likely to be scum?

jeromus's forced vote bothers me.

What do you mean by forced vote? What specifically about his vote bothers you? Do you have any questions you'd like to pose about this topic?

So, I'm going to go ahead and Vote: Sotty
Only SCUM would get so defensive over spoilers! That happened in the very first episode! Such inconsistency is a definite tell.

There's RVS silliness, going off-topic, and being completely irrelevant like this.
There's really no question to ask about it.

Oh right, before I forget. What's it like to be scum?

[Vi]

I'm pretty sure the game is Mafia, at least.

With 12 players it seems likely we're either up against (A) one large mafia, or (B) two scum groups. The last time Zachrulez ran a Zachtown game the answer was the former, a large mafia:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... start=1250

Determining which hole we're in is, in my opinion, important to our strategy and scum hunting.

Not on Day 1.
There is zero reason for Town to care about that on Day 1, before any kills or flips. To contrast, caring about that sort of thing is one of the first orders of business for scum.

Unvote: jeromus
Vote: Lacey

(L-6)

You didn't really answer either of my questions though - are the people on the wagon more likely to be scum?

Not in my opinion. It's a null tell for me on both sides. The wagon seems a good way to flush out scum, so being on it could be seen as slightly town in scenario (A), but in scenario (B) it's a null tell as

scum would also have an incentive to scum hunt

.

Not if there's one scum group. Oh wait.

---

I can't answer the last question too well. I'm never scum.

[Vi]

Not on Day 1.
There is zero reason for Town to care about that on Day 1, before any kills or flips. To contrast, caring about that sort of thing is one of the first orders of business for scum.

Care to explain this position? I'd think it would be the exact opposite. A scum group would already know as they know how many scum players there are.

If you're in a group of four scum, then obviously there is one scum group, otherwise scum would outnumber town.

If you're in a group of three scum, then obviously there is one scum group, otherwise scum would be equal to town.

If you're in a group of two scum, then there are probably two scum groups, otherwise scum would be at an extreme disadvantage.

This is where you're wrong. Two-person scumteams are not uncommon against Towns of limited power.

We however, have zero information, unless part of a mason pair. So it seems this question is one scum would want to keep hushed up, and town would like to shed light on, which seems the opposite of what you suggest.

And how do you propose we find out - without any flips or kills?

Not if there's one scum group. Oh wait.

Which is what I said in my (A) case. Are you just skimming posts?

Yes. I mean--wait--
In all seriousness I didn't make the connection. In any event, taking your (A) case, do you believe that on principle or because of the events surrounding this wagon?

[Vi]

Knowing how many mislynches we are from lylo is important to my personal strategies.

I didn't twist your words. You mention it right there. See it? ^ Right up there.

Yes, and it's an awful large leap to go from there to claiming I am thinking Day 1 is lylo.

Permit me to clear things up.

You are already thinking

of

LyLo on D1?

More in a few minutes, hopefully.

[Vi]

Impressions on the way down.

In the context of Alex's reputation preceding him, I'm tempted to not worry about him and turn the mute button on until he does something egregiously bad. However, I am curious as to how he knows what I've done so far is "Vi being Vi" though, as well as how he's apparently suspicious of my "votehopping" in the same breath as saying that I'm just being myself. Alex seems to be under the misguided impression that we had much of an RVS for some reason, and that everyone chose to participate - the only people who were in an RVS were jason and the ones who ignored the Alex wagon for some reason.

---

While I have seen Lacey play before, it wasn't in a closed setup; and if there's a meta saying she likes trying to cloud every conclusion we can come up with Today, I can sort of relax on her.
By the way, change your meta. It's harmful for the reasons I brought up earlier, plus you can't disavow

every

Town read you have because there's a

chance

there might be multiple scum groups. Further, using your meta as a crutch looks severely unsatisfying no matter what it is you're trying to justify. Last, the general rule is that Town loses after mislynching three times if there are more than seven players (even in Large games, as long as there are more than seven players).
I asked Lacey what it's like to be scum simply because I don't know how her personality type plays as Mafia. (and to potentially scare the bejeezus out of her if she WAS scum)

---

VP Baltar took the words out of my e-mouth in naming Col.Cathart and Cirdua as the next choices in scum. Cirdua's first two posts look like terribly awkward attempts to integrate himself into the game that fell flat. Look at post 42, where he manages to disagree with Col.Cathart and yet still say absolutely nothing solid. In post 45 he tries to tell us that everyone is focusing on Alex, when that's patently untrue. All I see are attempts to avoid controversy.

As to Co

[o]

lCat:

Cirdua and jeromus - You are both missing the point of the wagon, at least in my eyes.

He voted himself. RVS or not, if he votes himself, then he's not town.

Now that's a severe stretch. I've known a number of people who voted themselves first thing as policy. One of them claimed Serial Killer in each game while self-voting. While I know they did it regardless of alignment, I can say that they were always Town in the games I was in and that no cataclysm of fire (or quicklynch) occurred because of it.

