Mini 905- Mafia in Sienna OVER

[Sotty7]

/confirm

[Sotty7]

Sotty7, what's the best method for catching scum?

Paying attention.

Vote: Oman

I thought it was pretty clear that Elli was joking around.

[Sotty7]

Leaf have you played many games of online mafia before?

[Sotty7]

Also, it sort of looks like you are trying to help Ellibereth in a subtle manner.

Are you saying they are linked then?

[Sotty7]

How do you know Leaf is an innocent townie?

[Sotty7]

How do you know Leaf is an innocent townie?

That's just my inference from his posts so far. He is just scumhunting.

Still that is quite a leap. What parts of his scum hunting do you agree with in particular?

Thesp, why the confid vote?

I'm not liking pman's jumping around and harping on Elli so hard. It really seems counter productive.

Explain your reasons!
No.
...Why?
Cause.
Gah EXPLAIN!
Nope.

And the circle continues.

Pman, why is not explaining your reasons silly/stupid? Can you really not think of any reasons why with holding reasons might be helpful?

[Sotty7]

Sotty7 - You've mainly been criticising other people's play, while not making much yourself. Who do you think is scum?

After thinking things over I have pman and Wickedestjr as scum

Unvote, Vote: Pman

pman because of his hopping all over the place and pushing an unhelpful circular line of thought/argument with Elli. Wicked because of the part of his post here:

So, if it was, in fact, a joke, what were you hoping to gain out of it?

What reactions were you looking for?

What was the purpose of the question in red, if the question in green pretty much gives Ellibereth a hint? Also, as for the green question, what told you Ellibereth was looking for reactions? I looked through his posts and I see nothing that indicates that. Those two questions were pointless. Also, it sort of looks like you are trying to help Ellibereth in a subtle manner.

Vote: Leafsnail

Feels like epic reaching to me, I see nothing wrong with the question you asked. Then he also tries to tie Elli and Leaf together with some weak distancing call. Not buying it.

[Sotty7]

It is interesting how pman calls you an "innocent townie" and that you have a town read on him.

This is an idle comment intended to make me look more scummy. If you were serious, you'd vote or ask me a followup question.

I don't think it was a idle comment at all, it was a good observation. You don't have to be asking questions 24/7 to be serious.

[Sotty7]

jumping all over the place? please enlighten me.

about the whole crap with Elli, is there a problem trying to get someone to explain why they voted someone? is that really a scumtell now?

And if you are voting because of gut, explain why you get that gut feeling, as it obviously couldn't have come out of nowhere.

Nowhere did I say my vote was on gut. Why did you even ask that question?

When I say hopping I around that's just what I mean. You jumped on Elli and kept pushing him to answer his question. He wouldn't, while I agree that isn't helpful, neither is you asking that question over and over just to get the same result. You then proceeded to

unvote

him for a sarcastic vote that means what exactly? Are you even suspicious of Wicked at all?

You have since unvoted again but didn't bother to place your vote back on Elli, why not? Is he annoying or is he scummy? If it is the latter where is your vote? If it is the former why aren't you scum hunting?

Also this please:

How do you know Leaf is an innocent townie?

That's just my inference from his posts so far. He is just scumhunting.

Still that is quite a leap. What parts of his scum hunting do you agree with in particular?

tl;dr case: Staying under the radar and active lurking.

No. Leaf is anything but UtR and I think he has been one of the players actively pushing the game forward. What do you think of CTD?

Preview edit: I see you do give some thoughts on CTD later. Can you post exactly what Leaf was doing that makes you think he was fake scum hunting or trying to slip under the radar?

Can you explain what's giving you this impression?

If my answer to pman up there ^ doesn't explain it enough for you then let me know.

Oman - Your meta-grounds for voting seem fairly weak. Is his behaviour extremely different in this game?

Not different enough that I'm tunnelvisioned. Different enough to twig something in me.

Also, I'm aware that it's weak, but I think it's the best we've got.

Oman, what do you think of pman and Leaf?

[Sotty7]

These two strike me as disingenuous, particularly the last one because he said this. Unless I was supposed to take him totally seriously that he thought I was scum because I had Mafia Scum under my name.

Are you saying there is no difference between making a RVS joke vote and continually joking in the game once it's gotten serious?

