Mini 941: (Almost) No Rules Mafia (Game Over)

[totallynotmafia]

Confirm

[totallynotmafia]

Vote bv310

A fake account?

[totallynotmafia]

Ok, just found it weird that someone would quote something in the wrong thread.

[totallynotmafia]

Ok, so not only is this colour representative of my current celebrations of St Patties day, it should also accurately represent the colour of my spew tomorrow!

Oh and

vote:zoraster

A fake account?

ps I've also decided to outscource the majority of my scum-hunting, should make this WAY easier!

[totallynotmafia]

Heh, most of the people in my MD thread think that I'm scum, well that was a rousing success. However it has brought out some scummy behaviour in a few people, namely Hooplas and xvart's votes on me (and Zang too I guess). Instead of giving their own opinions they've just said "well the people in the thread think you're scum so I'm voting for you". I think this could be scum hiding behind the opinions of others so they wont be accountable for their own opinions later on. They didn't even bother to say "I agree with what they're saying about such and such" they just blindly voted. Well Hoopla kind of did now that I read back on it, and Zang I'd like to hear why you voted for me seeing as you gave no reason at all. xvart's I find to be the scummiest:

Thanks. I suppose if the thread was made to help find scum, the least we can do is follow their advice.

The more I look at this it just seems like a massive excuse to vote someone, rather than actual scumhunting.

Unvote, vote: xvart

@Liam: I don't see the problem with starting the thread as early as I did, surely there are things to be learned from the RVS stage, otherwise you'd never get out of it. Besides people not in the game are more likely to stick with reading the game if they do it right from the beginning and read along as the game progresses.

I'm struggling to understand just what is going on with kitten and the claims business, Kitten are you basically saying that you were neutral and that based on a coin flip you became town?

[totallynotmafia]

I'd still like the other neutral to claim. I already selected town. If you selected town it's a coin flip to see who's helpful. I want both of us to die. If you roll scum, well, you know what you are getting rid of. If you roll town, well, obviously in exchange for your life you get a caught scum.

This specifically UK I'd like you to explain/elaborate on seeing as it probably relates to zorasters last post.

[totallynotmafia]

Well seeing as UK and Bananas' allignments wont be revealed until they're dead I think the safest bet is to lynch both of them. I'm more inclined to believe Bananas at this stage because as they said it seems like a unnessessary move for scum to do to out themselves just to get UK lynched. The only motivation I can see is if the town version has a heap of powers and so Bananas thinks it's a reasonable 1-1 trade, with the added bonus that nobody will know UK's allignment when she's dead so he may get away with not being lynched afterwards.

I think we should lynch UK today, and then if Bananas is telling the truth and if they have powers which differ from scum's they should use one of them tonight so that if they can prove they used it tomorrow we will know they are telling the truth.

Unvote, vote: UncertainKitten

[totallynotmafia]

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Ok SocioPath suggested not using Missouri's name so just to be on the safe side I'm going to call him by his location for now....although I have no idea how that would work with voting.

My original vote was more out of jest, which was the reason I said it the way I did. Since it was still, in my opinion, close enough to RVS shenanigans I saw no harm in not making an official "case". Then, I kept my vote on you because of CallMeLiam's comment as pressure, since if you did get lynched and flipped scum it would give more information about CallMeLiam.

There are obviously more pressing matters to attend to now; but I don't want to hastily move my vote when there is plenty to discuss regarding the selector business. So I am comfortable leaving my vote on you for the time being.

I can see how it could have been a vote made in jest but a vote is a vote and you can still use a joke vote to hide behind, particularly because there was already a vote on me and you went on to insinuate a scum partnership between me and Liam, so obviously it wasn't just a random vote in jest.

I'm not willing to say the word at the moment because of the nature of the word, it leads me to think that the person who says it may be the one to die instead. Perhaps you should reveal your whole role if you want someone to say it.

@Zang, you still haven't given your reasons for voting me earlier.

Post 3/5

Actually, there is no need to waste a lynch on UK.

She has treestump - as do I. The ability to remove our votes and powers.

@UK: Please confirm or deny that the town JOAT has treestump.

Demand her treestumping today. If you want to, demand mine as well - but I suggest you give me at least one night to do something useful. If you want me to, I'll treestump tomorrow morning.

I don't really get this...if you are town then you know 100% that UK is scum...so how is that wasting a lynch? This makes me suspicious of you because maybe you're trying to hold off on the UK lynch now that many of us have said we're going to lynch you right after. I don't have a problem with you guys treestumping but I don't really see how that helps us, isn't it just a last ditch effort to save yourself?

[totallynotmafia]

Well that's believable but why don't you just quote your role PM?

[totallynotmafia]

Ok, duplicity. That PM seems real to me, and even if it isn't and I get killed or something weird happens to me then everybody will know you're scum anyway.

[totallynotmafia]

Well if the night actions aren't retained that makes things a bit different I suppose, in that case UK should go ahead and stump herself.

Then we have to weigh up whether it's better to not stump Bananas hoping that he is telling the truth and can utilise his night actions to try and prove that he is town, or to not take the risk of him being scum and stump him so that he can't utilise the scum powers. If we decide not to lynch either UK or Bananas today then I think it would be a good idea for them to reveal the town versions actions, as scum will most likely find out about them at night anyway, and it might help us in our decision on whether or not to stump Bananas.

I must say though I still think lynching both as soon as possible is the best move to give us information, because it seems as though you learn a lot more from a scum lynch than a townie lynch, and if we lynch someone else there is a good chance they will be a townie, whereas we have a guaranteed scum lynch within the next two days and we can then get information from that based on who was siding with who etc. If it wasn't for the (what is hopefully) unbiased opinions of at least one person in the MD thread that stumping is a better move then lynching then I would definately be saying that we should just be lynching at this point. I'm open to all ideas though given I don't have any experience with roles outside the more normal ones.

If we do allow Bananas the chance to prove his allignment tonight and he fails, then we absolutely have to stump him tomorrow. It would be ludicrous to allow someone with a 50% chance to be scum to continue in the game with the possible scum powers.

Of the above:
- xvart I'm inclined to think was a misunderstanding. I also like his claim - although I'm wary of the same role, with mafia, who get something if we post the word (say a kill). If things go well otherwise, we should probably kill xvart by starving him of words.

From here on, the decision to give xvart his word should be a consensus one

.

I've been thinking about it and I think there's a way we can prove he is town. If that role was given to mafia then I think it's pretty safe to say that his fellow scum wouldn't be able to say the words, otherwise that would defeat the purpose of the role as they would already know them. Thus if each day we get only whoever is about to be lynched to say the word, if that person flips scum and xv survives then I think we can safely conclude that he is town. Anyone who hammers without allowing the person to say the word will be really scummy in my eyes.

[totallynotmafia]

EBWOP: I don't know why, but I think UK is bananas.

As Fish said that doesn't really make sense because Zoraster announced that both people had chosen in the thread. The only way I can see UK being Bananas is if she is a jester with the ability to make the mod say things in the thread, in which case she is a freaking genius with one of the best claims ever and I take my hat off to her.

It seems to me ani like you're trying to delay a UK lynch, and UK's vote seems like major distancing:

Unvote, Vote ani

How nice to be indifferent when, you know, you SHOULD commit to a stance that could have SOME bearing on your scumminess depending on how I and bananas eventually flip.

UK if you're town you should be voting for nobody but Bananas, seeing as they would be definately scum.

FOS: ani

[totallynotmafia]

UK should treestump immediately

I'm still going to vote for her afterwards as I think that's the best plan of action, but at least this will get things moving.

