Mini 905- Mafia in Sienna OVER

[Budja]

Just FYI, I have asked to be replaced but the mod seems to not have posted so yet.
(Sorry for the inconvenience. I just can't "get into" this game and that makes it a chore.)

[pman5595]

I don't see a problem with budja's hammer, personally. I don't view it as any different from the other votes.

What did you think of what he said when he placed his vote?

Still missing this answer.

whoops, must have missed it the first time.

Looking back at it, the things he said were not good. The worst thing was that he was not fully convinced. This puts him up on my scum list, but I still believe wick is scummier

[Thesp]

I'm liking a Budja/pman5595 pairing.

[pman5595]

I'm liking a Budja/pman5595 pairing.

any particular reason you feel this way?

[Thesp]

I'm liking a Budja/pman5595 pairing.

any particular reason you feel this way?

Of course!

[Wickedestjr]

This from the guy who made several mentions of bandwagoning as a scumtell and apologetically called Elli town for "non-contribution"? Perhaps you did believe it would gain you

attention

but, going by what you think is scummy, you obviously didn't think it would warrant

suspicion

.

I don't think the pman case was a calculated move anyway, so I'm not looking for optimal scum-play. I think the strategic unvote got you unexpected suspicion and then several vocal players started talking about gaining information from current wagons. They were not being specific about what they were looking for, so you were concerned about getting back on one of the wagons, but you also knew that doing nothing was going to look bad, so you picked a name and put up a case.

First of all, how would it be a good move for me to switch my vote as scum? It sure wouldn't be a good idea in terms of flying under the radar, because I was getting hardly any attention when I was voting Kitten.

Secondly, where did I say I thought Ellibereth was town for
non-contribution?

Generally? Nothing. In this case, however, I think it suggests you have inside information for three reasons. First, you suspected all three of them strongly at some point, voting Leaf and Kitten, and even going so far as calling Elli and Leaf buddies early in the day. I know that opinions can change but the reasons you give for clearing them in #289 don't seem like enough. Kitten, whom you had voted all the way to L-1, is cleared because of a large wagon and 1/2 post?

My very first suspicion in the game was Leaf because of a possible Leaf and Ellibereth connection. Sure I thought the points had merit, but 4 pages in the game, that wasn't a case I wasn't going to stick with forever unless nobody seemed scummier, or Leaf reacted strangely. However, the opposites of those two things occured. I got a new suspect (Kitten) and Leaf didn't react strangely to the accusation. It took him a day or two I think it was to convince me, but I eventually thought he was town based on his response. Another reason I voted him was to see how he would react so I could figure out if he was town or scum. I thought he was town and also thought Ellibereth was town based on his behavior later in the game. Kitten seemed scummier with her strange reasons for voting Leaf. I voted her for these reasons. She defended herself to my satisfaction. I have to say though that the day was cut short for me. I usually need about 20 pages at least to get a decent idea of who the scum were. That is why my suspects changed a lot day 1 and it is my town meta to do that. I can show you several games to prove it.

Secondly, your pman case, though visually long, doesn't really have much meat in it. It's fluffy. I don't see that as a problem by itself (it was only D1), but when combined with the strange town reads and the timing, it holds an internal contradiction: if that case was

really

enough to convince you pman is scum, then I don't see how you don't also suspect at least one of Leaf, Kitten, or Elli.

I don't think my case is fluffy. Also, I think the points I used against pman outweigh the points I used against the others. I voted Leaf for asking a question and then another question that answered the previous question. He said he was just using this as a follow-up question. I didn't think this was necessarily a smart idea, but I believed him. Inexperienced players can do strange things. I voted Kitten for voting Leaf for not taking a stance. This ended up turning into a semantics argument that was useless. It also turned out, she was just having trouble explaining her thinking. I believed her and thought that she was town afterward. I voted pman for contradicting himself and making untownlike descisions. There may be other points too, but those points alone are better than the points I used against Kitten and Leaf. And also, even if they weren't better, what does that matter? After they each defended themselves to my satisfaction, I had no points against them. Should I continue to vote for somebody I have no points against, or the person I do have points against?

