Open 201 v2.0 ~ F&I Mafia ~ Game Over

[Lacey]

/confirm

[Lacey]

vote:kmd4390

For claiming to vote other than RVS.

[Lacey]

Though "discouraging serious discussion" is a bit of an exaggeration. It's more trying to get us back into RVS when somebody tries to get things serious soon.

Why would you want us back in RVS? We need to get people talking, and the best way to do that is get out of RVS as soon as we can!

@farside, I have no read on kmcd, I just want him to explain his comment so we can get a dialogue rolling.

[Lacey]

I've played a lot of games with stupid scum, and some of the time people write them off as town because "Why would scum do something stupid like that??"

In my experience, scum occasionally do stupid things, but more often than not they're far cleverer than town gives them credit.

Usually town gets sidetracked on an "obvscum" player who turns out to be an anti-town townie.

So I tend to agree with farside on this one.

[Lacey]

I almost want to point to the game lacey and I had where we had a very anti-town player that turned out to be town.
I'm not saying impossible in fact most players I know to trip up early are newbies. However Kmd has been playing for a long time and I look at him as clever scum. He's one I keep an eye on till I'm convinced he's town more often then not.

This is actually a great topic farside. Let's open it for general discussion.

How do we sort anti-town townies from scum? What are the tells smart scum tend to drop?

[Lacey]

This game I'm not going to say too much of what I expect but scum is looking for scum too. There are 2 groups so they will have a better chance to blend in then most other games.

Seems in some ways, however, that the odds are more in favor of town in this sort of situation, which may help to some degree, especially with scum fighting amongst themselves.

I just did a regression on the setup, and even not factoring in the doctor, the setup seems slightly in favor of town, which is a good thing

[Lacey]

@Lacey
1. Actually, taken from Battle Mage's theory, RVS is just as useful as discussion. RVS frustrates scum because it's less likely to result in tunneling fights. You shouldn't discredit the RVS.

But what does it gain town?

[Lacey]

vote:kmd4390

For claiming to vote other than RVS.

dear lacey,

could you explain this please?
i'm not so concerned as to the actual vote as i am to the actual reason

are you voting him because he's voting for another reason than randomly?

It was mainly RVS on my part as well, but yes. He claims to be voting for a real reason (I think), when there has been nothing but confirms by the time of his vote.

What's the real reason? How did he come to his conclusion so quickly? I think he ought to share it with the rest of us.

[Lacey]

Lacey: How is it RVS if there is a reason behind the vote that happened in game?

All RVS has weak reasoning behind it, because we're bad at real random votes. I'm calling my vote RVS because I don't think there is evidence kmcd is scum. I find his claim to vote on facts strange, but it's not particularly scummy. I'm probably just misinterpreting him.

[Lacey]

Ok folks, we need to get the discussion rolling here. So far no one wants to talk, and we should all be talking far, far more than we are now.

farside, you seem unusually quiet. Any reason you're staying on the edges in this game? Normally you're pretty supportive of getting the discussion rolling. Why not this time?

[Lacey]

Right now if I had to point out anything that struck me as odd. DTM vote and reasoning on Fongoid is rediculous. How is anyone supposed to respond to a vote that they are told is serious without anything else.

Agree in general, though I will say Fongoid is sounding a bit too "Me too" at this point.

Lacey's comment saying the vote was RVS. Feels like backpeddling the issue.
It's like she doesn't want to be attached to voting seriously for kmd and I dont' get why. Something very off about it.

If I didn't want to be attached to it, I would have buried it and ignored it, and probably unvoted.

I'm happy with my vote where it is now, I just don't want people to think I'm convinced I've got a case on kmd or anything. I will admit my worries about kmd are increasing as he last posted Sunday and hasn't posted since.

[Lacey]

I assumed that when the Mod said you'd read your PM, but not confirmed, you wanted to post in your QT. I buy your explanation though.

Fair enough.

This is actually a great topic farside. Let's open it for general discussion.

How do we sort anti-town townies from scum? What are the tells smart scum tend to drop?

How do these questions help us find scum?

Vote Lacey

How do they not? If we're looking for scum tells and sorting them from just anti-town tells, a good discussion is definitely going to help us find scum. Farside and I just played in a game that was literally ruined by anti-town players. One even claimed scum despite being a VT, so this is fresh in both of our minds.

Actually, it favors scum because scum can't kill the other scum groups.

I had missed that part, I'll rerun the regression.

@Lacey
1. Actually, taken from Battle Mage's theory, RVS is just as useful as discussion. RVS frustrates scum because it's less likely to result in tunneling fights. You shouldn't discredit the RVS.

