Newbie 922: Day 3

[havingfitz]

Notice that I say nothing about which roles I've been assigned in the past, so, while I point out a connection between those roles and my attitude toward role PMs, you have no basis for drawing a correlation between a certain type of role and a certain reaction.

~How many games have you played on mafia?
~How many times were you town and scum?
Which do you prefer playing?

Votecount
Lawls - 2 (Elementary Fermion, Cojin)
havingfitz - 1 (Acosmist)
Elementary Fermion - 1 (Independent John)
Cojin - 1 (havingfitz)
Acosmist - 1 (Lawls)

Not Voting - 2 (Panacea, RayFrost)

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch

[Acosmist]

Notice that I say nothing about which roles I've been assigned in the past, so, while I point out a connection between those roles and my attitude toward role PMs, you have no basis for drawing a correlation between a certain type of role and a certain reaction.

~How many games have you played on mafia?
~How many times were you town and scum?
Which do you prefer playing?

I have played once before here, as a mafia goon. (Is that what you meant by "on mafia"?)

I haven't played enough to develop a real preference. My biggest weakness is probably scumhunting, so being town is probably the most instructive at this stage of my development.

[RayFrost]

Rayfrost: States Panacea is obv town, and that the case on her is horrible. How can you be so certain in the first day phase of a game? Scum helping out scum? Trying to get her out of the spotlight who knows. Panacea’s reaction when Rayfrost came in could be just that a normal reaction, or one that she has him as a scum buddy. Wants me to post more as well in which I am doing now

So to conclude

FOS on Rayfrost, Panacea and Havingfitz
Unvote Vote Acosmist

Ignoring the rest of your post, lemme just respond to your reason for suspecting me...

I disagree with the case against panananananana and said that I think panananana is town.

AMAZING.

I'm obviously scum for disagreeing with people! You disagree with my read of pan, making you obv scum too! Heck, everybody that thought pan was scummy is obviously scummy for doing so.

Yeah, you'll have to redo your case to have something with real substance to it before you get much of a defense, kiddo.

Anyway, the general quality of the posting by lawls is slightly better than my previous experience with him, but overall I think he's being sincere, even if he's not doing too well (I might be giving too much of a newb pass, but I don't care).

[Lawls]

Onto other things...

Lawls: How is Panacea's play in this game consistent with her play in other games?

I haven't read other games that she has been in so I wouldn't know.

Panacea I don't see how my post isn't helping town, you tell me to post more I do, most my thoughts on players I do. Yet you still criticize me for not being helpful enough.

[Panacea]

You said your chattiness got you nightkilled early in a previous game. Does that bother you?

Oh,

definitely

not. It may seem simple-minded, but I was honored. It made me really happy to be the N1 NK, because there was a chance it meant I was a threat to scum. It was being NK'ed in that game that first woke me up to the thought that my talkative nature could actually be used to help.

Your answer has helped. You're very conscious of your chattiness.

Oh, very. How could I not be? It's mentioned as scummy in every game I play. -.-

What types of roles were those?

Vanilla townie and mafia goon.

And these were unsatisfying? Why, if you don't mind my asking?

Have you only played with RayFrost when he was town? Your post seems to analyze him as largely a town asset, his only flaw being that scum mislynch him. Can you envision him as mafia, and what problems this would cause? I'd like to know how you'd evaluate him in that role.

I've only played with him as town, yes. I've read two of his scum games before, but it was for entertainment purposes. I intend to run a Ray-meta over the next two days. I can definitely tell you then.

The only thing keeping me from taking offense is the fact that I know you're incorrect.

The truth value of that statement will be apparent in the fullness of time.

Excellent! Oh, and I'd like to add to the prospect of my being swayed by flattery, or whatever: Ray said I was obv town here. He's told me that before, when both of us were townies.

You pointed out how he isn't paying enough attention to know who's in it or not; is there a pro-scum angle to that move?

Mm, that's a good point... Maybe not. But it's not overly pro-town, either.

Panacea I don't see how my post isn't helping town, you tell me to post more I do, most my thoughts on players I do. Yet you still criticize me for not being helpful enough.

It's not that you're posting, it's

what

you're posting. Maybe it's because I haven't played as town in a while, but I just get a gut scummy vibe (and I make a solid effort to avoid the gut defense, so this is weird) from the way you analyzed each player; it looks like it's consciously supposed to appear more productive than it is. A lot of the logic seems stretched and slightly warped to fit an agenda...