If you had posted that with quantifiers (i.e. "most likely scum based on what we know at this point") I would have been fine. Here you're point-blank justifying a 100% blind policy wagon that probably-not-coincidentally you were

fifth

on. I don't care that it's your "berserk button" and I don't particularly care that there's no direct Town motivation to self-vote (what do you think of Alex playing it off as Fong's Gambit?).

---

I had to Vi... I had read a couple of games you were in and have been wanting to play with you. Glad we are here in this game.

Which games? o.o;

@DRK: I didn't even do it this time v.v
Come join the vote I'm about to make; it's shiny and comes with a little blue umbrella poking out the top.

@d3x: With a post that only protests like that aside one other post that jumps fourth on a wagon, don't you think he's justified in calling you a lurker?~

I don't have an issue with jeromus at this time.

---

Hilariously, Lacey now has the same size of bandwagon as Alex did. I'm going to change that and chase the person who is least good at making excuses for acting like scum.

Unvote: Lacey
Vote: Cirdua

(L-6)

This post might have been made under the influence of ice cream cake. I'll try to keep the wallposts down.

[Vi]

Vi the main one was when sotty replaced into... and there were 2 claimed docs. That was fun to read.

Oh, that was Random C9. Fun with JDodge. I was such a newb back then >.>

And I was looking for your name after that, because I thought you looked like a good player... and Zach spoke highly of you too.

I'm glad to hear Zach recommended me, given our experiences in each game we've played together...

Anyway, do you think Lacey is most likely scum right nao?

[Vi]

By the way, change your meta. It's harmful for the reasons I brought up earlier, plus you can't disavow

every

Town read you have because there's a

chance

there might be multiple scum groups.

Well I wouldn't say that I am claiming to cloud judgement on Day 1, or disavowing town reads, so I resent that. I've not attempted to cloud a single thing, nor disavowed any town reads

as of yet.

Most of all we need to keep in mind the potential setups when building our cases and examining our evidence.

For example, since (B) is a potential case, someone scum hunting vigorously needs to not be taken as a gold standard of being town.

Vigilance will be key.

"As of yet" is correct; that's why we're having this conversation.

Also, unless I'm mistaken Minis are more likely to have one Mafia group than two (not factoring in SKs, which are their own category). Even if there are two groups, I would sooner hunt for scum as if there were a single group and find out that there are more than try to make connections like there are two groups and find out there's only one. In the former case, I can at least know that my thought processes are not flawed from the beginning if I'm wrong.

Last, the general rule is that Town loses after mislynching three times if there are more than seven players (even in Large games, as long as there are more than seven players).

Where does this rule come from? It's an interesting theory if there is reason to believe it. Did you mean seven town, or seven players? Because C9 allows only one mislynch.

Mostly from looking at other peoples' setups and finding that they work. In general, Town should not lose after two mislynches in all but the worst of the worst cases in any game larger than a C9. For instance, Newbie games last for three Days at a minimum; the earliest Town can lose is after three mislynches. Here is a 13-4-1 game with four kills per cycle. After two cycles, assuming all of the dead are Town (the worst of the worst cases) the game is at 5-4-1, which while not good for the Town or SK is not yet a Mafia win. This is an 8-4 mini with one voteless Mafioso, allowing for four scum and still allowing Town to mislynch twice before losing. In games with sparse power roles (or none at all) you may even get four mislynches.

C9s are obviously too small for this rule to apply, so etc.

[Vi]

Cooooooooooookiiiiiiiiiiiiieeeeeeeeeeeesssss aaaaaaaaaannnnndddddd Creeeeeeeeeeeéeeeeeeemmmmmmme

Also, "double scum wagon mania"?

[Vi]

Is DSWM! better than a straight Cirdua wagon?

Also, do you use AIM?

[Vi]

Today we learn what's

really

important in your online experience.

[Vi]

@Vi - What does your comment about Cirdua mean? I don't fully understand your vote here.

I promise not to cloud the discussion with talk of the setup. I did read your guide on Modding, between this and some of your comments on setup, could I secure a date post game for some PM's on the subject? I'd like to discuss the theory and you seem to have put a lot of thought into it.

Simply put, Cirdua has avoided saying anything definite and seems to be trying to avoid offending people. Scum have every reason to do that; Town, not so much. Look at something like post 51, where instead of looking for scum, he tells Alex to play better or he might "get frustrated", whatever that may entail.

I'll certainly discuss theory with you; just ask when you're ready.

I'm not sure why you think d3x is Town, but I have a guess - I just don't agree with it.

[Vi]

Col.Cat, you're making a first-thing self-vote out to be The Worst Thing you can do... which it's not. Not everyone who self-votes is Mafia or even a village idiot (never mind that I'm not exactly QFTing what he's saying). Furthermore, while one could make the argument that self-voting makes them the scummiest person

on Page 1

, that doesn't justify what you're saying here.

