Mini 873 Plainview Game Over

[Papa Zito]

y halo thar

I'm here to inject some awesome into this game.

But I got to read it first. brb

[Papa Zito]

Holy crap there's a lot of words. I'll have to read through all this again. Good thing we still have two weeks.

Initial impression, we have scum somewhere in: foilist, SpyreX, cruelty, peanutman

Especially worried about SpyreX. I'm not used to seeing almost nothing from him in a game (until that last post I mean). Usually he tries to run the town.

But again, I'll need more than this cursory read because damn people.

P.S. I think we have some alts all up in here.

[Papa Zito]

Oh, and just so that I didn't lie to you:

foilist13
peanutman
cruelty
Spyrex

I do need to hear from the replacements soon though.

Sup. Looks like we're reading the game the exact same way.

I just finished an iso read of cruelty and I saw a lot of evasion and not much substance. The whole "I'm not posting scumlists they're evil" and "votes are tender kittens and I'll not abuse them kthx" just reeks. Great way to avoid bandwagon/post analysis later. The only real scumhunting he's done is on Foilist13, who just happens to be today's taste du Jour, and the climax of all that tunneling (iso 20) is really weak.

---

There's been like a hundred cases posted ITT, I'll have to go back and read those in context. But honestly guys the walls need to stop, they're smothering the game. Every time I try to make some progress there's another damn wall posted and I want to beat my head on the desk.

Also: Thread title says Open, where are the roles?

[Papa Zito]

I've PMed the mod regarding if this is an Open setup or not.

So I went through the cases ITT, and it turns out there's 9 (!!) of them that I found, and I may have missed some in all the walls. If I were to post all that stuff in here, I'd just be contributing to the problem, so I'm just gonna make a summary and I'll post the big thing only at request.

Like I said, 9 cases. BTW, I'm willing to bet that, since this is Day 1 and the town's been so chaotic, that none of these cases are buses:

Case 1: foilist13 vs. Muffin (125)

- bad case

Case 2: peanutman vs. archaebob (139)

- Would only agree on a couple points if we were later in the game

Case 3: AlmasterGM vs. archaebob (221)

- Agree on a few points but they're aren't damning. Some weird repeats of Peanut's case.

Case 4: AlmasterGM vs. MordyS (also 221)

- Horrible. All theory and wrong at that. lulz

Case 5: Muffin vs. cruelty (289)

- PbPA, I agree with all points here.

Case 6: cruelty vs. archaebob (290)

- Playstyle nonsense.
Sanjay's 327 isn't a case but it was lulz so I thought I'd say so here.

Case 7: SpyreX vs. AlmasterGM (351)

- I agree with a couple of points here. Good case.

Case 8: archaebob vs. Peanutman (370)

- This case is pretty much predicated on Foilist13 being scum.

Case 9: PhaerieM vs. Muffin (464)

- Some good points here.

One thing I'm concerned about is that I'm seeing a lot of people try to form scumteams... it's too early. We need some flips before we can do that.

Anyway, going to make this official now, prolly should have done it earlier.

unvote: Foilist13
vote: cruelty

AlmasterGM is also a good lynch, both from an informational as well as a scumminess standpoint. I won't mind switching there at all.

[Papa Zito]

xp to Papa: You absolutely missed more cases. I've made cases against Foilist, a few against AlmasterGM, and one against Peanutman.

Crap. I knew I had.

Once more into the breach, dear friends, once more.

[Papa Zito]

I've only made like one substantive post all game so far so I would feel awful if it was left out.

Interesting. So if that big post was a case, why aren't you voting Foilist13?

Also, while I'm here, who else is scum?

---

@MordyS, I found the Peanut one, and I swear I had it marked before and just completely forgot about it, but I can't find the others. Can you give me links or post numbers for those?

@Everyone else, if I missed one of yours let me know so I can recompile the list. Also, holy crap 10+ cases on day 1.

[Papa Zito]

Two reasons. One because I'm not fully caught up and two because I wasn't interested in pressuring him when I made that case.

