Mini 941: (Almost) No Rules Mafia (Game Over)

[Fishythefish]

Confirm.

[Fishythefish]

vote: xvart

I think extended, effortful jokey posts like that are more likely to come from scum than town.

[Fishythefish]

xvart. Could you please NOT post everything in fucking quote stripes? I'll respond SUCCINCTLY this time, but please try to respond in a more bulleted/link manner or other non quote response manner.

This.

UK's claim:
1. UK is a Macho Neutral Selector JOAT (MNSJOAT)
2. UK has "selected town".
3. There is another MNSJOAT.
4. If they select town, one of them becomes scum, and one of them town.
So, the "selection" hasn't taken place, in that UK doesn't have an alignment yet. I'm guessing that she'll get one at the end of day 1.
@UK: what happens if which lynch you before you get your alignment?

[Fishythefish]

My initial impression is that Bananas is likely town.

@UK: you say "formatting might help a lot". What is there in those PMs that you feel is convincingly not faked (apart from the role PM, which is null)?

It is notable that UK and Bananas agree on the scum powers. That is one scary scumbag.

unvote

[Fishythefish]

From Banana's play, UK is much more likely to be the scum JOAT. As scum JOAT claiming would be really, really odd - even if a UK lynch was guaranteed, I'd rather be hidden if I was scum with every power in the world. It's still a risk to leave him alive, and it may well be right to lynch him tomorrow. But for today, the right move is a UK lynch.

vote: UK

Bananas:
1. Is the role PM UK posted the same as yours (please check for small changes)?
2. If you have a way of confirming you are not the scum JOAT, use it tonight. Even if you have a more useful power.

[Fishythefish]

http://www.fourmilab.ch/javascrypt/jscrypt.html is good. Everyone should do this now:

1. Hit Generate
2. Copy & Paste the Key to somewhere where you won't lose it (preferably notes)
3. Enter your role unambiguously in
   Plain Text
   box (e.g. Vanilla Townie)
4. Hit "Encrypt"
5. Copy & Paste
   Cipher Text
   into thread

So I would end up posting:

##### Encrypted: decrypt with http://www.fourmilab.ch/javascrypt/
ZZZZZ ASIAE MUMDL XDCUH QBMTQ VWUCR VEIOI ACJWT DIRWW JGKIV QVQFB
PHQDB FFIQK ONUTV LFLJO FIPIG VGNWP PPNLC QNGJO EBEUA UANWO WBADX
ERBGK USJPQ UMBJJ EOOFP OJOZZ YYYYY
##### End encrypted message

in the thread.

Then, when someone is forced to claim, they post their Key in the thread. To verify a claim, simply copy & paste the above into

Cipher Text

, then copy & paste provided Key (in this case, BXBCN-BHZZR-ZEWBW-LTABK-YGCZX-NGWCX-PUKOJ-CWLHN-KKCDV-GPDIW-OFBVT-DNHOA) and Hit Decrypt. Role should appear in

Plain Text

box.

---

On another note, players could effectively daytalk by using Public-key cryptography to establish a shared key between them, and then encrypting messages to each other in thread. (People will be able to see that you're talking to someone if you address your messages; if you don't, then everyone will have to try & decrypt it with their key.) If people are interested, I'll dig something up.

This is a good plan.

Here's my roleclaim:

##### Encrypted: decrypt with http://www.fourmilab.ch/javascrypt/
ZZZZZ CVJUN LSOAG UXNBF OFFKS WUKQR HVVEJ WDMUI TIKXC JJNIU AOQRJ
WTADW GKDUJ VNCAU EFJIN VISOR TAMRT QEKUC GXHLK RVVGB QDOJR DTPGH
MXLIC UCHRP FLCDC GBNBF HLRZZ YYYYY
##### End encrypted message

[Fishythefish]

@ani: you misspelled "unvote".

[Fishythefish]

unvote

UK should treestump. I'm inclined to give Bananas one night to confirm himself/use a power.

Re: claims; it's very easy. Go to the first website linked in the Elmo post I quoted. Type in anything you would want in a role claim into the "plaintext" box, and a password into the "key" box. Press "encrypt". Paste what comes out here, and save the exact password. The whole process will take less than a minute.