Do you have a link to this theory? I'd like to read it and improve my game.

2. Depending on night actions, the town could also get screwed :<. (Recalls the last game lol)

Can you elaborate? How do night actions link to RVS? Or am I misinterpreting the context?

Um, you can't hide behind calling that a random vote. You voted for a real reason, call it what it is. A serious vote.

I'm not trying to hide behind a random vote. I'm just saying, I don't have a case on you yet. Especially with your explanation.

[Lacey]

Lacey: Now is your vote based on lurking from kmd? There is spring who all she did was confirm.
So what is the difference between the 2?

vote: lacey

This is the second time I see she is trying to distance herself from her vote. It's very much a vote that is sitting on the fence.

Yes, really. By calling attention to my vote and adding additional reasons for why I am happy with my vote where it is, I am "distancing" myself from my vote. Really.

unvote

Because kmcd has posted, and his reasoning is sound as to why his vote was not RVS.

vote: farside

Because farside's reasoning is based in pure fiction.

[Lacey]

No, you don't have a case in my opinion, but your vote was based on a serious point. That's not a random vote.

That's your opinion. Maybe we vote differently. I would only classify a vote by me "serious" if I believed I had a decent case on someone. I keep casefiles on all players in a game, and I had all of one post from you that could have been:

A) Actually RVS which I misread
B) Later justified

If you hadn't posted today, I would have called my vote serious, but as it was my motivation was 50% RVS, and 50% pressure. Call it what you like, I don't call that serious. Tomorrow, I would have become more serious, but you posted today, and your reasoning is sound enough for me this early in the game.

[Lacey]

vote: farside

Because farside's reasoning is based in pure fiction.

Your OMGUS is showing...

It's not OMGUS, or I would have voted the first person who voted me. Farside is saying I was "distancing myself" from a vote with a statement I was using to claim more ownership of the vote.

And it's coming after I questioned farside's lack of participation as being abnormal. I think farside's nervous.

As for me, I've got no problem with votes on me. Town outnumber scum 2:1, meaning we're 66% likely to lynch town today, might as well be me. Town will learn a lot based on who is on the bandwagon.

[Lacey]

Ok, damn. I just did the regression with the assumption that fire and ice can't kill each other, and darn. It does favor scum.

How does endgaming work in this setup, as it's not clear to me by the rules. What happens if we end up with 1 town, 1 fire, 1 ice, or simply 1 town, 1 fire or 1 ice?

My numbers give a mean town loss by Day 5 given random voting, and Mafia to outnumber town in the mean case by Day 4. Which changes the game entirely.

[Lacey]

Here is my analysis of this setup, if anyone is interested:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key= ... utput=html

[Lacey]

Nobody is interested because it doesn't help us to find scum.

Well speak for yourself, some of us want to know the odds, as well as how many wrong guesses we get.

[Lacey]

@Lacy
1. You would gain reactions. Town has more incentive to equally pressure all players. Scum dislike the pressure. RVS, with pressure, and discussion = reads on everyone. Then you go from there. There is a meta link with:

Zachtown and Day/Night mafia found in my Wiki. Specifically look at the player: Battle Mage.

It's not the only way to play the game, but yeah this is saved for theory discussion

Thanks, I'll read it. When I've finished would you be interested in talking about it (either online or after the game in PM)?

3. The night actions were referencing your "town advantage" post, so yes you took it in the wrong context. KMD sums it nicely, town is at a disadvantage depending on how night actions occur. Also know that cross kills can't happen so town would need to correctly lynch.

Yeah I missed that initially, and it changes the expected value immensely. Still better than a C9 setup, but no longer a setup which favors town.

In the last game town was locked in reverse PD

What is reverse PD?

Lastly use quote="Name" because it took me 5 minutes to realize you were replying to me and KMD in the same post.

Ah sorry, I think I got confused as well and thought I was just replying to KMD.

I'm sorry but in that case you outlined, that was an extreme face palm moment. That town who claimed scum deserves to be lynched. There has to be a line where you draw the line and say that: this person has been anti-town to the same point as being scummy.

We did lynch them, that was the problem. Town was lylo, and a VT claimed scum. Game over. The scum even said they didn't enjoy the game, everyone left feeling cheated.

Yes there are subtle disctinctions between anti-town/scummy, no you shouldn't be paranoid about someone's scumminess = someone being anti-town. There are a lot of clues to how you can make that distinction, but you shouldn't shy away from that.

Well in the last game I got it very wrong, so I'm looking to improve my play in that respect. I'm not confident I can tell the difference anymore.

