Mini 930:Morning People Mafia (Game Over!)

[chauchaudotcom]

Vote: Nobody Special

for trying to deceive us with your user name. I see through your lies!

[chauchaudotcom]

Can you get an avatar RZ?

[chauchaudotcom]

vote:chauchaudotcom

for having the

coolest

avatar I've seen in my lifetime

Fixed.

I want to know what the symbol means.

Ironically enough, it means "g'morning".

[chauchaudotcom]

That one little character means "good morning?" Japanese is awesome.

Actually, it's Chinese. But Japanese use the same character. =)

Who else hates RVS?

I always preferred RQS because there's at least more (seemingly) useful discussion that stems from it. But I'm not familiar enough with normal games to do RQS yet so I fall back on RVS. In general, early D1's suck.

Actually, I don't mind it. It's good for things like finding patterns, looking for bandwagons and attempted quicklynches, and basically just a way to get to know other players before it starts.

If the voting is, in fact, random. How exactly does it give you useful patterns? The bandwagoning that happens due to RVS is usually, as far as I've seen, just done to spark up more conversation, and is oftentimes done by pro-town figures as well as scum. Do you really think scum will attempt to quick lynch with a random bandwagon?

I do, actually. What's everyone's favorite role? Playstyle? If so for either, then why? Any previous games? Links, please, if so? Hopefully this'll start some discussion. Wink

I've only played in newbie games and one normal games so my experience with roles is really limited. The two games I was scum in were exceedingly stressful and the one cop game I got was an utter fail. So for now, I guess my answer would be vanilla townie. Though I've been reading up on more normals lately and it sounds rather fun to play a mason.

My previous games are in my wiki. As for play style.. Uh...I type a lot?

Fallen - How experienced are you with mafia?

Fitz - What's your view on early bandwagons?

[chauchaudotcom]

Two pages behind already. =

quot;]Any particular scumhunting techniques you use a lot?

Ask questions, look for inconsistencies.

Hmmm.

Such insight! Any thoughts on FA's 'gambit'?

If someone jumped off the second I put deer so close to a lynch, I'd lean towards them being town.

False, scum often do it to clear themselves as town. Particularly since scum don't want to be held responsible for a quicklynch that doesn't appear legitimate (since it did spawn from RVS). Especially since you stated multiple times it was a gambit.

Deer - If you feel rz's move was mostly out of newbness, why are you voting him?

The scummiest part of this is without any explanation I think it looks more like an attempt to hammer and he missed the unvote (although he will deny it).

That's some fine tuned wifoming my friend.

RZ - Who's your top suspect right now?

FA - What makes you think RZ is newb scum versus newb town?

[chauchaudotcom]

That was me my friend and FA didn't vote for him, I did and as I said it was

I don't believe I ever claimed he did. I was questioning FA's statement about hang's action being scummy versus newb given his statement: "although I am pretty convinced of rzhang's scumminess"

[chauchaudotcom]

I don't like the vote, or how fallen angel responded. No vote yet, but explain yourself rz

What do you mean you don't like how FA responded? Can you elaborate?

[chauchaudotcom]

I can't picture a true town player saying "Well, I'm going to vote the one person with multiple votes on him without providing any reasoning." How could that come off as town at all?

It doesn't come off as town. But it seemed more like a newbie slip then a scum slip. Though it may have been a newbie scum slip. But really, with only one infraction claiming your sure he's scum is a pretty bold statement.

chauchau, I'm pretty sure you have me confused with water_foul, by the way.

Oh snap. My bad. Animal pictures are confusing me. xD

Hmm. Well, I'm personally okay with fallen's "gambit," but here's what I think could have happened: fallen places his vote, rzhang sees there's some sort of bandwagon happening, hops on. his vote is seen as scummy, he has to back up and pretend like he knew what fallen was doing the whole time to defend himself, which I'm pretty sure he didn't. he made that post only after fallen explained himself to the the town. Putting me at L-1 (which i think I wasn't ever at anyways, haha) for no reason doesn't really help the town. I'm not satisfied at all with his explanation of trying to help the gambit work - it just seems like retroactive justification to me. And now he's talking about whether this game will be "gambit friendly" as if he has a whole bunch of experience on the site.

Deer, do you think scum would knowingly L-1 someone on a

random

bandwagon? And how does his questioning of whether this game is gambit friendly make him scum?

Me too. Lying is basically as antitown as it gets. A real townie has nothing to hide, so why lie?

Fyi, PR have to lie sometimes. Also, I've seen some damn good pro town gambits that involved lying as well. But I'll agree that for the most part lying is anti-town.

Follow a failed gambit that you try to distance yourself from later? Nice.

Where did hang attempt to distance himself? If anything, he's taken full responsibility for his actions.

[chauchaudotcom]

Fitz - So rz isn't a noob and all. He's fully aware of the consequences of his actions. So why does that make him scum (above FA)? Particularly given he never really L-1'ed Deer.

[chauchaudotcom]

I don't like the vote, or how fallen angel responded. No vote yet, but explain yourself rz

Could you explain what you didn't like about FA's response before? Also, why did you choose to unvote during FA's gambit knowing that there probably wasn't going to be a hammer?

That being said, I don't find fallen scummy for having attempted it. what I do find scummy, though, is rzhang's defense of his vote on me and the fact that right now, he is basically refusing to scumhunt by not telling us who his top suspect is.

What exactly is scummy about his defense? From what I gather fallen and rz did it for the same reasons, to gauge reactions. EXCEPT, that fallen said it was a gambit beforehand and rz waited until after wards to say it. But what makes saying it after more scummy? (Not suspicious but

scummy

)

Water_Foul (4) - 55% Because honestly I have been lurking some, sorry i will try to be more active

Am I the only one irked by this? The only time I've seen someone evaluate themselves they turned out to be scum. I see no reason why town would ever need to evaluate themselves.

[chauchaudotcom]

Would both/either one of you explain why this would be a scum tell, other than a few anecdotal examples? I agree that it's a strange and perhaps dumb thing to do, but I don't see why that would make you guys think he's scum.

My reasoning is fairly simple. As scum you have a tendency to evaluate not only other players but yourself as well (because you aren't pro-town, you try to measure up how pro-town you appear to be). Which is what happened in one of my last games.