Speaking of which, pman, if the rest of the points in my case are true, just say so. Until you actually defend against the rest of the points, I'm going to assume they are true and you are afraid to admit that.

Finally, the three players in question were acting scummy

toward each other

. Kitten had those weak yet aggressive attacks against Leaf and some questionable behavior towards Elli, Leaf was OMGUS tunnelling excessively on Kitten and had the flip-flop read on Elli, Elli had baseless attacks on the other two and rolefished kitten. My point here is that if a person with no inside information was to gain a solid town read on one of these players, I'd expect that person to at least be entertaining suspicion on the others. Instead, you boldly called all three town.

This is a bad point. Town attacking eachother is a common thing. It happens when scum are flying under the radar, which, in this case, they were.

No, actually he doesn't. Calling someone scum for being wrong on D1 is complete crap. Even the best players are wrong sometimes, especially in the early game. I've been mislynched by Thesp-town late game. The only reason I didn't call CTD out on this was because it didn't seem to be the heart of his accusation. What he actually said was that Thesp mislynched while agreeing with the lynchee, and I see that as a valid point. You have taken it in an entirely different direction. Just another log on the fire.

You are overreacting. I don't plan to vote Thesp for that, I am just saying it gives Thesp scum points in my mind. Chill out.

[Wickedestjr]

I am sorry but I won't be able to finish catching up. I swear I am not lurking. I have just been extremely busy lately. Check out my other game and you'll see I'm catching up in it too. Also, CTD brings up a good point regarding Thesp. He usually figures out some of the scum, but I don't think he's right about any of his suspects.

What games have you played with Thesp? CDT, same question to you to please.

I played with Thesp in Mafia Island which was a newbie game modded by Khelvaster, and I also played with him in Mafia at the Border which was also a newbie game modded by Khelvaster. I have also read large portions of Invitational 4 and Face to Face Mafia. Thesp happened to be in those.

[Leafsnail]

Yep. Wickedestjr is scum.

Vote: Wickedestjr

. I hate to let lurkers off the hook but... I guess he's gonna be replaced.

My very first suspicion in the game was Leaf because of a possible Leaf and Ellibereth connection. Sure I thought the points had merit, but 4 pages in the game, that wasn't a case I wasn't going to stick with forever unless nobody seemed scummier, or Leaf reacted strangely. However, the opposites of those two things occured. I got a new suspect (Kitten) and Leaf didn't react strangely to the accusation. It took him a day or two I think it was to convince me, but I eventually thought he was town based on his response.

I've already shown you that this isn't true. And you've ignored it. You voted Kitten because you thought she was scum and that made me town. And you continued to press me anyway. This segment is an outright lie.

Another reason I voted him was to see how he would react so I could figure out if he was town or scum. I thought he was town and also thought Ellibereth was town based on his behavior later in the game. Kitten seemed scummier with her strange reasons for voting Leaf. I voted her for these reasons. She defended herself to my satisfaction.

Where? And why did you chase her all the way to L-1?

I have to say though that the day was cut short for me. I usually need about 20 pages at least to get a decent idea of who the scum were. That is why my suspects changed a lot day 1 and it is my town meta to do that. I can show you several games to prove it.

Meta based defence is null - any decent player can manipulate their town meta, especially if they are the one to bring it up. What is scummy is that you're trying to use it as a shield.

[Sotty7]

I am sorry but I won't be able to finish catching up. I swear I am not lurking. I have just been extremely busy lately. Check out my other game and you'll see I'm catching up in it too. Also, CTD brings up a good point regarding Thesp. He usually figures out some of the scum, but I don't think he's right about any of his suspects.

What games have you played with Thesp? CDT, same question to you to please.

I played with Thesp in Mafia Island which was a newbie game modded by Khelvaster, and I also played with him in Mafia at the Border which was also a newbie game modded by Khelvaster. I have also read large portions of Invitational 4 and Face to Face Mafia. Thesp happened to be in those.

Well the point here is both you and CTD have put Thesp up on this high level were he looks scummy if he doesn't break the game right away. It is an impossible high standard even for the best scum hunter.

I have played with Thesp twice. One game he was scum and was pretty active but the game was bogged down by less than fun players. The second game he was town and pretty lurky until the end. I haven't seen ThespTown bust open a whole or part of scum team. So if you have any links to show this, I'd like to see.