[Lacey]

You are voting Farside because you don't like the way she voted you. OMGUS. Also, I agree with her point.

I'm voting farside because farside's logic makes no sense to me. You voted me too, yet I'm no longer voting you.

A defeatist attitude this early? You have TWO VOTES.

It's not defeatest at all. I don't have to be alive to win. I'm simply reiterating, my vote on farside is anything but OMGUS, because I don't care at all if I have votes on me.

What I do care about is farside claiming that I was distancing myself from my vote, when I was doing the opposite, and farside's relative lack of activity this game, as a departure from what I have seen in the past.

Everyone, Lacey is scum. If I am wrong, please lynch me tomorrow. Thank you for your time. Let's finish this day and go to night now.

So ready to end the day?

I'm cool with this trade. Lynch me today and kmd tomorrow. If kmd is so ready to end the day now when we've got players we haven't even heard from, then he is changing my mind on how scummy he looks. If he is town, he's going to damage the way town plays.

[Lacey]

Lacey any response to the 2 quotes I stated looks like distancing of a vote. Or in other words I see you fence sitting on that vote you have on kmd.

I thought I had already explained:

#1) I wasn't distancing myself, by making the point about his activity I was actually saying my vote is growing more serious as time goes on.

#2) If you are pro-town, you're way off base on my motivation for my original vote. You're barking up the wrong tree entirely.

Having said all that, I'm waffling between you and kmd as my top scum target. Your putting way to much focus on a case made out of pixie dust, and your activity (I feel) *has* been on the low side.

Meanwhile kmd is all ready to end the day now before replacements have even weighed in. This is very anti-town, and if he keeps this strategy I say we take him on his offer of a trade. Lynch me today, and when I flip town, lynch him tomorrow.

[Lacey]

Lacey: Looking at this post how do I not make sense?

These 2 quotes read to me as distancing from a vote:

I'm happy with my vote where it is now, I just don't want people to think I'm convinced I've got a case on kmd or anything.

All RVS has weak reasoning behind it, because we're bad at real random votes. I'm calling my vote RVS because I don't think there is evidence kmcd is scum. I find his claim to vote on facts strange, but it's not particularly scummy. I'm probably just misinterpreting him.

It's the I'm voting but I don't want people to think too much about it. Like she is too concerned by how her vote looks. Nice OMGUS.

#1) I said I was happy with my vote. How do you see that as distancing myself from the vote?

#2) I've stated I find what he said strange, but also stated my reasoning. Check me in my previous games. I almost always state my second guesses and what I believe are short comings in my votes and cases, unless I feel I have an iron clad case.

If I didn't, I'd be misleading town. Before kmd responded, or took far too long to respond, I wasn't ready for an out of control bandwagon to be manipulated by scum.

[Lacey]

1) You mentioned kmd not posting since Sunday but again why ignore Spring who did nothing but confirm?

Because, if I were to vote on ever little bit that seemed scummy to me, I'd be voting everyone at once. kmd had two strikes, his odd first post, and a delay since previously posting.

2) If you were pro-town you would have a better explananation for your fence stand and caring about what people think. Only scum care what people think.

What? This doesn't make any sense. If I were pro-town I would care what people think, but only scum care what people think? I don't get what you are saying here at all.

Lets see you voted for kmd first based on something that happened in game and stated that it was an RVS.
You called him out as a lurker almost ignoring SL who hasn't posted.

Then he responded, and satisfied me on the question I had posed him.

Then you started fabricating a case from pixie dust. Then I voted you for what I see as you not liking the pressure I was putting on you with my questions about my activity, combined with your fabricated case.

Look you don't like the reasons I voted for kmd initially, and evidently you don't like that my vote was more to get the ball rolling more than anything else. That's cool. But don't act like this is a serious case. Because it isn't.

[Lacey]

Cool, let's do it.

Deal.

Ok town. Vote me. When I flip town, be sure we nail kmd for the scum he is.

Vote: kmd4390

Reasons to vote me:

#1) When I flip town, kmd goes down which is at the very least of benefit to town since he wants to end the day so badly.

#2) If people do think I've been acting scummy, it isn't on purpose, and I don't want to distract a later lynch.

Let's do this.

[Lacey]

EBWOP

unvote

Vote: kmd4390

You really didn't need to unvote...

[Lacey]

Hmm. A town response.

Unvote, Vote DTMaster

No, no, no, no!

He is backing down to easy. Why? Were you hoping I was Fire Mafia and you were Ice or something? No backing down now.

Let's do this trade.

Me first, then kmd!