So that's what I was seeing. "Staying under the radar" may not be the right term for what I'm seeing, so I'll try to describe it again. Basically, I feel like he was trying to avoid connections with other players, but since doing that would make him look lurktastic and scummy I feel like he opted to ask a bunch of irrelevant/semi-relevant/reactionary questions to make it look like he was doing something.

Am I making any sense?

Not really.

The questions he asked MME, confid and Thesp could easily be Leaf looking to see these players motivations for doing what they do. While there is a little theory involved figuring out what that player thinks is important and doesn't look like he is trying to avoid connections to me. I might be inclined to give you this point if Leaf continued to push the theory point of these questions. He didn't, so I think you are reaching.

My suspicions of Sotty7 are much less severe. I don't like her current suspicions (neither of them) and I didn't like her early Oman vote. The rest is gut. Not enough to start a wagon on, but I wanted it on record.

What don't you like about them? I will say that Wicked isn't as strong as pman and that kitten has climbed above him as my number two right now.

I'm disliking the Kitten4u wagon even more.

You disliked it in the first place? How come?

I will give confid another read today.

[Sotty7]

Fast replacements for the win.

I'm disliking Elli more and more.

How come? You don't even mention him in the rest of your post.

[Sotty7]

pman

can you please respond to post 165

My gut is telling me that Leaf is town. The questioning thing is something I often find myself doing as town when I am still getting my sea legs under me. Ythill's case surrounding the Leaf scum talk question is pretty good, but I don't think it is enough to convince me to vote for Leaf.

I don't get how Budja finds Kitten obv town. Does this mean you agree with her rational that leaf is under the radar and/or active lurking?

[Sotty7]

Pnman do you still find Elli scummy?

How come? You don't even mention him in the rest of your post.

Eh, Elli's a pretty cool guy. Shamelessly bandwagons and doesn't afraid of anything.

I am guessing you are being sarcastic, but this doesn't really answer the question. If the shameless bandwagoning bothers you why aren't you pushing him on it?

Any chance of a vote count?

[Sotty7]

I would also very much like to hear a claim from Kitten. I'm kinda busy at the moment I will try and check in this afternoon when I get home to catch up on the posts I missed.

[Sotty7]

Had some interweb/board issues yesterday that meant I couldn't actually access the game. Catching up for reals now.

[Sotty7]

The absence of an answer to a question can definately still tell you something. I feel that scum would be more likely to answer all the questions and try to get me off their backs.

Don't like this justification. Wouldn't scum just as likely ignore questions they don't want to answer? Wouldn't town want to answer all the questions put to them to make sure people see their towness?

If the shameless bandwagoning bothers you why aren't you pushing him on it?

Two things. First, Leafy is still worse in my opinion. Second, there's not really much to push when someone is shamelessly bandwagoning.

It doesn't matter who is worse. There should be more than one scum in this game. You could at least attempt to ask him some questions. Just saying you don't like Elli is such a throw away comment if you aren't going to put any pressure on him.

Okkkkkk, my gut now pings town on Kit for some reason. Leaving vote on for now but I still think that a Budja wagon would be good.

If you are reading Kitten town and want a wagon on Budja why not move your vote? Also why is your gut pinning town suddenly, all Kitten did was claim, what changed?

Kitten's post 258 was actually pretty good, explained things much better. I still don't really agree with her conclusion but I can now see how she got there. With that in mind I agree with Oman that Elli looks to just be role fishing, he hopped on the wagon specifically for the claim and has since said he has a gut town read on Kitten despite not taking the time to jump off and push others. This makes him jump up my scum list.

Went back and had another look at confid like I said I would and there isn't much there. His vote on Leaf was weak because he simply doesn't explain it. Bujda has replaced in and also done much of nothing. His turn on Kitten doesn't feel like a scum move but he really needs to get into the game here.

Unvote, Vote:Elli

Mainly for the explanation surrounding his Kitten jump. Voting someone for a wagon is a lot different than voting for a claim and I don't like that he has now parked his vote on a gut town read keeping her close to a lynch.

[Sotty7]

That said, Kitten is now the best lynch, even over elli, as the risk/reward swings in favour of a kitten lynch, being that we have the claim and it's VT. Proper etiquette says kitten hangs, and elli is just running bad play.