I've seen people self-vote. As Town. Fairly often. I just got out of a game where someone claimed Cop out of spite shortly before getting force-replaced. Town (and indeed the Cop). I was in one of zwetschenwasser's first games on site, which should explain itself. Town (and another Cop). Granted in the latter two cases these players proceeded to be reasonably useless, but we had zero reason to lynch them simply because they did things that were much more harmful to Town than self-voting on Page 1.

This is really easy to understand. Considering I don't remember you being abjectly terrible at Mafia or profoundly bigoted the last time I saw you, I'm having a hard time believing you believe what you're putting out.

--

Mastin or Haylen

Two players you should not even think about modeling your play after. Just an opinion.

I agree fully, unconditionally, wholeheartedly. Except I don't have opinions; I divine Absolute Truth.
Further, and just to drive the point in--

The self vote(d) and fakeclaimed all the time during the RVS. It worked for them, although one of them never got policy lynched over it

As far as I know, no, they were never policy lynched. However, I can provide a game where Mastin was dayvigged in 38 hours in spite of claiming a power role (and the people rejoiced). Based on what I've seen, the reason Haylen is considered "crazy good" as scum/third party is because she does the same things she does as Town* (and she will freely admit her Town play needs improvement) and people don't lynch her for reasons that completely escape me.

*except as an IC, where she makes an effort to be more of a model

[Vi]

Easily done. I stand by post 98. I didn't say much at the time of the original Murder in Zachtown because we DID win in the end, but yes, that bussing and telling you to replace out D2 was definitely not for show. That and the walls of fakeclaims for the first five pages WERE helpful for scum in that game.

Now that that's out of the way, hai and welcome back; it seems like the entire scumteam from the original Zachtown is in this game. Whod'ya wanna vote?

[Vi]

Oh right.

"crazy good as third party" is a direct quote from the Title Fairy thread. The site crashed while I tried to find it, but it's somewhere around Page 78 or so, I think.

[Vi]

Alexithaylen: Who are you speaking to in 105? Specifically with--

Would you like to know why

you people

want me lynched?

You

can policy lynch me if you like, but it'll just show everyone how closed minded and arrogant

you

really are.

We can discuss the rest after the game.

[Vi]

The reason I asked was because I only see one person still pushing for your lynch (and Sotty7 who's still voting for you but she's being weekended, etc.).

As for the people jumping on your self-vote first thing, well what did you expect~

[Vi]

Wait... just freaking wait. Why is

any

of this discussion taking place? Is any of it relevant top hunting the Scum in this particular game?

If you know what to read for, yes.

For instance, you might not have noticed that Alex entirely missed the hint I was dropping in 109.

What's with the change of mind in how to handle him?

Oh come now, that's an easy question.

Talking of scumhunting, are you accusing Alexythaylen of being scum?

[Vi]

I hope this didn't get lost over the last page.

[Vi]

I noticed that Vi did help facilitate both Lacey talking about the set up and Alex/haylen's little ego rant. Not sure what to make of that.

Yes I did. In Haylen's case, I did that for two reasons:
*Letting Haylen explode on the topic all at once versus letting the hard feelings stick around, ideally keeping her from being spiteful until like D2 or something
*Hopefully showing that Haylen didn't have ill intent with what she was doing at the beginning of the game

In Lacey's case I did it because I got the impression that she really didn't understand what I/we were saying.

In both cases I did it because I had a Town read on each of them at the time (and still do).

Your vote is terrible, and not just because it was explained very poorly.

No bacon for you.

But do you have a meta game of

[Haylen]

as active scum?

Both of us do, unless my memory of Zachtown is completely flawed.

[Vi]

I put zero trust in associative tells, simply because I don't think I've ever seen them work.
With that said, of course you see ties between the three of them. They all claimed outright to have known each other from a previous game.

You might want to be more concerned with how jeromus has posted fluff and an immediate defense of Alex's random vote, and really nothing else of substance.
It's still more than what Cirdua has posted though.

[Vi]

I'm sure people could say Vi and I are buddying because we have similar scum reads at this point, but the reality is that we just play in tandem like that early until we (she) get(s) a scum read on one another (me).

Hey, you were the one who tried to get the jump on me last time <.<

[Vi]

That's cool, I don't like bacon.

*dramatic chords*

But do you have a meta game of

[Haylen]

as active scum?

Both of us do, unless my memory of Zachtown is completely flawed.

Haylen was under heavy attack for lurking in Zachtown. So yeah, you must be getting old.

I stopped counting at 21

--

It's not a Cirdua vote, but I can live with what you have.

[Vi]

jeromus. Who is scum.

DRK. Opinion on Cirdua.

[Vi]

Cirdua is scummy, but a Cirdua-vote his hardly bacon-worthy and the fact that a dog said it was disturbs me on a very deep level.