Reading back I've just noticed a possible connection that someone was hinting at, which is making me think that allowing Bananas to have a night action tonight in an effort to prove himself could be okay. As I said before if he fails this then then he should be lynched tomorrow.

Espeonage, DocPotter, CoolDoG and DedicatedScribe all need to do the cryptoclaim (it seriously takes less than five minutes) as well as post more in general.

[totallynotmafia]

@tnm: you advocate lynches on UK and Bananas. Regardless of what we think of their alignments, I disagree. I'm prepared to treat UK as very likely scum for the purposes of analysis, but even if I wasn't I'd much rather have both treestumped than lynched. I see it as pretty much giving the town two free lynches - even if we are left wondering who was town.

I don't understand how not lynching them is getting us two free lynches, we're going to have to lynch them both sometime down the track anyway (barring a successful cop investigation on one of them hint hint), and so I don't understand where the thinking comes from that we get two free lynches out of it. If we lynch them both now I believe what we learn from knowing which one is scum will help us hit scum again more than if we lynch somebody else today.

How does a rolecop differ from a normal cop? I'm guessing you learn the role, but do you learn the allignment as well? If so I'm thinking that we should give Bananas the benefit of the doubt considering his play so far and that we should allow him to use his rolecop tonight. If he fails to find scum we lynch him tomorrow (or at least stump if you guys can't agree on the lynch). If he hits scum then we spare him tomorrow and give him another chance to hit scum the next night. Every night he manages to find scum we should allow him another chance but if he doesn't we should lynch him (in case he is scum and he sacrifices a scum member the first night in order to try and confirm that he is town). At its worst if he is scum then he only gets one chance to find the role of a townie, and I think that is a reasonable risk given the possible reward if he is town.

[totallynotmafia]

Uhh gelid, if you are town then that was a really silly way to claim. I'm not going to point out why, but let me make it clear that DS, DP and Espeonage still need to claim.

[totallynotmafia]

Uhh guys TNTNM is me and it was just a joke, I thought that was pretty obvious...obviously not. Why would you guys jump on the vote without even checking with me first?

[totallynotmafia]

Annachie you're gonna be in soooo much trouble, unless you're a sham account you shouldn't be posting in this thread.

Uhh guys TNTNM is me and it was just a joke, I thought that was pretty obvious...obviously not. Why would you guys jump on the vote without even checking with me first?

There are numerous reasons why tntnm is scummy-

1. It could have been somebodies attempt to frame you using a sham.
2. The account was used with no purpose, this can be confused with trying to confuse the town
3. The account was used as a joke so that you can later claim that it was a joke to take pressure off of you.

And also-

why did you create an account with only a slightly different name and avatar and then say that it was you? You are only allowed one sham, why waste it for a joke by exposing it?

I will unvote you when you answer the above questions.

That was the whole point of the joke, that TNTNM was so obviously me but trying to pretend like it wasn't, I was just bored and having a bit of fun with the rules. The rules state everyone is allowed two sham accounts btw, though I must admit I didn't realise the 5 posts per day was for both shams, so my bad on that one.

Sorry, I missed this. It gives us two free lynches in the sense that we get two more lynches than if we don't lynch them. If we win the game barring UK/Bananas (say night kills stop for a few nights), we lynch them both and win. We really can just totally ignore them until the end (in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if treestumped players didn't even count towards winning conditions - if we eliminate all the antitown players except treestumps, there's literally no way to lose the game). Except in that they aren't revealed, and they can post (which we can just ignore), it's like they are dead in every way.

Yeah, the information would be nice. But is it worth two lynches (and therefore two nightkill phases) to know for sure that UK is scum? I really, really think not. Suppose we are now in standard 9-3. Then with two nightkills and two lynches, we are in 6-2 with some info. With no nightkills and two treestumps, we are in 8-2 with no info. I really don't think the information we would gain is worth two townies. Similar things apply in multiscum - it's never worth two lynches to find out one scum alignment and one town alignment.

Ah, I think I understand you now, I was under the impression that even if they are stumped they will still affect lylo and so we would have to lynch them anyway...but I wonder how that works with the scum person....will they still be able to submit nightkills?

I think I see where you're coming from but from my position there is pages of possible information in this thread that is useless without knowing which of the two is scum. I'm thinking it wouldn't hurt to go at least one day without lynching them but I'd feel a lot more comfortable knowing their allignments for sure sometime down the track.

And as for Bananas stumping if the rolecop doesn't detect allignment then I'm not as happy to allow Bananas to go un-stumped, just detecting the role of a person doesn't seem that advantageous for town to me, unless someone can convince me otherwise. If it does detect allignment then I'd be happy to allow him to go unstumped every day that he comes up with a result on scum.

@UK and Bananas, could you please both ask the mod if the rolecop detects allignment?

And I think it's time we finally put some pressure on the lurkers:

Vote: DocPotter

[totallynotmafia]

Unvote, Vote: Zang

I'm absolutely baffled as to how you think my use of a sham account is scummy but DocPotters isn't.

Now that we know that the rolecop doesn't detect allignment I was going to say that Bananas should treestump but I think I have a better idea. I think Bananas should claim their real identity (only as an alternative to stumping), as if they are town they will force scum to either:

1) NK them, which saves us from one NK as we are most likely going to stump Bananas tomorrow anyway.

or:

2) Not NK them and risk being rolecopped.

For myself I think it would allow me to trust Bananas a lot more if I knew who the real person behind them was (although I think I may know already, but I'd rather know for sure).

[totallynotmafia]

I don't understand what you mean by "confusing the town", what exactly do you think I was trying to accomplish by posting with a fake account which looked exactly like me? Wouldn't I do it looking like somebody else if I wanted to confuse the town and then claim it was a joke afterwards? And how is DP's random post as Annachie asking the mod a question not confusing at all to town?

[totallynotmafia]

The problem with Annachie's post is that he was asking if there is a penalty for not answering a prod, which means that DocPotter was most likely prodded, and instead of just answering the prod and just saying in thread "I don't have time to post content I'll do it later" he used a second account to ask if there was a penalty, which seems to me like DP is trying to get away with lurking as long as possible. Let's not forget though that especially after xvart's claim we may have more people with weird roles or posting restrictions

It was confusing because it was distracting. Gelid just claimed, DS promised a post full of info and treestumping became a good idea for most. Posting a joke account in the middle of this diverted our attention to you and away from any of the above. And annachies post is distracting but I don't see what it was distracting us from and if you think it is scummy why aren't you voting for him?

I'm just trying to get to the bottom of what seems like an inconsistency to me in you seeing one use of a sham account as scummy and another not. It makes me think that DP could be your scumbuddy.

[totallynotmafia]

Well that makes things easier, nice one Hoopla. If you have unlimited daykills I suggest killing UK and Fishy so we still save the lynches but we get to learn their allignments.

Fishy I was pretty sure you were bananas from your posts but I wanted to make sure as if you weren't then I would have thought a scumgroup between you and bananas was a good possibility, and that was my initial worry after bananas first posted but after I realised you two were probably the same person then the suspicion subsided. All things considered I think there's at least a 90% chance you're telling the truth, but in the end I'd rather be safe than sorry, and more than just stumping I'd prefer to know your allignment for sure seeing as your optimal play as scum right now would be to protect your allignment from ever being revealed so that people can't make a connection between you and your scumbuddies.

If it isn't possible for both UK and Fishy to be daykilled then I'd be happy to stick with the old plan of giving Fishy the benefit of the doubt and allowing him at least one rolecop investigation before stumping.

