Mini 930:Morning People Mafia (Game Over!)

[SpyreX]

Chau illustrates the true problem:

NS, Deer, TeWicah.

If there isn't at least A scum in that set we are going to lose. Period.

Personally, with the way things are going though I'm betting on not just one, but TWO in that grouping.

The only question is which one is town.

If Deer is avoiding this game (give a bit of proof) he goes first.

[Nobody Special]

As far as jbernier93 is concerned, it's just subtle things that've caught my attention between this game and other games; nothing I can really put my finger on and explicate here, so, as far as a scumtell goes, not any more useful than a 'gut feeling.' Just a thing or two that caught my eye.

Also, I'm not V/LA; not sure where that came from. I'm trying to be as active as I can be, and not all

bizarre!!!

like you guys seem to think I am. (Honestly, if you've played any games with me before, you'll know: I can't appear Town if my life depended on it, which in Mafia it sorta does, so ... yeah.)

@ChauChau: Do you agree with SpyreX's top three list?

Well, everyone: do you agree with that, or maybe we could all post our top two scummiest? I need to glance back at a few notes, then I can post my Top Two.

[jbernier93]

As far as jbernier93 is concerned, it's just subtle things that've caught my attention between this game and other games; nothing I can really put my finger on and explicate here, so, as far as a scumtell goes, not any more useful than a 'gut feeling.' Just a thing or two that caught my eye.

[/quote]
Well, care to share what that thing or two is?
And care to answer my questions I asked you, like how weird ideas and being humorous are scumtells?

[SpyreX]

It may be time for a round of mass prods up in here.

[Dragonfly13]

JB, what do you think of SpyreX's scum-group? Do you think there's at least one scum in that group? I agree there are people here who need to post more... and also more intelligently. As someone has probably already said - not ALL of you can be scum (there are others who are anti-town (at least by lurking, if nothing else) not on Spy's list) - so you guys who are townies start contributing more, mmkay?

[Nobody Special]

As far as jbernier93 is concerned, it's just subtle things that've caught my attention between this game and other games; nothing I can really put my finger on and explicate here, so, as far as a scumtell goes, not any more useful than a 'gut feeling.' Just a thing or two that caught my eye.

Well, care to share what that thing or two is?
And care to answer my questions I asked you, like how weird ideas and being humorous are scumtells?

No, and "weird ideas" and "being humorous"

in and of themselves

are not scumtells. It's essentially a gut feeling. Deal.

[SpyreX]

NS:

Give a line or two on every player in this game.

[chauchaudotcom]

I'm trying to be as active as I can be

Being active is one thing. Actually trying to scum hunt when active is another thing.

I can't appear Town if my life depended on it, which in Mafia it sorta does, so ... yeah.)

No one is asking you to appear town. Everyone is asking you to actually

do

something. If you are town then you are not doing town any favors by lurking and contributing absolutely nothing of use. And a 'gut' feeling case against JB would not count as good contribution in my book.

@ChauChau: Do you agree with SpyreX's top three list?

I'm curious as to why you chose to direct this question to me?

Are you suggesting that Spy and I are scum buddies? Or are you trying to get answers/replies out of me so that you can parrot my response?

I'm curious as to why you chose not to post your thoughts on Spy's accusations in your post but immediately jumped to ask another person their opinion on the matter.

As for my answer, I agree with some parts but not all. But I think I've made it clear that I think Deer is scum.

Well, everyone: do you agree with that, or maybe we could all post our top two scummiest?

Isn't that what we've been doing from the beginning of the day?

[Nobody Special]

@ChauChau: Do you agree with SpyreX's top three list?

I'm curious as to why you chose to direct this question to me?

I directed this question to you because SpyreX seemed to have taken his list directly from your post 349.

Chau illustrates the true problem:

NS, Deer, TeWicah.

If there isn't at least A scum in that set we are going to lose. Period.

Are you suggesting that Spy and I are scum buddies? Or are you trying to get answers/replies out of me so that you can parrot my response?

