Mini 889 - Shopping Frenzy (Over)

[Chinaman]

hope I didn't miss the random vote...

Vote: Everyone but me....any one of you could be scum...

Seriously though, I'm here and waiting for something interesting to happen...

[Chinaman]

D'oh.

Chinaman, why no random vote? You appear anxious to not miss the RVS, but then you don't participate in it.

I did randomvote...everyone I guess I could have posted a vote for everyone but me, but that would have gotten annoying. RVS is useless anyway.

As far as getting this game going, I could go for a no lynch or a lynching of Torqez. Doesn't matter to me much either way. If Torqez is town, chances are that we would lynch a townie D1 anyway, if he's scum, then all the better. If we no-lynch and scum don't get lucky and kill the Cop if there is one, then we have more info for D2.

On the other hand, I will say this reasoning given by Josh for lynching Torqez sucks ballsack. "Three posts, no content." It's page 2 man, your posts aren't exactly the epitome of quality and content. I'm not blaming you for that as it's page 2, but to call someone else out on it is pretty contradictory. What say you sir?!

[Chinaman]

As far as getting this game going, I could go for a no lynch or a lynching of Torqez. Doesn't matter to me much either way. If Torqez is town, chances are that we would lynch a townie D1 anyway, if he's scum, then all the better. If we no-lynch and scum don't get lucky and kill the Cop if there is one, then we have more info for D2.

Very nice. On the one hand you say you could go for a no lynch. Yet on the other hand, you agree with DDD that I should be lynched for agreeing to the same thing you said you'd agree to inherently, since a townie could be lynched anyway. I like the logic.

On the other hand, I will say this reasoning given by Josh for lynching Torqez sucks ballsack. "Three posts, no content." It's page 2 man, your posts aren't exactly the epitome of quality and content. I'm not blaming you for that as it's page 2, but to call someone else out on it is pretty contradictory. What say you sir?!

But wait, there's more! You say Josh is being contradictory, but yet again, you say you don't like his reasoning and then don't say anything about DDDs lame reason either? How's that for contradictory?

Unvote. Vote: Chinaman

Well, first off, let me go on the record for saying I hate D1 as it's usually a cluster-f***. That being said, I don't agree with or disagree with Triple-D. You said you were bored with the game, so either you come back and explain, like you did, or you really didn't care I and wouldn't care about losing you. Notice though, I did not vote you as I wanted to see your response.

I explained why I didn't mention Triple-D's reasoning. When I read his statement, it struck more as "if you don't care, then goodbye" rather than actually trying to come up with something that could be construed as scummy. JL's post on the other hand, did strike me that way. It wasn't that he didn't care one way or the other, but more so that he was trying to justify his vote on you which is why I called it out. Speaking of which, I would like you to respond when you return JL.

1. Has there been discussion of a no-lynch in any other games you've played on this site?

2. What benefit to the town is there of lynching a hypothetically-townie Torqez if we just blindly lynch him? Or of lynching a hypothetically-scum Torqez, for that matter?

1. No, not really.

2. None really, unless he was going to be a burden to town because he is "bored with MS" right now. He came back and was actively participatory, so I don't believe that is anymore the case right now. I don't mind getting rid of dead weight. If dead weight continues to be dead weight, it gives scum a nice chance to mislynch them later when they are closer to winning. Same reason I don't mind policy lynches on active or non-active lurkers early on. They don't contribute so they don't help town. They are an easy target for scum to go after as they hardly defend themselves. Plus, sometimes you get lucky as they are trying to hide in the shadows and we lynch scum by lynching lurkers. Anyway, hope that answered your questions.

[Chinaman]

I'm here.

As far as DDD being scum and trying to mislynch Torq, I find it hard to believe. I don't think scum-DDD would push that like he has this early playing scum. It's more of a town move IMHO.

As far as any scum-tells going on, I don't see anything from anyone at this point to make me cast a serious vote on anyone at this time to be honest.

If it was deadline and I had to vote someone on the other hand, it would prolly go to muh for p79. I would also like to point out that Sweep is a very close second for my vote. I say this because he random votes DDD then votes him for real again later on. I don't really agree with the lynch of Torq that DDD is pushing for, but I don't see scum-DDD pushing for that lynch so I'm inclined to think both as town. I would like to hear more from Sweep at this time and Muh on there votes for DDD and if they think scum-DDD would really push this hard for a mislynch as scum.

[Chinaman]

Hey Josh Lyman, I saw you /in for another game,

after the prod went out

. Hows about you play in the game you're already in first?