[Lacey]

*sigh* Play to your win condition. If I see you aren't, you will be force-replaced.

This is my win condition.

kmd4390 only offered the trade because he knows full well there are two mafia factions. So I believe he did think I was mafia, just not mafia on his side.

This is a trade town can afford because We're 66.7% likely to lynch town anyway.

My belief:

kmd4390 was counting on me to flip the opposite mafia alignment of him letting him get off scott free, despite the fact that he is also mafia, making him seem as an obvious town and strengthening the position of his faction.

We can do this trade either way the rest of town wants. But kmd's sudden back down on the offer means he blinked. I say we either lynch first him, then me, or the other way around.

[Lacey]

What about other players in the game? You haven't mentioned DTMaster or anyone else really so far

Null reads. DTMaster has offered some helpful links and info, but that's not enough to be pro-town. Everyone else just hasn't given me enough content to process yet.

Why would town look for affromation on their vote of another player?

I didn't.

when I show 2 quotes in which you clearly are fence sitting it's not a fabrication.

Except when they aren't clearly fence sitting.

[Lacey]

This is my win condition.

IC hat on:

Your win condition is either mafia or scum. Asking for your own lynch no matter your alignment is against your win condition.

There are 8 town, and 4 scum.

Day 1, we are 66.7% likely to lynch town.

Trading myself for scum helps me attain my win condition. I win even if I am dead.

I'm not asking for my lynch. I'm asking to trade for kmd. He backed down from a deal he thought he could win, I am now convinced he is scum.

[Lacey]

Why would town look for affromation on their vote of another player?

I didn't.

I'm happy with my vote where it is now,

I just don't want people to think I'm convinced I've got a case on kmd or anything

. I will admit my worries about kmd are increasing as he last posted Sunday and hasn't posted since.

Look you don't agree with my reasoning. I don't agree with yours. We can rehash this distractingly over the next five pages, or we can scum hunt. You do what you want to, I'll be doing the latter.

Since the mod doesn't like the idea of trading, and claims this is against my win condition, here is my proposal.

Kmd4390 wanted to trade and then backed down. Sounds like he has some explaining to do. I'm working right now on the assumption that he hoped I was opposite mafia from him, and backed down when it became clear I was town. I think Kmd needs to confess, or explain himself.

[Lacey]

@Lacey:
1)How sure are you of Kmd being scum?

Hard to say. Personally I view the exchange he and I had as a case of honest signaling. I believe he was under the impression we were opposite mafia factions. Just my gut read of the situation right now. But it's a strong one.

2)If you are serious about your trade, then please vote yourself.

Please see posts by CSL and farside in this thread.

[Lacey]

I stated my reasoning and show quotes and placed in bold where you are backing off of what you stated. So unless you can explain how you are not fence-sitting in those 2 quotes are why you are saying you are not looking for afformation from players when I put in bold that you did all your doing is hoping to distract me to go after someone else.
Now there is more then one scum and untill you answer my questions and instead of bypassing my points your stuck with my vote on you.

I'm not changing my story. I have said all I can on this subject without repeating myself. Consider this topic dropped. If it means you will be voting me until eternity, then so be it. I will not respond to this topic again in the forum.

[Lacey]

How was my participation abnormal compared to last came looking at the first few days?

It has picked up lately. You were just very active in the last game I was in, and hadn't been as of yet.

For the rest, see PS 111. I'm serious.

[Lacey]

Lacey, you say that I honestly suspected you as scum when making the deal. Why am I scum who suspected you rather than town who suspected you?

Because you wanted to end the day before a replacement had even been found. That is pretty scummy. I think you are mafia for that reason, and because you neglected to remind town that if I had flipped mafia, it doesn't mean you aren't mafia too. Seems an odd thing to suggest given two mafia factions, as if someone flipping mafia would somehow exonerate the other?

[Lacey]

Lacey's warning has been retracted. the situation did not require a warning as it did not break any rules, however, mentioning communication with the mod is poor form.

My apologies for mentioning it. I thought it important to do so, however since I was stepping back from a very firm position all of a sudden. I wanted to make it clear I would still be on that position if allowed by the rules.

Thank you for your hard work modding this game however. I appreciate all of the work you are doing, and I am sure my fellow players do too.

[Lacey]

In in other news I'm offically on ignore from Lacey. Cool I broke a player and can call it a day.

Oh sweetie, no, no. Sorry. I didn't mean that. I'm not ignoring you, or mad at you or anything. I just feel any additional discussion along the lines you were pursuing will yield nothing new.

I have literally said all I can on the topic, and I don't want to distract the thread or derail it further, which I think is bad for town.