@ Ray: Could you link me to the game in which you played with Lawls, please?

@ Bridges: I don't think I ever addressed this, but it's been bothering me. When Acosmist had mentioned meta-ing me, you promptly asked him what were his conclusions. It's odd to me that you never did so yourself, or offered your own.

[RayFrost]

It's ongoing, pananananana.

[Lawls]

You wouldn't even what to see the way I played in the game. Lynched 1st day as a vanilla townie game 909 if you want to read it

[havingfitz]

Mod, I'll be v/LA from 2300GMT tonight till 1500GMT this Thursday.

Away on a short notice business trip and I won't be able to log into the site while I am gone.

[Elementary Fermion]

The ongoing discussion is deep and meaningful, and I would be remiss were I not to participate by further spamming the thread with long winded ramblings about nothing.

So. . . despite Acosmist's research regarding Panacea's chatty nature, I still find it highly suspicious. Feeling guilty? Why not bury the board with loads and loads of nothing. Good luck to the town finding a kernel of evidence among the chaff. Same goes for RayFrost. I am sure it is just a playing "style" or some such, but it is suspicios. In fact, I would not be surprised if these "styles" are cultivated for exactly that reason, and after many games, when the suspicious activity has been used for innocent goles and guilty ones alike, people wouldn't be so sure.

But, as this is my first game on MafiaScum (hello you two other MS n00bs in this "newbie game"), I find the overwhelming posting of feeble-at-best theories to be, well, scummy.

However, in an attempt not to extend this day even further, I am not going to change my vote. I voted once with firm conviction and I am standing by it. I am not going to be a 2d or 3d vote on someone and ignite a marathon of "EF is jumping on bandwagons defend yoruself scummy &c."

Conclusion, lots of unnecessary posts looks suspicious to me, and when there has been so little action so far, most posts are unnecessary.

[Acosmist]

I haven't read other games that she has been in so I wouldn't know.

I'm going to multiply your opinion by the "relevance coefficient" then. Currently it's equal to the limit of 1/x as x -> infinity.

Panacea I don't see how my post isn't helping town, you tell me to post more I do, most my thoughts on players I do. Yet you still criticize me for not being helpful enough.

Your thoughts on players were the recycled, reworded, and logic-deprived thoughts of other players on those players.

Oh,

definitely

not. It may seem simple-minded, but I was honored. It made me really happy to be the N1 NK, because there was a chance it meant I was a threat to scum. It was being NK'ed in that game that first woke me up to the thought that my talkative nature could actually be used to help.

Actually, I sort of understand. In my first game, a theme game, the mafia discussion (opened postgame) revealed that the mafia nightkilled me because they thought I was a cop. As I was a vanilla townie, this was a pretty good thing. And the town eventually won, so I did my part!

Oh, very. How could I not be? It's mentioned as scummy in every game I play. -.-

Well, some people don't have the time like I do to look through your games and find the patterns to the chattiness. So, they notice you've been scum fairly often, and they see a loose correlation between

your

chattiness and scuminess. Then they judge you via the general rule that spammy posting is hiding something, and the scuminess judgment is solidified. For what it's worth, I don't see it that way.

And these were unsatisfying? Why, if you don't mind my asking?

My first game was at a location infamous for clever, original roles and lots of flavor. I'd spent considerable time reading old games there before finally signing up. And then I was just a vanilla townie. It wasn't a huge disappointment, and, to be fair, I would have felt overwhelmed if I had had the responsibility of playing a town power role, but it began inculcating a sense of indifference to role PMs in me.

My first game here was as a mafia goon. Perhaps being in the know is less exciting because there's less mystery, but I don't recall being particularly thrilled about that role either.

At this point, I think I'd like to see what the vigilante fuss is all about, though obviously that can't happen in Newbie games. I'd like the chance to go directly from problem (scum detected) to solution (scum eliminated). You might ask why I'm playing a Newbie game...well, I still feel pretty lost trying to work through games, so I wanted to continue getting my feet wet before diving in.

I've only played with him as town, yes. I've read two of his scum games before, but it was for entertainment purposes. I intend to run a Ray-meta over the next two days. I can definitely tell you then.

I think that would be useful for several purposes. Some people have brought up the theory that you two might be working together...since I

have

read some of your and RayFrost's games, I'd be in a position to spot misrepresentations if they pop up.