When you want to claim, you give us the password, and we see your roleclaim.

There is no excuse not to do this. It is totally secure, and will lock scum into claims now. Let's get it done.

[Fishythefish]

Ah. A thought strikes in response to ani's claim.

Some people will have short roleclaims, and some long - and this is reflected in their cipher. Doesn't necessarily have much bearing on importance or anything else (the claims "cop" and quoting a cop role PM are pretty different in length), but it's still something I'd prefer not to be public information. I'd suggest that from now on, everyone pad out their claim with anything they like (should be english text though).

My apologies, I really should have thought of that before.

[Fishythefish]

No, it's fine. No need to do a PM, no need to fluff out the cipher. People who haven't done them yet are the ones who need to fluff out the ciphers.

[Fishythefish]

Some horrible logic going around on Bananas.

If bananas real account is NK will we ever know that bananas was killed? In this example, if the real bananas is killed N1 and we lynch UK D1 will the lynch of the dead bananas yield a NL verdict? That would be very tragic so it might be better to lynch bananas first and UK tomorrow since we know for sure who UK is. That is, of course, only if we are dead set on lynching them both back to back.

If Bananas's real account in NK'd, he will flip MNSJOAT, so we will know. The only reason to treestump him today is to prevent him using a night power (and for me, that risk is outweighed by his likely use of a protown night power).

I see no reason not to force both Bananas and UK to treestump now, to

A) prevent whichever one is scum from doing it later
B) prove that UK isn't a jester setting herself up with a comically elaborate plot

I very much doubt that the latter is the case but since I'm not 100% sold on UK being the scum of the pair then I'd appreciate this from ol' Nanas.

Also, is anyone due a prod?

B) would be solved by UK treestumping now. As for A) why would this be bad? Treestumping Bananas now takes away his night action - whatever alignment he is - and nothing else.

I don't really get this...if you are town then you know 100% that UK is scum...so how is that wasting a lynch? This makes me suspicious of you because maybe you're trying to hold off on the UK lynch now that many of us have said we're going to lynch you right after. I don't have a problem with you guys treestumping but I don't really see how that helps us, isn't it just a last ditch effort to save yourself?

You don't get treestumping, do you? It removes a player from the game, in all ways but their posts. Effectively, they are dead. So we don't need to lynch treestumped scum, and saving yourself by treestumping is pointless as scum.

I usually don't answer question which are (possibly) addressed to someone else. But in this case the answers are so obvious, and there is no reason for Bananas to waste a post on them.

Our decision is extremely simple - to we want Bananas to have a night action tonight? Hint: the answer is "Yes".

Since the only thing that's happened is the UK/Bananas affair, I'm going to analyse that in finding the other scum. Bad reactions to it:
- Espeonage. Wanted to see Banana's real account - with no reason. Then sheeped after it was clear that UK was likely going down.

Of the above:
- xvart I'm inclined to think was a misunderstanding. I also like his claim - although I'm wary of the same role, with mafia, who get something if we post the word (say a kill). If things go well otherwise, we should probably kill xvart by starving him of words.

From here on, the decision to give xvart his word should be a consensus one

.
-tnm's is a bit worse. He clearly hasn't thought about the situation. It helps, though, that his original reaction to the claims was good.
- CML's is worst of all. Basically, it makes no sense. It looks to me just like scum, who have seen a very desirable wagon, and are trying to make up any old crap to join it. In reasoning, and in timing, it completely sucks.

vote: CallMeLiam

- though I'd still much rather kill UK if she doesn't treestump.

[Fishythefish]

EBWOP: read the strategy thread. tnm is under the impression that stumped players retain night actions.

Bananas's post says that these actions are removed. The role PM UK quoted has no opinion on the matter.

@UK, Bananas: please clarify this issue.

If UK is retaining her night actions, we are lynching her.

Either way, it makes tnm's post not suspicious.

Please could everyone who believes it post:

UK should treestump, immediately

[Fishythefish]

Surely UK treestumping would prove she isn't a jester. And, therefore, isn't Bananas.

Sorry, by "hopping onto the wagon", I didn't actually mean that. I meant you saw people wanting Bananas treestumped, and decided to agree with them, because that is what is best for the scum.