[totallynotmafia]

Ha I can't believe we all fell for that, I even noticed it was spelt with an "e" instead of an "a" but I thought I had been spelling it wrong this whole time and didn't bother to check!

Unvote, Vote: zorestar

I can't see any pro-town reason for impersonating the mod. If they are town they're going to have to out themselves and explain.

Ok zoraster just posted while I'm writing this, so now that we know Hoopla's kill was a fake Hoopla is going to have to post their password for the cryptoclaim.

I didn't realise the deadline was so close, everbody needs to vote zorestar asap.

[totallynotmafia]

Also I don't like the fact that someone pointed out the fake mod using a sham account (hate_me_not), I don't really see the point of that.

[totallynotmafia]

Hmm...can't remember you ever giving me that chance both times you've voted for me.

FOS Zang

Again you're showing an inconsistency with your attitude towards shams, impersonating the mod is the BIGGEST way to confuse the town.

And with less than 24 hours til deadline, now is the time that you should be voting first and asking questions later.

[totallynotmafia]

Unvote, Vote Hate_Me_Not

Given the baffling use of a sham account this is the only sensible lynch so close to deadline...hurry up guys and jump on the vote otherwise we've completely lost the advantage we gained with stumping UK.

[totallynotmafia]

I think that lynch was a bit silly, most of the people jumping on CML didn't even have a reason to think he was scummy (and didn't bother to consider his claim) they just didn't want to risk lynching UK. This is exactly the reason I hate the idea of having the scum remain in the game even though they can't vote, if UK is the scum then she's already managed to influence our votes just by being there. If she is HMN then the worst we could have done was remove her from the game. Based on the way the votes changed I think there's a good chance DeathNote is HNM and successfully managed to steer the vote off of himself.

In case I'm NKed I still think Zang has a good chance of being scum, his last post just adds to my suspicion of him. I trust xvart a lot more after his annoyance at the last minute scrambling but I think we should still follow my plan of making the person about to be lynched say his word. Also unless he finds scum tonight or somewhow proves himself town I think Fishy should stump tomorrow, my trust of him has waned after CML's flip.

[totallynotmafia]

That's a strange question to ask CMR, do you really think we would be making Fishy stump if we knew he was town?

[totallynotmafia]

Fishy, could you please quote all relevent PMs from the mod pertaining to your role cop last night?

[totallynotmafia]

That was either really silly of UK to claim scum because we still wouldn't have known her allignment until she's dead, or, what I think to be more likely, it could have actually been a strategic move.

The only benefits I can see at the moment of letting everyone know that she is scum are:

1)So we wont bother to lynch her as she's already treestumped, which if this is the case it must mean there is some benefit still for her being around...I'm sure we established that both joats would lose their night powers once stumped despite it not being in the PM, so I'm not sure of any other benefit.

2) So we start to look for possible distancing and bussing in her posts, which means theres a good chance that all that stuff with ani was fake distancing, so we need to treat all of her posts as wifom.

3) So we don't lynch Hate Me Not if it is one of her scumbuddies.

I'd be pretty happy with the HMN lynch as at worst we get rid of UK which after her claim as scum wouldn't be the worst idea anyway. There's no rush though, we don't even know if there are any shams who want to claim night results. I think we should force HMN to say xvart's word, if they refuse to then they are definately scum. As fishy said nobody else should say it.

[totallynotmafia]

Ah I missed that you have a gun bit (Ani if you're town then you really should have claimed the result using a sham to avoid NKs).

I'm thinking Hoopla should give us the key too, if her claim doesn't have a gun then we lynch her immediately. If she flips town then we lynch Ani.

[totallynotmafia]

I'm saddened by the fact my crypto claim has nothing about this, but I wasn't told.

Nothing about what? Please elaborate.

Also, could someone clear up what "having a gun" exactly means? Does this mean you are a killing role?

No, as I understand it it's just any role that would be carrying a gun, so cops count too.

[totallynotmafia]

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Gunsmith

So you're claiming gunsmith?

[totallynotmafia]

Also, could someone clear up what "having a gun" exactly means? Does this mean you are a killing role?

I was referring to this.

Ah, I get you now. Hoopla should claim immediately, if she's town then scum already know she's a power role anyway.

[totallynotmafia]

Yeah, I don't understand why people don't just quote their role PM in the cryptoclaim though. Ani, please post your role PM as well. Hoopla, please post your key.

[totallynotmafia]

I kinda hate taking advantage of that but the timing of those last few posts makes it highly likely that Ani is town. Anyway, I'm interested to see what Hoopla's claim is.

[totallynotmafia]

UK, just face it that all that fake distancing was for nothing!

[totallynotmafia]

Hmm I think I've changed my mind, keeping Stumpy McNo-Vote around will at least be entertaining.

[totallynotmafia]

I am going to go ahead and claim Hate_Me_Not as my role. It is obviously a huge distraction to town. I understand it being considered a scummy tactic, but only for anyone else beside me. I had all the right in the world to do that seeing as I was the one being Fake killed. To prove it was me, I will add this PM conversation that I had with Zoraster after my initial two PMs.

Ok well... tell me if I am wrong for doing this, but I am going to create a sham account and post in it. Will this be acceptable? I am assuming it is allowed since I am not in the dead area.

Sham account name is: Hate_Me_Not

sure. you can post either way.

So why all the lies?

May I please point out that by lynching this Sham account, you could be lynching UK whom is a tree stump. If she is maf, that would make sense for the sham account not to claim and allow himself/herself to be lynched.

That is my point. If UK is scum and is a tree stump, then using the sham account would get him lynched and force us to NL. There is plenty scum motivation, especially for a person who is tree stumped.

You were blatantly misleading the town here, how are we possibly supposed to believe you had a pro-town motivation for this?

[totallynotmafia]

Nice try Hoopla, I even copied your original claim and saved it earlier in case you had any way of editting it. Your original encryption is completely different:

ZZZZZ XKQQK FTMGJ RACXR STFQA AAPBC TUIRL AJCXT AKPTR QIFNB WCSTM
UQSJE LQHGJ QHWWR OGHGH WXIPU QCKVQ QQNQD QMFDQ WQHDN PPMTV CCSAB
XWVWJ VRUAH RWNWJ DQTJP BOJNA AGUHL JFGVF HTODI BBKJB TNTEV EOOTL
VWMPG LFDGT XMFHF HAVVP PKLEX GXXSI NLKBE ITPEO RSAPQ FUPEX OVIGA
UHTXR WDSTJ CCQVK EFDNE AKUCC CFPNV UTQAU RJCRJ CTLBM GMGFG BEVAJ
FXWIP HEBVV DVQKS DJBBC WEBXF DREQB TAXBL ULULP RAHEE JMLWT SNIET
GLVPO ASPJA NWRLB MMLTG PWIGF UOBRO TKTTF LHKPE QLKLQ SMDFP BCVSF
WJLTL EAXMP DJFLE JPBUH NFUMF SFCUV OASDV MJIXC KOIMW APRWN NKWNS
NBSQF ECFHA FOVCU QPSTD KAIAB SWAII OUGHT KJJIX LXILX MDLDG GHCXC
CSIOU TOMXE KJVFW VXTTW KXRSN QTKUS PEBSC JPPFC PUGFA LOLEG KGTLW
FKRKN JUPME SVIGH OISEO IFXSU PMVAG MZZZZ YYYYY

Vote: Hoopla

[totallynotmafia]

Clearly Hoopla's original claim is different, and so she tried to make it look as if she was just quoting her original claim and hoped that we wouldn't bother to go back and check if it was the same.