Arrite, so help me understand what the point of the case was then. Typically cases are built to convince the rest of the town that hey ho look I've found scum, so I have to question A. why you didn't even vote for your own case (lol) and B. why you bothered to post it if you're just going to settle on Foilist for strategic value.

Also reiterating:

Also, while I'm here, who else is scum?

[Papa Zito]

Yo SpyreX, just so I'm clear:

You want to lynch the uncountered Doc.

Amirite?

[Papa Zito]

You damn straight.

Oho no good sir. We don't lynch an uncountered townie PR. If he's telling the truth the scum will take care of it, or if they don't he lives to see another day. In the meantime we lynch another good candidate(hint: cruelty). If he's lying we can always get him later.

[Papa Zito]

If you can give me ANY good reason for the VT Gambit that isn't some form of survival mechanism mayyybe I can be persuaded to shift to foil. Maaybe.

You're making me defend him. This is my sadface. --->

How about: he's a VT who's trying to protect the doc while simultaneously saving his own skin.

If he's not scum they'll be all OH GOD DOC YES KILL HIM NAO and we'll just be down a VT. A VT who'd normally have no chance of getting NKed I might add, given all the wringing of hands/gnashing of teeth/rending of garments ITT that he's not dead yet.

You throw roleblocker in the mix - why the hell wouldn't they kill the doc, and roleblock someone else? A guaranteed doc death and possible/maybe cop block would be worth far more methinks. I mean, as scum if you don't kill him off you're risking your RB is offed by a vig or something and then you've got a live doc mucking things up still right?

(Mafia 101 conversation is weiiiiiiird)

[Papa Zito]

Oy. Silly rabbit, all bandwagon claims are defensive.

FTR I'm

not

asking for a counterclaim, that's Day 3/4 material.

But I'm not wanting to lynch a claimed PR either.

[Papa Zito]

He clearly claimed doctor because he doesn't want to be lynched. Now either he's actually doctor and wants us to lynch someone else today and he'll be NK'ed, or he's actually scum and is lying about being doctor. There's no third possibility where he's actually VT and is claiming doctor to protect some theoretical doctor from being NK'd... just ridiculous dude. So there are only two possibilities for the softclaim VT. Either he softclaimed to take scum attention off him during the NK because he's actually a doctor, or he softclaimed to lie then and now that he's heading towards lynch, he's going to try to force the Town doctor out with a counterclaim.

Feel free to join the chorus screaming NO COUNTERCLAIM PLZ then. Because that's the road to fail, I agree.

Also, Option 3 is what we call a townie gambit, and it's perfectly legit imo tbh.

Anyway, my opinion on AGMGate is pretty obvious, and I won't be voting him today. The rest of you kids can do as you want.

[Papa Zito]

[1]So you're backing off your explanation. [2]Can you give an explanation for him softclaiming VT? [3]Or do you really think he softclaimed it because he wanted to take any PR attention off him. Because 1) I doubt there was any PR attention on him. [4]He was on so many people's scum lists any scum (all this assuming he isn't one himself) would've left him alive to sow confusion in town, 2) he could've easily have given the answer he gave me on this page -- ie, that he's been way more aggressive in other games. instead of lying about his role, and 3)[5] lynch all liars.

1. wat
2. It may have been a screw-up.
3. No, not at that point, that doesn't make sense.
4. Yeah, just said that. The thing is that he's not in imminent danger of being NKed, he's in imminent danger of being mislynched. (I'm playing AGM-is-VT here) So he avoids what he knows is a certain mislynch and he does a good deed for the town. A+ Boy Scout material.
5. Bah, that's the easy way out.

PREVIEW EDIT:

Also, 4) "Also, Option 3 is what we call a townie gambit, and it's perfectly legit imo tbh," why exactly is this a legit townie gambit? Honestly, look at his circumstances. He's probably going to be lynched, and he already softclaimed VT. What exactly does he stand to gain from gambiting a false doctor claim?

See #4 above.

[Papa Zito]

Wait, hold up.

You're saying you think AGM IS a VT?

I think the reasonable possibilities are vanilla townie, doc or scum (of some sort, doesn't matter).