I think the "UK jester" thing is an incredibly unlikely scenario. There's no reason to think it's true. Oh, and the mod told us it wasn't, in telling us the selectors had made their choice. A jester who can make the mod post things is a

ridiculously

overpowered role. It's a horrible distraction to the real argument.

The only question is which of UK and Bananas is town. UK's play is pretty much null, but Bananas's is exactly what you'd expect from town.

At some point, they both need to treestump, of course. The only question is: is the chance that Bananas (or UK) is town high enough that we want them to have a night action tonight? I think that the answer for UK is clearly no, and the answer for Bananas is clearly yes.

[Fishythefish]

Things:
@UK: sure, wait for a majority to treestump.
@tnm: you advocate lynches on UK and Bananas. Regardless of what we think of their alignments, I disagree. I'm prepared to treat UK as very likely scum for the purposes of analysis, but even if I wasn't I'd much rather have both treestumped than lynched. I see it as pretty much giving the town two free lynches - even if we are left wondering who was town.
I want to know the town powers. The scum will know them tonight (barring a correct lynch on UK/Bananas), and they will help us in our decision. I think we need to know them to make an informed decision on Bananas's stumping - whether he has a power worth using tonight, and whether he is confirmable. Unless he is confirmable, I find it extremely unlikely I won't want him stumped tomorrow.

The point on xvart is good thinking. A scum wordsmith whose buddies could say the words would be misleading to the point of bastardly. Definitely a good plan to have buddies say the words.

On the other hand, it could be that the power that derives from xvart's words isn't life - it could be a night action (even a kill). In which case scum saying the words still wouldn't do anything, but we wouldn't see that. Still, the plan is worth trying, and I see no downside. We will have to be careful - don't want scum quickselfhammering before saying the words to kill off xvart.

People who haven't yet cryptoclaimed need to do so asap. Takes 2 minutes, no reason not to do it as town, has the potential to seriously hurt the scum.

treestump votes for UK: me, tnm, xvart, UK, Zang (t-2)
treestump votes for Bananas: UK, Zang

[Fishythefish]

Two words.

Other rolecops.

Not necessarily a high order probability, but your lynch would be secured were you ever rolecopped. I can probably come up with other ways to make claiming viable if I thought about it hard enough.

I think it's fairly clear that the chance of Bananas being rolecopped, or caught in some other fairly rare investigative way, doesn't outweigh the benefits of not claiming. It comes down to this: either Bananas is town, or he is an idiot. He doesn't strike me as an idiot.

@Bananas, UK: please request mod clarification on "rolecop". Does it reveal alignment?

[Fishythefish]

Frivilous sham accounts with known users have a risk of outing Bananas, Gelid and other serious sham accounts, due to the "5 posts a day" thing. In particular, tnm should not confirm that he is tntnm (if, indeed, he is).

I'm aware I've been doing a lot of IIoA (as has everyone - which is fair enough). That's going to change, tonight.

@Gelid - why did you feel the need to claim tracker today? I don't understand what benefit you felt it had to the town.

[Fishythefish]

CoolDog's attitude to encrypted claims is wrong. Here are some plaintexts for claims:

"Vanilla" - short
"Cop" - short
"[Insert Vanilla role PM here]" - long
"[Insert cop PM here]" - long
"Vanilla. Have some fluff to obscure the length of my role. [Insert the text of Hamlet here]" - long
Now, the first two are different from the second three - and yes, we (I) should have noticed this earlier. In particular, it's possible to tell that a player doesn't have a role that needs a complicated claim. But that's not actually that indicative of how interesting/dangerous/killable a role is.

Also, I started the whole crypto claiming business. I think the benefits are huge - the scum have to decide on their fake claims day 1! The fact that there was a small problem with the process does not mean that it wasn't worth doing. I think overall it's so significantly and clearly protown that opposing it as you are doing is horrible.

I deplore the fact that CD has effectively claimed that he is a PR. Other people who reply to CD, or comment on cryptoclaims in general, should make sure they don't drop similar hints. Long claims can come from complicated PRs, or long role PMs quoted in full, or fluff to deceive people trying to get information. Don't tell anyone which it is.