Right now, I'd probably put him right below Lacey and jeromus, who continues to post no content, even when asked directly for his opinion (on Cirdua).

the thing is, cirdua never posted any content to begin with

so how is cirdua any better

[Vi]

It's like I see Cirdua's posts, but all they say is

I'M SCUM

over and over again.

Quit dodging the issue and lynch/bus him. Nao.

[Vi]

We have some time still. Why the rush to lynch so quickly?

Cirdua and jeromus have already had plenty of time to "talk out their positions" (Cirdua more than jeromus, as j has claimed V/LA).
At this point it seems like people are making excuses for not lynching obvious scum.

By "lurkers" you mean Col.Cat, d3x, and jason, right? The chance that the Day will actually end without any of them posting is fairly small.

[Vi]

SCUM SCUM SCUM SCUM SCUM SCUM SCUM I'M SCUM SCUM SCUM

I'm sorry, I didn't quite catch what you were asking.

Just because we have 17 days doesn't mean we actually have to use all 17, especially when we can just go through the Scum In Front Of Me (SIFOM).
Besides, consider that with five people who aren't on your wagon and lurking it up or V/LA (Alex, jeromus, Col.Cat, d3x, jason) and assuming you aren't going to be nice enough to join your own wagon, it is physically impossible for you to be lynched as things stand right now. So sit back, relax, and enjoy the feeling of the noose tightening around your own neck.

[Vi]

five people who aren't on your wagon and {lurking it up or on V/LA} (Alex, jeromus, Col.Cat, d3x, jason)

This might be a little easier to understand.

[Vi]

Vi, who do you think is most likely to be bussing out of Lacey and DRK? They both look scummy to me with those votes. DRK is where my money is at though.

Where's the "Jasper" option?

LethalInjectionCat definitely wins/loses for late votes on all three wagons, plus his sudden change in taste over bacon.

[Vi]

Awwww Vi thinks I am bussing. Not sure whether that is an insult., or totally sweet.

Now if you stop by tomorrow morning, you can iron my shirts, fold them, and put them into my dresser drawer. You'll love every minute of it.

How did you go from

I think I am going to do some ISOs and see what I can come up with because some of this stuff... is beyond me, it seems.

to

I *love* Bacon!!

Vote: Cirdua

?

[Vi]

Either I am really cranky after my nap

or Jasper basically just outted himself as scum by hopping on the Cirdua for no reason other than it was the cool thing to do.

Jasper outed himself as scum with his flippant response in 173. Either that or he outed himself as a Debonair Danny DiPietro alt. But either one of those would be fine by me.

Also, at the bolded after you got done calling me old.~ It's amazing how by site standard we're middle-aged.

Besides, you want votes on the Cirdua wagon... and when you get them you complain about people coming on the wagon.

Nonono, I'm not complaining at all. By all means keep bussing your partner; let me and VP talk in another room or something.

Also, I'm partial to the name "Jasper" for some reason. It's a unique name for a mineral. [/offtopic]

I asked Cirdua for his top 3 picks for scum. Instead, he basically gave a PBPA of Lacey, most of which is blatant IIoA and much of which was more or less repeated from what others said. He also didn't vote for Lacey, despite implicitly claiming her as his top suspect. (I just checked and he hasn't actually voted yet this game.)

How did that bump him over Lacey and jeromus?

Ok, so I just reread the thread and am not liking Cirdua, but the run up of Votes on the last page concerns me greatly.

Why?

[Vi]

@Vi- Why I don't like Cirdua or why I'm concerned over the huge influx of Votes?

The latter.

What is middle-aged by site standards? I have the sinking suspicion I'd be considered an old spinster.

Well, me and Sotty appear to be in our 20s... The "old people" invitational seems to have a cutoff age of 30...

I still have the feeling that I'm too old to be on the Internet this much, but enough about me >.>

I think we all agree on the scummyness of the latest few jasper posts. What are your feelings on the benefits of lynching Cirdua over jasper, or vice versa?

Jasper's vote is likely to be scum-motivated, but more so if it turns out to be a bus. We won't know that until we lynch Cirdua. Plus, assuming the worst-of-the-worst-case scenario that both of them are Town, I think we would lose less by lynching Cirdua.

[Vi]

@Lacey

then tell me I'm not contributing.

Forgive me, I meant to say that "It's like you're adding in filler like this to make it look like you're contributing

more than you actually are

." This is only reinforced by the most recent age discussion. And don't worry, Vi's inclusion in yet another off-topic discussion hasn't escaped my eye either. The difference between the two is that Vi made a random off-topic comment and you proceeded to encourage the discussion with followup questions.

Ah yes, "weirdo teenage perverts".

Maladjusted

teenage weirdo perverts. I'm honestly surprised I don't trip the "weirdo" label though.

I'm not saying that it's the case, but what if the Cirdua case is being pushed predominantly by Scum?

You're not saying it's the case, and you're not at all prepared to argue it, but what if it could be used as an weapon against Lacey?