Are you saying that with the Elli/Kitten link we should lynch Kitten first because of the townie claim?

His turn on Kitten doesn't feel like a scum move but he really needs to get into the game here.

Do you think it's "not-a-scum-move" or "town-move"?

This in reference to bujda's 180 on Kitten before “reading” the thread.

I don't think it is a town move, but in the same breath I don't see scum drawing attention to themselves in such a manner so I'm feeling pretty null on it. But when you put it side by side his lack of contribution I don't see anything overly townie from him so that is a worry. But right now I am find others scummier aka Elli.

[Sotty7]

That said, Kitten is now the best lynch, even over elli, as the risk/reward swings in favour of a kitten lynch, being that we have the claim and it's VT. Proper etiquette says kitten hangs, and elli is just running bad play.

Are you saying that with the Elli/Kitten link we should lynch Kitten first because of the townie claim?

His turn on Kitten doesn't feel like a scum move but he really needs to get into the game here.

Do you think it's "not-a-scum-move" or "town-move"?

This in reference to bujda's 180 on Kitten before “reading” the thread.

I don't think it is a town move, but in the same breath I don't see scum drawing attention to themselves in such a manner so I'm feeling pretty null on it. But when you put it side by side his lack of contribution I don't see anything overly townie from him so that is a worry. But right now I am find others scummier aka Elli.

[Sotty7]

Don't like this justification. Wouldn't scum just as likely ignore questions they don't want to answer? Wouldn't town want to answer all the questions put to them to make sure people see their towness?

But when combined with the newbtells I've been getting off Ellibereth, it seems to point me towards town. Newb town has a tendancy to be useless like this while newbscum tends to aim to please more.

I have the opposite impression of Elli than you do. I doubt very much he is a newb, can you show me what these newbtells actually are?

I see you have changed your characterization of Elli to obstructive town now. If you concede that he is no longer a newb, where are you still cutting him slack?

I'm breezing though right now but I will read Wick's case on pnman this afternoon.

[Sotty7]

Vote: Kitten

This is partly because with Elli's flip and how quick the wagon went from Kitten over to Elli. If Kitten truly is a VT I don't see scum expending the energy to flip wagons. But also because I agree with Ythill and that Kitten's lack of vote for Elli while at the same time approving his wagon feels scummy to me.

I can see Bujda as a her partner here and can understand his wagon but I want to hear from him first before I decide if I want to jump on or not.

Wicked's case on Pman is somewhat of a stretch, I agree with some points and do still find pman scummy, but I think the case is a little inflated in parts. Point 7, 8 and 9 seem like points that are repeated and redundant. He really needs to catch up because I am starting to feel like the playing from behind thing is becoming an excuse.

[Sotty7]

I don't really have a problem with how Sotty7 got on the wagon, but looking back, I do have a problem with her behavior towards Kitten4U at the hight of her wagon, namely the fact that she very much wanted to hear a claim from Kitten, but wasn't willing to add her vote to the cast when she very much had the chance a little earlier.

It wasn't until Kitten took the time to actually explain her thinking that I thought she could be town. I found Elli's reaction to her wagon and wanting a claim/wagoning was much worse than my bad feelings about her so I chose an Elli vote over a Kitten vote.

Why the pman vote?

[Sotty7]

Moriarty is also slacking. He said he had read the thread already but still nothing. I could move over to Wicked I guess, either way this lurking is getting way out of hand.

[Sotty7]

Moriarty's post would be great if I thought he was a townie. It makes much more sense that the wagon was pushed away from him because he is scum. I just don't see how it makes sense with him being town.

I was beginning to get a bad feeling from Oman, but his day 2 behaviour makes me a lot happier.

What about his recent behavior do you like?

Wicked isn't helping himself. His 373 defense wasn't moving and if anything felt dismissive of the points against him. I am going to want to see something in response to Oman's points on him today. The token suspicion patched on at the end of the post just doesn't feel right. The only thing that is giving me some pause about Wick, is the pman vote. I am still very high on pman scum.

Still really want to hear more from Thesp and CTD. I don't have much of read on either and we're already deep into day two.