This seems too good to be true but it looks as if we've just caught two scum in Hoopla and DeathNote

[totallynotmafia]

DeathNote is scummy for the whole HMN and lying to the town thing. I forgot he was the one you fake-targeted, I don't really know the motivation behind doing that to fellow scum besides possible distancing but at any right I'd like to hear DeathNote's reasoning for misleading the town and not just owning up to the sham yesterday.

[totallynotmafia]

Why are you more concerned in defending someone else rather than yourself?

The facts are that:

1) You changed your cryptoclaim once you were caught and tried to pass it off as the original one.

and

2) DeathNote got a townie lynched by lying about who HMN was.

That's two pretty scummy people right there.

[totallynotmafia]

1) What are you talking about?
2) I don't think it was DeathNote's sham account that got Liam lynched.
3) Even if that is true - how does a Hoopla/DeathNote scumteam possibly work?
4) What are you wearing?

1-3) Please don't do a UK on us and subject us to all that again. It's over, you got caught, you have the right to remain silent but anything you do say will be taken as WIFOM.
4) Nothing.

[totallynotmafia]

You guys are kidding right? She got caught out changing her claim after she realised her original fake-claim didn't involve a gun! How is she possibly town???

[totallynotmafia]

No, that doesn't make sense. Think about it, if you are town and if Hoopla said she had a guilty on you then we would all lynch you, then you would flip town and we would all know she was lying scum. Saying she has a guilty result on you would be the dumbest move for scum.

Smart scum will always try to legitimise a fake cop-claim by claiming innocent on town and guilty on fellow scum.

[totallynotmafia]

Look, here's what happened. I lost the key to my first cryptoclaim and knew I'd be lynched for it after I remember I hadn't saved it. This is why I claimed this way - because if I was going to be lynched anyway, I might as well have tried to repost my role PM. It was a risk that I needed to take, because there was no downside to losing.

I am a cop

, and it sucks because ani will probably just out someone tomorrow as well.

I don't expect to be believed, but this is what happened, and I am sorry for losing my first password. I knew it had to come out at some point though.

You're right, I don't believe you, if you had legitemately lost your password you would have just said it rather than trying to pass off that claim as your original one.

Town PLEASE keep your password safe, if you claim to lose it you will be lynched. Otherwise it defeats the whole purpose of the cryptoclaim if scum can just say "whoops lost my password".

[totallynotmafia]

There is more than one faction so giving an innocent on a town is too risky for a mafia member because they might be clearing someone who is in an enemy faction.

How do you know there is more than one faction?

[totallynotmafia]

Your an idiot (addressing anyone who is calling me out as scum for claiming my sham).

I can understand if I was caught hiding my sham account, but I confessed it. obviously people thought it was anti town to point out I was still alive which might be the case assuming that it was anyone beside me that pulled that stunt. I was curious as to were this was leading so I used a Sham, big deal.

I derailed town from lynching me. It is not my fault we lynch a different town person. Either way, we might have lynch him today.

Why didn't you admit it was you yesterday? It seems to me you only admitted it today because you were about to be lynched.

[totallynotmafia]

EBWOP wait I just realised that I missed the IF.

Unvote

You points are valid for now.

What do you think of Hoopla now then?

[totallynotmafia]

Your an idiot (addressing anyone who is calling me out as scum for claiming my sham).

I can understand if I was caught hiding my sham account, but I confessed it. obviously people thought it was anti town to point out I was still alive which might be the case assuming that it was anyone beside me that pulled that stunt. I was curious as to were this was leading so I used a Sham, big deal.

I derailed town from lynching me. It is not my fault we lynch a different town person. Either way, we might have lynch him today.

Why didn't you admit it was you yesterday? It seems to me you only admitted it today because you were about to be lynched.

Bull, I was about to be lynched

yesterday

not today. This holds no substance.

You had three votes on you already and I had stated that I intended to vote for you I just didn't want to rush it. You were going to be lynched today, and I would vote for you now if it wasn't for Hoopla being caught out fake-claiming.

What do you think of the Hoopla situation by the way?

[totallynotmafia]

I think there's a possibility Espeonage may have slipped up with his "there is more than one faction" post, and if there are two scum teams I think they could be:

Scumgroup A:
-Hoopla
-Espeonage

Scumgroup B:
-DeathNote
-UK

Which explains certain players actions and why Espeonage would know if there is more than one scumgroup.

[totallynotmafia]

Fair conclusion.

I do agree that those couples are probably on the same team. Group A in the Town and Group B in a mafia faction.

What about Hoopla makes you think she's town?

Please go back over the last few pages and read everything again, but I'll try to explain as concisely as possible what happened and why I'm sure she's scum:

1) Ani voted for Hoopla saying she's got a gun.

2) We forced Ani to claim which he did and his claim was gunsmith.

3) We then forced Hoopla to claim, and she appeared to quote her own claim from before, but obviously it was a different claim.

4)She then later claimed that she had lost the original key.

I can't seriously be the only one who sees that she is scum and in her original claim she must have just claimed VT or someone who doesn't have a gun, and so after Ani's investigation she knew that the original claim would catch her out so she attempted to fool us by making it look as if she had quoted her original claim but it was really the new cop one.

Even without this the role PM looks fake anyway:

You are a town cop. You can detect whether people are innocent or not. Be aware of Godfathers, Millers, Framers, etc.! You may send your target each night by PM, and I'll tell you whether or not they're aligned with a/the mafia.

Town: You win when all mafia, sks and any other malicious third parties are eliminated.

Confirm in Thread

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 93&start=0

Somebody else please tell me they see this.

[totallynotmafia]

Deathnote, that was before I was thinking that there may be more than one scumgroup, which is why I said I thought you both were scum but I didn't understand why Hoopla would fake-target you like that. Two scumgroups with you guys on either side would explain this though.

[totallynotmafia]

What about the role PM looks fake?

Well for starters, it says "you can detect whether people are innocent or not."

A cops main object is to find scum, so wouldn't it be more likely to say "whether people are guilty or not."

And would the mod really warn about godfathers and millers etc?

Also shouldn't it say that the reply would be guilty rather than simply if they are alligned with a/the mafia as there could be third parties?

Seems fake to me.

[totallynotmafia]

We are lynching Hoopla as soon as the other town players realise that

sneakily changing your cryptoclaim is extremely scummy.

The whole point of cryptoclaiming is so that scum are forced to make their claims early and then have to stick with them. E.g. scum claims VT to be on the safe side, they later get accused of having a gun, they go "oh shit VTs don't have a gun but scum do so everyone will know I'm scum, well I'm doomed but hey as long as I'm screwed I may as well try and get away with making another cop cryptoclaim and put it into a quote so it looks like it's the original one and just hope people wont go back and actually check....oh shit they checked I'm screwed now....oh well I'll just say I lost the key....oh shit I can't believe they actually believed me this is too easy WOOHOO!!!!!"

It's absoluteley mind-boggling that you guys are letting Hoopla off the hook, it's literally boggling my mind. I like the game boggle but NOT IN MY MIND. The cryptoclaiming was a complete waste of time if we're not going to hold people accountable to it.

[totallynotmafia]

For the love of all that's holy, Kill Hoopla. Now.

[totallynotmafia]

Argh, Hoopla was supposed to say that, if Hoopla said it and flipped scum and xvart survived that would prove xvart as town (although not necessarily if there is more than one scum team). Now we still wont know.

Anyway, somebody hammer.

[totallynotmafia]

Nobody else say the word by the way, if xvart ever flips scum down the road then that pretty much confirms CMAR as town.

[totallynotmafia]

Also, I just checked the Usernames, and The Real Gunsmith isn't even a sham, but a clever unmade username in a fake photo.