Neither.

I'm curious as to why you chose not to post your thoughts on Spy's accusations in your post but immediately jumped to ask another person their opinion on the matter.

I have found that defending myself against accusations leads nowhere. Especially when they're flimsy and non-foundational such as SpyreX's are.


@SpyreX: It's coming. Give me half an hour or so.

[Nobody Special]

1)SpyreX(replaces water_foul) Has a great sense of humour coupled with a shoddy work ethic. Has asked at least twice for 'someone else' to do votecount analysis. Can you not do it yourself? If not, why not?

2)Nobody Special No self-commenting.

3)chauchaudotcom Strong town read. Asks lots of questions of many people (Note to Self: This is what I should aspire to.)

4)Dragonfly13(replaces rhzang86) Fairly good posting; although I'm not seeing much scumhunting, just a lot of analysis and regurgitating of current situations (yes, it's ironic that he feels I'm "regurgitating" stuff, too).

5)TeWuicah Not enough posting. Hasn't posted since March 10.

6)peanutman(replaces fallen angel) Seems to be posting a lot. Most of this posting, though, is aimed at me.

7)Sucrose Seems to be posting just enough to stay out of the spotlight. Also, much of her posting seems to not be much original thought (again with the parroting).

8)Deer Started out quite active, now seems to be gone. But when he does post, it's pretty good, I think, asking many good questions.

9)jbernier93 I've already made my non-case on this guy. It's not a case, like I said -- just a gut thing. I'm gonna let him slide for now and see if he slips.

Just as a side note, I see that I was asked pointedly why I asked someone

else

what they thought of SpyreX's scumlist, but no one said anything when Dragonfly asked jbernier93 the very same question. Simply an observation.

[Nobody Special]

Oh, my Top Two(tm):

jbernier93
Sucrose

[chauchaudotcom]

Just as a side note, I see that I was asked pointedly why I asked someone else what they thought of SpyreX's scumlist, but no one said anything when Dragonfly asked jbernier93 the very same question. Simply an observation.

Don't worry, I noted it. I just wanted to know your answer first w/o outside influences.

Also, why am I the only one you seem to have a read on? Everyone else you merely state their posting habits and stuff that we could easily note ourselves. Someone's being rather noncommittal.

QUESTIONS FOR NS.

What led you to think dragon has good posting, particularly given you commented on him parroting? How did you feel about his predecessor?

You said peanut posts a lot and directs it at you. Is his tunneling of you suspicious?

What posts lead you to think that Sucrose's thoughts are unoriginal and purely parroting? Can you give examples please?

You criticize Te for being absent day 2 yet Deer has only posted once day 2. Why is it that you seem to think Deer's posts are strong yet Te's are not? (Te posted a lot D1 mind you).

Also, do you have a case on anyone OTHER then gut? Given that we're fifteen pages in it's hard to believe that the only thing you've got going out of everything is gut feeling.

[SpyreX]

1)SpyreX(replaces water_foul) Has a great sense of humour coupled with a shoddy work ethic. Has asked at least twice for 'someone else' to do votecount analysis. Can you not do it yourself? If not, why not?

Woosh.

Yea, my work ethic is pretty bad. It wasn't that I was on vacation or anything like that.

Its also not telling, in and of itself, that most everyone shrugged it off - except for chau.

[chauchaudotcom]

Its also not telling, in and of itself, that most everyone shrugged it off - except for chau.

It's not my fault I have no life.

[SpyreX]

It's not even that. Its the total apathy.

Like I said, if all three of Deer, NS and TeWicah were by some kind of voodoo town this is a wash.

[peanutman]

@NS, you've said that you didn't understand why I was targeting you mainly. Well, even though you said that you aren't purposely ignoring my questions, most have still gone unanswered, unacknowledged. But I won't pursue them, at least not right now, to avoid getting tunnel fever, but will take it all into account.