[Sotty7]

Who are the scum that pushed the wagon away? Be specific - this is a very targetted accusation you're making broadly, and I don't like it.

I'm looking at Wicked, Oman and Pman when it comes to that. It's true Wicked didn't join the Elli lynch but he did push a different wagon once Kitten became pressured. Oman is more of a wild card in there and I have liked his pressure on Wick today. Pman has been scummy for most of the game, and his worry surrounding voting for Wick today gives me pause about that wagon.

I am sorry but I won't be able to finish catching up. I swear I am not lurking. I have just been extremely busy lately. Check out my other game and you'll see I'm catching up in it too. Also, CTD brings up a good point regarding Thesp. He usually figures out some of the scum, but I don't think he's right about any of his suspects.

What games have you played with Thesp? CDT, same question to you to please.

[Sotty7]

I am sorry but I won't be able to finish catching up. I swear I am not lurking. I have just been extremely busy lately. Check out my other game and you'll see I'm catching up in it too. Also, CTD brings up a good point regarding Thesp. He usually figures out some of the scum, but I don't think he's right about any of his suspects.

What games have you played with Thesp? CDT, same question to you to please.

I played with Thesp in Mafia Island which was a newbie game modded by Khelvaster, and I also played with him in Mafia at the Border which was also a newbie game modded by Khelvaster. I have also read large portions of Invitational 4 and Face to Face Mafia. Thesp happened to be in those.

Well the point here is both you and CTD have put Thesp up on this high level were he looks scummy if he doesn't break the game right away. It is an impossible high standard even for the best scum hunter.

I have played with Thesp twice. One game he was scum and was pretty active but the game was bogged down by less than fun players. The second game he was town and pretty lurky until the end. I haven't seen ThespTown bust open a whole or part of scum team. So if you have any links to show this, I'd like to see.

[Sotty7]

Thanks for the links CTD. I will have a little look probably tomorrow. I am strapped for time today.

I've reviewed Ythill's case against Wick, and I think it has merit. So let's see where it goes.

What parts of the case in particular have merit to you?

[Sotty7]

Anyway. This is probably over-speculation, but the role most likely to be replaced iis probably a vanilla townie. As it is the hardest role to "get in to" IMO. Add that to my mostly town read on budja and I don't think Fate is scum. Wickedestjr, however, is the person that needs to be looked at for fluff and waffling.

This is a stretch. Different players react to different roles and a lot of people like to draw VT. It looks like that player slot just drew two flaky players back to back. Can you explain how you got a town read on Bujda? He did next to nothing when he was here.

I don't see an issue with Fate's entrance. Would be nice if he explained his reads a little more, but I agree with his vote on Pman.

[Sotty7]

Deadline is a week away Thesp. There is still plenty of time to push your number one.

[Sotty7]

Sorry guys I have been crazy busy these last few days. I should have time this afternoon to catch up. If not then I will make time tomorrow morning.

[Sotty7]

Fate are you saying you see a link between Thesp and Wick?

Also Wick, it's pretty clear that you are at lynch-1. Stop stalling and claim.

[Sotty7]

This is ridiculous.

Wick, where are you?

[Sotty7]

Interesting turn of events.

Perhaps Pman is a godfather...

huh? I don''t get how wicked's claim, which i don't believe, btw, would make me the godfather

I think he is referring to the fact some GF's are night kill immune.

Deadline is in less than a day? Where did the time go? Maybe I shouldn't have given Thesp such a hard time about not pushing his number one lynch. We did waste a lot of time waiting for Wick to claim, and I have to side with Oman, I think we keep him alive for now. The kill not going though is a little fishy but if he is scum we can catch him in the lie as the game goes on.

Unvote, Vote: Pman

Seeing as the Moriarty wagon isn't going to reach a lynch today (despite him falling off the face of the earth.) I am happy to push my second suspect. I really think we should be lynching either Wick or Pman today.

[Sotty7]

Arg! Oman, why do you vote Moriarty right after I unvote him?

[Sotty7]

Vote: pman

Moriarty can wait a day. The fact that Wick shot pman and he still lives is pretty telling for me.

[Sotty7]

I'm sorry guys I have been busy these last few days. Consider me V/LA till tomorrow, Thursday at the very latest.