Where is Col.Cat anyway?

[Vi]

You're not saying it's the case, and you're not at all prepared to argue it, but what if it could be used as an weapon against Lacey?

Less that and more that her position looks like appeasement. It's an illustration as to why this bothers me.

I certainly won't deny that vote was appeasement. Is that necessarily scummy? I

did

ask for her to change over, after all.

[Vi]

This thread needs more notHaylen.

[Vi]

The old people should totally form an AIM ring. We just need to stop playing with each other first so we can't meta while we meta. (Yo dawg, I heard

etc.

)

and I actually need to go get an AIM account since I keep bringing it up

I'm happy with my Jasper vote still.
Cirdua needs to stop lurking and actually bring content to the game. A lot of the things he have said here are similar to our last game together and that makes me a bit suspicious of him. He could earn my vote in the future.

But how likely is that?

[Vi]

EBWOP: How likely is Cirdua to earn your vote?

[Vi]

For the love of

mith

Nikanor just do the PbPAs

[Vi]

I already said uselessness is Haylen's meta. So did Haylen.
We'll come back to her if we have to.
But right now we don't have to.

Are we going to continue to make wavering, reasonably scummy, useless, etc. posts; are we going to finally put Cirdua (who isn't going to post any time soon) out of his misery; or is someone going to put up a legitimate reason for stalling?

I am actually blonde haired, blue eyed

I distinctly remember dark hair from that pic you posted.

Claim Jester-Cop

Inexcusably not-Normal role (and implausible by every stretch of every imagination). Claims like these will put Zachrulez on a permanent watch list.

Vi is annoying me posting those pictures AHHHHHHHHH

[Vi]

No matter what I'm going to say

, I probably screwed up so much already that it wouldn't help me. But when I flip town remember who were pushing for my lynch (before everyone did, that is). Maybe the only good thing that will come out of my lynch is a better chance at finding the filthy scum that jumped onto my wagon.

Cirdua doesn't even believe that

[Vi]

We have two weeks to form that majority so there is plenty of time to continue questioning and trying to draw more information out of the lurkers for better reads.

The reason why I'm against dragging Days out is because the Town will lose its momentum entirely, people will stop caring, etc. and really we can do the same sorts of pressuring tomorrow, plus the advantage of information from the Night. Plus if Cirdua is scum (and there's no reason to believe otherwise really) and we move away from him to someone who isn't I'm going to be reasonably bothered.

If you want content from people, ask them specifically what you want. Sitting around and waiting for people to freely contribute oodles of information has a tendency to not work.

So if everyone's going to stall, I'm going to go on hold for a while.

[Vi]

Happy Birthday, d3x!

Hey other people in this game....what's the dealio?

This.

I'm starting to get curious about how people are spending their time while needlessly burning time from this game's future by avoiding an obvscum lynch that is pretty much going to happen.
I'm listening to music you've never heard of* right now; how about you?~

*"you" implies that an audience who is younger than me. =p

[Vi]

What's curious is that I actually believe you about it being influential, in spite of it being justified by the comment

I happen to love horrible dissonant racket.

Tell me more about it. I'll learn something, and nothing better is being done with this thread right now anyway.

[Vi]

*sees the band's ready acknowledgment of jazz, esp. hard bop as an influence*
Oh

now

I get it.
You can simplify jazz history by looking at two major poles - on one side, the commercial "cool" stuff, on the other, the individualistic "bop". You can probably guess which side I stay on.

Then again, I can have some respect for the people who come up with ideas that people later expand upon to great effect.

[Vi]

Are we really encouraging a hammer without a claim?

Without speaking for VP Baltar,

yes

.
We'll be waiting a while yet for anything from Cirdua, content or otherwise.
Plus his last post was made when he was already at L-1 so etc.

What's in it for me to hammer my second pick when I'm still waiting on my first to you know, actually provide content?

Banking days for tomorrow, where we can bank further days by lynching your first suspect. (Jasper, right? No objections here.)

[Vi]

We'll see how it goes, I just really miss Jasper

Well, wasn't it you who invited Jasper over here in the first place? Wouldn't you be able to do some cyberstalking to determine if he's lurking or genuinely absent?

[Vi]

I'm leaning heavily toward Hammering. I doubt anything really productive is going to happen and I don't think anything has for a while now.

I'd like a bit of resolution with the Jasper lurking/replacement thing but I'm of the mindset that even if he comes back it will become a recurring theme with him.

Regarding the Claim, I think that if it were anything worth hearing , he would've already said it.

:goodposting:
Except for the middle part; if Jasper hasn't been around enough to post a "busy, will post later" post I would class that as lurking and hold him/his player slot all kinds of accountable for it Tomorrow.

Come on, don't make me start wagoning ABR-style. Or I'll make every one of you listen to this on loop.

[Vi]

Hey, is that DRK I see onsite today?

