Open 201 v2.0 ~ F&I Mafia ~ Game Over

[DTMaster]

@Lacy
1. You would gain reactions. Town has more incentive to equally pressure all players. Scum dislike the pressure. RVS, with pressure, and discussion = reads on everyone. Then you go from there. There is a meta link with:

Zachtown and Day/Night mafia found in my Wiki. Specifically look at the player: Battle Mage.

It's not the only way to play the game, but yeah this is saved for theory discussion

2. You got ninjaed by KMD in your 57 lol.

3. The night actions were referencing your "town advantage" post, so yes you took it in the wrong context. KMD sums it nicely, town is at a disadvantage depending on how night actions occur. Also know that cross kills can't happen so town would need to correctly lynch.

In the last game town was locked in reverse PD and needed to lynch correctly with Firescum to win. Also Firescum and Icescum would need to hit the same townie to block a night kill because ice scum knew the identity of ice scum (see the mod error 201)

Lastly use quote="Name" because it took me 5 minutes to realize you were replying to me and KMD in the same post.

4.

How do they not? If we're looking for scum tells and sorting them from just anti-town tells, a good discussion is definitely going to help us find scum. Farside and I just played in a game that was literally ruined by anti-town players. One even claimed scum despite being a VT, so this is fresh in both of our minds.

I'm sorry but in that case you outlined, that was an extreme face palm moment. That town who claimed scum deserves to be lynched. There has to be a line where you draw the line and say that: this person has been anti-town to the same point as being scummy.

Yes there are subtle disctinctions between anti-town/scummy, no you shouldn't be paranoid about someone's scumminess = someone being anti-town. There are a lot of clues to how you can make that distinction, but you shouldn't shy away from that.

5. There is information from any lynch. There is WIFOM from any lynch. They invented Vote Count Analysis for that reason. They also invented post count analysis to cross check the VC analysis.

65, 66, 69 are stating the obvious, though your lack of knowledge in the setup and the transition from

Town advantage -> Correct Setup Information -> Reruning the odds of victory

reads as town trying to understand the setup.

@Gorohonda
Any reason you voted me for my post 44?

@Foingold
Probably because I felt that it was sarcasm because

, as you outlined, you didn't even post yet

. This is now reinforced with his recent post (but you didn't post yet so you couldn't have read it. Given in context of the argument/ yada yada, everything is valid)

@KMD
Why are you calling me scum-DTM, yet you do not question/pressure me. What is it about my post that you find scummy?

@Farside
With a question? But true, it's early game.

Unvote

Vote JacobSavage

Because you didn't post anything of thought given the KMD/Fangoid dynamic already addressed at the start of the game.

[Lacey]

@Lacy
1. You would gain reactions. Town has more incentive to equally pressure all players. Scum dislike the pressure. RVS, with pressure, and discussion = reads on everyone. Then you go from there. There is a meta link with:

Zachtown and Day/Night mafia found in my Wiki. Specifically look at the player: Battle Mage.

It's not the only way to play the game, but yeah this is saved for theory discussion

Thanks, I'll read it. When I've finished would you be interested in talking about it (either online or after the game in PM)?

3. The night actions were referencing your "town advantage" post, so yes you took it in the wrong context. KMD sums it nicely, town is at a disadvantage depending on how night actions occur. Also know that cross kills can't happen so town would need to correctly lynch.

Yeah I missed that initially, and it changes the expected value immensely. Still better than a C9 setup, but no longer a setup which favors town.

In the last game town was locked in reverse PD

What is reverse PD?

Lastly use quote="Name" because it took me 5 minutes to realize you were replying to me and KMD in the same post.

Ah sorry, I think I got confused as well and thought I was just replying to KMD.

I'm sorry but in that case you outlined, that was an extreme face palm moment. That town who claimed scum deserves to be lynched. There has to be a line where you draw the line and say that: this person has been anti-town to the same point as being scummy.

We did lynch them, that was the problem. Town was lylo, and a VT claimed scum. Game over. The scum even said they didn't enjoy the game, everyone left feeling cheated.

Yes there are subtle disctinctions between anti-town/scummy, no you shouldn't be paranoid about someone's scumminess = someone being anti-town. There are a lot of clues to how you can make that distinction, but you shouldn't shy away from that.