And the particular game I'm referencing here is:
viewtopic.php?t=12987&start=0

Where Alex, one of the scum, did a rather thorough analysis of everyone, including himself.

Also, who's your top at the moment te?

I mainly didn't like the top paragraph, since I'm getting the faint smell of him saying "well, it was a good plan for us as scum, but unfortunately it got screwed up."

So you're claiming that you see FA and rz as a scum pair? How exactly did you manage to interpret his statement as "you've failed us as scum" versus "you've failed us as town"?

so, I will vote: rzhang86 for the same reasons as the others, and the fact that he seems to be acting like he controls the game already, something scum practically are, since they know everyone else is town.

Your reason for voting rz is weak. How does rz control the game right now? Being in control means being able to direct the town as he pleases. Right now, a lot of town don't believe rz, so how is he in control?

Also, what made you decide to vote him now versus before?

[chauchaudotcom]

I will be V/LA for this weekend until monday. I can still post until like four or fiveish today. Just an FYI

[chauchaudotcom]

The way he talks seems confident, as if he knows everything. I'm not saying that he controls the town but has more knowledge than the rest of us. With all of his explanations, he is giving more of reasons why a situation or gambit or whatever else is possible, instead of defending himself directly.

Can you point out where in his posts it indicates/hints at him having prior/more knowledge?

[chauchaudotcom]

Unvote; Vote smashbro_of_the_SSS

[chauchaudotcom]

wt ninja'd

unvote

I gotta recheck the vote count

[chauchaudotcom]

Okay, just making sure. He's L-2.

Vote: smashbro_of_the_SSS

JB - Why do you think rz is scummy? You quoted a line he wrote when you voted but never explained.

[chauchaudotcom]

Back from V/LA.

@all.....do you think rz asking for replacement is frustrated town or cornered scum? (I realize there may be other reasons besides these two [ex. RL issues] but between the two choices I provided...which do you think is more likely?)

Honestly I feel it could go either way. Rz was heavily under pressure but at the same time pressure was redirecting towards Smash right before rz replaced. If you looked at the vote counts there were more votes on smash then rz at the time. The act of replacing out is null tell for now.

Smash - What's your experience with mafia?

I still think rzhang's moves with the gambit and whatnot were worse.

So. Question. Why were rz's actions scummy and not FA's? The only difference being FA said it was a gambit before hand and RZ said it was a gambit after?

So, water_foul. After apologizing to the town for lurking, you've still posted nothing on contribution. Any thoughts to input?

[chauchaudotcom]

OH, sorry I misread... Like I said in the post I am in untested waters here and don't know what to think but someone asked for my input so I gave it.

I was going to stay relatively quiet till replacements came and I got back on stable footing and let those who are much better at this keep the game up till then.

(Please don't see this as Lurking as that is not my intention, I'm just trying not to make a confusing situation, at least to me, worse)

Why'd you apologize for lurking if you were planning on just lurking anyway? Given the replacements aren't the only one in the game, why wouldn't you take this time to question other people? Why wait for other people to do your work for you?

And for the record no matter how much you ask us, this is considered lurking. Even worse, it's active lurking.

I'm assuming meaning playing as mafia? Or just the game in general. Anyway, I've played some games with friends at parties, but they were largely informal, and no real evidence was used. In those games I was only ever townie, and maybe a doc once.

I meant in general.

But I am going to

Unvote

for now.

we can also determine whether FA was "playing well" and decided not to play well as scum anymore or if he wasn't "playing well" -- and somehow, I think the definition of "playing well" in this instance includes this gambit-thing of his.

Wifom.

I just don't really think it's bad enough to vote him.... yet. I think we might, maybe, want to give his replacement a small chance. Maybe.

Then why did you imply that you would have voted him if he didn't replace out? "If rzhang wasn't replacing out, I'd be voting him." made it seem as if you pretty set on voting him except outside circumstances prevent you from doing so (which it shouldn't btw). His replacement has the same role as he does. Why would him replacing out change that?

Also, what are your updated views? Other then the replacements we're waiting on, who is suspicious in your eyes?

[chauchaudotcom]

So I'm watching him, and look forward to seeing him under pressure.

How would he be under pressure if you don't question him, vote him or put him under any sort of pressure?

[chauchaudotcom]

Kai gave us a vote count on the bottom of page 8. Only two things have changed from that.

Current Vote Count:
rzhang86(2): Deer, havingfitz
Deer(2): rzhang86, sucrose
smashbro_of_the_SSS(2): jbernier93, Sucrose

Not Voting (5): fallen angel, Nobody Special, smashbro_of_the_SSS, TeWuicah, water_foul, chauchaudotcom

[chauchaudotcom]

Nobody Special - Answer post 202.

Fitz - what's your view on JB?

JB - how do you feel about Smash's accusations against you?

Deer - Other then rz who's your next most likely to be scum candidate?

Vote: Nobody Special

. Lead by example! People need to start voting instead of being so noncommittal.

[chauchaudotcom]

fitz, would you mind linking me to the game where you played scum?

[chauchaudotcom]

We could always cut Sucrose in half, you know, to make it match. >=]

[chauchaudotcom]

That's a pretty good question. Not a huge fan of SSSS's play, but Nobody Special has been active lurking quite a bit. If he keeps posting content-less posts like he has been, probably him.

What's your thoughts on water_foul then? Who has openly admitted to not just lurking, but active lurking?

[chauchaudotcom]

I call bs on everyone complaining there is nothing to talk about. If there is nothing to talk about, you ask questions, you ACTIVELY scumhunt. What are you waiting for? Scum to run around screaming, "OMG I'M SCUM LYNCH MEEEE!!!"

Smash - I had a question for you on the page before this. Why would JB be worrying about 'pressure' if you're not even voting him, or even questioning him about his actions? Why aren't you pursuing someone you find suspicious? Given that there are 12 people in this game, and MORE THEN ONE SCUM, even if rzhang was scum, why aren't you trying to find the other scum?

Unvote: Vote: Smashbro

because you lot are pissing me off and I bloody feel like it.

And I fucking love how the three people who respond didn't even address fitz's question. (Yes, I am in a terrible mood today and I am projecting it onto you guys.)