[Darkstrike_11]

Vote Count as of post 432

Wickedestjr (3): pman5595, Ythill, Leafsnail
Moriarty147 (2): Sotty7, Oman
pman5595 (2): Wickedestjr, CrashTextDummie
Budja (1): Thesp
Oman (1): Moriarty147


Not Voting: Budja

With 10 Players, a majority of 6 is needed for a lynch. The deadline is 2pm, 11th of February 2010 (GMT).

I am searching high and low for a replacement. Aint no queue thread high enough, aint no private message low enough. ahem.

[Ythill]

Sorry, limited time today and I wasted it in GD. I'll try to get a post up later this evening.

[CrashTextDummie]

I'm still strapped for time, but was able to get some reading in.

Well the point here is both you and CTD have put Thesp up on this high level were he looks scummy if he doesn't break the game right away. It is an impossible high standard even for the best scum hunter.

I have played with Thesp twice. One game he was scum and was pretty active but the game was bogged down by less than fun players. The second game he was town and pretty lurky until the end. I haven't seen ThespTown bust open a whole or part of scum team. So if you have any links to show this, I'd like to see.

Several things about this:
1. I'm pretty sure I've played with Thesp more than twice (though I can't be bothered to check the exact number). The game I was specifically referring to that I was uncomfortably reminded of is Generic Western Mafia.
2. I don't expect Thesp or any other player to "break the game right away".
3. Thesp being on a town-lynch is not a major point against him in my view (though I do hold him to higher standards than others, whether he likes it or not), and I didn't intend for it to seem that way (he lynched town D1 in Face to Face Mafia, which is the kind of game you are looking for, as he otherwise busted 2/3 of the scum-team on D1 of that game and generally played a stellar scum-hunting game). It's the particularities of his vote and his general play that bothers me. It's not enough for me to pursue him today, but I wanted it on record.

---------

I've reviewed Ythill's case against Wick, and I think it has merit. So let's see where it goes.

unvote, vote: Wickedestjr

[Ythill]

People who are posting less than others are getting slides, which encourages lurking and will kill us if we let it. We don't seem to be approaching non-contribution as scummy, and that's bad.

I'm usually okay with a D2 lurker hunt if things are slow in general and I was about to offer my vote for that but, now that Wick's getting some pressure, I'm going to stay where I'm at. Maybe be more aggressive with the prod requests?

First of all, how would it be a good move for me to switch my vote as scum?

My current theory is you didn't want to bus your buddy on D1. Or it could be that you played up the hammer-shyness against the wrong player list and then couldn't get back on without hammering her yourself. I don't know your actual motivations, but it doesn't seem like you had honest townie motivations, which is all that really matters.

where did I say I thought Ellibereth was town for
non-contribution?

#289: "His non-contribution is something I've seen town do more often than scum." Stop making me look stuff up.

Town attacking eachother is a common thing.

Strawman. The only attacks I listed were qualified as scummy attacks, and I mentioned other stuff like role-fishing and a flip-flop read.

A little of what you said actually makes sense. Not enough to clear you in my eyes, but at least you know I'm reading with an open mind. Since people obviously understand my vote and some have joined me, I'm going to simmer this argument down a little and let others have the floor. I'd also be interested in an updated summary of your reads when you have a minute.

That's four votes on the wagon, Oman's will make it L-1. Hint hint.

[pman5595]

I wasn't going to respond to this, because it is the same stuff that was in his other case repeated. But he "blackmailed" me

Continuing on...

Point 5:

EBWOP: sorry here's what I was trying to submit

Gut should never be the only reason to think someone is mafia. If you cannot find any actual evidence that they are mafia, you should not target them

Bullshit

Vote: Ellibereth

You obviously are still joking around. once you stop my vote comes off of you.

If you aren't joking around... then my vote should really stay on you.

I'm not joking.

then tell me your reasoning of the leafsnail vote. Please include something other than "gut".

pman says if Ellibereth wasn't joking then his vote should really stay on him. However, when Ellibereth says he wasn't joking, pman seems to give Ellibereth an opening to escape from the vote by making the above post.

nope. the whole reason for my vote was because he was voting leaf with no reasoning. If he was joking, I would unvote, if he explained his reasons, I would be able to make a decision. But he felt reasoning was not needed, hence the vote.