Excellent! Oh, and I'd like to add to the prospect of my being swayed by flattery, or whatever: Ray said I was obv town here. He's told me that before, when both of us were townies.

Good to know.

Mm, that's a good point... Maybe not. But it's not overly pro-town, either.

Fair enough.

@ Bridges: I don't think I ever addressed this, but it's been bothering me. When Acosmist had mentioned meta-ing me, you promptly asked him what were his conclusions. It's odd to me that you never did so yourself, or offered your own.

My gentle prods to people were apparently too subtle. I don't think anyone else is reading your games, which is fine, but making judgments about your quirky posting style without seeing how it's reflected your alignment in previous games is fruitless.

I made this post long to annoy Elementary Fermion.

Unvote; Vote: Lawls

. It looks like you're unhappy someone called you on your spammy, recycled "analysis" post.

[Elementary Fermion]

I made this post long to annoy Elementary Fermion.

I LOLed. Nice.

[Lawls]

And people say my posts and worthy

[Acosmist]

And people say my posts and worthy

??????

[RayFrost]

And people say my posts and worthy

??????

He's saying that fermi made a pointless, contentless post.

[Elementary Fermion]

And people say my posts and worthy

??????

He's saying that fermi made a pointless, contentless post.

And he almost said it coherently! My post was indeed pointless and devoid of content. That is why it fits in here so well.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

Okay, so I read this game, thought about several posts I was going to make, and I thought I had made them. Sorry for the recent inactivity!

[BridgesAndBaloons]

He's made three posts in the game...I don't recall what his first two were...I doubt they were much...but his third post was to explain his further lack of posting. Why are you defending him?

Wow, that is true. I totally didn't realize he had posted so little, my bad. Consider this an unFOS.

5) Lurking for two days with a real excuse isn't even scummy to begin with.

No. But he's at eight days now.

Good point, again, I hadn't taken the time to look at the lurker in detail before my FOS and in retrospect that was foolish.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

@ Bridges: I don't think I ever addressed this, but it's been bothering me. When Acosmist had mentioned meta-ing me, you promptly asked him what were his conclusions. It's odd to me that you never did so yourself, or offered your own.

There's actually several reasons I asked Acosmist for his analysis:
1) so he could have a stated opinion that would be harder to go back on (in case he was scum and you became an appetizing wagon or anti-wagon).
2) to possibly help me and everyone understand Panacea's play more.
3) to get a read on Acosmist later*

*I actually intend to do a light meta of you myself later on. If I find ways that my meta analysis does not add up with Acosmist, I've got a reason to suspect Acosmist now. If I had just done the meta for the first place, I'd have no one to compare to.

[Panacea]

So. . . despite Acosmist's research regarding Panacea's chatty nature, I still find it highly suspicious. Feeling guilty? Why not bury the board with loads and loads of nothing.

Well that's a mite extreme; I wasn't aware that you held that esteemable authority of deeming all of my content as "nothing." I'm not posting spam. I'm fairly certain that all of my posts (though I'll give you the "Welcome, Ray" post and maybe a couple of others) contain at least

some

content.

Actually, I sort of understand. In my first game, a theme game, the mafia discussion (opened postgame) revealed that the mafia nightkilled me because they thought I was a cop. As I was a vanilla townie, this was a pretty good thing. And the town eventually won, so I did my part!

Precisely my sentiments.

My first game was at a location infamous for clever, original roles and lots of flavor. I'd spent considerable time reading old games there before finally signing up. And then I was just a vanilla townie. It wasn't a huge disappointment, and, to be fair, I would have felt overwhelmed if I had had the responsibility of playing a town power role, but it began inculcating a sense of indifference to role PMs in me.

My first game here was as a mafia goon. Perhaps being in the know is less exciting because there's less mystery, but I don't recall being particularly thrilled about that role either.

Oh, wow, that would leave a bad taste. And I've never been a goon, but I'll bet you might have enjoyed scum more as Roleblocker.

I've only played with him as town, yes. I've read two of his scum games before, but it was for entertainment purposes. I intend to run a Ray-meta over the next two days. I can definitely tell you then.

I think that would be useful for several purposes. Some people have brought up the theory that you two might be working together...since I have read some of your and RayFrost's games, I'd be in a position to spot misrepresentations if they pop up.

Yes, I'd planned to meta Ray anyway. It's a matter of finding the time to sit down and do it. We can't all be Acosmists.