Does anyone else think rz replacing out (or FA for that matter) compounds suspicions that were already on them?

The act of replacing out is a null tell, because we can never distinguish whether it was real life or role related. The suspicion cast upon the two before still remains, but it does not increase or decrease simply because they replaced out.

If you suspected rz before he bailed...are you willing give rz's replacement a clean slate? For me the answer is no....whic h is why my vote is still on him.

They have the same role, why would you give them a clean slate?

Slow game. How many lurkers do we have?

Too many.

So. I have a proposition. You guys should all join the smash wagon. Why? Because wagons are good. Wagons make stuff happen. Do it. You know you wanna.

[chauchaudotcom]

Mod: votecount's wrong. Both Te and JB switched to Smash

Syke: I accidentally put them under the wrong one. Fixed.

I especially suspect rz more because I felt he was under a good bit of pressure at the time.

For all of you who feel like the replacing out makes him for sure scum, how are you so positive that he replaced out because of scum frustration versus townie frustration? Given that just before to his replacement a lot of the attention was shifting towards Smash, RZ could have easily bounced back and tried to lurk it out or slide by as smash quickly rised up all of our scumdars. I just don't see how you can wifom it one way without considering the other possibility as well.

I saw that rz was not only frustrated with himself, but with town AND with the mod as well. Who knows what could have been going on in his mind, scum OR town. Giving the replacement a clean slate? Hell no. But the act of replacing out is a null tell.

And for FA he seemed genuinely busy with life (if you read his last few posts). Though I wish both had the courtesy of at least telling us prior to.

Sounds like fun!

Why are you willing to bandwagon someone you find town?

Other than that, I'm getting town vibes from your reply. I was more curious as to how you would respond when pressured than honestly suspicious, anyway. Hey, so long as everyone else is pulling off gambits. I see no point in having my vote on you anymore, so...

Ok, feel free to wagon me, at least it will get me more into the game. Just watch out for any premature lynches.

......

As for the fact about my lurking, I don't know, I wasn't actively lurking, I truly had nothing to say, and so contributed to my not posting here

Have you heard of the term scum hunting before? Well, do it.

but unfortunately it does not look like that will happen soon.

What do you mean? If you are suspicious of JB, why not question his jumping around and commit a vote to him? Why did you pick water_foul instead of JB?

[chauchaudotcom]

Mod: what's cross replacing?

You replace into someone else's game and I get a replacement here

lol, while i was making a case against him, you posted this. I originally picked waterfowl because of the people who were under pressure of votes, water_fowl seemed like the best vote to get information from, and help make my decision.

Seeing how water_foul hasn't posted since who knows when, my apologies if I don't exactly buy this excuse.

I'm a bit uncomfortable with him having four votes now though, especially given that his most recent post mimics my thoughts on jbernier3* and also because I may not be able to check this thread in the next 24 hours or so, so I'll Unvote.

He's only at L2 and you're uncomfortable? Isn't the point of voting him to pressure him to talk more? How is that achieved if you so easily back off the wagon?

What really gets me about this is in iso7 when he attributes at least part of his lurkiness to being in "untested waters" because players who were more at the center of attention requested to be replaced. He joined in 2007 yet he's thrown off by a replacement... that seems very odd to me, and more like making excuses for lurking, not being so active.

Just to play devil's advocate...he only has 96 posts so his excuse could have been legitimate. Granted, whether it's the truth or not, it is still a weak excuse.

Also, welcome!

Nobody Special - Look! Things are happening! Your thoughts?

[chauchaudotcom]

Welcome replacements.

Spyrex - What is your opinion on your predecessor's playing. Who at the moment is your top suspect? Do you feel the current smash wagon is justified? What do you think about the original bandwagon that happened on rzhang?

Asking what about his play is scummy= big scumtell.

Are you referring to the following quote? Or to something else?

Smash: "Also, deer brings up an interesting point, what are the exact reasons for my play being scummy? Is it just this quote, saying that bandwagoning would help, the makes me scummy?"

Also sucrose, other then smash, who is the next most likely contender to be scum to you?

The deadline is looming people! Let's get scumhunting!

[chauchaudotcom]

Scum or not, I love you Spy.

...in a platonic, non creepy sort of way of course.


...maybe.

[chauchaudotcom]

Mod: Am I allowed to request a mass prod? Given that we finally have replacements and are five days away from deadline?

[chauchaudotcom]

Random Voting:

Sucrose -> Deer
Nobody -> Sucrose
Chau -> Nobody
Water -> Deer
JB -> Chau
FA-> Water
Smash -> Deer
Fitz -> Nobody
Te -> Smash

Abstains: Deer, Rz

--- Gambit

JB -> Unvote
FA -> Unvote
FA -> Deer (L-2)
Smash -> Unvote
RZ -> Deer (L-2)

--- Rz Wagon

Fitz -> Rz
Water -> Rz
FA -> Unvote
Fitz -> FA
JB -> Rz
FA -HoS> Rz
Deer -> Rz
Fitz -> Rz (L-2)
Smash -> Rz (L-1)

--- Smash Wagon

Sucrose -> Smash (vote doesn't go through)
Nobody -> Unvote
Smash -> Unvote
JB -> Smash
Chau -> Smash (L-2)
Chau -> Unvote
Chau -> Smash (L-2)

--- Rz & FA request replacement

Nobody -FoS> Rz & FA
Te -> Unvote
Water -> Unvote
Fits -FoS> Water
Sucrose -> Smash (fixes vote)
Chau -> Unvote
JB -FoS> Water
JB -> Nobody
Fitz -FoS> Nobody
Chau -> Nobody
Nobody -> Rz
Te -> Water

--- Smash Wagon Take Two!

Chau -> Smash
Te -> Smash
Smash -> Water
JB -> Smash (L-2)
Smash -> JB

--- Peanut replaces FA

Peanut (FA) -> Water
Te -> Unvote

--- Dragon replaces Rz, Spy replaces Water

Spy (Water) -> Nobody

[chauchaudotcom]

These are the notable things I got from it.