Wow, I didn't even know he was in this game. He is in another of my games and is as active in that game on the first page as he is here in 4 pages.

On the flip side of this coin, this game is pretty slow atm and I think it's JL's decision to play however many games he can handle. It's still early so null-tell atm. I would however, like this game to start to take off soon though. (darn weekends)

DDD - Is your full reasoning for wanting to lynch Torq due to him saying he was getting bored with Mafia in a post of his and then drawing the conclusion this means he is prob-scum because only scum would stay in a game when they are getting bored with Mafia during that time?

JL - Why are you voting Torq?

Sweep - What are your thoughts on recent discussion. Still happy with your DDD vote?

[Chinaman]

Paltry, and I say this since I'd rather let the JL play out before commenting on it, I think Chinaman's statement of "I don't think

scum-DDD

" indicates previously playing with a DDD before.
However, I would like to know that if you do have meta or previous experience, did his play then seem like it was toward his alignment's favor in hindsight? (Actively saving partners in his argument, casting doubt (chainsaw), remaining unattached or pursuing the lynch of his partners?)

If gut feeling what about his play initiated your gut read?

I do not remember playing with DDD before. My read is primarily gut on him. I would be getting more into WIFOM if I tried to explain it which I don't really have a problem doing. I just don't see scum going headlong full blast on someone this early in the game. It's too risky and from my experience scum, no matter how experienced, don't go that risky so early. Hell, I have seen townies lynched for less (I am often one of them) so yeah, that plays into my gut read on him.

He acknowledges a current problem that needs to be fixed, you're making excuses for ones that haven't even happened yet. Now if he doesn't address the problems then I will be all over him for the same reason as I am on you for merely doing enough to remain in the game. By preemptively justifying your behavior I can only assume you intend to follow through with it and thus I must respond appropriately.

Normally I wouldn't have a problem with this kind of logic, but I think taking what Torqez said and saying it's to fall back on is a huge stretch. Even if that was his plan, it's incredibly weak, no one would let a scummy action pass because the player claimed, "oh but look I was bored and even said so here."

This whole thing is stupid.

^This

So, now that we are obviously out of RVS, I have a few questions:

@Torque: Do you think your vote is a powerful tool and if so, do you think keeping track of it is important?

@PaltryExcuse: Same question to you as to Torque.

@Scotty B: Same question to you as to Torq and PE.

@Torqez: I get the sense you are letting DDD's pressure get to you a little bit. You seem rational in your defense, but why are you only defending at this point? The only vote on you is from DDD and it seems as though you have defended yourself well, but where is the pro-town behavior? Where are your questions that you need answered to pursue your scumhunt?

@Sweep:

I DDD's arguement to lynch Torqez is very weak and only consists of the fact that he did not post content on the first three posts.

I think that DDD is the most likely to be scum at this stage, So far he has been trying to get Torqes lynched but with no reasoning as stated above.

Care to elaborate? Where exactly did you find DDD's argument that he was voting Torq due to his lack of content in the first 3 posts? Where do you think this game is headed? If you had to lynch someone and deadline was tomorrow, who would you push for?

@Josh L: You start your last post looking as though you were going to get behind a Torque lynch, yet in the same post, you switch it around and Vote eleven after asking him a question. I would like you to explain why you voted eleven in this instance. What does voting him accomplish at this point? Basically, the same question I had for Torq and others above. Also, if you just had a thought in the middle of a post, why not erase the thought before it? What was your strategy in posting one thought but casting your vote on another thought (which is a question you didn't wait to be answered)?

JVW: Just saw your last post. Same question to you as to Torque and others above. If you do think it's a powerful tool, do you think casting it out just to see what happens weakens the threat behind your vote?

I think that's all the questions I have. I pretty much think the rest of you have explained yourselves in your actions thus far (for me at least).

[Chinaman]

Alright, this DDD vs Torq thing is getting a little....silly. I personally don't feel DDD is justified in his vote on Torq, but I honestly see him as catching onto something small in the RVS, jumping on it (thus breaking us out of RVS), and not being able to let it go. I don't see this as a scum move but more of a town move. The more and more it goes on, the more of a tunneling town he has become (in my eyes). I say this because it is very obvious at this point that NOBODY is being swayed by DDD's case on Torq yet he is still pushing the issue. Where is the motivation for that if he's scum?

[Chinaman]

@Chinaman: Please explain to me what good a tool is if it isn't used. Also, can you tell me what events would have to fall into place in order for you to cast a vote?

Also, please tell me your thoughts on RVS and potential reasons for avoiding same.