Based on his play I think he's more likely scum than the other two. However as policy I don't go lynching uncountered power roles unless there's a super duper good reason (obv lying about targets, etc) I'd prefer we wait until later to deal with it and also see how night actions sort things out.

[Papa Zito]

Update to this since I think it'll be important later:

Case 1: MordyS vs. foilist13 (100, 131)

- hmmmmmm these are pretty good points, especially this early.

Case 2: foilist13 vs. Muffin (125)

- bad case

Case 3: peanutman vs. archaebob (139)

- Would only agree on a couple points if we were later in the game

Case 4: AlmasterGM vs. archaebob (221)

- Agree on a few points but they're aren't damning. Some weird repeats of Peanut's case.

Case 5: AlmasterGM vs. MordyS (also 221)

- Horrible. All theory and wrong at that. lulz

Case 6: MordyS vs. AlmasterGM (238)

- Some of these are nulltells I think but I agree that just abandoning the Gammagooey point just because people questioned it is scummy.

Case 7: Muffin vs. cruelty (289)

- PbPA, I agree with all points here.

Case 8: cruelty vs. archaebob (290)

- Playstyle nonsense.
Sanjay's 327 isn't a case but it was lulz so I thought I'd say so here.

Case 9: SpyreX vs. AlmasterGM (351)

- I agree with a couple of points here. Good case.

Case 10: Sanjay vs. Foilist13 (356)

- This is actually quite good, but I'm not sure how this proves he's scum... could he be just embarrassed town?

Case 11: archaebob vs. Peanutman (370)

- This case is pretty much predicated on Foilist13 being scum.

Case 12: MordyS vs. Peanutman (455)

- Not a huge fan of this one; the best points depend on AGM flipping scum.

Case 13: PhaerieM vs. Muffin (464)

- Some good points here.

Arrite, so. After all this cruelty is still my fave. AGM is #2 except the damn claim muddles everything. Sanjay has rocketed up the charts to #3 (congrats!).

BTW 13 cases on day 1 is insanity.

[Papa Zito]

How can you tell whether a doctor is obviously lying about targets?

There are a few ways.

1. He picks people that don't make sense. (Choosing some random guy vs. another claimed PR, choosing someone the town in general feels is scummy, etc)
2. He picks people he himself previously listed as scummy.
3. He picks someone who died. "How'd he die then?" "Gee I dunno."

I feel like there's a couple more that I can't think of off the top of my head. This sounds like a good wiki article.

[Papa Zito]

Sup kids. I had a great weekend, thanks for asking.

So then, on to cruelty. I can't believe you guys are actually asking for yet another case to be posted, but hey, when in Rome. First I'd invite the crowd to read Muffin's 289, which was quite spot-on.

PbPA gogogo.

0. RVS (null)
1. Foilist
2. Foilist
3. AGM / Foilist
4. Foilist
5. null
6. Foilist / refusal to share
7. refusal to share / AGM
8. AGM / Foilist
9. ARCHAEBOB vote & case???
10. null
11. Archaebob
12. Foilist
13. Foilist
14. null
15. null
16. archaebob
17. Foilist
18. AGM
19. null
20. Foilist
21. Foilist / AGM
22. Foilist
23. Foilist
24. Spyrex (on request)
25. defense
26. defense
27. defense
28. Foilist
29. AGM
30. Foilist
31. Foilist

So what does all this tell us then?

- First, cruelty has refused to provide his thoughts on people unless pressured. The only ones who really have to worry about this are scum. More wiggle-room for later, fewer tracks if you're flipped, amirite?
- Secondly, cruelty has stuck to the main bandwagons all game. He's pretty much tunnelled on Foilist the entire time and, regardless of his alignment, Foilist has been an easy target - precisely the type scum go after. Cruelty has also lobbed a few stones AGM's (aka The Other Big Bandwagon's) way. Anyone else? Nope, not unless you count -
- Iso post 9 - a terrible case on archaebob, and vote, when he hadn't mentioned the guy once before. This case came immediately after Muffin posted his case on cruelty - classic deflection. Even worse, the case was abandoned, archaebob unvoted, and the issue dropped completely when the town didn't follow. Last point on this - Did archaebob have a wagon on him at the time? You bet he did.