- JB is second or third vote on every bandwagon
- Rz, FA, and Water make one move then disappear off the face of the earth.
- Fitz is FoS crazy and doesn't change vote from Rz
- Deer's vote has stayed on Rz all game and hasn't changed
- Smash backs off Rz vote quickly as well as changing vote from water to JB quickly.
- Nobody is noncommittal all game until questioned about it.
- Te has generally followed where the votes are going all game and has not initiated any bandwagons. Possible parroting and attempt to blend in background..

In conclusion: Not all of you can be scum, therefore town is playing a terrible game.

[chauchaudotcom]

My vote remains. Smash is still the scummiest to me right now.

[chauchaudotcom]

Oh no no. Not a deadline extension. Just a mass prod because we are so close to the deadline.

[chauchaudotcom]

Sucrose's vote was just a confirm vote. He had already been voting RZ in ISO 12.

Which also means Smash is at L-1. I believe this is the time to claim.

[chauchaudotcom]

That being said, I'm not claiming that rzhang/Dragonfly and SSSS must be townies, but I feel it's more beneficial to go after those who aren't in (and attracting by their responses) the limelight. Let's be honest, if those two are town, they are easy for scum to push and lynch without rousing too much suspicion from their accusations.

You do realize that lynches give us information as well as a chance to hit scum right? Seeing the flip and being able to analyze bandwagon and voting relationships is a big part of this game.

I agree that D1 lynch statistics are troubling. However, using that as an excuse to vote someone else bothers me. Particularly given we are not just talking about pressuring here but an actual lynch.

[chauchaudotcom]

So don't wrongfully accuse me of not wanting to lynch

I didn't accuse you of not wanting to lynch. Don't misrep what I wrote. I simply meant I did not agree with your reasoning because I think lynching someone who is BOTH highly likely to be scum and who's lynch will give you information is important.

For instance: If both NS and Smash are scummy and smash's flip is going to give me more information to work with tomorrow, then I'm going to vote Smash.

Justified? Why are you voting Nobody then? Because the explanation I got was that you're voting him because you don't want to vote for RZ or Smash.

[chauchaudotcom]

Also, so it's clear:

SMASH IS L-1 RIGHT NOW

[chauchaudotcom]

^ Sucrose voted him way before. Mod did the count wrong.

[chauchaudotcom]

You're right. x_x Wow. Sorry about that guys. I saw the mod say that Sucrose's vote wasn't counted because it wasn't bolded so I thought Smash had 4 votes w/o Sucrose's vote. Evidently it's too early in the morning for basic reading skills. =[

[chauchaudotcom]

If your justification was in your first post, what was the point of you discussing why you weren't going to vote Rz and Smash anyway? Your post talked mainly about the bad statistics of D1 lynches and then you switched your vote. Which is why I associated that with your vote switch.

Also, for your actual accusations:
"in before prod" - How is this scummy?
What does overconfidence have to do with being scummy?
Does not being helpful equate scummy?

Isn't your first question a leading one, implying that I don't want to lynch? Did I really misrep you, or was your initial question more accusatory that you would have liked?
Also, the fact that SSSS and DF are "highly likely" to be scum is your own opinion. If I believe that NS is BOTH "highly likely" to be scum, and that his lynch will give me information, then you shouldn't disagree with my reasoning. You can disagree with my views on who's likely scum, but not my reasoning for voting.

You've misunderstood me. My first question was talking about lynches in general. Not the act of lynching. No where in your post did you say you didn't want a lynch so why in the world would I come to such a conclusion?

I was talking about how you said because of how weary you are of D1 lynches, you did not want to vote the two who were 'in the limelight'. I was merely pointing out that even though D1 flips do not always turn scum, the important thing is the information you get from the flip. Granted, it would be awesome if we got scum but I'm being realistic about this as well. And you need to realize that individuals who are anti-town or under heavy suspicion are usually left alive by scum. Allowing scum to have scapegoats later on in the game is far more detrimental for town imo.

And to clarify, I don't think DF is scum and I never did. I was merely referencing the two biggest bandwagons at the moment.

As for information, there has been far more activity on Smash's wagon and Smash has had far more interactions with others then Nobody. But you are right about the opinion. My view on Smash does bias my perspective in some ways.

[chauchaudotcom]

"My first question was talking about lynches in general. Not the act of lynching."

Lol. Fail. I meant to say.. "Not whether you wanted a lynch or not."

[chauchaudotcom]

Mod; can we prod Smash? I believe it's been 3 days

[chauchaudotcom]

That post feels right. I don't like that.

Then why aren't you unvoting?

I prefer to bring something new and different, so the

town is not tunneling on just one or two players.

Are we reading the same game? Town has looked at rz -> smash -> water -> nobody -> smash -> now going back to nobody.

So, I can either just follow everyone else, place a vote on one of the two BWs by repeating what others have said in my own words, or I can look elsewhere, where I believe I'm more likely to find scum.

Which is fine. But still doesn't explain why you felt the need to thoroughly explain why you didn't want to join the rz or smash wagon . You could've easily switched votes indicating spy cleared some of your doubts, without going into the whole D1 lynch skepticism. You just seemed too defensive for something no one had questioned.

[chauchaudotcom]

bleh.

So, I'm going to conclude that there is at least one scum on the wagon:

smashbro_of_the_SSS(6): Sucrose, chauchaudotcom, jbernier93, Dragonfly13, SpyreX, Deer

Knowing my stance, the possibilities are:

Sucrose, jb, Dragon, Spy and Deer

Which doesn't help because...

Spy replaced in, Sucrose and Deer tunneled all day, Jb is all over the place and Dragon is...well, yea.

At the moment, Deer is my top.

Vote: Deer

You were on rz all game and your switch from dragon to smash was extremely abrupt. ISO 23 makes it seem as if you're leaning towards dragon being scum still, yet in ISO 24 you suddenly proclaim him swayed from scum spot. Given how hard you were on rz all game I just found it odd how easily you switched over when given the chance to hammer.

Sucrose would probably be my next bet. Because he's in the background so much. He's questioned smash once and water_foul once. But other then that he stayed on smash all day and hasn't done any active scum hunting.

[chauchaudotcom]

JB - Thoughts on Sucrose?