[Vi]

d3x is more likely Town. Scum would have waited more to run down the clock or otherwise hidden behind the claim/lurker excuse, IMO.

@VP Baltar: Are you still almost-retired from mafiering?

[Vi]

Well, I'm dodging around the issue for a reason. If you're on a Mafia slump, I'm worried that you'll hate me/this setup.

But it's too late to take back your pre-/in* Anyone you want to invite? I'm trying for some newer faces this time so it doesn't turn into Reverberation-meets-that-Open-Game.

*Not actually true.

[Vi]

What about Nicodemus? Maybe some of the people nommed for best newbie already?

I'm not actually burnt out on mafia or anything, it was just a matter of not really having the time to play properly, which generally leads to people going: "Hey VP, ur not being all aggressive and stuff, you's da scumz!"

The last time that happened to me, I actually WAS (reportedly) da scumz so yeah. <.<

Also, I'm glad to hear that you sometimes type most of a post up, go out and do something, and come back to it. I was really hoping I wouldn't be called scummy for doing the same thing (again, ignoring certain minor points in that line of thought).

I'll do some looking around.

[Vi]

I didn't expect to be wrong on the lynch. I

really

didn't expect me and VP Baltar to be picked around for the kill. So I've had my fun, I went for scum, I missed, the person I called Town died (so I got something right!). I'm ready to let someone else do the heavy work Today. AtE, etc. but aside from the disappointment brought on by me being able to post right now I think letting others play would be a good move. For instance, DRK is correct that we're likely dealing with two scumgroups - likely either 2:1 or 2:2 - and being so brazen about it screams Town.

jason's post 286 earns a twitchvote. He wasn't a great player in Zachtown the First but this is pretty obvious coasting.

Vote: jasonT1981

(L-5)

[Vi]

@DRK: I don't have a problem with seeing jeromus-scum, especially with that last post. His suspicion of Lacey is just coasting on what you said. His vote on Alex Yesterday was a poorly veiled policy vote. And if anyone is being condescending, it's certainly him. (which says a lot coming from me)

[Vi]

Why not? We can let the scum crosskill jason.

Unvote: jasonT1981
Vote: jeromus

(L-4)

[Vi]

This wagon's going up just a little quickly...

...and someone hasn't posted yet, which I find very surprising given how much she has been around onsite.

Unvote: jeromus
Vote: Maemuki

(L-4)

[Vi]

Lacey, there are two problems with what you said.

1) 2-2-2 is not necessarily a Town loss.
If there's only one scum group, then 3-3 IS a Town loss, but etc.

2) Scum don't kill randomly. In fact, they have good reason to shoot each other at this point. 3-2-1 is pretty nice for the 2 group (if only one group hits scum overnight).

[Vi]

Oh right, a third problem.

Most people

can only control the lynch (not the kills). Therefore, the best that

most people

can do is lynch scum... which is what

most people

would be trying to do anyway.

Do you claim to not be one of

most people

?

[Vi]

DRK is correct that we're likely dealing with two scumgroups - likely either 2:1 or 2:2 - and being so brazen about it screams Town.

I don't see what screams town from stating obvious facts. I'd like you to elaborate on this.

It seems like the sort of thing a Townie would latch onto first thing. Information, glorious information! and not the speculative kind like Lacey is putting out. Scum try not to act like they know too much, unless they're like Hoopla in PYP2 and try to direct the Town into one avenue of speculation (like what Lacey is doing).
Or if you want another example, take me and Trollblag from F&E. I specifically avoided having anything to do with Masons during the Day throughout the game, never mind that they were kind of Town's best weapon in that game. Troll actually came out D5 and laid out his thoughts and speculations on the Masons at great length, more than everyone else. The Troll comparison is a bit off because he talked about it after the fact but etc.

I'm not getting the obvTown vibes you are from Lacey, but she's not getting lynched Today anyway.

Ok, so for the page of posts, there wasn't a whole lot there to comment on. My general feeling is that the jeromus wagon is mostly poo poo and I'm sort of curious why Vi thought it was vote worthy. Why was that exactly?

I don't think I actually read DRK 289 much. But I hated 292 and thought all of his posts up until then were equally useless, including that goshawful policy vote on Alex D1.

Jason, Maemuki and Alex all look like lurker scum at this point.

Quoting for truth; bandwagons plz

[Vi]

I'm not completely up for doing the mass bandwagoning from yesterday, but it's not like Maemuki isn't elsewhere onsite.

[Vi]

EBWOP: "bandwagoning" should be "tubthumping"

[Vi]

EBWOP: "bandwagoning" should be "tubthumping"

What does tubthumping mean?

It means what I normally mean by "bandwagoning", but I wanted to express a difference here.

The first - placing many votes on someone
The second - calling for other people to place their votes on a wagon

---

jason is obvious lurkerscum, Maemuki is obviously stalling (or at the very least using scumhunting tactics that don't work on a player who is notoriously scummy in general) while saying "she has a life" when what she really means is "I'm playing MSM4", Haylen is really obviously onsite and lurking casually through the game too.