I personally believe that tossing a vote around makes it less effective as when you vote someone and put pressure on them, then vote someone else not long after, it reduces the meaning of the vote and the pressure you wish to apply. I say this because if someone has voted for 3 people, then finds something I say to be worth a vote and then they vote me, I'm not as worried because that vote is probably coming off me and going onto someone else in the near future. I'm not saying voting is scummy or even voting lots of people on the same day is scummy, I'm just saying it reduces it's effectiveness. I will vote for someone when I think they are scum.

As for RVS, I think it's stupid. It's a necessary evil if you will. I posted a post during it random voting everyone (which you can't really do) because in my eyes, it doesn't matter who you vote for in RVS. That's just me.

As for your vote on eleven:

Wait. Just had a thought.

eleven,

why are defending Torq so vehemently?

vote: eleven

You have a thought, ask eleven why he is defending Torq and then vote him. It just seemed like you don't really care if he answer it or not. This is coming from my above belief about voting mind you, so I am just wondering if you want him to answer you question and if so, was this a pressure vote to make him answer? Do you believe eleven is scum?

[Chinaman]

@Torque: Do you think your vote is a powerful tool and if so, do you think keeping track of it is important?

I don't get your question? Ofcourse voting is a powerful tool, and ofcourse keeping track of it is important.

@Torqez: I get the sense you are letting DDD's pressure get to you a little bit. You seem rational in your defense, but why are you only defending at this point? The only vote on you is from DDD and it seems as though you have defended yourself well, but where is the pro-town behavior? Where are your questions that you need answered to pursue your scumhunt?

lol he's not getting to me in the least bit. I'm rational in my defense, because I have nothing to hide. I call it as I see it. He has an issue towards me, so thats what I post about. Just like others are thinking, there seems to be a lack of content this game (or people struggling to get out of RVS) and therefore little else to post about. Just take a look at JVWs post here for eg: This definitely looks odd and from a player who ICs in newbie games, I'd expect a lot more out of in the way of bringing others to talk and get the game going.

Well Torq, the reason I asked about your vote is because I think we are out of RVS yet you still have your vote on me. Is there nobody in this game who has done something scummy from your point of view? Were you keeping track of your vote? Do you have a reason to vote me at this time?

Also, if there is a lack of content, you are equally to blame for this. All you have done thus far is defended yourself from DDD and nothing else. Are you waiting for others to build cases and produce content?

I will also have to say that I agree with Scott's sentiments about you thus far. I think you have defended yourself from DDD, but have done little else in the way of hunting for scum.

Vote: Torquez

Though I don't buy the reason's put forth by DDD for his vote, I will say that scum tend to defend and jump on wagons where as town tend to defend and hunt for the real scum. As I have said before, you complain of a lack of content yet refuse to produce any yourself. This is a small scumtell IMO since scum-you doesn't want to be the person building a mislynch but instead want to be able to jump on a bandwagon of a mislynch hence your lack of hunting for scum and/or producing content.

[Chinaman]

Well Torq, the reason I asked about your vote is because I think we are out of RVS yet you still have your vote on me. Is there nobody in this game who has done something scummy from your point of view? Were you keeping track of your vote? Do you have a reason to vote me at this time?

Thats very convenient. Double standards on your part? Just like you state that you havn't found anyone to vote (prior to this post of yours) and don't like tossing around votes, I too don't vote anybody for no reason.

For this reason I havn't felt I needed to vote for someone (ie found them particularly scummy) nor have i felt a need to unvote off you.

Ironic that the same defense you use for not voting earlier, is the same reason you vote for me now.

Also ironic that you pin me for lack of contribution to the game, when theres been numerous others doing the same thing.

I will also have to say that I agree with Scott's sentiments about you thus far. I think you have defended yourself from DDD, but have done little else in the way of hunting for scum.
Vote: Torquez

How interesting that you'd stick me for no contribution, yet you're agreeing with a person without even reading them in ISO. Yes, Scott himself has had excellent contribution to this game.

And I find it quite stupid that through your own admittance you say that RVS is stupid, and me even saying that we're struggling to get out of it, yet you vote me for not 'scumhunting' out of it.

Love your logic.

Unvote

my RVS vote.

Vote: Chinaman

with reasons stated.

There, happy?

The reason I asked is so you would know where your vote is. It's usually polite to unvote when RVS ends if you don't have anyone to vote for scummy reasons. I personally think you just didn't know or care where it was until I pointed it out. Oh, and the difference is, I didn't have my vote on anyone till you where as you kept yours from RVS because...oh I know, you don't care who it's on as long as that person is town.

Also, if there is a lack of content, you are

equally

to blame for this

Show me how this quote is "pinning anything on you at all. What are you trying to do, strawman here?