[Sotty7]

Okay so I just ISO'ed Pman and I am thinking that Leaf is probably town. This post by Pman seems like a big slip to me.

pman - There are only three people on him right now. Why so nervous?

4

It's not like any of us would let a lynch happen on Page 4, and he's nowhere close to a lynch.

Let's hope not. Why the bandwagon then?

Could you and leaf be scum together?

No. Excuse me for opposing a bandwagon on an innocent townie.

The last comment feels very sincere to me and I think that Pman was trying to get some town cred by going against the early push on Leaf. This is further strengthened in my opinion by the fact Pman didn't have any scum leads at this point in the game.

Pman - who do you think is scum?

right now, no one strikes me as particularly scummy. It is only page 4, about 24 hours out of the RVS. But, if I had to lynch one person right now, it would be ConfidAnon. Something strikes me a little bit odd about how he attacked leaf for asking a question, and then saying we needed a bandwagon.

I have no idea how he could call Leaf an “innocent townie”

I think Leaf's partner is Moriarty aka Kitten4U. For one, he doesn't commit to any reads of Kitten until this post here:

After re-reading the whole thread,

Vote: Kitten4u

Contradiction, and when called out, her defense seemed more about survival than helping the town.

Before this he had simply answered questions she had sent his way and that was it and these interactions only took up two posts. Yet if you look at period in the game where he throws his vote on Kitten you can see her wagon had suddenly built from almost nothing. This vote here just screams of scum desperate to get on the bus before it leaves the station to me. It is the 5th vote on with little to no original reasoning for it.

This is further compounded by his equally as quick leap off the wagon as soon as it was possible.

Okkkkkk, my gut now pings town on Kit for some reason. Leaving vote on for now but I still think that a Budja wagon would be good.

oh she's town, but I'll keep my vote on her anyway, because there's no other wagon to hop on.

You have been acting too weird, and too scummy for too long.

Unvote: Kitten4u, Vote: Ellibereth

This also feeds into my theory that scum would not have pushed a wagon from Kitten4U over to Elli if both players were townies. I think Pman jumped on Elli taking Kitten away from lynch-1 with the hope that others would follow. Pman being new to MS wouldn't know that a VT claim at lynch-1 isn't and shouldn't be enough to derail a lynch. I think he saw strong players like Ythill and Thesp leaning away from Kitten and decided to leap himself.

Vote: Moriarty

The paranoia in me looks at CTD's post 533 and thinks that Ythill was killed because CTD basically agreed with him across the board. CTD hasn't been around much but when he does post it comes across very logical so I could just be over reacting there.

Fate's reaction to Leaf's vote on him looks pretty bad. He seems all ready to throw the towel in and if there is only one scum left this defeatist attitude could fit the bill. I would like to see a much more comprehensive case on Leaf over one quote plucked from Pman's ISO. Especially considering that I think Leaf is town. Feels very OMGUSy at this point in time.

Thesp is a tricky one for me. He has been on the confid/Budja/Fate wagon pretty much since the game started so the vote (and unvote) isn't so much of a surprise. He was also pushing Pman early on but wasn't actually on his lynching wagon. I will have to go back and read over his ISO a little more again but I am leaning ever so slightly town.

[Sotty7]

But you can build a case. You seemed to suggest that there was more to your Leaf vote that just that one quote you brought up. Show me what you are talking about and why you think that way.

Right now I think Leaf is probably town and you aren't convincing me to change that opinion.

[Sotty7]

Can we get a prod on CTD too please? He hasn't posted this day at all yet.

Fate, are you saying that Leaf is scummy because he isn't making a case against confid and Bujda as well as you? I'm not seeing your point.

[Sotty7]

With that in mind,

Vote: Fate

. Your interactions with pman were all odd, and I believe pman started the day on you as an attempt at distancing. Your explanation for the end of day 2 is bizarre, and your defensive of "Oh it can't have been a bus" sucks. In some ways, I think pman might have made a deliberately horrible claim in order to protect you, his partner.

What interactions in particular were odd to you?

Why do you think Fate needed protection yesterday? To me Fate might have been under some slight pressure but I would have been surprised if anyone else would have been lynched.

[Sotty7]

I have re-read the game and drawn my conclusions based on the Kitten/Pman interactions. I have been pushing Kitten and Pman for most of the game and I believe they are scum together.

