Mini 905- Mafia in Sienna OVER

[Darkstrike_11]

Vote Count as of post 599

Fate (1) Leafsnail
Leafsnail (1) Fate
Moriarty147 (1) Sotty7

Not Voting: Moriarty147, Thesp, CrashTextDummie

With 6 players, a majority of 4 is needed to lynch Deadline is 12noon Sunday 14th March GMT

I am looking to replace moriarty147. Liking the posting from everyone else.

[Leafsnail]

Nothing to say about the links Budja and ConfidAnon supposedly made to Pman?

Come to think of it... you're saying I'm scum for not highlighting all the ways in which you think the people you've replaced have been scummy?

[Fate]

Yes. All the players before me have had the same role, no?
Shouldn't their actions be a fundamental part of your case?

But they aren't. All you've said is "Budja has acted scummy as well."

[Leafsnail]

Defending yourself merely because someone has not made points against the people you have replaced is extremely poor. Neither ConfidAnon or Budja were shining beacons of towniness. The main reason I'm making a case against you is that YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO RESPOND TO IT EVEN IF YOU AREN'T.

[Fate]

I'm not defending myself.

I'm attacking you for not making points against them.

[Leafsnail]

Lame OMGUS is lame.

[Sotty7]

Can we get a prod on CTD too please? He hasn't posted this day at all yet.

Fate, are you saying that Leaf is scummy because he isn't making a case against confid and Bujda as well as you? I'm not seeing your point.

[Sotty7]

With that in mind,

Vote: Fate

. Your interactions with pman were all odd, and I believe pman started the day on you as an attempt at distancing. Your explanation for the end of day 2 is bizarre, and your defensive of "Oh it can't have been a bus" sucks. In some ways, I think pman might have made a deliberately horrible claim in order to protect you, his partner.

What interactions in particular were odd to you?

Why do you think Fate needed protection yesterday? To me Fate might have been under some slight pressure but I would have been surprised if anyone else would have been lynched.

[CrashTextDummie]

Sorry for oversleeping again.

I'm not a big fan of Sotty7's vote. I don't follow her logic when it comes to the perceived connection between Pman and Kitten4U. His vote and unvote of her was definitely shady (it was the primary reason I got on his case at the beginning of D2), but it doesn't necessarily indicate Kitten4U-scum. Particularly since it happened after Kitten claimed vanilla, I can just as easily see scum-Pman jumping to another juicy target in a scenario where Kitten is town.

Now I've head my fair share of hairy eyeballs on Kitten myself, but I don't like Sotty's angle here. Particularly since there's far stronger ties between Pman and Fate, stretched over

all

the players occupying the latters role (there's weird interaction between Pman and all of CA, Budja and Fate), I don't get why she's pushing so hard for a connection that is weak at best while only looking at Fate in the context of his interactions with Leaf.

I agree with whoever first discussed it (Leaf, I think), that Pman probably only has one buddy based on what looks like a genuine slip from him. But irregardless of whether this assumption is right or wrong, Sotty7's play today looks bad to me. Either she's trying to deflect from her scum-buddy Fate or she's already working on the next lynch since Fate is clearly the way to go today.

vote: Fate

[Sotty7]

I have re-read the game and drawn my conclusions based on the Kitten/Pman interactions. I have been pushing Kitten and Pman for most of the game and I believe they are scum together.

Right now no one is showing me the case on Fate. It's just "take my word for it these interactions are scummy because I say so." If the wagon is just based on the one slip by one player I am even less than impressed.

Show me what you are talking about and maybe we can have a debate, but as of right now I think the Kitten slot is much scummier.

[CrashTextDummie]

ConfidAnon:

Early attacks on Pman, followed by linking another player to him as soon as applicable (and on weak reasoning to boot). Smells of early distancing, especially since he pushed for Leaf exclusively from then on out.

----------------------

Budja:
Weak defense of Pman, coupled with not taking a stance on Pman/Ellie. Notable for being one of the very few things he commented on upon replacing in.

More weak defense of Pman. Notable because he's playing him the newb-card for no discernable reason.

Another weak defense of Pman. Considering how short his stay way in this game, he commented quite a lot on him,which stands in stark contrast to his complete absence of a stance on the majority of the players.

------------------

Fate:

Votes Pman as soon as he replaces in, but abandons his vote shortly after in favor of Thesp, because the latter voted Pman, Fate's top suspect (!). Makes zero sense, and smells of deflection. This was followed by wild flip-flopping between Wicked and Pman.

First and only explanation for this behavior: "Surely I wasn't bussing!" He doesn't have a pro-town explanation, only an anti-scum explanation. This is a clear indication of busing to me.

--------------------

This is just from the PoV of Fate's slot. I do think I took some notes on Pman indication a connection between the two, but I've already spent more time on this than I had planned, and I generally give more weight to connection-tells from the unknown-aligned player in these situations.

[Fate]

Fate, are you saying that Leaf is scummy because he isn't making a case against confid and Bujda as well as you? I'm not seeing your point.