Ok, your next point about Scott just sealed it for me. I personally think it's interesting that he has contributed more and scumhunted more in his short limited posts than you have done up until this OMGUS vote of yours! Where have you done anything at all to hunt for scum? I'm sure you think this post of yours is hunting for scum, but all it really is is OMGUS as stated before.

Before I comment on the last part of your post where you talk about RVS, I would like to know what page you saw us switch from RVS to Hunting for scum.

[Chinaman]

Don't be mean DDD.

Question for you all: Do you think that when someone replaces out, there role is more likely town or scum? Do you think a town PR or a scum role would more likely keep someone in the game even if they had RL stuff come up and couldn't post as often as they'd like? This may be a theory question, but in my experience, I've never seen a scum player replace out. My games are very limited compared to some, but I think the odds are in the favor of someone replacing out being town vs scum. No free passes to eleven's replacement, but.....

[Chinaman]

I actually did answer that question, but I put Wolfy's quote in before my answer to it. It's in p121. I thought that answer would have answered it even though I didn't quote your question as you and Wolfy basically asked the same thing.

As far as asking you about the vote, I asked because your vote on JVW was from RVS, but I see now you have explained why you have kept it there. Do you think JVW is the scummiest in the game thus far?

Also, do you think my points on Torq are invalid? I see you don't buy into DDD's, but you haven't mentioned your thoughts on mine.

[Chinaman]

well, this is british comedy...glad it made you laugh.

btw, your last post adds to those which include zero scum hunting.

[Chinaman]

Hey guys, I'm here but due to the X-mas holiday season, I'm absent a lot. Sorry about this and I will read up on this thread as soon as I can and post thoughts from last I posted.

[Chinaman]

Ok, D1 ended with a scum lynch, good. This game has officially peeked my interest. Will do a full re-read and post thoughts as I go knowing now JL is indeed scum.

[Chinaman]

Ok, D1 ended with a scum lynch, good. This game has officially peeked my interest.

So you weren't interested before? The D1 'slip' wasn't great, but this seems way less than pro-town.

Still

really

looking forward to that Brosius post.

Ok, wtf are you guys talking about a slip for? I'm at a loss here. And no, I wasn't really interested before. The game was slow and dry and I was happy with my vote on Torq.

DJ: What scum slip? Lack of response to what? And yes, I wasn't around end of day.

Try explaining your votes better, might get more followers with thought out logic.

[Chinaman]

Ok, I didn't respond to that 'slip' because it's so retarded I didn't feel the need to respond to it. Seriously, it's a matter of how people speak. Try saying it out loud with a sarcastic tone and you'll see how retarded it is to try and make it out to be something it's not.

Still going to go back and read through.

[Chinaman]

PE; a good point about Chinaman. I was going to comment about his activity and continual promising of a re-read, but I decided not to be mean over Christmas.

Well, thanks for not being mean over x-mas. New deadline is far after the new year and if I don't post something meaningful by the weekend I will ask to be replaced. I work crazy hours sat through wed so please bare with me. If you would prefer me to be replaced out now, then I will ask the Mod to do so, though I would prefer to stay.

[Chinaman]

And what makes that a good reason for voting me

You're not paying attention and you have no interest in actually scumhunting. Town would be paying attention and has a huge interest in scumhunting.

I also believe your not of any use to us either so is ABR and so is Chinaman. Why not vote all of them. Why not lynch them? If it was that simple nobody would ever sign up. There is no slips I've yet seen except for chinamans

Vote: Muh

because of this post. It's crap. First of all, there have been plenty of scummy things that have happened thus far. Secondly, I had thought it was pretty obvious that what was earlier thought of as a possible scum-slip from me was clarified thus bringing it up again to try and put doubt in about it again is scummy.

I would say that DJ is scummy as well even with the gift wrap of JL. Could be that he being JL's scum buddy decided to bus right off the bat. If muh flips scum, then I would say DJ is for sure town, but if muh flips town, I say DJ is scum due to me and muh (remember only if a town flip for muh) being on his list. I know I'm town and we will soon see a flip from muh, so if he flips town, that's 2 of the 3 players on his list that are town.

Anyway, L-1 for Muh now.

[Chinaman]

Well, Muh, that last post reads as though you claiming might be hurtful to the town. Although, if you aren't scum, you pretty much just told scum who to kill tonight anyway, so yeah, might as well claim. You can wait to see if the tides turn my way, but again, your last post pretty much outed you as a PR either way. Not sure why you posted it after some heat came my way to be honest. Could be that I would be the next wagon. Ah well, sadly you can't take it back.