My vote is on CallMeLiam. I think that his attitudes to Bananas/UK are bad, and I don't believe they are real. The fact that we can't be sure Bananas is town doesn't mean we should assume otherwise (on that basis we'd never do anything). The whole "they could be the same jester" nonsense is nonsense. A few people wanted Bananas stumped a little before CML's post, and he wanted to get rid of a dangerous opponent by harnessing that to get Bananas stumped - thus the jump on the wagon with terrible reasoning.

People who haven't cryptoclaimed (xvart and UK don't need to):
7. Espeonage
8. DedicatedScribe
9. DocPotter
Their next posts should involve a cryptoclaim.

A note on cryptoclaims: if you forget your password, when you are asked to claim you won't be able to.

You will be lynched

. Save your password somewhere safe (notes is a good place). You could forget all about your cryptoclaim for a month, and if you remember one digit wrong it will be nonsense.

[Fishythefish]

I don't understand how not lynching them is getting us two free lynches, we're going to have to lynch them both sometime down the track anyway (barring a successful cop investigation on one of them hint hint), and so I don't understand where the thinking comes from that we get two free lynches out of it. If we lynch them both now I believe what we learn from knowing which one is scum will help us hit scum again more than if we lynch somebody else today.

Sorry, I missed this. It gives us two free lynches in the sense that we get two more lynches than if we don't lynch them. If we win the game barring UK/Bananas (say night kills stop for a few nights), we lynch them both and win. We really can just totally ignore them until the end (in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if treestumped players didn't even count towards winning conditions - if we eliminate all the antitown players except treestumps, there's literally no way to lose the game). Except in that they aren't revealed, and they can post (which we can just ignore), it's like they are dead in every way.

Yeah, the information would be nice. But is it worth two lynches (and therefore two nightkill phases) to know for sure that UK is scum? I really, really think not. Suppose we are now in standard 9-3. Then with two nightkills and two lynches, we are in 6-2 with some info. With no nightkills and two treestumps, we are in 8-2 with no info. I really don't think the information we would gain is worth two townies. Similar things apply in multiscum - it's never worth two lynches to find out one scum alignment and one town alignment.

[Fishythefish]

Ok can I have that link again sorry. I will do a crypto claim. I have just been away from internet connection for the last two days.

http://www.fourmilab.ch/javascrypt/jscrypt.html is good. Everyone should do this now:

1. Hit Generate
2. Copy & Paste the Key to somewhere where you won't lose it (preferably notes)
3. Enter your role unambiguously in
   Plain Text
   box (e.g. Vanilla Townie)
4. Hit "Encrypt"
5. Copy & Paste
   Cipher Text
   into thread

So I would end up posting:

##### Encrypted: decrypt with http://www.fourmilab.ch/javascrypt/
ZZZZZ ASIAE MUMDL XDCUH QBMTQ VWUCR VEIOI ACJWT DIRWW JGKIV QVQFB
PHQDB FFIQK ONUTV LFLJO FIPIG VGNWP PPNLC QNGJO EBEUA UANWO WBADX
ERBGK USJPQ UMBJJ EOOFP OJOZZ YYYYY
##### End encrypted message

in the thread.

Then, when someone is forced to claim, they post their Key in the thread. To verify a claim, simply copy & paste the above into

Cipher Text

, then copy & paste provided Key (in this case, BXBCN-BHZZR-ZEWBW-LTABK-YGCZX-NGWCX-PUKOJ-CWLHN-KKCDV-GPDIW-OFBVT-DNHOA) and Hit Decrypt. Role should appear in

Plain Text

box.

Note: it's worth padding a short claim with fluff in order to hide the length of your PM. If you are doing this, just put anything you like (should be English though) after your claim before encrypting it. Make sure to keep the exact password somewhere safe.

On a related note, I earlier asked for a precise definition of rolecop. This should not happen until everyone has cryptoclaimed.

@mod:

A prod on DocPotter, please?

[Fishythefish]

@UK: I see tnm neither as particularly scummy nor as VI. On the contrary, I've found him fairly protown, with a couple of good ideas. What are his "lot of questionable actions"?