Well in the last game I got it very wrong, so I'm looking to improve my play in that respect. I'm not confident I can tell the difference anymore.

[Kmd4390]

50% RVS, and 50% pressure.

I've said this to scum in other games before, but these don't exist. It's one or the other. Most times when I see this, it's scum trying to justify a weak vote by calling it RVS.

If I were a dayvig, I'd be shooting you now.

It's not OMGUS, or I would have voted the first person who voted me. Farside is saying I was "distancing myself" from a vote with a statement I was using to claim more ownership of the vote.

You are voting Farside because you don't like the way she voted you. OMGUS. Also, I agree with her point.

And it's coming after I questioned farside's lack of participation as being abnormal. I think farside's nervous.

I'm not seeing this at all.

As for me, I've got no problem with votes on me. Town outnumber scum 2:1, meaning we're 66% likely to lynch town today, might as well be me. Town will learn a lot based on who is on the bandwagon.

A defeatist attitude this early? You have TWO VOTES.

They invented Vote Count Analysis for that reason.

---------------

DT, 75, Lacey is scummier so I'm willing to wait before I come after you.

---------------

Everyone, Lacey is scum. If I am wrong, please lynch me tomorrow. Thank you for your time. Let's finish this day and go to night now.

[farside22]

Lacey is also saying I'm more quiet then last game.
Here is last game

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13494

My post so far are about on par plus with more people it's better to have people talk and expand on their thoughts in a game like this vs smaller game.

Lacey any response to the 2 quotes I stated looks like distancing of a vote. Or in other words I see you fence sitting on that vote you have on kmd.

[farside22]

@Farside
With a question? But true, it's early game.

What is this comment in regards too?

[Lacey]

You are voting Farside because you don't like the way she voted you. OMGUS. Also, I agree with her point.

I'm voting farside because farside's logic makes no sense to me. You voted me too, yet I'm no longer voting you.

A defeatist attitude this early? You have TWO VOTES.

It's not defeatest at all. I don't have to be alive to win. I'm simply reiterating, my vote on farside is anything but OMGUS, because I don't care at all if I have votes on me.

What I do care about is farside claiming that I was distancing myself from my vote, when I was doing the opposite, and farside's relative lack of activity this game, as a departure from what I have seen in the past.

Everyone, Lacey is scum. If I am wrong, please lynch me tomorrow. Thank you for your time. Let's finish this day and go to night now.

So ready to end the day?

I'm cool with this trade. Lynch me today and kmd tomorrow. If kmd is so ready to end the day now when we've got players we haven't even heard from, then he is changing my mind on how scummy he looks. If he is town, he's going to damage the way town plays.

[CSL]

Flavor

The pointing fingers go everywhere. Lights from different podiums flicker on and off rapidly, as more students came to watch the proceedings, each cheering for their friends, hoping they were loyal students, and not infiltrators. Meanwhile, Sanhora gets paged everywhere, but to no avail. Looks like someone else will have to take that silent podium.

The Fun Times votecount

kmd4390 (L-6) Fongoid
Fongoid (L-7)
farside22 (L-6) Lacey
Sanhora (L-7)
The Quintastic One (L-7)
Gheb (L-7)
springlullaby (L-6) Gheb
DTMaster (L-6) GoroHonda
GoroHonda (L-7)
Lacey (L-5) kmd4390, farside22
TheLonging (L-6) JacobSavage
JacobSavage (L-6) DTMaster

Not voting: Everyone else

With 12 alive, 7 will lynch

Still fishing for a replacement for Sanhora.

[Lacey]

Lacey any response to the 2 quotes I stated looks like distancing of a vote. Or in other words I see you fence sitting on that vote you have on kmd.

I thought I had already explained:

#1) I wasn't distancing myself, by making the point about his activity I was actually saying my vote is growing more serious as time goes on.

#2) If you are pro-town, you're way off base on my motivation for my original vote. You're barking up the wrong tree entirely.

Having said all that, I'm waffling between you and kmd as my top scum target. Your putting way to much focus on a case made out of pixie dust, and your activity (I feel) *has* been on the low side.