Oh really?
I am going to establish that I am not a gunsmith, I just couldn't think of a name for another sham account.

LOL I almost pissed myself laughing, worst sham ever!

I thought TheRealGunsmith was Hoopla and she just didn't bother to use it once she realised that by claiming cop she had legitimised Ani's gunsmith claim anyway, but maybe she gave the password to UK or something.

Anyway thanks for the laugh. I'll be back with my thoughts on everything once I change my pants/tomorrow.

[totallynotmafia]

Ok so I guess that means we only have one scum team with one remaining scum (other than Stumpy McNo-vote). I'd say at the moment the top candidates are:

-DeathNote: for blatantly misleading the town to save his own arse
-Espeonage: for his consisitent defence of Hoopla (although this may just be due to misplaced trust after Hoopla claimed an innocent result on him)
-Zang: I've thought him scummy for a while now, and his reactions to CML and Hoopla's flips makes me more suspicious of him.

If DeathNote is scum then the whole fake-daykill thing is a bizarre way of bussing to say the least. I just don't understand the motivation of DN to do what he did if was town, so perhaps he is a SK or something.

I went back through Zoraster's posts to see if Hoopla may have ever used the broadcast ability, and the only posts that would make any sense to be broadcasts are:

I just wanted to clarify that yes, treestumping does mean that powers are unusable. The only thing a treestumped person can do is post about the game here, in public mafiascum threads, and -- if scum -- in the QT at the appropriate times.

It's a lonely death. Sham accounts are not revealed upon death.

Also, elmo from that other thread brings up a good point, so I'll clarify: for the purposes of win conditions, a treestumped player is considered eliminated.

I thought that maybe UK had kept her powers after the treestump and Hoopla wrote these so we wouldn't know, but checking back at Bananas posts it looks like he did confirm that the powers would be lost after stumping. It may be possible that Hoopla broadcasted the second quote and that UK may still be able to submit nightkills.

I'm thinking also that we should consider massclaiming tomorrow with everyone submitting their keys. Apparently we have a cop, a tracker and a sham detector if these shams which keep popping up are to be believed, but it seems like too many power roles to me, so if the sham claims don't match up with the cryptoclaims we would know which sham was lying and be able to lynch them immediately. If they do all match up then given the fact that scum received the VT role PM and given Hoopla's initial claim I think it's quite likely that the other scum took the safe option and claimed VT in their cryptoclaim. Anyway, I think it's worthwhile considering for tomorrow.

[totallynotmafia]

Ah the whole gelid thing makes sense now, gelid tracked Espeonage on night 1 and he didn't go anywhere. So Espeonage is pretty much confirmed town now if I'm not missing anything given Ani's investigation last night (Espeonage if you are a cop this is the time to claim as it means Ani is lying.)

[totallynotmafia]

Huh?

[totallynotmafia]

The kill on xvart is a strange choice to me, I thought out of everyone he would be the last to be killed given the role he claimed, and I don't know about everyone else but the thought of him being a tracker hadn't even entered into my mind. This makes me think scum somehow knew xvart's true role, and I don't remember seeing any clues from xvart so the only way I can think of that they would have worked this out is if they used the sham detector thing on gelid:

With the emergence of lots of Sham accounts I am letting you know that I am a sham cop. As in I can find out the identity of a sham account. I have the ability to confirm if people are worried about who a sham belongs to. I will only appear when requested by someone bacause my power does have limitations (not to mention the post restriction).

So only bother this sham if you are indeed worried about someone elses sham.

I'm thinking that the remaining scum could be the sham cop, at any rate I'd like to hear from Brandyjay.

[totallynotmafia]

Well there shouldn't be a need to post your night results after you're dead as you should be posting them while you're alive under a sham as there is no risk of being nightkilled that way - unless scum have a sham detector, which is why I want to hear from Brandyjay.

[totallynotmafia]

UK, stop misrepresenting yourself, you look NOTHING like those pictures you're drawing. I searched for you on facebook and here's one of your photos that I found:



You do look good though, have you lost weight?

[totallynotmafia]

Wait, why are you listening to somebody called TheRealGunsmith who clearly isn't a gunsmith? I'd be pretty surprised if it wasn't UK, but please claim who you are immediately TheRealGunSmith.

And despite TRGS suggesting it I think a massclaim is probably the best idea at this stage as it may catch out the last scum, but I want to make sure everyone is around first because it's kind of pointless if people are going to be replacing out.

[totallynotmafia]

That reminds me:

@mod: sorry to be annoying but can you please confirm that treestumped players not only lose their votes and powers, but the ability to submit nightkills as well if they are scum?

[totallynotmafia]

Ok cool, just making sure that wasn't a broadcast by Hoopla. I was kind of hoping UK still had powers just so we had an excuse to lynch her. Speaking of UK, here's another photo I found of her, this time relaxing by the beach:



Careful UK, you don't want to get sunburnt!

[totallynotmafia]

Yeah it makes sense, as scum usually would want to throw a vote out on somebody when they're going down so the fact that Hoopla didn't makes Grimmy's claim pretty likely to be true.

@Grimmy, why didn't you say that it was Hoopla you targetted in your cryptoclaim though? Also could you please quote your role PM.

[totallynotmafia]

Ok now that everybody has checked in we can continue with the mass claim.

Here's my key:

CPVPR-FBEJJ-HEZRF-UGHBD-CCAEN-MWGDB-HVLBD-JZLDJ-AGVNI-VPLHX-VWIAM-QEJHU

Probably went a bit overboard with the filler. Also am I the only schmuck without a power role?

Claims:

totallynotmafia: VT
UncertainKitten (Treestumped): Scum joat
animorpherv1: Gunsmith
Zang: Bodyguard
Espeonage: Sham detector (still needs to quote role PM
DeathNote

DedicatedScribe

: ????
CryMeARiver

DocPotter

: ????
Grimmy

CooLDoG

: vote preventer (still needs to quote role PM)


CallMeLiam: Town Cop Detector
Fishy: town joat
Hoopla: scum vote freezer
xvart: word use tracker

Shams and their owners:

Annachie: DocPotter
Bananas: FishytheFish
Brandyjay: Espeonage
Clank: Animorpherv1
gelid: xvart
Hate_Me_Not: DeathNote
Mario: ????
TheRealGunsmith: ???? (EMT)
totallynottotallynotmafia: totallynotmafia
zorestar: Hoopla

I could have sworn there was a sham that claimed cop but I must have got that confused with another one. So TheRealGunsmith needs to claim who they are, and Mario as well although they may be somebody who replaced out. Also CMAR and DeathNote need to post their key asap.

Espeonage please quote your role PM.

[totallynotmafia]

Try it again, I just double checked it and it works, the same corrupted message came up for me when I first tried to decrypt your claim you've just got to copy it right.

[totallynotmafia]

Well I said myself that scum would likely cryptoclaim VT to be on the safe side though I'm not so sure after all the PR claims, at any rate we're still waiting on two claims so I'm not going to bother speculating until we've heard them.

Also Espeonage why haven't you quoted your role PM yet?

[totallynotmafia]

Am I the only one who actually reads the thread?

Please note that you will also get a "Fake" townie PM soon that includes this power in it

It's not that surprising that in a game where you can quote role PMs that the mod would give scum the VT role PM in case there was a massclaim, otherwise they'd be screwed.

And why are you voting before we've even heard the other claims???

DeathNote the only thing you should be posting now is your key.

[totallynotmafia]

So he would give scum a fake VT claim but not actually put any real VTs in the game? Please think about that for a second.