Point 6:

Pman, I'M NOT JOKING.
And the original reason for your vote in 102 was because you thought I was joking, correct?

No, it was because you were (and are) acting stupidly. If the acting stupid was a joke, I would unvote when you stop. But you say the acting stupid is not a joke. That is an even better reason to vote for you. Give me good reasons that you are voting for leafsnail, or unvote if you cannot find any.

No, you did say you were voting Ellibereth for joking in these quotes:

You obviously are still joking around. once you stop my vote comes off of you.

If I could vote for you twice I would.

WE ARE OUT OF THE JOKING PERIOD

Stop contradicting yourself scum.

I don't see where I contradicted myself. I will be able to respond beter if you pointed out where.

Point 7:

Pman, I'M NOT JOKING.
And the original reason for your vote in 102 was because you thought I was joking, correct?

No, it was because you were (and are) acting stupidly. If the acting stupid was a joke, I would unvote when you stop. But you say the acting stupid is not a joke. That is an even better reason to vote for you. Give me good reasons that you are voting for leafsnail, or unvote if you cannot find any.

What happened to voting only when you thought people were scum?

your unexplained targeting of leaf gives me extremely scummy vibes.

pman pulls this point out of nowhere to show that he was voting for Elli because he thought he was scum. However, like I pointed out in my previous post, pman was willing to unvote Elli if she stopped JOKING, so obviously it wasn't a vote because he thought Elli was scum.

I passed off his scummy lack of reasoning as a joke, but when he insisted it wasn't a joke, it became scummy.

Point 8:

Ok, so stupid = scummy according to you right now, correct?

it depends on how they are acting stupidly

if they are acting stupidly by voting for someone with no reasoning, yes.

Voting with no reasoning suddenly indicates stupidity now, so conveniently enough, he can no pretend as if it was a part of his case.

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize voting without reasoning was a good thing. My mistake.

Point 9:

If nobody could tell, I was being extremely sarcastic with that vote and the comments afterward, and they were meant to show Elli how annoying what he is doing is. unvote: Wickedestjr

Oh! So now Elli's voting without reason is annoying! I thought it was stupid or scummy! I must've forgotten that annoying=stupid. Silly me. Also, despite Elli's joking continuing on, you don't return your vote to him. Interesting.

voting without reason is annoying. I apologize for not using the exact same adjective in every post.

Almost all of Wickestjr's case comes from my spat with Elli, which in my opinion became removed from the game and turned into each of us trying to prove each other's way of playing bad. All of his points are basically the same thing. It is just is fluffy waffling.

[Darkstrike_11]

Fate replaces Budja

[Thesp]

I have played with Thesp twice. One game he was scum and was pretty active but the game was bogged down by less than fun players. The second game he was town and pretty lurky until the end. I haven't seen ThespTown bust open a whole or part of scum team. So if you have any links to show this, I'd like to see.

My activity will be dependent on my availability. And I have had a few stellar games where I knocked things out of the park. And I've had a few duds in there as well.

I wasn't going to respond to this, because it is the same stuff that was in his other case repeated. But he "blackmailed" me

How concerned are you about the purported "blackmail" of someone you think is scum?

[Sotty7]

Thanks for the links CTD. I will have a little look probably tomorrow. I am strapped for time today.

I've reviewed Ythill's case against Wick, and I think it has merit. So let's see where it goes.

What parts of the case in particular have merit to you?

[Wickedestjr]

Obscure wording FTW. Either you were scumhunting with these questions/statements or you were not.

If you were, then they were indicitive of your suspicions and they were too wide-ranging (and dropped too quickly) to be real.

If you were not, why so much fluff?

I'm afraid I don't understand what you are saying here. Specifically, the bolded portion is the part I don't understand.

1: Exactly my point: questions that don't lead to conclusions. 2: Posts that make you seem invested in the game but actually don't lead anywhere because, 3: as scum, you lack townie curiosity.

1: Why do all questions have to lead to conclusions?

2: There isn't really anyway I can defend against this.