I mean if we lynch from that pool and still lose this game I'll be liekwoa.

[Vi]

I ask this seeing that you haven't moved your vote, but do you have a particular preference between the obvscums you'd like to lynch?

[Vi]

Vi, you originally voted jeromus, why isn't he in your obvscum set?

With some abuse of [tvtropes]willing suspension of disbelief[/tvtropes] I could almost see him as a VI, ignoring that he hasn't really posted Today except to defend himself and serve microwaved points.

He can go too.

Why isn't Col. Cathart on your scum list Vi? VP Baltar, what do you think of Col.Cathart lately?

I'm willing to buy the "I'm a college student" excuse for this 24 hours. Considering his "stoic" opinion on policy lynches, I have to wonder what he'll do with this kind of situation.

jason has been completely and utterly useless. I've seen Town-jason be useless, but not to this extent.

[Vi]

Full post to come elsewhen (maybe) but the drama ITT is too pathetic even to warrant a snippy Advice Dog pic.

Unvote: Maemuki

No L-1 factor. As you were :arrow:

[Vi]

Full post:

etc. etc. etc. useless people justifying their uselessness instead of acting useful etc. etc. etc. BY THE WAY MAEMUKI-SCUM ISN'T AT L-1 ANY MORE etc. etc. Townies failing at being Townies etc. etc. generic whining etc.


Fake EDIT:
Or maybe not about the second-to-last part. Assuming for a moment that me, VP Baltar, and Lacey are Town - AND assuming that there are four scum in this game somehow some way - then there are only two Townies in the clusterfrick that is Everyone Else. Right now my picks are DRK and Col.Cat. I'm willing to accept the possibility that I'm wrong in that department, but there's no particular reason to do that unless I get the impression that someone else in that group is remotely Town.

[Vi]

EBWOP:

but there's no particular reason to do that unless I get the impression that someone else in that group is remotely

likely to be

Town.

Subtle difference.

[Vi]

Just a general question for the more experienced players. I've run into low levels of enthusiasm except from 2-3 players in nearly all of my games, with 50%+ of the players lurking. Is this normal? It's a let down.

If it's normal, it shouldn't be. I usually pre-screen who I'm playing with. I know it's "cliquey" but it helps avoid games where everyone decides to die, figuratively or mentally.

*Spoiler tag removed.*

Most games drag down eventually to some extent though.\

[Vi]

@Vi, if I was picking townies out of that group it'd be Col. Cathart and Alex probably. Why the change of heart re:Lacey?

I said I don't think she's obvTown. But it's not like anyone's reputation compares to hers at this point.

I'd like to hear more from DRK when he gets back actually.

[Vi]

Lacey - While I wouldn't suggest that V/LA tends to be faked even if it looks convenient, I will say that there is some temptation to stretch it longer than it really is.

I can also assure you that while fakeclaiming V/LA

should

not be a viable part of the game, it most certainly can be. While some people are not pleased with that sort of thing, there is generally not a lot of stigma after the game is over on the occasions I've seen. In other words, some people are not hampered by this concept of "civility", and the greater part of the community doesn't mind.

This is not to say that any of that is necessarily happening ITT, but I do have to wonder if you've noticed that you're the only person who continues to reference sportsmanlike conduct.

I really would like for this topic to not be monopolized by myself, VP Baltar, and you; but it seems like (barring Col.Cat) literally everyone else is on some kind of leave.

VP Baltar 383 is made of truth, glorious truth.

[Vi]

Vi, I don't really understand what did you mean in your unvote explanation. Care to elaborate?

I still think Maemuki is scum, but I wanted to see if anyone would vote her if she wasn't at L-1 (looking specifically at jason when saying this).

[Vi]

At least the deadline is a long way away.

[Vi]

Oh also, I'm pretty sure jeromus is onsite.

[Vi]

Vi - your images annoy me greatly. is that why you continue to post them? lol

Correct in one guess.

In related news, none of the above posts have changed my mind about anything. (jason's particularly)

Also *gets Tomato Launcher 3001 ready*

[Vi]

@DRK: How did you put "fast" and "this Day" in the same sentence?

Also, who is scum? (and if it's not jeromus, why aren't you voting them)

[Vi]

Vi, if you had to pick 4 scum right now, who would they be?

Mae, jason, jeromus, Haylen. Mae and jeromus megalose for not being able to catch up and say something intelligent-sounding, which is a newbscum tell. Haylen is lurking it up and knows fully well she's probably going to get away with it Today. jason is etc.

Why are you asking me this question?

I know we're contractually obliged to turn on each other eventually but still.

[Vi]

Something tells me I don't have all four of those right though. It's a best guess based on what we have. I think after another Night things will become more clear.

[Vi]

I can't fault Konowa for outing Alex-scum, at least.~
Alex's posts are so bad they've transcended badness and become kind of funny.