[totallynotmafia]

No, that's not what I said at all. I'm a VT but you're saying it's a fake-claim. So according to your theory, the mod gave scum the VT fake-claim without actually putting any VT's in the game. Also you are psychic and know CMAR's and DeathNote's claims already and thus know that they couldn't possibly be VT's either and hence can conclude that I must be scum.

[totallynotmafia]

CMAR, why on earth would you create a sham called TheRealGunsmith? If you are town then that is just so ridiculous as the name TheRealGunsmith imples it is counterclaiming Ani. I just can't see any reason for doing that as town.

FOS: CMAR

I just can't believe there's only one scum left, between CMAR's TheRealGunsmith, DeathNotes lying, and Zang jumping on Espeonage's misguided thinking about my VT claim I'm just not sure who it is.

I really want to hear DeathNote's claim.

[totallynotmafia]

DeathNote's failed cryptoclaim is a bit different than Hoopla's as I don't really see a motive for DeathNote not wanting to reveal his cryptoclaim as Hoopla had. Still, I think lying to save himself is bad enough anyway, but there's no rush to make a lynch now when we still have a whole week.

@CMAR, you are being extremely hypocritical in your accusation on Zang, as your protection on Fishy was wasted and he even reminded everyone not to bother protecting him. Also, when you chose to name TheRealGunsmith did it ever enter your mind that by naming it so you would confuse the town into thinking someone was counterclaiming Ani?

Also I officially give up on trying to convince Espeonage, apparently the idea that the mod would give scum the VT role PM in order to protect them from a mass claim is too strange an idea.

[totallynotmafia]

Ok let's recap:

DeathNote lied about a sham account to avoid getting lynched and failed to provide his cryptoclaim key.

I spent a heap of time and effort yesterday trying to convince people that what Hoopla did was scummy, despite some people convinced he was town.

And somehow you guys are actually debating which one of us should be lynched? Mind. Boggling.

Personally I was tossing up between CMAR and DeathNote, but CMAR makes a good point about zoraster's initial stuff up with Fishy's death scene, it could have been due to CMAR protecting him and zoraster forgetting that Fishy was macho.

Vote: DeathNote

TheRealGunsmith is still ridiculous to me though, and it's not a moot point at all (just because you say you aren't CC'ing Ani in the thread doesn't mean that that wasn't your initial intention when making the sham, afterall you didn't post with the sham for ages, why was that by the way CMAR?).

If DeathNote's not scum then I think it would most likely be CMAR.

[totallynotmafia]

Ok let's recap:

DeathNote lied about a sham account to avoid getting lynched and failed to provide his cryptoclaim key.

I spent a heap of time and effort yesterday trying to convince people that what Hoopla did was scummy, despite some people convinced he was town.

And somehow you guys are actually debating which one of us should be lynched? Mind. Boggling.

Personally I was tossing up between CMAR and DeathNote, but CMAR makes a good point about zoraster's initial stuff up with Fishy's death scene, it could have been due to CMAR protecting him and zoraster forgetting that Fishy was macho.

Vote: DeathNote

TheRealGunsmith is still ridiculous to me though, and it's not a moot point at all (just because you say you aren't CC'ing Ani in the thread doesn't mean that that wasn't your initial intention when making the sham, afterall you didn't post with the sham for ages, why was that by the way CMAR?).

If DeathNote's not scum then I think it would most likely be CMAR.

You truly are an idiot. (HEY LOOK MOD, PERSONAL ATTACK)

Good solid defence, there.

Either way, you and me should both be on him tonight?

That's a complete waste, and this is hypocritical again after you had a go at Zang for wasting a protection.

I think UK would provide us with a better lynch personally, but I'm willing to make concessions.
Unvote; Vote: DeathNote
I believe you DN, but I'm left with no other choice

What specifically makes you believe DeathNote?

And what the hell? I thought we already established that lynching UK was wasting a lynch.

[totallynotmafia]

Yes but the likelyhood of someone losing their key is a bit higher than a single VT. hen the only other VT claim was also scum.

What makes one VT any less likely than no VT's? Also, if you think I'm scum then that means me and Hoopla both fake-claimed VT without any VTs being in the game, which means that either zoraster provided us with a fake VT role PM when there's no VTs in the game or me and Hoopla decided to come up with our own VT role PM and just hoped there wouldn't be any actual VTs to show our role PM was bullshit.

Do either of those seem likely to you? If they do, then I'm happy to have Ani gunsmith myself so that you can stop tunnelling me and start scum hunting properly.

[totallynotmafia]

CMAR, if you are both legitemately healing roles then it's a waste. If you think Zang is scum then protecting the same person as him wont help anyway (obviously he's not going to NK the person he's claiming to protect). At any rate you shouldn't be saying in the thread who you're going to protect as it just helps the scum with their NK, but maybe you know this in which case I'm not going to say any more.

If anybody has something they only want to reveal once they're dead, then I think I've thought of a way to do it. Cryptoclaim whatever information you think may be helpful once you're dead, and make sure you customize the key, then post the encryption tonight. Then, if you die, change your avatar to give the clue towards the key.

EG: Somebody cryptoclaims whatever useful information they think may help pertaining to their night action and they make the key "tree". They get NKed, then they change their avatar tomorrow to a tree, and we all get the information.

Also don't forget that Ani is in no way confirmed so if we are in lylo tomorrow and Ani comes up with a positive gun result on someone then don't immediately lynch that person, as if Ani is scum and it's lylo or mylo then that's all he has to do to win.

[totallynotmafia]

And what the hell? I thought we already established that lynching UK was wasting a lynch.

Tomorrow is likely to be MYLO, therefore we will either no lynch or knowingly lynch scum and gain more info from what another night holds for us.

From what I've gathered from what the mod has said UK is basically not even in the game anymore except for her ability to post, so lynching her is as good as no-lynching. If we decide on a no lynch then I'd be happy to lynch her.

[totallynotmafia]

But she's already eliminated...so it's basically pointless.

[totallynotmafia]

I was just about to point out the fact that scum has to be either Ani or Zang but then again it's possible a bodyguard might have a gun.

@Ani: did you think about this before you threw a vote out in lylo?

At any rate people need to unvote asap.

[totallynotmafia]

BTW this:

[REDACTED, remind me to repost after the game is over.]

posted in the thread "proven role is not the same as proven allignment" is what first made me think Ani could possibly be scum with UK talking about the gunsmith role.

[totallynotmafia]

Either way we still lose if we mislynch.

[totallynotmafia]

Hang on, at least lynch UK if you want to no lynch!

[totallynotmafia]

Whoah that was quick. I guess that pretty much makes Grimmy town as he's v/la on weekends so it's unlikely he submitted the NK.

Zang, who did you protect?

Ani, who did you gunsmith?

Logically Zang should be scum, but I'm not ruling out Ani performing a massive bus.

[totallynotmafia]

Why did you do that when CMAR was already protecting him?

[totallynotmafia]

Oh wow, okay Ani is scum, pretty sure VT's don't have guns.

vote: animorpherv1

@Zang and Grimmy I'm fairly sure I can show you guys why Ani is scum just please give me the chance to do so.

[totallynotmafia]

If I'm scum then that means the mod gave out fake VT role PMs to scum when there are no VTs in the game which is ridiculous.

Zang have you seriously never heard of the mod giving scum safe claims to protect them from massclaims?

[totallynotmafia]

BTW this:

[REDACTED, remind me to repost after the game is over.]

posted in the thread "proven role is not the same as proven allignment" is what first made me think Ani could possibly be scum with UK talking about the gunsmith role.