I kind of agree that ani's disappearance is badly timed and a bit suspect. His not-really-caring attitude to UK/Bananas also sucks.

[Fishythefish]

Espeonage could be scum thinking up a fakeclaim, I suppose.

Re: tnm. "Let's play a Game" actually turns out to be quite protown imo (cryptoclaim idea and details came from there). I don't think there's anything wrong with starting such a thread, although the OP of the thread did give me trying-to-get-towncred vibes. tntnm was a joke sham account - not useful, and slightly antitown, but scummy? I don't really see it.

[Fishythefish]

I think it's absolutely horrible the way that no player who wants Bananas stumped has addressed any of the questions asked about why. There are good reasons to think Bananas is probably town. If he is probably town, there are good reasons to let him live tonight, and stump him in the morning. Ignoring this and just saying "stump em both!" with no justification is unreasonable.

@DedicatedScribe: whatever else you do, please, please cryptoclaim. It takes 2 minutes and is very protown.

@Hoopla: going by the role PM of UK, we find out neither alignment if they stump.

[Fishythefish]

Note that Bananas's powers are now claimed:
Rolecop, which may or may not reveal alignment (I want an answer to this from Bananas AFTER all cryptoclaims are out)
Jailkeep
I think we should let him use rolecop tonight. Tomorrow, I'm conflicted between letting him live and treestumping. If he is scum, he'll still be a powerful force (he has tracker, rolecop, roleblock, ninja), whereas if he's town he's all but expended (jailkeep is so meh). If he's rolecopped a town player, the scum might well have to deal with him at night before he outs said player anyway. On balance, the risk of scumBananas living for a long time isn't worth the reward of townBananas living, and I think I'd rather he was treestumped.

[Fishythefish]

I repeat that the rolecop question should not be answered until everyone has cryptoclaimed.

The reason for this is that if it detects alignments, scum may as well just lie in their claims. If it doesn't, they have an incentive to tell the truth.

[Fishythefish]

I don't believe that UK would ignore my good reason not to out the details of rolecop yet if she were town. I am increasingly convinced of UK-scum.

On a side note, at least we can be fairly sure there are no Editors in the game .

[Fishythefish]

I originally called for clarification. Then I said these.

On a related note, I earlier asked for a precise definition of rolecop. This should not happen until everyone has cryptoclaimed.

Note that Bananas's powers are now claimed:
Rolecop, which may or may not reveal alignment (I want an answer to this from Bananas AFTER all cryptoclaims are out)

I repeat that the rolecop question should not be answered until everyone has cryptoclaimed.

The reason for this is that if it detects alignments, scum may as well just lie in their claims. If it doesn't, they have an incentive to tell the truth.

Your post was 280. You aren't looking very hard. The reason being, you aren't looking at all. The reason being, you're lying. The reason being, you're scum.

I mean, seriously? You missed all three of these posts while specifically looking for calls from me not to claim what it does yet? I don't believe that for a second.

[Fishythefish]

@everyone: I think CML is scum. Do you agree? If not, who is scum, other than UK (or Bananas)?

UK/Bananas is important. cryptoclaims are important. But we need a lynch today, and for that we need some scumhunting.

Here is one more piece of theoryish stuff though; we can leave "in the event of my death..." messages if we want to. PMs get revealed on death, so you can say "here is an encyrpted message. The key is the 13th, 14th and 15th words in my PM, including capitilisation and punctuation."

[Fishythefish]

FoS:

Espeonage. "Using a sham account" is not something I see as an automatic scumtell. Please say why you think scum are more likely to do this than town - I can't see a plausible reason.

[Fishythefish]

Hmmmm. I think tnm has a point about Bananas's real identity. And since I'm the only one with a vote on that particular matter -
I am Bananas.
Reasons for doing this -
1. Getting NK'd isn't a terrible result.
2. I want to be able to push the excellent arguments why I should live openly whenever I like.
3. With rolecop less powerful, the arguments for staying hidden aren't that strong.
My cryptoclaim's plaintext is "I am Bananas" or similar. The key is UKisscumJ0AT, where the "0" of "J0AT" is a zero. Bananas will post shortly to confirm.