That is one of the reasons, yes. Leafsnail's "case" on me is my interaction with Pman. It should follow logically that my predecessors also had some sort of "odd" interaction with him, but he hasn't pointed those out. It also seems like he is unwilling to.

The other reason is his and Pman's mutual defense of each other D1, having reads on eachother as "town." It seems to me like Pman, the lesser experienced scum, made the slip first and Leafsnail wrote a line "being wary of Pman scum trying to coud my judgement." But then he goes on to say he thinks Pman is town!

I agree with whoever first discussed it (Leaf, I think), that Pman probably only has one buddy based on what looks like a genuine slip from him. But irregardless of whether this assumption is right or wrong, Sotty7's play today looks bad to me. Either she's trying to deflect from her scum-buddy Fate or she's already working on the next lynch since Fate is clearly the way to go today.

Really don't like this post from CTD. First he says he thinks Pman has only one buddy, and that I'm, "clearly the way to go today" (based on mine and my predecessor's interactions with Pman, which he also doesn't reference any particular post) but he also setus up suspicion on Sotty for tomorrow after I flip town?

FoS: CTD

@CTD: Since you'll probably just agree with Leaf's proposed PBPA of my interactions with Pman, care to show us where you saw Budja/CA interact with him as a likely scumbuddy well?

[Fate]

SIMULPOST: Nice timing, heh.

Early attacks on Pman

<- A RVS vote is NOT an early attack, this connection is null.

followed by linking another player

<- Wow. CA noticed the connection between Leaf and Pman, as well. Well thanks for adding to my case on Leaf. (I think you're suggesting here that CA set up a connection between Leaf and Pman so that later he could bus Pman and mislynch Leaf, really?)

pman - There are only three people on him right now. Why so nervous?

It's not like any of us would let a lynch happen on Page 4, and he's nowhere close to a lynch.

Could you and leaf be scum together?

Hahah! I wish CA was still reading this. CA, I promise that I voted Leaf based on only my ISOs of Leaf and Pman. This is hilarious we both see it.

Weak defense of Pman, coupled with not taking a stance on Pman/Ellie. Notable for being one of the very few things he commented on upon replacing in.

<-A completely different person than CA, and he has a completely different read of Pman. Understandable? I think so.

More weak defense of Pman.

<- See above, Budja has him read a newb town (he was half right).

p-man's arguments were flawed.
I didn't like Elli's later actions and thought him the best choice.

^this is the weak defense you're referring to? Pman's arguments are flawed is a defense.

Votes Pman as soon as he replaces in, but abandons his vote shortly after in favor of Thesp, because the latter voted Pman, Fate's top suspect (!). Makes zero sense, and smells of deflection. This was followed by wild flip-flopping between Wicked and Pman.

First and only explanation for this behavior: "Surely I wasn't bussing!" He doesn't have a pro-town explanation, only an anti-scum explanation. This is a clear indication of busing to me.

I read this whole game with a notebook. Adding + or - for each person based on the scummy/towniness of their posts. Pman had the most "-"s so I voted him immediately.

My vote of Thesp was valid:

Why didn't you put Wicked at L-1? Especially if you want to push for claims? As I see it right now, the only reason you voted pman was because he had more votes on him.

Unvote
Vote: Thesp

I haven't liked your posts all game, and this seals it for me.

Look at the REASONS behind a vote, not just the static "oh he unvoted Pman and then voted Thesp." Thesp switched from me to Pman, saying the deadline was closing in, but he didn't put Wicked at L-1. Very odd.

I still stand behind my "why would I buss with a Wicked lynch was more likely?" If you think it is WIFOM, that's fine. Hopefully you'll have more to your case than that.

[Fate]

EDWOP

Pman's arguments are flawed is a defense.

Should read with a ??? instead of a .

[CrashTextDummie]

A RVS vote is NOT an early attack, this connection is null.

CA noticed the connection between Leaf and Pman, as well.

So a RVS vote is not an early attack, but "noticing a connection" in the RVS is completely valid. Thank you for playing. Not to mention that his vote on Pman certainly wasn't just "a RVS vote".

I think you're suggesting here that CA set up a connection between Leaf and Pman so that later he could bus Pman and mislynch Leaf, really?

I am suggesting that linking town players to a scumpartner is a common scum-strategy, as it opens the door for a variety of plays later down the road, including, but not limited to:
- going after the town player after a successful bus
- easing off the scumpartner after a successful lynch of the town player
- distancing from a scumpartner without outright bussing

The reasons why I think this was the case here (as opposed to CA simply reading one of the guys wrongly or even CA catching two scum):
1. There was no real evidence for a connection
2. the progression of his argument was : "Pman is scum" -> "Leaf is scum for defending him" -> "lynch Leaf", which logically doesn't hold any water since his suspicion of Leaf hinged on Pman being scum. He should have gone after Pman if he actually believed in what he said.
3. I find it far more likely that this was a scum-ploy as opposed to a CA seriously believing he had caught two scum this early in the game (which is compounded by the fact that he focused almost exclusively on Leaf after he had established the "connection")

A completely different person than CA, and he has a completely different read of Pman. Understandable? I think so.