[totallynotmafia]

Yes I have but you have a gun. A VT wouldn't have a gun

Exactly, which is why Ani is lying and is scum. Do you really think I would invite Ani to gunsmith me if I was scum with a VT claim?

[totallynotmafia]

@Grimmy, wherever you are, please don't vote until I've had time to put up a case, which should hopefully be tomorrow night.

[totallynotmafia]

So in your mind, there's no possible way that Ani is a scum gunsmith who bussed his partner on day 2 in order to get a free ride to the end?

[totallynotmafia]

Zang, please take a look at this thread:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13861

[totallynotmafia]

Zang, I defy you to go back and find even one instance where I've acted scummy. Ani has consistently shown infifference and has hardly scum-hunted at all .

If Ani was town then there's no way he would have immediately voted Hoopla upon his investigation as it states in his role PM that some town members would have guns so there's no way he could have known for sure:

I will not provide a list of who has guns, but I will say that most mafia members, some town members, and if there are any, some third party members, will have guns

And he did the same thing when he voted for you yesterday Zang, if he was town he would have considered the fact that a bodyguard might have a gun.

[totallynotmafia]

Zang, that's not the first suspicion I've had of Ani:

BTW this:

[REDACTED, remind me to repost after the game is over.]

posted in the thread "proven role is not the same as proven allignment" is what first made me think Ani could possibly be scum with UK talking about the gunsmith role.

I'll admit the suspicion wasn't that great, but of course that is going to change after he claimed I have a gun as I now know 100% that he is scum and trying to frame me, as a VT wouldn't have a gun.

If I were scum I could have jumped on the vote for you yesterday, claiming that bodyguards don't necessarily have guns and avoided the gunsmith tonight, winning the game then and there.

If I were scum I could have allowed you guys to continue to think Hoopla was town after her failed cryptoclaim instead of working hard to convince you guys otherwise.

If I were scum I could have not said xvart's word, and not come up with a way to prove he was town.

If I were scum I could have pushed to make Fishy stump day 1, instead of giving him the benefit of the doubt and allowing him a chance to catch scum.

If I were scum I could have not created the "Let's play a game!" thread, which has helped town throughout the game, most notably with the cryptoclaims.

I understand if you think that's all WIFOM, but here's the important bit:

If Ani were town he would not have voted for Hoopla immediately after the gunsmith as the role PM clearly indicates that some town members would have guns.

If Ani were town he would not have voted for you immediately after gunsmithing you, for the exact same reason.

If Ani were town he would have voted for me immediately after gunsmithing me, as in that case that would make me 100% scum with my VT claim.

Ani is the scum gunsmith. He did not have to use the VT role PM he and Hoopla were provided with because gunsmith is a good town claim anyway. Sometime before Day 2, he and Hoopla came up with the plan for Ani to bus Hoopla and claim he had a gun, which would legitimise Ani's gunsmith role and make him look town, thus giving him a free pass to lylo where all he had to do was frame a town member, me.

[totallynotmafia]

Also, if Ani were town he would have claimed his gunsmith results via sham account in order to save himself from the NK. Obviously as scum he wasn't concerned with this, and was more concerned with setting up his gunsmith claim.

[totallynotmafia]

im gonna have to read to answer these questions:

-if Ani lied about Zang, then maybe he lied about TNM too, especially if you think that bodyguards DONT have guns. If bodyguards dont have them, then Ani failed to mislynch Zang and is trying a new route to get a mislynch

-if TNM is really a VT. I need to see Hooplas role again, and I think I saw something about how scum can request role pms. I need to check to see if i read that right. and i have to figure out why TNM would ASK (i also need to see where he did this) to be gunsmithed, and if he didnt just set himself up for a mislynch.

Im posting these things here so I dont lose them when I write them down.

Question for TNM in the meantime: why didnt YOU vote yesterday for the kitten lynch?

Grimmy

That lynch happened so quickly, I would have preferred more time to at least have a discussion on what we should do. It was me that pointed out that lynching UK was better than no-lynching though.

Hey Zang, Scum get fakelcaims. It ssays in Hoppla's Role PM. In fact, it says they get VT role Claims, and the chances that only 1 person gets VT? very little, although it's happened before, zoraster said it would be bastard mod because of the player, which means that he didn't bastard anything, including adding 1 VT, when everyone else has a PR.

This is ridiculous, wouldn't no VTs with the mod giving scum a VT role PM be more bastardly than just one VT?

And why is everybody in the town having a power role more likely than one VT? That's silly, games have to be balanced, which makes everybody in the town having a PR (especially given there's two protective roles) much more unlikely than one VT with scum having a gunsmith in order to detect the power roles.

[totallynotmafia]

Town have a vote blocker and a vetoer to counteract that. Add to that an EMT, a bodyguard, a tracker, a sham tracer, and a town cop detector and there's no surprise that there would be a VT and that there would be a gunsmith on the scum side. As you said yourself a single VT has been done before.

[totallynotmafia]

Sorry guys I've been really busy these last few days but I'll have time for a proper post tomorrow night.

[totallynotmafia]

Ok, firstly, Grimmy:

Zang is not scum.

The only way Zang could be scum is if he's a mafia gun planter or something, or if he's a third party that hasn't killed yet. The first option I find much less likely than Ani simply being scum, and if Zang is somehow a third party then we're screwed anyway. Basically, seeing as Ani is claiming I have a gun, it's between me and him right now.

And I understand why it might be hard to consider Ani as scum. The bus on Hoopla was elaborate with the whole Hoopla losing her key thing and it threw us all off the scent of a possible bus. I have to admit, that right before Ani claimed that I have a gun I did a re-read on him and Zang knowing that it was impossible for Grimmy to be scum, and after the re-read I was leaning much more towards Zang being scum, and that's why I was so surprised when Ani said I had a gun. Hindsight, as they say, is 20/20 though, and it's much easier to pick up on somebody's scummy behaviour when you know 100% for certain that they are scum. In this way Ani got greedy, because by framing me that revealed himself to be scum to me and allowed me to go back and point out why he is scum.

And so let me repeat, the three things that show that there is no way Ani is a town gunsmith:

1)

He voted for Hoopla immediately after claiming she had a gun. This is not how a town gunsmith would act as it states in the role PM that town members could also have guns, so the fact that Hoopla had a gun did not mean she was scum. Ani wasn't thinking of this of course because he was bussing his partner.

2)

He did the same thing when voting for Zang yesterday, and again if Ani actually were town gunsmith he would not have voted immediately for Zang as it's possible that bodyguards have guns. Ani was hoping that we would jump on the vote without considering that.

3)

He didn't vote for me after claiming I had a gun, and if I did have a gun as he claims then that would make me 100% scum in his eyes with my claim of VT so again this is not how a town gunsmith would act.

[totallynotmafia]

Ha, I just picked up on this:

I think alt creating and revealing what we did last night would be a good idea, as we get information at absolutley no cost to the town.

Then after he was asked why he didn't claim his result with a sham:

I'd rather not make a sham for Night Actions only, then discard it completly.

If Ani was town he would have created an alt to reveal his results as he first stated. As scum though and for his bus to work he obviously wanted to make it known that it was him that caught Hoopla with the gun.

Also, there's all that stupid arguing with UK, even when UK was proven to be scum! Why would a town member feel the need to defend their actions against known scum? Only scum would do this in order to distance.

And this is all he could say about the important business of the stumping of Fishy and UK:

Meh, sure. treestump. both of you.

Also, I was mistaken when I wrote this:

I kinda hate taking advantage of that but the timing of those last few posts makes it highly likely that Ani is town. Anyway, I'm interested to see what Hoopla's claim is.