After some re-reading, my main suspect right now is Peanut Man. And this is going to sound a little strange, but he's actually my main suspect because of the way he avoided the SSSS wagon. I think it's weird that peanut didn't say anything about SSSS or Rzhang's play, only that he thought they weren't likely to be scum because they were the main targets D1.

Seeing how I discussed this way earlier and accused peanut of it way before, why didn't you comment on it back then?

Also, I want to hear your case on dragon.

So peanut, rather then discussing your deep dislike of D1 wagons. Did anyone else rouse your suspicions after a re-read?

[chauchaudotcom]

Deer, who're your top suspects at the moment?

[chauchaudotcom]

Peanutman - what's your view on Te?

[chauchaudotcom]

Deer's been consistently active in other games but not in this one, even though I purposely directed a question to test this. Thus I conclude he is active lurking and my vote stays.

NS's latest post is...........







......yea.

I'd like to hear his answer to people's questions first.

[chauchaudotcom]

Sucrose - What is your current view on deer?

Also, I believe someone asked for a post count check thingie mabober. I counted RVS talk/questioning or whatever as out game (b4 the gambit/serious votes).

D1 Activity

Water/Spy - 9/9
2 out game
1 mod question
6/9 in game

FA/Peanut - 39
10 out game
2 apologies/promises to post
27/6 in game

RZ/DF - 22/6
2/2 out game
20/4 in game

Deer - 25
2 out game
23 in game

JB - 27
3 out game
24 in game

NS - 12
4 out game
3 apologies/promises to post later
1 love for Spy
4 in game

Sucrose - 17
5 out game
2 technical
10 in game

Te - 16
1 out game
1 prod request
14 in game

D2 Activity

Spy - 5
1 v/la notice
4 in game

Peanut - 4
4 in game

Dragonfly - 2
2 in game

Deer - 1
1 in game

JB - 3
3 in game

NS - 4
1 Apologies/Promises to post later
1 out game
2 in game

Sucrose - 5
1 out game
4 in game

Te - 0

[chauchaudotcom]

I'm trying to be as active as I can be

Being active is one thing. Actually trying to scum hunt when active is another thing.

I can't appear Town if my life depended on it, which in Mafia it sorta does, so ... yeah.)

No one is asking you to appear town. Everyone is asking you to actually

do

something. If you are town then you are not doing town any favors by lurking and contributing absolutely nothing of use. And a 'gut' feeling case against JB would not count as good contribution in my book.

@ChauChau: Do you agree with SpyreX's top three list?

I'm curious as to why you chose to direct this question to me?

Are you suggesting that Spy and I are scum buddies? Or are you trying to get answers/replies out of me so that you can parrot my response?

I'm curious as to why you chose not to post your thoughts on Spy's accusations in your post but immediately jumped to ask another person their opinion on the matter.

As for my answer, I agree with some parts but not all. But I think I've made it clear that I think Deer is scum.

Well, everyone: do you agree with that, or maybe we could all post our top two scummiest?

Isn't that what we've been doing from the beginning of the day?

[chauchaudotcom]

Just as a side note, I see that I was asked pointedly why I asked someone else what they thought of SpyreX's scumlist, but no one said anything when Dragonfly asked jbernier93 the very same question. Simply an observation.

Don't worry, I noted it. I just wanted to know your answer first w/o outside influences.

Also, why am I the only one you seem to have a read on? Everyone else you merely state their posting habits and stuff that we could easily note ourselves. Someone's being rather noncommittal.

QUESTIONS FOR NS.

What led you to think dragon has good posting, particularly given you commented on him parroting? How did you feel about his predecessor?

You said peanut posts a lot and directs it at you. Is his tunneling of you suspicious?

What posts lead you to think that Sucrose's thoughts are unoriginal and purely parroting? Can you give examples please?

You criticize Te for being absent day 2 yet Deer has only posted once day 2. Why is it that you seem to think Deer's posts are strong yet Te's are not? (Te posted a lot D1 mind you).

Also, do you have a case on anyone OTHER then gut? Given that we're fifteen pages in it's hard to believe that the only thing you've got going out of everything is gut feeling.

[chauchaudotcom]

Its also not telling, in and of itself, that most everyone shrugged it off - except for chau.

It's not my fault I have no life.

[chauchaudotcom]

Mod: Please prod Sucrose. Thank you.

=O! IT'S NIKASCUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You're making a leap. The important part of what I said was if he was avoiding this game. Which, based on the fact he's dropped isn't the case.

I call pure BS on this. I know for a fact that Deer was online AFTER he was prodded. Meaning even if he chose not to pick up the pm, he definitely saw it there. Unfortunately I can't label that as scum or town play since replacing out is null. But it does piss me off. This ongoing replacing out when under pressure trend is mad frustrating. Seriously people. If you are town, then I grr in your direction.

On a related note, Spy and chau have been mentioning each other a bit recently, which is forcing me to consider a possibility of a connection between them.

Is it my fault he's the only one actually doing something? Plus it's funny you mentioned this since I'm the one who first introduced the possibility of a spy-chau scum team.

If I do decide to look into their posts and their interactions with each other (and also chau-wf), I'll let you know.

If you're suspicious of us? Why wouldn't you? (look into it that is)

I am agreeing with chau's view on his change from rz/me to SSSS at the last moment.

Why agree now? And not before? ..you know....when I actually said it?

JB - What are your thoughts on NS's recent revelation on each player??

[chauchaudotcom]

I was feeling a lot better about Dragonfly up until post #367

What's off about his post 367? This isn't exactly a new accusation against Dragon. I believe he talked about this D1 as well. Why bring it up now instead of before?

Also, how do you feel about Peanut's latest actions? Given that you are pretty suspicious of him I'm surprised you haven't commented on any of Peanut's d2 activity. Seems like you just threw out a suspect just to have a suspect that wasn't

[chauchaudotcom]

Deer.*

[chauchaudotcom]

L-2 is acceptable but L-1 isn't?

At that point in time? Yes.

Who did Deer tunnel all day? And Spyrex and Dragonfly get a pass because they're replacements? I don't understand.

RZ. Even while waiting for replacements the only one Deer ever showed remote interest in was RZ.

And don't misrep what I wrote. I never gave Spy or Dragon a pass. Since they were replacements their actions were a lot less, and much harder, to read. The point of my statement was to illustrate how frustratingly suspicious

everyone

has been.