Meanwhile kmd is all ready to end the day now before replacements have even weighed in. This is very anti-town, and if he keeps this strategy I say we take him on his offer of a trade. Lynch me today, and when I flip town, lynch him tomorrow.

[farside22]

Lacey: Looking at this post how do I not make sense?

These 2 quotes read to me as distancing from a vote:

I'm happy with my vote where it is now, I just don't want people to think I'm convinced I've got a case on kmd or anything.

All RVS has weak reasoning behind it, because we're bad at real random votes. I'm calling my vote RVS because I don't think there is evidence kmcd is scum. I find his claim to vote on facts strange, but it's not particularly scummy. I'm probably just misinterpreting him.

It's the I'm voting but I don't want people to think too much about it. Like she is too concerned by how her vote looks. Nice OMGUS.

@kmd post 77: Why are you trying to rush the day?

[Lacey]

Lacey: Looking at this post how do I not make sense?

These 2 quotes read to me as distancing from a vote:

I'm happy with my vote where it is now, I just don't want people to think I'm convinced I've got a case on kmd or anything.

All RVS has weak reasoning behind it, because we're bad at real random votes. I'm calling my vote RVS because I don't think there is evidence kmcd is scum. I find his claim to vote on facts strange, but it's not particularly scummy. I'm probably just misinterpreting him.

It's the I'm voting but I don't want people to think too much about it. Like she is too concerned by how her vote looks. Nice OMGUS.

#1) I said I was happy with my vote. How do you see that as distancing myself from the vote?

#2) I've stated I find what he said strange, but also stated my reasoning. Check me in my previous games. I almost always state my second guesses and what I believe are short comings in my votes and cases, unless I feel I have an iron clad case.

If I didn't, I'd be misleading town. Before kmd responded, or took far too long to respond, I wasn't ready for an out of control bandwagon to be manipulated by scum.

[farside22]

Lacey any response to the 2 quotes I stated looks like distancing of a vote. Or in other words I see you fence sitting on that vote you have on kmd.

I thought I had already explained:

#1) I wasn't distancing myself, by making the point about his activity I was actually saying my vote is growing more serious as time goes on.

#2) If you are pro-town, you're way off base on my motivation for my original vote. You're barking up the wrong tree entirely.

Having said all that, I'm waffling between you and kmd as my top scum target. Your putting way to much focus on a case made out of pixie dust, and your activity (I feel) *has* been on the low side.

Meanwhile kmd is all ready to end the day now before replacements have even weighed in. This is very anti-town, and if he keeps this strategy I say we take him on his offer of a trade. Lynch me today, and when I flip town, lynch him tomorrow.

1) You mentioned kmd not posting since Sunday but again why ignore Spring who did nothing but confirm?
2) If you were pro-town you would have a better explananation for your fence stand and caring about what people think. Only scum care what people think.

Lets see you voted for kmd first based on something that happened in game and stated that it was an RVS.
You called him out as a lurker almost ignoring SL who hasn't posted.
Then you OMGUS vote saying I'm less active then you remember but I point out the game were in together and now it's you feel I'm less active.

[TheLonging]

@Lacey
1. Actually, taken from Battle Mage's theory, RVS is just as useful as discussion. RVS frustrates scum because it's less likely to result in tunneling fights. You shouldn't discredit the RVS.

But what does it gain town?

Nothing at all, aside for a chance of dicking around.

@Fongoid
Wow, OMGUS much? I expected your reaction given that KMD said it was a serious vote, however you're attacking someone pretty harshly for the early game vote.

Red flag alert, someone is very antsy right now.

Vote Fongoid

I don't see how it was so bad

Wee Random votes:

Vote: The Longing

Because no one else is voting her!

HIM

I see we are past the RVS stage. Well then

Unvote

Carry on.

If we're past RVS, who is scummy? Why aren't you voting them?

I'm at your post so far, and no one at all besides DTM, for voting for Pon with a very flimsy reason.

Reading through the rest of the posts now

[Kmd4390]

Lacey, of course you aren't voting me. You only have one vote to make. And by the way you wanted to call your vote half-RVS, I'm not surprised you jumped on your next attacker.

If you don't care about votes on you, why bother responding to me at all?

I'm cool with this trade. Lynch me today and kmd tomorrow. If kmd is so ready to end the day now when we've got players we haven't even heard from, then he is changing my mind on how scummy he looks. If he is town, he's going to damage the way town plays.