I think the town should leave me alive today. Rolecop is still potentially very useful - I might find a scummish role, and if they have fakeclaimed their game is up. Rolecop basically forces scum to claim their real roles today, or risk being outed. I might find a townish role - in which case I can sit on the information until we need it. A few examples-
Very likely or likely town
Cop
Gunsmith
Vig
Miller
Mason
Bodyguard
(With UK's role), tracker, roleblocker at least won't be UK's mafia.
Double voter
Super Saint
Backup for any of the above
I've never seen a scum watcher, but one could exist, I suppose.

Scum roles are rarer, but redirectors of all kinds (inc. bus driver) are scummy.

Of course, if I see they do nothing, they are a doctor, and probably some other things, it's not that useful. But there are very decent odds my rolecop gives us useful information to some extent.

So, that's why it's worth leaving a protown rolecop alive. Here's why I am a protown rolecop:

I can't say this enough times. Put yourself in my shoes, as an MNSJOAT with UK already claimed. The coin flips, and you get an alignment. If you are town, how would you play? If you are scum, how would you play? I've got a fair amount of towncred out of this play, and it's still universally acknowledged that I'm going to be dead (or rather stumped) by the end of day 2 (although I fully intend to lynch one scum, rolecop another, and get trusted). This was

totally

predictable. I'm no idiot when it comes to game mechanics. It is obvious that both MNSJOATs have no chance to get to endgame. As scum, you sit quiet, you kill UK, and you use your awesome powers thereafter. As town, you do exactly what I've done. You out the scum, you force their stumping, and you try to get one powerful night action in before your own death. I've got significant towncred out of this claim, and

still

if I was scum I'd have done better to sit there cackling.

Scumhunting time:
- CML.
When called on posting more game relevant stuff in the "Let's play a Game!" (LpaG) thread, he denied this. Now, firstly, I think that giving opinions and asking questions there more than here should be a scumtell. It's trying to get validation for your ideas from players who have no effect in the game. But much worse, it's not the action of someone who wants the town to know his opinions and perhaps follow them. If you think xvart is scum, you should be going for his lynch. If you are going for his lynch, you should be trying to persuade me he is scum. But you're not. Asking him questions here and giving your opinions there is weird - it looks like an attempt to push his wagon without committing to it.

DP attacks him over this, and he immediately pulls the "you're his scumbuddy" line, and

votes DP

. Rather than respond to DP's actual arguments (which are that he's been doing things in LpaG he should have been doing here), he undermines them with an arbitrary pairing, supported by nothing except two players agreeing on one point. Also, if A is scummy, and B becomes linked to A, the natural reaction is always to vote A. You had a scummy player, now scummier via the link - he must be scummier than the person who is only a potential partner.
Later, he explains this by saying DP has answered his concerns. This may be true, but he didn't say so at the time, and it's the obvious way to withdraw from your suspicions as scum.

When xvart makes a good point about CML's directing LpaG, CML strawmans it into a crude "LpaG is useless and scummy" argument.

On UK/Bananas(me), he says they should both die, and goes on to ask them "if they'd mind dieing first". Now, the first point is a reasonable one. Both dieing was certainly a credible stance, at least. But the second is just weird. Of course neither wants to die first. This isn't a scumhunting question - but it is a way in which you could cast aspersions on anyone who answered it honestly. Feels like he wants a way to change from the obvious read on UK/Bananas.

The bit I've talked about before, and really dislike, is after I brought up treestumping (why did I do that, btw?). Two people (IIRC) had made "stump em both" noises, and CML came up with this gem:

I see no reason not to force both Bananas and UK to treestump now, to

A) prevent whichever one is scum from doing it later
B) prove that UK isn't a jester setting herself up with a comically elaborate plot

I very much doubt that the latter is the case but since I'm not 100% sold on UK being the scum of the pair then I'd appreciate this from ol' Nanas.