I can empathize, but that's a tough standard to adhere to. Deer has not been the only player to replace out while posting in other threads (fallen, rzhang, wf).

Hence I said the act of replacing out was null. But the reasons I was suspicious of him before still stands. Based off his inconsistent views, his tunneling, wagon and post analysis, his lack of activity d2, I've concluded there's a strong probability he's scum, replaced out or not.

What's your grounds for your town read on Sucrose?

What makes wf/Spyrex more suspicious to me is the fact that he's being largely ignored.

How does this make

him

more suspicious if people choose not to be suspicious of him? I don't see that as a scumtell. If no one's questioning him, question his actions yourself like Peanut. If that were in fact a legit scumtell then the scummiest person should be me.

NS and rzhang surely shouldn't have won awards for being the most townie, but you'd be hard pressed to tell me they deserved to be voted over wf. The town can correct it's mistake by voting the scum (or one of the scum) on the SSSS wagon yesterday: Spyrex.

No. Deer deserves it over all of them.

Nikanor is scum in my book because of the big contradiction chau caught Te on in relation to the SSSS wagon, but I'm willing to hear what Nikanor has to say as she enters the game.

If nika is pretty much caught scum to you why are you voting spy?

[chauchaudotcom]

First off. I hate you all. I am as good as dead tonight. Damn lists.

That's a rhetorical question, correct?

Yep.

I get wary when people introduce a possibility of a someoneelse-them scum team, because if it's true, it makes it more far-fetched and it feels like a possible bus.

I'm not bussing spy. I'm buddying =D!

May I ask why?

L-1 means that you're pretty much ready to lynch them, that you're willing to put them in a situation where they could potentially be quick lynched by other scum and end the day. I was still in the process of getting reads on other people so I wasn't quite ready to make such a commitment.

I'll be the first one to say that Deer didn't comment enough about the game and the majority of the players as a whole, but it's unfair to classify him as "only having a remote interest in rzhang", when that was clearly not the case. His top suspect was rzhang, but he rightfully pressured NS and SSSS to explain themselves at multiple points in the game.

Fair enough. I'm beginning to think I may be tunneling Deer a bit.

So you would say Spyrex and Dragonfly are frustratingly suspicious?

At the point when I made that statement I was suspicious of Spy (because of wf) but had a null-town read on Dragon (because of rz). Now, since time has passed, I get a town read from Spy from his posts. He's posts may be shorter and full of sarcasm but he does present good content and seems to be scum-hunting. I believed RZ was town and genuine in his posts during the d1 fiasco. And since Dragon + RZ have the same role, I put Dragon in my town bucket.

My main point though is that wf not being pressured seems artifical rather than he was just honestly overlooked by the town.

How do you pressure someone who has disappeared? That's essentially a waste of time. And I do believe at that time I was asking wf questions (along w/ others) and fingers were being pointed in his direction. Would you not call that an attempt to pressure? But since wf didn't exactly come back to comment on anything it's rather difficult to pursue any further until replacement right?

Deer is more scummy than NS or rzhang? Back this up.

You can look at my reasoning for my vote on Deer, I think I made it pretty clear. His was pretty set on rz all day but his switch to SSSS was too convenient and too abrupt. But his complete avoidance of this game d2 is what threw me over the most.

As for rz, I felt he was frustrated town from the beginning. And NS? Honestly. He's just too absurd for me to believe he's scum. ESPECIALLY his case on JB. JB = scum because of gut? Really? Scum have all night and all day to think about cases to push d2. Plus they get the added bonus of discussing with their buddy (or buddies) =/ To fall back on jb being scum because of gut? It's just too obvious of a fail.

However, I'll admit his last post (w/ all the reads on people) really made me facepalm. But I was waiting on his response to all my questions first. (He better not flake else I'm going to rage!!!)

Also, a heads up for people. I have a lot of studying/essays to do this weekend so I may be a bit busy.

Mod: When's the deadline?

[chauchaudotcom]

Okay. Assuming the deadline is the 29th, we have three days people. I'd like to avoid a no lynch.

Mod: Can we please get a mass prod? For deadline sake? (mainly NS and peanut)

[chauchaudotcom]

I change my mind. We should lynch NS today.

Unvote; Vote: Nobody Special

[chauchaudotcom]

Mod: Can we prod Peanut please?

Already happened

Sucrose! Answer my question, dammit!

Patience young grasshopper.

[chauchaudotcom]

As much as I dislike NS, the speed at which the wagon grew concerns me.

Especially JB's change of heart. What happened to your Dragonfly suspicions JB?

P.S.

NS is L-1.

If anyone quick lynches him before he gets back to claim I will keel you!

[chauchaudotcom]

Actually. I don't trust you lot. So..

Unvote

[chauchaudotcom]

Hey, I've been here longer than you. >_>

JB - You missed my question:

What happened to your Dragonfly suspicions JB?

[chauchaudotcom]

ALSO!I love how DChau fails to capitalize my name, but capitalizes her own and jb's, neither of which actually start with capital letters.

Aw, you're jealous. How cute. !

Everything I do is serious.

Right. So How's that catch up going?

It may look like a sudden change of heart, but you'll note that I found NS scummy yesterday too.

Seeing how you voted like half the players yesterday and was on every possible wagon, that's not exactly a solid defense to me.

Additionally, I would like to reiterate that I, if wrong, handed the scum a real strong position tomorrow... and only got the tiniest of nibbles.

As much as I'd love to jump the wagon, this is some fine tuned wifom.

In any case. I have midterms/a ridiculous load of essays to do. Also, I will be gone all weekend (Friday to Sunday) so an official

V/LA till Sun

. I'll probably still be able to post from now till Friday but yea, just a warning ahead of time.

[chauchaudotcom]

Bah. Reasoning is tech.

Vote: Nobody Special

cuz he's back.

[chauchaudotcom]

What does this mean? I've heard it before.

It means give a reasoning with your vote or die. Something I shamelessly stole from Frost.

Players who subjectively were "nothing" posters in D1 (I still don't like this word, because I know NS and Deer both, although not frequent posters, were making posts at the end of D1), or by objectively looking to which players were a part of the SSSS wagon, coupled with that subjective analysis of their specific play.