I had missed the rule about scum being able to request fake role PMs, and that explains why Ani was able to post it so quickly because the fake town gunsmith role PM was the one that zoraster sent.

[totallynotmafia]

@TNM:

Your second point is invalid. You asked for them both to treestump as well. They were also both Neutral ATM, so that proves nothing.

Uhh...what? They had both clearly selected their sides by that point, hence the debate on whether or not they should treestump. And yes, I initially thought that them both treestumping was the safest move as I didn't entirely trust bananas, but after I realised that Fishy was bananas that allowed me to trust him enough to allow him at least one night to rolecop before stumping.

The difference between me and you is that I weighed up the pros and cons whereas you just said you were indifferent and then meh both should stump. You've been acting that way all game because you know that you don't have to put much effort in because most people assumed you were town because of the gunsmith role. If you were town you would have at least put some effort into scum-hunting. I even had to do all the work for you with your bus on Hoopla!

For your first point, people forget and/or change their minds.

You seriously expect people to believe that? Your defence is becoming laughable.

Ok, firstly, Grimmy:

Zang is not scum.

The only way Zang could be scum is if he's a mafia gun planter or something, or if he's a third party that hasn't killed yet. The first option I find much less likely than Ani simply being scum, and if Zang is somehow a third party then we're screwed anyway. Basically, seeing as Ani is claiming I have a gun, it's between me and him right now.

And I understand why it might be hard to consider Ani as scum. The bus on Hoopla was elaborate with the whole Hoopla losing her key thing and it threw us all off the scent of a possible bus. I have to admit, that right before Ani claimed that I have a gun I did a re-read on him and Zang knowing that it was impossible for Grimmy to be scum, and after the re-read I was leaning much more towards Zang being scum, and that's why I was so surprised when Ani said I had a gun. Hindsight, as they say, is 20/20 though, and it's much easier to pick up on somebody's scummy behaviour when you know 100% for certain that they are scum. In this way Ani got greedy, because by framing me that revealed himself to be scum to me and allowed me to go back and point out why he is scum.

And so let me repeat, the three things that show that there is no way Ani is a town gunsmith:

1)

He voted for Hoopla immediately after claiming she had a gun. This is not how a town gunsmith would act as it states in the role PM that town members could also have guns, so the fact that Hoopla had a gun did not mean she was scum. Ani wasn't thinking of this of course because he was bussing his partner.

2)

He did the same thing when voting for Zang yesterday, and again if Ani actually were town gunsmith he would not have voted immediately for Zang as it's possible that bodyguards have guns. Ani was hoping that we would jump on the vote without considering that.

3)

He didn't vote for me after claiming I had a gun, and if I did have a gun as he claims then that would make me 100% scum in his eyes with my claim of VT so again this is not how a town gunsmith would act.

Alright, for this #3, since I was wrong I was wrong about Zang, I thought I may have been wrong about you today, until lyou spammed out at me.

I knew you'd say something like that. That just does not make sense, if you were town gunsmith and you got a result of me having a gun you would know 100% that I was scum in that case given my claim of VT.

[totallynotmafia]

No, if I had a gun like you claim then that would make me scum because there is no way a VT would have a gun. It has nothing to do with Grimmy, who we already established was town by the way because he wasn't around to submit the NK.

You have done practically no scum-hunting at all, able to coast through the game without giving an opinion based on the gunsmith claim established after the bus on Hoopla. Town do not do this, they at least make some effort to scum-hunt because that is the whole point of the game, to find the mafia.

Zang and Grimmy, I urge you to look back through Ani's posts, there is no way that town would act the way he has.

[totallynotmafia]

Oh and don't forget that includes Clank's posts as well. I just found this gem:

Two points:

1. By "creative instincts" I think the mod meant that things like making a sham that appears to be a dead player and then using it post elsewhere would not be prohbited. Etcetera.

2.

Lynch Zang!

vote Zang

Ythill's been right about this game so far.

Here Ani is blatantly misusing the "Let's Play a Game!" thread, using it as an excuse to vote Zang so he doesn't have to give his own opinion.

[totallynotmafia]

Oh and don't forget that includes Clank's posts as well. I just found this gem:

Two points:

1. By "creative instincts" I think the mod meant that things like making a sham that appears to be a dead player and then using it post elsewhere would not be prohbited. Etcetera.

2.

Lynch Zang!

vote Zang

Ythill's been right about this game so far.

Here Ani is blatantly misusing the "Let's Play a Game!" thread, using it as an excuse to vote Zang so he doesn't have to give his own opinion.

this makes sence but why then? Ythill and Shadt.ed have been saying "Lynch Zang" the whole time the "Lets play a game" thread has been up

Why does it matter when he did it? The fact is he used the thread as an excuse to vote you. The whole point of the "Let's Play a Game!" thread was for people outside the game to pick up on scummy behaviour that we in the game might miss, and anybody who is town in this game would realise that people in that thread could be wrong about who they think is scum and thus it's ridiculous to just blindly follow them.

No, if I had a gun like you claim then that would make me scum because there is no way a VT would have a gun. It has nothing to do with Grimmy, who we already established was town by the way because he wasn't around to submit the NK.

I agree with this to but how does this make him scum?

It makes him scum because town wouldn't act like that. If you knew 100% someone was scum then wouldn't you vote for them immediately?

Think about it, if Ani was actually town gunsmith, don't you think that by this stage he would have actually been putting some thought into what it means when he gets a "they have a gun" result on someone? Put yourself in his shoes IF he was the town gunsmith. Last night, zoraster sends you the result that I have a gun. Wouldn't you then think: "Wow, that means TNM is scum because he claimed VT, and there is no way that a VT would have a gun! I'm going to go into the thread, tell everyone my result and why that makes him scum and vote his scummy arse!" IMHO this is one of the biggest scum-tells, because scum aren't thinking this way, they aren't thinking "catch the scum", they're thinking "act town and frame the town". The acting town bit is where Ani has consistently failed, as he hasn't once in this entire game looked like he has been trying to catch scum. Even the point where he bussed Hoopla he failed, because just because she had a gun didn't mean that she was necessarily scum.

But this should without a doubt show you that he is scum:

unvote, vote no lynch

because I feel no Lynch will be the best idea for right now. Either way, we get information.

Why is he no-lynching? If he was the town gunsmith like he claims, then he would know 100% that I'm scum. So then why would he no-lynch??? That's just ridiculous! What possible information would he need?

In the case that he is town, I am scum, and he would 100% know this.

There's no way a town member would no-lynch when they know who is scum. As scum Ani is just trying to get rid of one more town member in order to make it easier for him to win in lylo, so he only needs one person to believe him instead of two.

If this doesn't convince you guys he's scum then I don't know what will.

[totallynotmafia]

Bugger, another loss! I thought it was too unlikely there would be a gun framer, but this is only my third game of mafia so I wouldn't really know, in hindsight I should have checked through other games. I was almost going to suggest we no-lynch and have Zang protect Grimmy just so we could rule out that possibility, but by that stage I thought I was facing such an uphill battle with trying to convince Zang (Zang you played really well on that last day) and Grimmy that Ani was scum (sorry Ani) that I didn't want to over-complicate things. I'm happy I managed to convince Grimmy in the end, even though we lost the game.

This game was both really fun and incredibly frustrating (trying to convince people Hoopla was scum and trying to defend the fact I was the only VT). It's funny that scum thought they were going to lose because I was pretty sure town were going to lose after day 2 given some of the silly things town were doing, I was really beginning to wish I was scum.

Anyway, thanks zoraster for modding a fun game and congrats scum .