---

Yeah, I'm leaning town on Spy right now, just from vibes, but water_foul was really scummy to me and I had just replaced in, so I was pretty literal and a bit blunt when he decided not to welcome me as politely as he could have.

If water_foul was really scummy to you, does the mere fact that his replacement is playing better make it wise for you to lean town on him. I mean, if water_foul was really scummy before, he should still be as scummy now. Seems odd you would now discredit (partially at least) a strong scum read.

Regarding your wagon-analys/rationale for SSSS being scum:

Okay, so that wasn't a very logical "argument," but it made sense at the time because I thought SSSS was scum. I was probably rambling at this point, and I was trying to step back and see whether SSSS was just playing really newbish or if he was actually scum. He didn't play very well. He had several contradicting statements, among other things I outlined in my TEXT post.

You say that you thought that SSSS was scum, hence your reasoning for the argument. However, your initial argument isn't that at all. If I can break it down, you say this :

There is one scummy player in my eyes who has a large wagon (SSSS)

Stating your top scum suspicion.

Large wagons are easy for scum to manipulate, so it seems rather awkward when scummy players have large wagons.

Stating that big wagons are generally on town because they are scum-engineered.

This is due to a fear of the "scummy" player being town-aligned, because scum would naturally hold off lynching scum-mates until it appears to be too late. So why has SSSS been voted so heavily?

Here, you either contradict yourself, or you're stretching to clear yourself. With your question, you seem to be insinuating that since there are so many votes on the SSSS wagon, it must be that he is being bussed.

My argument is that the other major wagon (rz/me) is more likely to have been manipulated by scum.

Finally, you're saying that with two relatively similar bandwagons, we should believe that yours is scum-manipulated, but that SSSS must have been partially bussed (the "voted so heavily" mention). Basically, this doesn't make any sense to me.
To cap it all off, you snap at NS for parroting (via quoting what I said) when he brought your wagon analysis. So, you indirectly acknowledge the inconsistency that was raised, but you don't address it whatsoever. No dodging it now though.

Unvote
Vote : Dragonfly

[sykedoc]

Deer and TeWuicah replacements are being found

[Dragonfly13]

Just as a side note, I see that I was asked pointedly why I asked someone

else

what they thought of SpyreX's scumlist, but no one said anything when Dragonfly asked jbernier93 the very same question. Simply an observation.

I'd like to know what everyone thinks of the list, actually. I just wanted to ask JB specifically because I've been getting some less-than-town vibes recently from him that have led me to question my general town read of him. To reiterate,
@everyone: What is your opinion of SpyreX's three named players? Do you think there's at least one scum in that group?

Chau illustrates the true problem:

NS, Deer, TeWicah.

If there isn't at least A scum in that set we are going to lose. Period.

Personally, with the way things are going though I'm betting on not just one, but TWO in that grouping.

The only question is which one is town.

If Deer is avoiding this game (give a bit of proof) he goes first.

You say you bet there are two scum in those three, and that Deer should go first. Should you then have switched your vote from NS to Deer? Can I take this to mean you think TW is town? What do you think of TW? Is there enough for you to have a read on him?

Deer and TW really need to post more. (Do I need to post more? Probably. Last week was midterms for me, but now I'm on spring break, and I'll have more time for mafia, so expect more from my end. Also I'm catching up on another game I replaced into and it's like 80-something pages, so yeah.) I've played in games where scum largely consist of lurkers, and I've played in games where scum largely consist of players who lead the town by the reins. This makes it difficult for me to determine which we have in this game, or whether we have some of one kind and some of the other. Or maybe I just suck at mafia. That's always a possibility.

If water_foul was really scummy to you, does the mere fact that his replacement is playing better make it wise for you to lean town on him. I mean, if water_foul was really scummy before, he should still be as scummy now. Seems odd you would now discredit (partially at least) a strong scum read.