If that means you have to keep voting me, well that is what it means. I can't say anything new, so I obviously won't change your mind on the subject. Why keep barking up the wrong tree together? We'll both just end up overposting and flooding the thread.

Maybe this is clearer: I have no additional explanations or information to share on my initial vote of kmd.

Does that help? I'm really sorry if I made you think I was ignoring you. Ok?

[Lacey]

Lacey, I didn't actually expect the day to end so soon. It was my way of showing confidence in my read, applying pressure on you, and getting reactions.

So you say. But that's only true if town didn't take you up on your suggestion. I accept that trade offers can be used for honest signaling, but only if you expect them to be accepted. I may be misinterpreting you, but my feeling is what you are saying here is your offer to trade was an empty threat.

Also, that's a poor point. Why, as town, would I feel the need to remind the rest of the town that "Oh, hey, maybe I'm scum".

You based your position on the fact that my flipping scum would have exonerated you. It wouldn't have. It seems like a strange thing to forget in this very unique setup.

[Lacey]

Also lacey you should read my post 114.

I thought I did. I'm sorry, maybe I'm just being dense but I have no idea what I'm supposed to notice.

Warning to all: I can be an airhead sometimes. Please be patient with me, I do happen to be blonde.

[Lacey]

Lacey, I highly doubt the 5 more votes necessary for a lynch were likely to pile on just because I claimed to have caught scum for sure. If they did, we'd have scum for sure just by looking at all of those votes. There's really no downside.

I wasn't actually going to come out and self-vote Day 2, just so you know. Call it an empty threat if you want, hell maybe it was. I was more after your reaction than actually seeing a deal take place. Your reaction was one that scum would never make. Scum, especially newer scum, tend to worry too much about upsetting their scumbuddy to take up a deal like that. What you did was definitely a town reaction. I consider you near-confirmed town.

---------------

Actually, I was basically saying I was so confident in the read that I'd be willing to be lynched if I was wrong. That doesn't say at all that if I'm right, I'm confirmed town. Actually, I said nothing at all about what should happen if I was right.

Maybe I was reading things into what you said. Let me reread your original posts.

[Lacey]

Also lacey you should read my post 114.

I thought I did. I'm sorry, maybe I'm just being dense but I have no idea what I'm supposed to notice.

Warning to all: I can be an airhead sometimes. Please be patient with me, I do happen to be blonde.

It's why I stated you were ignoring me.
Well that and the we will disagree and your shutting down the convo.

Sigh

I don't want this to be like last game so for now I'm dropping this but IGYMOU

I'm really confused now.

Can we reopen this and go slowly with no assumptions. I'm feeling overwhelmed and lost.

[Lacey]

Ok here is your original offer.

Everyone, Lacey is scum. If I am wrong, please lynch me tomorrow. Thank you for your time. Let's finish this day and go to night now.

Lacey, I highly doubt the 5 more votes necessary for a lynch were likely to pile on just because I claimed to have caught scum for sure. If they did, we'd have scum for sure just by looking at all of those votes. There's really no downside.

Still seems off, trying to finish the day so soon. I still don't like that part.

I wasn't actually going to come out and self-vote Day 2, just so you know. Call it an empty threat if you want, hell maybe it was.

Actually, I was basically saying I was so confident in the read that I'd be willing to be lynched if I was wrong. That doesn't say at all that if I'm right, I'm confirmed town. Actually, I said nothing at all about what should happen if I was right.

I'm not sure there is much of a difference, but ok. Your story checks out. I still don't like it, because I think that would have been the reaction.

I need to think about this.

[Lacey]

Lacey:
This quote:

In in other news I'm offically on ignore from Lacey. Cool I broke a player and can call it a day.

Was in regards to these 3 post

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 65#2158565
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 00#2158600

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 18#2158618

Doesn't my first post explain it? I'm really confused.

[Lacey]

Since when does: Not understanding someone = that someone is scummy?

Well the question is whether I am misunderstanding farside, or she is using specious logic. For the moment I think we just aren't understanding each other at all.

2.@Lacey quote about wagons. Hold on, Lacey just AtEd and said a self wagon would generate more information 4 pages in. Now take that quote and put it with Lacey's meta on scummy-townies, and it seems odd that Lacey would suggest that.

I'm confused as to what you are referring to, What quote about wagons/self wagon? Can you reference Post Subject ISO for me?

Yikes, Lacey seems to be 50/50 on KMD, and if town, she’s basically giving a 75% chance of the first 2 lynches being town...