3: How do I lack townie curiosity?

Ugh. I hate running into this. Actually, the last time I ran into someone using this, scum was using it against me (and it was a game CTD was in).

Was the scum attacking you for this correct when they said you hadn't found any scum?

[Fate]

/confirm

I'm replacement #3 for this role I see, I'll get right on to reading the thread.

[Fate]

That was a painful read.

Current wagon:
Wicked's unvote of Kitten D1 seemed like townie changing their mind, it is a bit of a stretch to reason his actions as scummy. I can't see why scum of any experience level would "buy" a WOT defense and unvote that close to hammer. More likely they would disagree with the points and push for the lynch.

CTD's blatant wagon switching by 'agreeing with Ythill" is noted. What if Ythill is scum?

FOS: CTD

(doesn't look like we'll get a wagon on him). Thesp also seems to be cruising by and not doing much to attract attention.

I've played with Leaf before, and I know how to handle him if the time comes.

Something no one has brought up but I would like to talk about: Choice of NK? Why MME? From the read through he didn't stand out at all. I would wager we have experienced scum getting a free kill who couldn't be linked to anyone.

The following players have the most scumpoints in my notebook as I read through:
CTD
Pman
Sotty
Thesp

My read in this game is that the scum are sitting back and letting town lynch themselves. I like a pman wagon right now, especially because of his

Pman: "I'd vote wicked but someone will say OMGUS"
Ythill: "If you have reasons it isn't OMGUS... town won't hate you for it"
Pman: Town won't? OK then [insert fluffy reasons here]

Vote: Pman

[Ythill]

@ Fate:

If your read is that scum are sitting back and letting townies vote themselves, why are you voting someone who is on the lead wagon? Also, please elaborate on what you said about Leaf.

Mental note. Fate's entrance kinda creeps me out. He understated the Wick case and jumped right on the only opposing wagon that is not himself.

I'm afraid I don't understand what you are saying here.

Think real hard.

1: Why do all questions have to lead to conclusions?

2: There isn't really anyway I can defend against this.

3: How do I lack townie curiosity?

1: Why do you keep strawmanning me?

2: The truth is like that.

3: See above. Way to throw away your recently gained credibility points, BTW.

[Leafsnail]

It's 3am for me, and I'm mainly taking notes to use tomorrow, but

I've played with Leaf before, and I know how to handle him if the time comes.

Huh? This is my first game on mafiascum...

[Fate]

It's 3am for me, and I'm mainly taking notes to use tomorrow, but

I've played with Leaf before, and I know how to handle him if the time comes.

Huh? This is my first game on mafiascum...

Indeed it is. Good thing it isn't your first game of mafia ever. That said I'm honored to be in your first game of mafiascum.

@Ythill: My read isn't that scum are sitting back and doing nothing. It is just that they are being very "unproductive." Not making enough posts to stand out, not taking any firm stances to draw attention. They can still make votes.

He understated the Wick case and jumped right on the only opposing wagon that is not himself.

IIoA noted. I wasn't going to jump on my own bandwagon, and I don't think wicked is scum. If the votals are right, Pman's wagon is only 2 votes right now, but it was the best option out of all those I suspected.

[pman5595]

Those votals are outdated. Wicked has 4 votes I believe.

Mod: Can we have new ones?

Anyway. This is probably over-speculation, but the role most likely to be replaced iis probably a vanilla townie. As it is the hardest role to "get in to" IMO. Add that to my mostly town read on budja and I don't think Fate is scum. Wickedestjr, however, is the person that needs to be looked at for fluff and waffling.

[Thesp]

Ugh. I hate running into this. Actually, the last time I ran into someone using this, scum was using it against me (and it was a game CTD was in).

Was the scum attacking you for this correct when they said you hadn't found any scum?

They were correct in that I hadn't found scum, they were incorrect in that I was town in that game.

Anyway. This is probably over-speculation, but the role most likely to be replaced iis probably a vanilla townie. As it is the hardest role to "get in to" IMO.

I strongly disagree. Also, I missed your answer to this:

I wasn't going to respond to this, because it is the same stuff that was in his other case repeated. But he "blackmailed" me

How concerned are you about the purported "blackmail" of someone you think is scum?