Are you seriously arguing that NS actually contributed something day 1?

It's a valid point, statistically. You've got a group of 3 and a group of 6. As we're both part of that group of six, it necessarily lends itself to be more advantageous to look to it a bit more, as opposed to the group of 3, which, to top it off, was much more disorganized to begin with.

Yes but that's true of most d1 wagons. To argue that scum purposely nked a player simply be cause they were off the wagon to is going into a load of wifom that will ultimately come to a null tell. Whether or not fitz was on the wagon, he was a good choice for an nk.

Red, to be clear, is your whole case against Spy based mainly off wf's actions right?

[chauchaudotcom]

Ugh. This seems so backwards to me. You, Spyrex, and chau all think this then? That the SSSS wagon was this pure bastion of townies. Surely no one had any untoward motivations for lynching SSSS, and surely no one took advantage of his poor posts to get a townie lynch to go through.

Uh. What? I thought we all agreed that it was a 1-1 split. Meaning there is probably one scum on the wagon and one off it.

The opposite of avoiding the wagon is attaching yourself to it, Spyrex.

Unvote; vote: SpyreX

What? v_v zomg. How does this make him scum? I actually think you're reading far too much into his wording because his overall stance on the wagon split has been pretty damn clear from the beginning.

For the record I think this whole debate is pointless and going in circles.

This. It does not help us catch scum. AT ALL.

Vote: Sociopath

asflkajsflks words cannot express my feelings right now. v_v.........


DAMMIT WHERE IS EVERYONE?!

[chauchaudotcom]

I don't buy the idea that there is a 1:1 split, and I don't know where that idea came from. I've been clear from the getgo that I don't buy onto that. I think the town should assume there are three scum and play it like that. I always try to come at mafia games from a worst case scenario point of view.

If I assume that, then I would say there are two scum between Spyrex, Dragonfly, jbern, and Sucrose.

Yes, and it has been clear from the get go that we (the three you were talking about) do believe this. You were claiming that we believed there was no scum on the wagon, which is not the case. We simply disagree with your stance that there is no split.

As for the 1:1 split all it meant was that there is at least one scum who always tries to stay off the wagon. Even if it's a 1:2 split or a 2:1 split the main concept is that it is highly likely at the least one scum is on the wagon and one scum is off the wagon.

Be honest. You don't see a contradiction in what he just said?

Scumhunting 101. Contradictions do not equate scummy. That being said, I don't see it as a contradiction because you have to take into the account the context in which those statements were made.

The first was made when addressing the question of there being more then one scum on the wagon. The second was made when addressing the question of there being no scum on one wagon. In BOTH statements he maintains the consistency of claiming that there is at least ONE scum on the wagon (aka a split).

What I gather is the buildup of confirmation bias, on both sides, from this argument.

[chauchaudotcom]

Chau, thoughts on Sociopath's weird behavior?

Bleh. Just bleh.

In any case since there aren't many options, I'll bite:

Unvote; Vote: JB

[chauchaudotcom]

.....hm......................

[chauchaudotcom]

If spy comes back we could always lynch NS. Which is a better lynch anyway.

[chauchaudotcom]

Dude. I'd go for an NS lynch anytime.

[chauchaudotcom]

Tonight at 11:59pm

So in....seven hours?

[chauchaudotcom]

Nice turn of events.

[chauchaudotcom]

claim mofo or I hammer now.

[chauchaudotcom]

not that it matters because I think we've caught scum.

[chauchaudotcom]

I think we should mass claim. Yes? Yes. Let's do it.

[chauchaudotcom]

So that scum can't fakeclaim in lylo. duh.

[chauchaudotcom]

In any case, my top atm is dragon. I put him in the 'townie' category mostly because I felt rz wasn't scum so I didn't really look at him all game. But with NS's flip I think dragon may actually be his buddy.

[chauchaudotcom]

OH SHIT WAIT. I just noticed RC was scum. Scratch my dragon read. I gotta re-read RC/Deer too.

[chauchaudotcom]

Okay, so given that there was a point when both deer and ns were on dragon's wagon I don't buy that he's scum. Both scum bussing their third buddy that early on just doesn't seem likely to me...but of course I may be wrong. *sigh* I need to go back and look at voting patterns and all that jazz.

[chauchaudotcom]

Why a JB claim and not a mass claim? I think if you guys are gonna push JB to claim, everyone else should claim too. Especially since I have yet to see a good reason for the JB push.

[chauchaudotcom]

mod: I believe as a mod you're not supposed to comment, whether the person is here or not. =x...just saying...

I am. Because you're all acting like he's here and he hasn't been here for quite some time. People are physically still trying to talk to him. Its one thing before I said I'm finding a replacement, but talking to him afterward is just silly.

[chauchaudotcom]

Actually. I'm leaning more towards a Nika scum at this point. I'd prefer to get a claim out of him. But. I guess we should probably wait any how. Boo.

[chauchaudotcom]

You just gotta give them an incentive. Something like..

"Join and we'll lynch Nika...for FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!"

[chauchaudotcom]

On a more serious note.

Nika, what happened to your Sucrose suspicion?

[chauchaudotcom]

He claimed. Explain yourself Nika, particularly the switch from Sucrose.

[chauchaudotcom]

Right. So next.

Sucrose claim.

This is fun.

[chauchaudotcom]

Why didn't you continue exploring your suspicions of DF after d1?

[chauchaudotcom]

Also, you killed RC during the night but had no suspicion of him D1. Why didn't you kill JB during the night?

[chauchaudotcom]

I meant D2 x_x

[chauchaudotcom]

Actually, these claims are doing town good. So next:

Ythan. Claim! Do it!

[chauchaudotcom]

I feel like a little kid. Refreshing this page every few minutes hoping my super telekinetic waves of awesomeness will reach Ythan so he'll come online and claim.

[chauchaudotcom]

answer:

It is time.

Three claims are out already. We must finish the cycle to prevent remaining from fake claiming.

[chauchaudotcom]

Vote: Ythan

If you are town claim so we can stop wasting time and kick some scum ass.