Entirely beside the point. The scummy thing is not that his opinion was different than CA's, it's that he chose to specifically comment on Pman/Ellie almost to the exclusion of everything else, and yet didn't even take a clear stance on the issue (defending both players weakly).

See above, Budja has him read a newb town (he was half right).

Thanks for quoting it again. I consider passing off scum as "newb town" a strong scumtell.

this is the weak defense you're referring to? Pman's arguments are flawed is a defense.

A bit more subtle than the rest, which doesn't make it any better. In this quote, he's justifying Pman being on the wagon while making excuses for him.

Look at the REASONS behind a vote, not just the static "oh he unvoted Pman and then voted Thesp." Thesp switched from me to Pman, saying the deadline was closing in, but he didn't put Wicked at L-1. Very odd.

Thesp switched to your top-suspect instead of to the guy you didn't suspect. Where exactly did you see a scummy motive in this?

Hopefully you'll have more to your case than that.

Thanks for your concern, but I think I have plenty.

[Leafsnail]

What interactions in particular were odd to you?

Random changing between wick and pman as well as his early vote/ unvote of him. It's almost like he couldn't decide whether he needed to bus his partner or not.

As for protecting Fate... who knows? Perhaps Fate has a better role, or maybe pman had just given up.

And, apart from the reaction, Fate's behaviour since then should've made it clear he was scum. He claimed VT for

no reason

(possibly in the hope of getting me to claim as well?), seemed to give up (with one vote on him?) and then started posting a case that amounted to little more than OMGUS.

And now Fate's simply flatly denying any connection his predecessor's had with pman. No real arguments, just "This could be town because..." Well, no, it couldn't. Repeatedly prodding at the same player when there are other people there is a connection.

[Thesp]

You still haven't answered the question: Why would I get

off

the SK and

on

to my partner, Pman?

See, that's part of the problem with things like this - once you're clearly self-aware of such a move, it's less useful as an indication of being pro-town.

In any case, I remember when you were all like, "Hey guys, I'm just now in the game and I'm voting for pman5595" then I was all like "It's getting closer to a deadline, let's get a real wagon on pman5595 so we have a wagon to compete with wickedestjr's wagon" and then you were all like "Screw that, I'm now voting for Thesp". Good times.

Thesp comes in and quickvotes...hmmm

Would you care to state what you think of that, or are you content to throw out vague "hmmm"s?

This also feeds into my theory that scum would not have pushed a wagon from Kitten4U over to Elli if both players were townies. I think Pman jumped on Elli taking Kitten away from lynch-1 with the hope that others would follow. Pman being new to MS wouldn't know that a VT claim at lynch-1 isn't and shouldn't be enough to derail a lynch. I think he saw strong players like Ythill and Thesp leaning away from Kitten and decided to leap himself.

This feels like a bit of a reach - I don't follow the same conclusions here. (Looks like CTD beats me to this here.)

I would vote Fate, but I want to hear from Moriarty147/newplayer - seeing a playerslot go for two days without posting is a bit much for me.

[Fate]

In any case, I remember when you were all like, "Hey guys, I'm just now in the game and I'm voting for pman5595" then I was all like "It's getting closer to a deadline, let's get a real wagon on pman5595 so we have a wagon to compete with wickedestjr's wagon" and then you were all like "Screw that, I'm now voting for Thesp". Good times.

Nice misrep. I can do it to:

I was all like, "Hey guys I just read the game I'm voting for Pman"


you were all like, "Hey I want wicked to claim but I'm NOT going to put him at L-1, I'll vote Pman instead."

I was all like, "WTF is up wit dat? *Votes Thesp*"

[Leafsnail]

So voting your top suspicion made him more suspicious than your top suspicion?

[Fate]

Yes, Leaf. Is that so unlikely?

[Thesp]

you were all like, "Hey I want wicked to claim but I'm NOT going to put him at L-1, I'll vote Pman instead."

I'm sorry, I forgot where I advocated for a wickedestjr claim when he wasn't at L-1. Can you quote that post for me?

[Sotty7]

Yes, Leaf. Is that so unlikely?

Can you explain why?

CTD, what do you think of Leaf?

[Leafsnail]

Yes, Leaf. Is that so unlikely?

Well, it's not at all unlikely if you're scum and don't care who gets lynched.

[Thesp]

Yes, Leaf. Is that so unlikely?

Well, it's not at all unlikely if you're scum and don't care who gets lynched.

It's even more likely if you're scum and want the top vote-getter to get lynched, even though you wanted it to look like you wanted your initial vote-getter lynched.

[Fate]

Can you explain why?

Because I had just replaced in. Pman was my #1 based off notes. Thesp became a target based off my interactions when I started playing. So I voted him to see other's thoughts and his reaction.

Which is irrelevant now, because Pman flipped scum and now Leaf is my #1.