I didn't mean I was leaning town on the

slot

, just on the player. Spy is lessening the severity of w_f's scum play, but don't get me wrong, I'm still keeping my eye on the slot and on the player. Water_foul probably

would

be as scummy now. But SpyreX is a different player with the same role. Do you feel you've played better than fallen angel, your predecessor? Because your posts are still getting a lot of attention from me, too, no matter

how

pro-town you play. I find it comforting that you have the balls to make a case on me, knowing that you were high on my scum list D1. I have had to look back at my reads of players on my initial couple of read-throughs that I did when I replaced in which helped me form my "scum-scale" that some people jumped on me for because I called myself "very town." Considering the fact that I believed SSSS and fitz to be scummy players, and also the fact that they have both flipped town, the confidence I have in my reads this game has diminished significantly. On a related note, Spy and chau have been mentioning each other a bit recently, which is forcing me to consider a possibility of a connection between them. As you know, I currently believe chau to be pro-town, and Spy, though a pro-town player in and of himself, replaced into a slot which I find to be rather scummy. So you can see how these things have thrown me off quite a bit. If I do decide to look into their posts and their interactions with each other (and also chau-wf), I'll let you know.

Here, you either contradict yourself, or you're stretching to clear yourself. With your question, you seem to be insinuating that since there are so many votes on the SSSS wagon, it must be that he is being bussed.

Why is it either A (a contradiction) or B (stretching to clear myself)? I can show you other possibilities. Why limit it to either or? This was a major problem I had with fitz, iirc. Something like "he's either confused townie or cornered scum." Why lump the possibilities into only two options? SSSS was not necessarily bussed, in this scenario where I believed SSSS to be scum before he flipped. SSSS could have been scum with an all-town wagon. I, however, felt it harder to believe

my

wagon had been formed by all town players. In fact, reading back over chauchau's post 357 and her previous one where she actually explains why she's voting Deer, perhaps this means Deer is scum. If my wagon had definitely been helped along by scum, as I believe, Deer's "well, I've been on rz all game, but dragonfly's swayed me off the slot" post sounds like scum to me. (I'm sure you can find these posts in chau's and Deer's ISOs, I'm just too lazy to do it for you right now.) Maybe Deer was just scared off by my huge catch-up post. Who knows? I think I want to hear more from Deer, because it's a possibility he was the scum on my wagon.

Vote: Deer

So, continuing my response to the quote, you say, "or you're stretching to clear yourself." I did not imply that SSSS "must be ... being bussed;" you inferred it. At the time, I was reasoning with myself that there were two possibilities: either SSSS was town, or he was scum. I believed quite a lot that he was scum. So, when I ask "So why has SSSS been voted so heavily?", I think I was intending to imply that the town was doing a good job, because he was definitely scum in my eyes (check my TEXT post for the reasons), and the fact that he hadn't been hammered yet meant that his scum-buddies didn't have the balls to off their partner. Knowing now that SSSS was town, there was definitely scum on one, if not both, of our wagons. That's probably obvious, but I'm just throwing it out there. Which leaves me with:

Vote Count:

Dragonfly13(4): Deer, havingfitz, Nobody Special, smashbro_of_the_SSSS
smashbro_of_the_SSS(4): Sucrose, chauchaudotcom, jbernier93, Dragonfly13
SpyreX(1): peanutman
Nobody Special(1): SpyreX

and

Vote Count:

Dragonfly13(3): havingfitz, Nobody Special, smashbro_of_the_SSSS,
smashbro_of_the_SSS(6): Sucrose, chauchaudotcom, jbernier93, Dragonfly13, SpyreX, Deer
Nobody Special(2): TeWuicah, peanutman

Which means the list that probably contains scum is:

havingfitz

, NS,

SSSS

, Sucrose, chauchau, jb,

myself

, SpyreX, and Deer. I believe TW was also on one or both of the lists at some point, so I'll add him in there as well. Please note that this doesn't mean the people not on this list are definitely not scum, just that I believe there is definitely at least one scum within this list. An odd thing to note is that neither fallen angel nor peanutman are on this list, and that is the only player not on the list, though iirc, fallen angel was voting rz at some point?