DJ, read my ISO 16. That's where I clarify. It's a manner of speech not a scumslip.

Callmeliam: Well, after p320, I NOW do think muh would be a mislynch. (see above explination). Of course he could just be lying scum with that post. /shrug. MS gets me so confused sometimes.

Also, where the frack is there a claimed town PR thus far in the game. I do not see any. You sir are a liar. (ref p318)

[Chinaman]

Alright.

JVW, Muh, and DJ. I'll straight up ask, which of you is scum? Since you guys are pushing for a nice little mislynch on me, I'm guess one of you is. So which is it?

[Chinaman]

oh, i forgot Paltry voted me as well. what are your thoughts on him dj?

[Chinaman]

sorry, missed you too. interesting.

So at least one scum between:
don_johnson <------
CallMeLiam
PaltryExcuse
muh316 <------
JVW

I say I'm most comfortable with Liam as town due to the fact that he called himself out.
I would also say that I'm least comfortable with DJ or muh (or both) being town. I feel DJ might be scum due to his "gift wrapping JL". Could be hardcore first day busing.
I don't like muh's happily voting for the wagon that's not his against a townie (yeah yeah, you guys don't know that...but I do so there).

So, after ya'll decide if you're going to lynch me or not, we (or you if I'm lynched) can chat about that.

I will be ending this day with my vote on one of them.

[Chinaman]

^^I like this post

Adel: One thing I think you are missing is that Muh wasn't actually FORCED to claim. In fact, once I started posting, his wagon lost steam quite rapidly before he claimed. Then he went and claimed anyway. Other than that, I'm on the same thought process with him and JL.

[Chinaman]

if you have ever played with ABR, you should know he is playing according to his meta. I'm sure (but i dont know) he has played this way as scum, but I can for sure say he has played this way as town.

all in all, it's his play style and a null tell.

[Chinaman]

explanation of p321: This comment was directly after Muh's post 320. I posted it because of the way Muh posted in 320. p320 sounded genuine as though it would hurt the town for him to have to claim. I pointed it out but I simply forgot to unvote. By the I got back, muh had tossed out his claim even though Paltry had jumped off his wagon and joined mine (which I admit he had a pretty good reason). I'd be suspicious as well. But anyway, after muh's claim after he was no longer at L-1 and good points were brought up against me and it looked pretty good from where I'm standing that the heat was off him and on me now, that my vote on him was still worth while. To clarify now, I don't know if muh will be a mislynch. I think he's played scummy, but then again, I think you all have some pretty decent points on me for being scummy and I'm town so /shrug. I like a muh lynch still due to many reasons but the most recent would be that his vote went quickly to the person who mistakenly took the heat off him and is a townie....me.

That being said, if ya'll want me lynched, what would you think about me self-hammering to shorten the list of possible scum that are prolly on my wagon? Honest question here. If it's not worth shortening the list, then I'll just leave my vote on muh, but if you think there is scum on my wagon (once I would flip town), would shortening that list by one person be beneficial?

On a side note, look very carefully at the wagon of mine tomorrow should you decide to lynch me today anyway. I personally feel there is scum aboard which is why I offer to self hammer.

[Chinaman]

thanks for not lynching me early. I am on phone now.will post tomorrow when at comp

[Chinaman]

Sorry for not posting sooner. Have been on vaca this week and was away from a comp. Doesn't look like it matters as it looks like I am lynched. That being said, who is the scum on my wagon ya'll? I don't think it's ABR to be honest. I'm leaning it not being Adel either.

I would say if you lynch down the line of muh316, don_johnson, CallMeLiam, PaltryExcuse, we should still have a town win.

I will admit right now that I prolly deserve the lynching as I haven't had much time for this game and as Adel put it, have been apathetic. Sorry to the rest of town.

I honestly think DJ is the scum, but muh is prolly an easier lynch for tomorrow. If I'm somehow not dead and did math wrong

Vote: Chinaman

just to shorten the list for scumhunting tomorrow. Peace out ya'll and good luck.

[Chinaman]

I don't know guys. it's soon to be N2 and there is one scum down already. If I would have had more time, this game would have taken it. I think we still have a good chance of winning. Hell, you 2 (adel and ABR) are practically confirmed town as far as I see it. The list of 4 I posted most likely contains the last of the scum.

[Chinaman]

wait, is it bad to post in twilight if I have been lynched?

[Chinaman]

no, no special reason. he wants to abandon but I guess I could see scum wanting that as well with a scumbuddy gone already.

No special anything on my end. straight VT.