[chauchaudotcom]

1. significantly decrease scum success for fakeclaim
2. significantly decrease scum success for fake counter claim
3. give us precisely the information we need to catch the last scum by comparing claims and using information from PR roles

[chauchaudotcom]

aka it will hand us scum on a platter

[chauchaudotcom]

Unvote

That's a VT claim right?

[chauchaudotcom]

You

[chauchaudotcom]

Ah sorry. If you told me instead of asked I would've. This is my first mass claim so I don't know the norm.

Alright. So. I am a Cop. I am pretty sure I am a Sane cop as well.

My investigations:
N1 - Spy (innocent)
N2 - JB (innocent)

Now, given that we have a goon and a role blocker flip, I highly doubt the existence of a godfather or a fourth scum. Thus, Spy and JB are clear.

So we have Nika, Sucrose and Ythan.

Sucrose is claimed vig with no counter claim.

I don't think Ythan was scum because both NS and Deer were on his wagon at the same time D1. Which would have been some brilliant ploy but at the same time seems unlikely.

Which leaves me with Nikanor as the scum.

What we should do is this:

Lynch Nika.
Chau will be NKed
Sucrose Kills Ythan (just in case)

and town wins.

Even if they kill Sucrose I get an investigation so town wins either way.

Vote: Nikanor

[chauchaudotcom]

Are cop and vig our only town PR claims?

I believe so.

I wanted to ASK because I wanted to see your response Wink

I figured as much. But dully noted for my next mass claim. =]

[chauchaudotcom]

Agreed! Well done Sucrose!

I'm glad town pulled through despite all the replacements.

Gosh I feel so giddy right now.

[chauchaudotcom]

I wish I was that awesome. One day though...one day.

[chauchaudotcom]

If you jailed me I wouldn't have gotten any results.

[chauchaudotcom]

Sorry Nika. Nice try. But no.

[chauchaudotcom]

The problem with your theory Nika is that if we go through it, it still won't prove you town. Because if you really are town I'll just be nked by scum. Even if you aren't town, you'd nk me anyway so we would be letting you slip through our fingers.

[chauchaudotcom]

Ah my bad. I'm getting all confused now.

So how often (in games in general) do roleblocks go through even if that person is killed the same night? Because I thought when you get killed your actions for the night don't usually go through.

[chauchaudotcom]

Hm..

Lynch Spy
Shoot Wolf
investigate Nika
Nika 'jails'
Ythan chills out

Sucrose will probably die but his kill should go through so...

If everyone flips town but I am blocked, we lynch Ythan. If I'm not blocked then we lynch Nika.

Hm. Can anyone found a way for a scum Nika to survive this scenario?

[chauchaudotcom]

I can see that vig + cop is a pretty strong town so I can see your point. That does seem more probable then a godfather existing. I'm not sure though. I'm rather new to game balancing so I honestly have no idea. *useless*

Perhaps the best bet is just to lynch Nika and if he doesn't flip scum then shoot spy and work out scum like we usually do during lylo.

[chauchaudotcom]

Wait, isn't wolf the other one you have an innocent on?

Yea but I was thinking if there is a God father my reads are useless.

The only thing that gives me pause and also what makes me so absolutely angry is I don't see how this is going to give you a scum win. At all. Which makes me think you are town and makes me even more irritated.

Well, he could win based off the fact that even if he confirms jailer, we can't confirm his alignment.

I still think the best bet is to lynch Nika. If he's not lying, we lose our jailer but at least if we are forced into lylo there is a LOT less confusion then it would be with Nika living.

We need to lynch Nika and have Sucrose should shoot based off what Nika flips.

[chauchaudotcom]

A Nika lynch would bring the following IF Nika really is telling the truth:

lylo w/
either me or sucrose
2 unconfirmed VT claims

which is a 50-50 split chance between the last two at being the GF. If Nika were alive, it would throw in the whole 'what alignment he is' into the mix and make things a lot more confusing (which I shouldn't have to point out is BAD for town). I mean, look at the mess it's created now, do you REALLY want that to happen in lylo? No. At least if he's dead we can go back and analyze the two VT claims on an individual basis.

[chauchaudotcom]

I don't think there is SK this scenario.

It'd be..

Cop vs "goon + roleblocker + something else" vs SK

or

"Cop + JK" vs "goon + roleblock + something else" vs SK

Sucrose being SK just doesn't compute either way.

[chauchaudotcom]

You have no idea how annoying it is when you try to use balance to show that Sucrose is town, but ignore the obvious flaw in a setup with two mafia roleblockers and only two town power roles.

v_v I'm sorry. I already said I'm bad at this. alsfasfjalskfjasl;

In any case,

Unvote; Vote: Ythan

[chauchaudotcom]

Hm...did they leave sucrose alive to cause confusion? Interesting...

let's lynch wolf and shoot spy. Yes?

[chauchaudotcom]

By not submitting a night kill, they've thrown in possible wifom for my role so the rest of town will be unsure of whether or not my cop claim is true. That's the only real way I can see this working out for scum.

[chauchaudotcom]

^ I thought the plan changed to:

Look, okay.
We lynch Ythan today.
Sucrose can shoot me.
I'll jail chau to keep her alive. If Ythan isn't scum, it means that there is a godfather in the game and that her inpects are useless anyway. I don't want to keep Sucrose alive because there's still the possibility of her being an SK.

For the more experienced players, how likely is a Godfather going to be both investigation immune and bulletproof at the same time?

[chauchaudotcom]

Let's get this done then.

Vote: No Lynch

[chauchaudotcom]

Aghhh! I figured when I died you guys would examine the possibility of an SK existing.

This game has taught me.........that I suck hard at mafia. v_v *sigh*

[chauchaudotcom]

P.S. gg Sucrose. =]

[chauchaudotcom]

Mmm I think my biggest issue is just considering all role possibilities and balancing. On the bright side I learned a lot from this game. Like I should actually consider the possibility of a SK existing when someone mentions it. v.v!

I always thought flavor was supposed to be separate from the actual game roles so I never read it. I just look at who get is killed and what their role was.

Also skye, the only thing I'd ask for next time you mod is more vote counts please!

Personally I wouldn't have claimed Vig. But whatever, it worked.

What would you have claimed?