Well, because it is public knowledge that SSSS was town, I'll narrow the list to those who were on SSSS at the time of the lynch, plus TW, because he jumped on at some point, at chau's suggestion. Out of those six, not including myself, Deer and SpyreX (due to w_f's play) are those I'm rather suspicious of. Now you're probably wondering: "Why does Dragonfly narrow his list to those who were on SSSS when he previously said his

own

wagon was more likely to have been manipulated by scum?" Well, because I'm not confirmed town at this point, SSSS's wagon was more likely to have been manipulated by scum. Do you see what I'm saying? At the time, I was confirmed town and SSSS was not. I probably had a lapse there. Peanut, now that I think about it, "stretching to clear myself" could be an explanation for my thought process at the time, but only if you mean "...because I'm town and I'm a primary lynch target," and not "...because I'm scum and I'm a primary lynch target." Obviously you're voting me, so it's probably not the former, which is why you'll probably say I contradicted myself somewhere in the mass of text above. I was trying to justify why I'm town while at the same time reasoning why SSSS was scum, given the way he'd played and the things I'd previously pointed out about him.

Finally, you're saying that with two relatively similar bandwagons, we should believe that yours is scum-manipulated, but that SSSS must have been partially bussed (the "voted so heavily" mention). Basically, this doesn't make any sense to me.

See above ramble(s?) for why your inference was not my implication (re: "SSSS

must

have been partially bussed").

To cap it all off, you snap at NS for parroting (via quoting what I said) when he brought your wagon analysis. So, you indirectly acknowledge the inconsistency that was raised, but you don't address it whatsoever. No dodging it now though.

Ah, I see what you're saying now. It took me a little while, because I had already responded to

JB

(not you) re: the same thing NS was saying. NS was, in fact, parroting, because I had already responded to almost the exact thing he asked me to clarify. Well hopefully by now I've clarified it. The short answer is that I'm town and SSSS appeared to be scum at the time, and I was probably not thinking clearly because I had been typing too much.

My vote's on Deer. I don't care if he's being replaced, his slot is scummy. I am agreeing with chau's view on his change from rz/me to SSSS at the last moment. In hindsight, if Deer is scum, he would know that both of the wagons were on town, and because I had a rather lengthy post, I feel he was scared off my wagon because he began to think others may begin to believe me over SSSS.

I think my thought process during this post was rather wishy-washy, which I don't like, but I hope it's clearer now how my mind works, and why I think the way I do. As I said before, my confidence in reads has diminished, which may account for some of the wishy-washyness here. It's hard for me to explain things in general (I think that comes with being an engineer). I probably just suck at mafia. See my newbie game for why I think this.

[Dragonfly13]

Note to self: learn to be more concise.

[sykedoc]

RedCoyote replaces Deer

[RedCoyote]

I'll probably have a little time later to re-read.

I'll

unvote

in the meantime.

[SpyreX]

You say you bet there are two scum in those three, and that Deer should go first. Should you then have switched your vote from NS to Deer? Can I take this to mean you think TW is town? What do you think of TW? Is there enough for you to have a read on him?

You're making a leap. The important part of what I said was if he was avoiding this game. Which, based on the fact he's dropped isn't the case.

Of course, irritatingly enough, it looks like TW is pulling that stunt too so I don't know what the hell at the moment.

[sykedoc]

Nikanor replaces TeWuicah

[Nikanor]

Hi everybody! Stuff will probably be coming on days that are not today.

Its OK <3 lol

[jbernier93]

JB, what do you think of SpyreX's scum-group? Do you think there's at least one scum in that group?

NS, Deer, and Tewuicah? I think Deer/RedCoyote is scummy, NS is vaguely scummy but more just really bizzare and Te/Nikanor seems pretty townish to me... so yes I think there's at least one scum in the group.