Read this. What does A) even mean? What is the harm in scum treestumping later, exactly? B) is, and always was, obvious BS. CML isn't thinking about the risks and rewards of leaving Bananas alive, and isn't saying how convinced he is of alignment. In other words, he's not addressing

any

relevant points here. This is the stance of someone who wants to sound like they have a reason to stump Bananas - not the stance of someone who has thought about what is happening.
He does later say he doesn't want a "free night to have superscum around". But in this case, what's actually happening is that there is a small chance that superscum is around, and a large chance that supertown is around (at that point, protown abilities were unclaimed, and could have been very powerful indeed). CML is only looking at one side of the picture - a worst case scenario - which is at best poor play and more likely an attempt to get a powerful protown role lynched.

I expected to address other players (and will still do so when I get a chance), but noone else compares with CML. Let's lynch this scumbag.

[Fishythefish]

@ mod et al.

: access won't be spectacular this weekend. Should be on occasionally, and normal service should be resumed on Monday/Tuesday.

[Fishythefish]

Lynching UK is a bit mad. I have outed myself as Bananas, btw. We don't need to waste a lynch on a treestump, who won't even flip until I'm dead. All sham accounts have that limit. You need to cryptoclaim, immediately. See page 9 or so for details.

[Fishythefish]

Fishy/UK:

Was there any wording or notification indicating that upon the selection being made the scum team would be notified immediately who was the scum half of the role?

xvart.

UK quoted the role PM in full. And no, no indication was given either way.

[Fishythefish]

Oh and DeathNote: you don't have to be tech savvy at all. Follow the link, follow the instructions, copy paste - very very easy.

[Fishythefish]

@DN: thanks for claiming. You'll need the precise text of your password when you want to reveal it - be sure to keep it safe.

@ani: I'm Bananas. Unless I've done something really awesome (ie. blatantly lynched scum (and it looks like a one faction game), caught scum with rolecop, died), I'm going to treestump tomorrow. I want to use rolecop first - it's got a decent chance of being very helpful. I've presented arguments about why I'm very likely town from your PoV.

@UK et al.: Yeah, I decided from the outset that staying hidden wasn't a huge priority. Being NK'd wasn't an ideal outcome, but being lynched was a million times worse.

@everyone: Stop talking about me! We've said enough on that topic. We need more scumhunting. Or, rather, votes for CML.

[Fishythefish]

Hi CMAR, and thanks for replacing in.
A quick rundown of a couple of aspects of the game, to help you reread:
Myself and UK were paired MNSJOATs - Macho Neutral Selector Jacks of all Trades. We both attempted to become towns (in our "selecting" capacity). I succeeded, and she failed - although this is not public knowledge. I claimed using a sham account, Bananas. She has since been forced to treestump. I intend to treestump tomorrow, most likely, because the town is worried that I could be scum.
We have been "cryptoclaiming" - claiming in code to pin people into claims for later. This only takes a couple of minutes, and it would be good if you could do it asap. Here is a link.

@Hoopla: don't know what I can say. Reread the thread, and work out who the scum are. Noone else seems to be.

[Fishythefish]

EBWOP: that last sentence isn't fair. I'm just a little frustrated at the pace of scumhunting in this game.

[Fishythefish]

Congratulations to Hoopla, nice kill. One scumteam flavour, note.

On the offchance that you have any more kills, I agree that daykilling UK and I would be a good thing, though I'd still like a night to rolecop. Hoopla should not comment on whether he has any more kills, of course.

[Fishythefish]

So, things arising from Hoopla's fakekill:
1. Yeah, I was playing along. I've been checking the mod's name pretty carefully.
2. CMAR's reaction after reveal is "surprised, wants to analyse (but doesn't)". In other words, useless and potentially fencesitting as to whether Hoopla is scummy. This is backed up by his immediate fluff post, and his move onto Hoopla since.
3. I think the votes for Hoopla and other demands to explain are just weird. Can anyone think of a way in which Hoopla's actions were going to permanently hurt the town or help any other faction? I can't.
4. xvart on Hoopla is goodposting. That xvart guy is soooo town.

Right now, I'm up for lynching CMAR or CML. I will be active before deadline.

@mod: sorry, I suck at timezones and daylight savings time. Could you give the deadline in terms of hours from a post if possible?

[Fishythefish]

Hmmm. Also, if Hoopla

is

scum, likely so is the default lynch for the day. Whoever that was. I'll look later to see if there's an obvious one.