No, I'm just pretty confident that a townie wouldn't try to end the day so fast. I consider the offer from kmd to be a scum tell. Had he offered such a trade well into the day, it would be different. But so soon? When some players haven't posted at all?

That's too scummy to ignore.

And as stated, I think Lacey is being quite hypocritical to accuse KMD of trying to end the day, when that’s exactly what she tried to agree to.

Well I disagree here. If he had taken me up on my offer, as I demanded he did, and I flipped scum, what would that have gained the mafia? Nothing.

But having someone demand to end the day and flipping town has a better than average chance (in my opinion) of catching us a mafia member. I'm still suspicious that kmd was hoping to exploit the unique double mafia situation to secure a town read for himself.

@Lacey
1. Um, conditional lynches aren't helpful to the town. It makes you tunnel, and then leads to conformational bias. Think about it, at 4 pages in do you seriously have a strong enough lead to lynch KMD?

If he had been willing to follow through yes. Sometimes you have to be aggressive and make a gamble. Now, no. I'm not sure what his backing down means. I think it could be scummy, but his explanation isn't irrational.

2. I'm reminded of my first newbie game somewhat right now.

Care to elaborate?

So you’ve got no problems being voted on, yet you already offer yourself as today’s lynch just because there is a 66% chance you would be town? Jeez.

I have no idea where you get this from. I think you misread the post.

There is a 66.6% chance we will lynch town today. Those are just the odds. I'm town, and in the situation I was pretty confident I could trade 1:1 for scum. I'm willing to trade my position for a scum position (caveat for the mod: Yes I know it has been deemed against the rules for this game, so I am not offering, I am talking strategy). I consider such an exchange to be in town's best interest, so I have no qualms with being lynched.

More anti-town attitude. You can’t know 100% that just because we lynch you that means KMD is auto-scum. You both could be town

Absolutely true. But in a game of limited information, you always have to make a gamble.

It's not like I could make such a gamble on my own. I would need to find six other people who were willing to take the gamble with me. After all, town must vote on who to lynch. I don't have the power to lynch by fiat. I don't see how this is anti-town at all.

I get just as annoyed at people asking me the same question over and over again in different ways expecting a different answer. So although this reeks of Gayle-esque anti-town play, I would do the same. Perhaps a quick elaboration would be nice though?

Quick summary: I voted my first vote largely because of RVS, but partially because the comment by kmd was a strange one to make. My confidence in the second half of the vote was low due to kmd having posted a grand total of 1 post by that point.

To call such a vote serious is, in my opinion, disingenious. So I refuse to call such a vote serious. The vote became slightly more serious due to kmd's perceived long absence, but all of these questions/concerns were eventually addressed.

========================================

Quick note, I've tried to address direct queries. I'll try and do a more thorough read tonight, but I'm going to be quickly V/LA till Tuesday due to a family emergency. I'll still be logging in, but expect 1-2 posts max per day.

[Lacey]

Guys, DT is obviously the only correct lynch today.

I don't understand the case on DT at all. So far he has seemed pretty town to me. He has dropped some helpful hints to newer players, and I haven't seen any clearly scummy behavior. Can someone help me understand the case on him?

If anything Kmd's strange plays coupled with his assertion here with no useful analysis to back it up seems far scummier, but for the fact that many others seem convinced of a DT lynch.

[Lacey]

See, this is what I mean about moving around the issue. What you say is true regarding KMD, but it doesn't address my quoted problem with you accusing KMD of trying to end the day early. You also tried to end the day early, to turn around and accuse KMD of doing it is hypocritical.

KMD tried to end the day early, I just offered that we make him put his money where his mouth is and take the bet he proposed. I don't see at all how you think this is hypocritical.

Would you have suggested the best response to someone trying to do this would have been appeasement? What would you have done? Let Kmd slink off into the shadows and not bring his activity to the fullest light?

[Lacey]

c.I am inclined to believe that Lacey is town and KMD is scum, given the completely different reactions he placed compared to last time

What last time are you referring to here?

[Lacey]

@ Lacey
During the original Open 201,

I couldn't find a comparable situation. Could you cite a PS?

[Lacey]

Again!! Why do you keep doing this?! KMD offered to end the day early, you agreed, you BOTH tried to end the day early, hence it is hypocritical to accuse him of it. You're avoiding the accusation, again, I don't find the fact that you agreed to the exchange scummy, it's the fact that you're hypocritically accusing KMD.

I'm not avoiding the accusation. I engaged it, now you're avoiding my question when I responded.

Answer my question

. How would you have had me respond? I am going to assert, my response was reasonable. You're setting up a false choice with a bogus charge of hypocrisy.