I'm disappointed, Veep Bee. It feels on my end like you're manufacturing reasons to suspect me, and I really don't want to deal with the implications of that. (unless you actually ARE scum)
But fine, we can play that game. Why do you think Alex is NOT scum based on not paying attention to something that anyone who has been reading the game and/or interested in finding scum would have been keeping a close eye on? Or her utter inability to play anything but defensively now that she's outside her comfort zone (to contrast when she was dealing with the self-vote mess)?

Before making a judgment on DRK, I'd like to know why he finds jason scummy.

The utter lack of jeromus in this topic is borderline scary. Yes, he was onsite yesterday.

Basically Konowa has managed to accuse everyone except Col.Cat of being possible scum, which at this stage is unhelpful and legitimately scummy (when in trouble, sow mass confusion!).
I agree with Lacey 449 and I'm definitely seconding the request for a claim, because at this point I think we've finally gotten everything we wanted out of this Day.

[Vi]

I'm disappointed, Veep Bee. It feels on my end like you're manufacturing reasons to suspect me, and I really don't want to deal with the implications of that.

What are these implications you speak of? I mean, don't get me wrong, you're probably my strongest town read...but I also thought you were town for 95% of F&E. With this many lurkers/reactionary posters it can't be all that surprising if I poke you occasionally to see if anything happens. I don't want to lose based on my own complacency.

I can understand the feeling; at the same time, I kinda like/d being able to openly work together with you.
It's like being Neighbors without the QuickTopic, and if we go the same ways I think we would be more effective together.
Of course, this is contingent on getting accurate reads on each other first, or at least agreeing with each other while we sort that out.

That's my POV anyway.

Why do you think Alex is NOT scum based on not paying attention to something that anyone who has been reading the game and/or interested in finding scum would have been keeping a close eye on?

While Alex is far from making her way onto my town list, I think the specific point about reading is bunk. Yes, town SHOULD be paying attention, but I feel like opposing scum would almost certainly be paying attention to NKs. I know when I'm scum I don't tend to forget NKs, particularly when there is an opposing scum out there.

I agree that she would have paid attention to her OWN kill...

Or her utter inability to play anything but defensively now that she's outside her comfort zone (to contrast when she was dealing with the self-vote mess)?

I gave her town points for this? You'd have to quote that for my memory.

'Never said that.
Ftr, could you clarify your read on Alexithaylen?

[Vi]

Ftr, could you clarify your read on Alexithaylen?

She's still scummy to me, but probably lower on my To Lynch list. I'm like 90% certain Konowa/Jason are a scum pair and I'd like to wipe them out first before moving on to the others. However, if I was scum looking to eliminate the opposition, Alex certainly would be high on my list of NKs tonight.

Which brings me what I meant when I said we have seen enough for Today. I'm more than confident that we've outed one member of each scumteam, and quite possibly two on one. That's all we need, because the scum definitely need to take care of each other as well as they can while they can.

Maemukonowasper
jason
+
Alexithaylen
jeromus

^^work for you?

Incidentally, why is an Alex lynch not preferable to a Konowa lynch? Is it the pairing potential?

[Vi]

Can you explain why jason makes your list with Konowa over Col.Cathart? I've not been getting a particularly town read from either Col or Jason, but Konowa's "suspect everyone but Col" has tipped me more in Col's favor for that scum slot, and he was already my prime suspect between jason and col.

I don't think scum would be that obvious...
Besides, since that slot isn't getting lynched Today we can revise that later.

[Vi]

I never get to hammer

Failure to claim after being asked multiple times = confirmed scum.

Usually but not necessarily.

I just checked. Nobody except Jasper (who was replaced overnight) and Haylen (who would have evidently forgotten her own kill) expressed even mild suspicion of Sotty7 D1. That was no Vig shot.

[Vi]

In this game, I learned that Vi scares the hell out of me. In a good way. I think. It's hard to be sure.

That's the point, nya.~

I have nothing to say that won't be screamed in Mafia Discussion in a few hours.

[Vi]

Out of curiosity to the other scum team, was your kill of VP Baltar intended to be a cross-kill as our kill of Vi was?

[Vi]

I can confirm that Vi isn't playing to her usual town meta though.

...

If you were waiting for a game where the scum shamelessly coordinate their moves right in front of the Town for extended periods of time, keep waiting.
You might want to get a lawn chair; it will be a while.

[Vi]

I can confirm that Vi isn't playing to her usual town meta though.

...

If you were waiting for a game where the scum shamelessly coordinate their moves right in front of the Town for extended periods of time, keep waiting.
You might want to get a lawn chair; it will be a while.

Vi, your town posts are usually longer.
That's where my 'gut reads' come from
You'd be surprised at hown much Im right.

oic

My meta changes with my mood and what I think works. Long posts take a while to type and the only thing they serve to do is make me look Townier, which I usually don't need.