Cool, let's do it.

Having said all that, I'm waffling between you and kmd as my top scum target.

LOLOMGUS

---------------

Farside, because I caught scum. No need to drag out the day.

[TheLonging]

Oh god, Lacey's being attacked. Let me see where this started

[Lacey]

1) You mentioned kmd not posting since Sunday but again why ignore Spring who did nothing but confirm?

Because, if I were to vote on ever little bit that seemed scummy to me, I'd be voting everyone at once. kmd had two strikes, his odd first post, and a delay since previously posting.

2) If you were pro-town you would have a better explananation for your fence stand and caring about what people think. Only scum care what people think.

What? This doesn't make any sense. If I were pro-town I would care what people think, but only scum care what people think? I don't get what you are saying here at all.

Lets see you voted for kmd first based on something that happened in game and stated that it was an RVS.
You called him out as a lurker almost ignoring SL who hasn't posted.

Then he responded, and satisfied me on the question I had posed him.

Then you started fabricating a case from pixie dust. Then I voted you for what I see as you not liking the pressure I was putting on you with my questions about my activity, combined with your fabricated case.

Look you don't like the reasons I voted for kmd initially, and evidently you don't like that my vote was more to get the ball rolling more than anything else. That's cool. But don't act like this is a serious case. Because it isn't.

[Lacey]

Cool, let's do it.

Deal.

Ok town. Vote me. When I flip town, be sure we nail kmd for the scum he is.

Vote: kmd4390

Reasons to vote me:

#1) When I flip town, kmd goes down which is at the very least of benefit to town since he wants to end the day so badly.

#2) If people do think I've been acting scummy, it isn't on purpose, and I don't want to distract a later lynch.

Let's do this.

[Lacey]

EBWOP

unvote

Vote: kmd4390

You really didn't need to unvote...

[CSL]

I love the activity going on here! Here, have some cookies!

*gives cookies*

[Kmd4390]

Hmm. A town response.

Unvote, Vote DTMaster

[Lacey]

Hmm. A town response.

Unvote, Vote DTMaster

No, no, no, no!

He is backing down to easy. Why? Were you hoping I was Fire Mafia and you were Ice or something? No backing down now.

Let's do this trade.

Me first, then kmd!

[CSL]

*sigh* Play to your win condition. If I see you aren't, you will be force-replaced.

[Lacey]

*sigh* Play to your win condition. If I see you aren't, you will be force-replaced.

This is my win condition.

kmd4390 only offered the trade because he knows full well there are two mafia factions. So I believe he did think I was mafia, just not mafia on his side.

This is a trade town can afford because We're 66.7% likely to lynch town anyway.

My belief:

kmd4390 was counting on me to flip the opposite mafia alignment of him letting him get off scott free, despite the fact that he is also mafia, making him seem as an obvious town and strengthening the position of his faction.

We can do this trade either way the rest of town wants. But kmd's sudden back down on the offer means he blinked. I say we either lynch first him, then me, or the other way around.

[TheLonging]

Hmm. A town response.

Unvote, Vote DTMaster

Nice unvoting the moment Lacey takes you up on your offer.

[farside22]

Because, if I were to vote on ever little bit that seemed scummy to me, I'd be voting everyone at once. kmd had two strikes, his odd first post, and a delay since previously posting.

What about other players in the game? You haven't mentioned DTMaster or anyone else really so far

Oh god, Lacey's being attacked. Let me see where this started

I promise to try and not make this as bad as the Gayle/me argument last game.

What? This doesn't make any sense. If I were pro-town I would care what people think, but only scum care what people think? I don't get what you are saying here at all.

Why would town look for affromation on their vote of another player?

[quote="Lacey]Then you started fabricating a case from pixie dust. Then I voted you for what I see as you not liking the pressure I was putting on you with my questions about my activity, combined with your fabricated case. [/quote]
when I show 2 quotes in which you clearly are fence sitting it's not a fabrication.

[farside22]

Hmm. A town response.

Unvote, Vote DTMaster

ORLY!

This is my win condition.

IC hat on:

Your win condition is either mafia or scum. Asking for your own lynch no matter your alignment is against your win condition.