Right now no one is showing me the case on Fate. It's just "take my word for it these interactions are scummy because I say so." If the wagon is just based on the one slip by one player I am even less than impressed.

Show me what you are talking about and maybe we can have a debate, but as of right now I think the Kitten slot is much scummier.

[Sotty7]

Yes, Leaf. Is that so unlikely?

Can you explain why?

CTD, what do you think of Leaf?

[Sotty7]

I'm waiting on the Moriarty replacement really. CTD does make a good case on Fate but I still believe the Kitten/Moriarty slot holds scum.

[Sotty7]

So you believe the Kitten townie claim 100%... Why?

[Sotty7]

Can we get some prods on Thesp and CTD. This is getting a little out of hand.

[Sotty7]

Well at this point I am willing to comprise with a Fate vote. I really didn't like his reaction to Leaf's vote and your case is strong. I was just hoping for more discussion but at this point I don't think that is going to happen.

[Sotty7]

I notice the only thing you have on me is my "Thesp" vote. And Sotty thinks this is a strong case?

Hmmmm Sotty might be scum trying to look hesitant on my lynch to set up a Leaf lynch tomorrow.

CTD provided an extensive case based on yours and your predecessors actions. Isn't this what you wanted Leaf to do? The case is strong when you compile everything together while your case on Leaf seems nothing more than reactionary.

Also, you do realize Leaf is my strongest town read right now? Because that last sentence is just ridiculous.

[Sotty7]

Reactionary to Pman flipping scum, yes.

When I say reactionary I mean to Leaf's vote. He came out at the very start of the day swinging for you with a vote. You come back with a FOS

It couldn't have been a bus. How can a mafia member bus a SK?

Please explain your reasoning better. Right now it seems as if you're trying to come up with reasons to deflect suspicion away from you:

FoS: Leafsnail

Which is followed up with a vote

right

after.

okay the suspicions of leafsnail are complete crap. Just letting everyone know. All he has done the entire thread is point out a rule that contradicts the basics of a game of mafia, and ask Ellibereth if there was a purpose for the jokes. Trying to be serious and hunt scum is now a scumtell? everyone on that bandwagon needs to think about it a little more.

Actually, did an ISO of Pman. Only time he ever mentions Leafsnail is when he's defending him. There are a few more posts like this.

Vote: Leafsnail

FOS: Moriarty

I liked Kitten's posts, but her replacement have been non-existant.

The time stamps between these posts is only 4 mins. Now I can't believe that you did an ISO of Leaf in that time and decided to vote. To me it feels like you realized the FOS was weak but couldn't take it back and so tacked a vote on Leaf. The vote and reasoning feels very rushed and hence reactionary to Leaf's vote on you.

What do you think of CTD, Sotty? Just because his case makes sense logically means that he is town?

My only issue with CTD right now is the big periods of time he goes missing. Just because his case is logically sound doesn't mean he is obvtown. Still I am not getting any ill vibes with how he is pushing on you today.

Don't rule out that Leaf could be scum. If you want to call him town, refute point by point my case against Leaf's buddying with Pman. You haven't commented on my case at all (goes for Sotty and Thesp as well)>

The thing about this is that you haven't made a point by point case based on Leaf's buddying. You quoted one thing and made a vote. I have called you to make an actual case and you just said you aren't the type of player that makes cases. Yet you want us to go though and refute it?

My comment on your case is that you have made no case. Simple.

===================================

I'm starting to worry about the mod as well now. We haven't had a vote count or update for a week, has anyone else seen him on site?

[Sotty7]

Yeah welcome to the game Dram. How is your read coming?

[Sotty7]

*High fives to Thesp and Pman*

I had fun in this game. Fate did kinda freak me out when he came in and basically nailed the scum team. Heh. Still I thought we played well and were pretty lucky to off the SK as quick as we did. The last night was filled with lots of second guessing but we rolled with the right choices in the end. As soon as the town was happy to settle on two scum members on that last day I was quite happy not to address that subject ever again

Thanks for Modding Darkstrike. I thought you did a good job, thumbs up from me.

[Sotty7]

My bad

[Sotty7]

Thanks for the scummy nom guys. It's my first ever.