[Fishythefish]

Bleh. Lynches are better than no lynches. I have no great opinions as to HMN's alignment, but I suppose it could come from mafia forgetting it can be lynched. It's also annoying that if HMN has scumbuddies, they don't even know he is scum, so wagon analysis is useless.

unvote, vote: Hate_Me_Not

We need a hammer asap.

CML claims a cop census taker. This is a role which would work equally well for scum as for town (although the sanities part would point slightly to town, I suppose).

[Fishythefish]

May I please point out that by lynching this Sham account, you could be lynching UK whom is a tree stump. If she is maf, that would make sense for the sham account not to claim and allow himself/herself to be lynched.

This is a really good point.

Right now, we have 2h 15m until deadline. We need 6 for a lynch. We have 5 on HMN, and 2 on CML, who I consider the only other viable lynch candidate.

I can guarantee I will be on shortly before deadline. I will switch to CML if that lynch is an option. So we need three more. Hoopla, you in? DeathNote?

HMN is much better than a no lynch, but CML is better still if we can make it. I've given some good reasons why he's likely scum.

[Fishythefish]

Hmmm.

My instinct is that a lynch on a treestump is a wasted lynch. However, I suppose it would confirm me as town, and I do like being confirmed town, if only very briefly. It would help with wagon analysis tomorrow to know the answers in UK/Bananas.

I think I still prefer CML as a lynch, if we can get the numbers (still need 1 more other than Hoopla and me).

A reminder: I'm macho. No doctors, jailkeepers, watchers, bodyguards, etc. welcome.

[Fishythefish]

OK.

unvote, vote: CML

L-1. Next person on hammers.

[Fishythefish]

@xvart: I'd die tonight. So we would be trading our lynch for a scum kill.

[Fishythefish]

Damn. Really though I had that one right. Back to the drawing board later tonight.

[Fishythefish]

Also unless he finds scum tonight or somewhow proves himself town I think Fishy should stump tomorrow, my trust of him has waned after CML's flip.

I'd rather not discuss this in detail tonight - I suspect that whether or not to kill me is a difficult decision for the scum I don't want to help them with.

Frankly, I'm trying my hardest to ignore UK on all matters. It is the bad kind of WIFOM, because her only motive is to mislead us. That being said, I need to reread ani.

*rereads ani*

Wow, that was quick. ani is lurking, and other than that there's nothing to say about his play. ani, stop lurking, please.

[Fishythefish]

EBWOP: UK also has the motive of appearing town. But as she isn't going to manage that AND she's stumped anyway, that's probably fairly secondary.

[Fishythefish]

I assume you are referring to cryptoclaiming, which CoolDoG actually did.

[Fishythefish]

Now that is a really good point. Grimmy needs to cryptoclaim, then.

[Fishythefish]

You were unable to use your power last night.

It looks like there is a roleblocker other than UK on the scum side. Which points to multiscum, tbh - 2 roleblockers on one team would be weird. Alternatively, scum could have some way of shrouding one of them - because of this possibility, I'm inclined to reveal my attempted target. Any objections?

Obviously, I'd rather not treestump. It's best to have as many townies with votes as possible. It would also force the scum to continue to use powers on me. However, the lynch I pushed hard yesterday being a mislynch, and I failed to get a result last night. If the town wants me stumped, I will of course do it.

[Fishythefish]

@tnm: that was the first and only pm I received from the mod. I received it at about the same time I got the "start of day" pm.

[Fishythefish]

NOONE should post xvart's word until we have thought about it. I have thoughts on this, but no time right now.

[Fishythefish]

The town lost because of
- A lost cryptokey
- A miscounted NL
- A framer
Ah well. So it goes.

My analysis of the MNSJOATs is that, with shams and treestumping, they were somewhat broken. UK's claim made it easy for me, but even otherwise, the town JOAT was always able to shamclaim. If the scum didn't counter, the town JOAT was clear. If the scum did counter, they both treestump. The net effect, if played perfectly, would have been neither role in the game past d1.

[Fishythefish]

@zoraster: Shams targettable by both would have been somewhat pointless. I think shams were good the way they were; it's just that that means you have to be

extremely

careful with other roles in terms of balance.