[Lacey]

Here is my logic, broken down into little bite size chunks for you:

Thanks this is actually helpful.

• 1: KMD and Lacey both tried to end the day early
  2: Lacey accused KMD of being scummy for trying to end the day early
  3:The hypocritical accusation from Lacey is what I find scummy

Except your ordering is wrong.

• 1: KMD tries to end the day early. Suggests a swap. If I flip town, he offers himself in exchange.
  2: I note the problem with his offer. If he truly believes I am mafia, it doesn't mean he has lynched his team mate due to the unique setup.
  3: I call him on his offer, and decide to boldly force him to, in the words of the movie Zombieland, "Nut up or shut up", and show us his hand.
  4: This doesn't change the situation at all. It's not like he offered me the trade, he offered town the trade. Regardless of my response, he was still pushing for the day to end early.

If I had offered to trade and self voted, I would agree it could be seen as hypocritical. But my action in no way furthered a goal of an early day end by lynching me, as I voted KMD, not myself.

[Lacey]

Ok, well my ordering isn't wrong, you've just broken #1 down into more pieces, and I agree with your version of events for the most part, but it's not those events that I think is scummy. My #1 was just a gross simplification of events, because I didn't find those events scummy.

KMD tried to end the day early, you agreed to it, and I feel that in agreeing, you also tried to end the day early. You agreed to what you've stated was an attempt to end the day early, I don't see how you can say that you didn't try and further that aim.

I disagree with your reasoning, but I think we'll have to just agree to disagree on this.

[Lacey]

I don't understand the case on Spring. Is it just lynching a lurker?

[Lacey]

It's more of active lurking. He's been here since the start and hasn't contributed much or anything when he posted

Not defending Spring, but this seems more like a policy lynch than a case built lynch and I don't like it for that reason. We have four scum to find. Lynching a lurker as opposed to a scummy active player doesn't seem like the best bet to me.

[Lacey]

I guess we never have to ask you for reasons again

This is why I am still voting Kmd, among other reasons.

[Lacey]

farside

Quick question for you. Can you fill the rest of us in on how and when you think it is appropriate to vote?

Others are also welcome to answer this question if they would like.

[Lacey]

farside

Quick question for you. Can you fill the rest of us in on how and when you think it is appropriate to vote?

Why would I answer somthing that gives scum pointers on how to look more town?

I'm asking how and when

you

feel it is appropriate for

you

to vote.

I'm curious because your vote and focus have shifted a lot and I've noticed you grasping at some pretty thin cases to vote and FoS folks.

Now I will admit, so far I haven't seen much of a real case on anyone so it is possible that this is really just you changing your opinion. But I'd like to hear you rationalize your voting pattern thus far.

[Lacey]

My reads on the current players:

DTM: Town. He has consistently voted with reason, scum hunted, and pursued an active discussion. His helpful attitude towards myself and other players when asking for scum hunting tips, or help understanding cases strikes as extremely town. I don't see how scum could benefit from giving good scum hunting advice.

farside: Slightly scummy, seems to be voting erratically and joining any bandwagon that pops up. I may be tunneling here though, so I'm not willing to "bet the farm" on this fact.

fongoid: Lurker, impossible to say much other than that.

Gheb: slightly scummy. Almost entirely based on PS 10 (ISO), where he says he is worried about

people who haven't been very vocal in this discussion

Gheb hasn't been to vocal by that point either. Seems a bit of an active lurker.

============================================
(combining some separated reads of the same slot)

goro: Nothing useful yet. Active/Actual lurking.

yellowbunny: so far seems enthusiastic and willing to scum hunt. Need more posts to feel confident on any read.

============================================

jacobsavage: town. Similar to DTM, lots of reasoning, lots of transparency. Seems to be playing model townie.

kmd: No clue what so ever. I waffle on whether kmd is town or scum. Don't like trying to end the day early, or his sudden flip to declaring me town. Lack of reasoning is spotty, sometimes he makes a good case, sometimes he declares one by fiat. So I'm having trouble reading in general. Can't tell if this is honest scum hunting, or a ploy. Was leaning scum, but I'm beginning to think more town.

Sando: Town. Seems to be honestly scum hunting more than anyone else on the forum right now. Acts aggressively in hunting, seems concerned with getting a good read and putting real pressure on folks.

Spring: Lurker. Mostly inactively, but with occasional parroting. Could be lazy town, or scum.

TQO: Not sure. Putting some fair pressure on folks, but spending a lot of time posting how she always seems scummy.