@ Bridges: I don't think I ever addressed this, but it's been bothering me. When Acosmist had mentioned meta-ing me, you promptly asked him what were his conclusions. It's odd to me that you never did so yourself, or offered your own.

My gentle prods to people were apparently too subtle. I don't think anyone else is reading your games, which is fine, but making judgments about your quirky posting style without seeing how it's reflected your alignment in previous games is fruitless.

I wouldn't nitpick him for the meta (as I said, it's hard to find the time), but he did promise to do so to prove the existence of the RVS/RQS debate, and then the next he mentioned it was to ask Acosmist what

he'd

found.

And people say my posts and worthy

??????

He's saying that fermi made a pointless, contentless post.

Which he did via a pointless, contentless post. Oh, the irony.

Sorry guys but first and foremost

I am responding to a prod, but I have and will be over the next

2 days

busy with university starting again and my commitment to the frisbee club and other important societies there I will not be active but I shall try and do some reading tonight and report back asap!

This post was made four days ago. We're at over 1/3 of the Day Phase, with three posts by him.

Mod, I know he gave reason for being busy, but is there anything you can do?

Also, I'll have more time tonight to work on my Ray-meta.

[Acosmist]

I actually intend to do a light meta of you myself later on.

This pleases me. I am making a note of your intentions, so I can hold you to them.

Everyone should set aside a few dozen uninterrupted hours and read the Panacea corpus.

[Panacea]

Everyone should set aside a few dozen uninterrupted hours and read the Panacea corpus.

Look, I'm really sorry!! I didn't even know what meta WAS when I started playing, or I might've made some effort to forcibly regulate my posting habits. I know none but two of you can take what I say at face value, but I recommend Newbie 890 for my best townplay and Newbie #879 for my best scumplay. Logically, they're my two most recent, too, so you can get a sense of how I am outside newbie waters.

Seriously, I'm sorry!

[Elementary Fermion]

So. . . despite Acosmist's research regarding Panacea's chatty nature, I still find it highly suspicious. Feeling guilty? Why not bury the board with loads and loads of nothing.

Well that's a mite extreme; I wasn't aware that you held that esteemable authority of deeming all of my content as "nothing." I'm not posting spam. I'm fairly certain that all of my posts (though I'll give you the "Welcome, Ray" post and maybe a couple of others) contain at least

some

content.

Point taken -- you have been far too nice to warrant such pointed langauge as "nothing."

So, let's turn this into a teaching moment. Let's pretend that I am somewhat new to the concept of playing Mafia on a forum such as this. Let's further assume that, based on said limited experience and other vague impressions, that I do not place a lot of stock in analysis based on a random vote, believing that the results of Day/Night 1 are far more enligtening.

Now, with this supposition in mind, why don't some of you non-newbies explain why I am wrong and what exactly is the worth of posting ad nausem on Day 1. Heaven knows we have enough non-n00bs in this game.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

Yeah this game is ridiculously stacked with experience.


Eventually all of our random votes can be analyzed. For instance, who hopped on the Panacea wagon after I did? Who jumped off and when? Why? It seems paradoxical to me that random votes ultimately can create meaning, but they do. The more we discuss suspicions and ideas, the more reactions you can look at. It's possible to have a very informed Day 1 lynch based simply off of analyzing the exchanges around random wagons that then form real wagons and reading those wagons too... This is why it's possible to lynch scum Day 1, although difficult.

Then Day 2, imagine if we made no posts on day 1 and just did a random lynch... We would have very little to go off and would start on Day 1 again, probably with 2 less townies. However, but having a wealth of information on Day 1 we can reflect on that with the probably 2 confirmed (scum or innocent) players and read previous actions more clearly.

[Lawls]

I would like one answer from everybody at this stage.

What are your thoughts on Acomist's play so far
What are your thoughts on my play so far

Thankyou

[Acosmist]

What are your thoughts on Acomist's play so far

A tour de force.

What are your thoughts on my play so far

Soporific.

You need to get in the game, so to speak. You're posting more, but that posting needs to have more content. You need to do some original analysis. I don't expect everyone to put in an hour analyzing each player's current and historical play, but you need to come up with at least one original insight. When people call you on this flaw, you need to avoid petulant

tu quoque

counterattacks.

Say something of substance, and when it gets torn to shreds (as it will), cowboy up and defend yourself.