TheLonging: Slightly scummy, complains about others for not posting rationale about votes, but does an awful lot of vote jumping without forming cases. Has done a fair share of active lurking.

[Lacey]

Grasping at straws? You still don't look shiney to me would you really want another argument?

More content can't hurt. Like I said, I'm not going to completely fault you here as I can understand moving your vote. But you do seem very defensive about it. A lot of AtE in that last post of yours too...

[Lacey]

BW vote seriously?
I was the second person to vote on you, I was the third vote on DTMaster and I was the second vote on Spring. So how am I hopping on bw votes exactly?

So you admit to jumping on bandwagons once you seem them forming?

Did you ever answer why you thought I was different from last game as far as my posting was going?

In the last game we played, you were much more like DTM or Jacob seem this game. It's hard to explain entirely, but I'll give it a shot. In the last game, when you posted, it was much more like you've done here with your "mod hat" on. Well reasoned, calm, and the voice of reason and consensus.

Your posts feel very different in character this game. Much more erratic and caustic, much more randomly aggressive, followed by strange passive periods.

[Lacey]

Grasping at straws? You still don't look shiney to me would you really want another argument?

More content can't hurt. Like I said, I'm not going to completely fault you here as I can understand moving your vote. But you do seem very defensive about it. A lot of AtE in that last post of yours too...

The post where I ask you how I'm bw vote hoping? The one your not answering? That post.

Pfft

I'm just asking a question. I feel it's odd that instead of responding with a straight answer, you respond with AtE, and basically refuse to answer.

Farside you seem to get touchy and jumpy anytime the spotlight is turned on you, and you've avoided giving straight answers several times. My vote is staying on kmd for the moment, but I feel your play is odd.

[Lacey]

BW vote seriously?
I was the second person to vote on you, I was the third vote on DTMaster and I was the second vote on Spring.

So how am I hopping on bw votes exactly

?

So you admit to jumping on bandwagons once you seem them forming?

Reading in bold is tech. This question answer a question with a question is scummy.
Do you see me asking how it's bw voting hopping? And no I just looked to see when I was voting just now. I had no idea at the time who voted for who at the time.

You're the one answering a question with a question farside.

I think your votes appear to be bandwagon hopping as you have jumped onto the ones which are getting a lot of thread traffic. You're claiming you have no idea at the time who voted for

whom

, but it's easy to claim without giving evidence.

It is quite possible you are doing more than hopping to the latest wagon. I'm just looking to understand your reasoning. I think town would benefit from hearing it.

[Lacey]

A lot of AtE in that last post of yours too...

Where is the AtE in Farsides post exactly?

Maybe AtE isn't the best way of saying it. Let me make my point more clearly and explicitly, and you can tell me the correct term:

Grasping at straws? You still don't look shiney to me would you really want another argument?

Instead of answering my question, Farside instead tried to turn it around into a threat. What I read this as, is a threat "Back of now, or I'm going to go after you". This isn't a valid response. It's trying to scare me into backing down when:

1) A case against me would be welcome, as it would involve some serious scum hunting.
2) It tries to avoid answering my question.

I was thinking AtE is the right term as it seems to be trying to evoke an emotion (fear) instead of responding. Maybe this isn't the correct term.

[Lacey]

I stated why I voted for

whom

I did just because your not reading the game is no reason to ignore me.

Hmmm, personal attacks, how nice. This is a game. I am reading, and I'm not ignoring you. I don't feel this is called for.

I'm going to go do things more constructive until you've changed your attitude. I don't need this.

[Lacey]

Tell me what your case is then Lacey? Because all I see is you complaining about my votes which I explained. You called it BW hopping which it clearly is not.

I was thinking AtE is the right term as it seems to be trying to evoke an emotion (fear) instead of responding. Maybe this isn't the correct term.

This is not me dodging a question.

I'm not voting for you farside. I don't have a case yet. But you are building one for me with your reactions. I'm still voting Kmd, yet you're as jumpy as a grasshopper in April.

@Sando: The threat seems a scum tell to me regardless of previous accusations. Town doesn't threaten scum to secure silence. They scum hunt and post cases. A threat is anti-town. If Farside believes another look at me is necessary, the pro-town thing to do is just begin investigating or call for such an investigation, not threaten one if I keep digging on her.

==================

And in general. I'm off for today. Farside has clearly put the grumpy pants on for a while, and the last thing I want to do is entertain her and the Drama Llama. I feel the attitude she is displaying is unhelpful, and I refuse to be its target today.

[Lacey]

Mod

Please replace me out. I have no desire to play in a game in which players resort to personal attacks and out of game baiting.