One final thing, and this is a recent development so I won't include it up there. He's really really nervous about my vote. My one single vote. He doesn't like it, and he's desperate to hear a case from me. Even though I've had my vote on him a while, his calls for explanation have coincided with other players starting to put pressure on him. Seems like nervous scum to me.

Spyrex stuff coming in a bit.

[Papa Zito]

Spyrex. Buddy. Help me out here.

Ben 490: AGM at L-2, Foil at L-6
Spy 517: Kill AGM nao
Spy 531: He's a doc, kill him anyway!
Pea 565: unvote, AGM at L-3, Foil at L-6
arc 575: vote, AGM at L-3, Foil at L-5
San 576: vote, AGM at L-2
Spy 583: unvote, AGM at L-3, Foil at L-4 ****????****

Spy, you want someone dead, you've been desperate to lynch AGM - Why the hell would you abandon the AGM wagon here?? At that point the AGM wagon was still more viable than the Foilist one, by three votes. I don't get it.

Also:

Ok, if there is an actual doctor, please claim. 1-1 is fine.

I

don't want to out our doctor.

lolwut

[Papa Zito]

ORLY amendment change huh.

Unvote, Vote: GM

So I feel better about SpyreX now. I asked Benmage for that clarification, and this is one of the reasons why. Good deal.

If I'm forced between AGM And Foilist I'm going Foilist, but damn what a crappy choice to make. If we had more than a couple days I'd push for a Sociopath wagon because there's no way in hell he's just having that hard a time just catching up.

Actually, you know what, let's do this. Cruelty can wait. Hop aboard.

unvote: cruelty
vote: SocioPath

[Papa Zito]

Oh look, another useless vote with barely any actual opinions of Almaster and foil. As much as Socio needs to post, two days before deadline after 30 pages of discussion is not the time to pressure vote.

I've already given opinions on Almaster and Foil. They haven't changed. Read the game plz.

And you're defending the lurker? Interesting.

2 days is plenty of time if we build some steam. gogogo

[Papa Zito]

Personally, I'd like to see your own thoughts instead of just your comments on the cases of others.

I think he's been suffocated. I agree the vote nonsense is somewhat bad, but I don't think that's slam-dunk-the-guy-is-scum-lynch-nao kind of deal. Despite all the rhetoric in this thread I haven't seen a good case on the guy, and I've seen him trying to contribute despite being constantly attacked. So no, I don't want to vote for him.

I'd much rather lynch cruelty or Sociopath for his blatant lurking; wouldn't mind Sanjay either (get to him later). I've already stated why I don't want AGM lynched. Cruelty obviously isn't happening. Let's lynch the serial lurker instead.

Given that we still can't come to an easy consensus after THREE WEEKS, what makes you think it can happen in about a day.

Why not drop a vote and find out then.

[Papa Zito]

I'd much rather lynch cruelty or Sociopath for his blatant lurking; wouldn't mind Sanjay either (get to him later).

I've already stated why I don't want AGM lynched

. Cruelty obviously isn't happening. Let's lynch the serial lurker instead.

When did this part happen?

Did you miss the whole back-and-forth between me and SpyreX?

[Papa Zito]

Is it because of the doc claim?

Yes, it's because of the doc claim. That was the entire crux of the argument; I'm not sure how you missed it. I'm not willing to lynch a claimed Doc on day 1. Just to make sure there's no misconceptions - Without a Doc claim, I'd happily be aboard the AGM wagon.

Besides, I thought I was your number 3? If you gave up on cruelty and you don't like AlmasterGM, what happened to me?

I had no issues with Muffin really, he gave me a townie vibe. But SocioPath's lurking at such a critical juncture feels deliberate. Since you're here and posting, I'd rather go after the lurker. I already said we'd get to you later.

Sanjay and Peanut, if you really want to make this happen then you kids need to vote SocioPath. I'll reiterate - if it comes down to deadline, AGM has the lead and Foilist is the only other viable candidate, I will switch.

@Gamma - You're starting to see support already. Hop aboard choo choo.

[Papa Zito]

Now we're cookin.

Unofficial:
AlmasterGM (1)foilist13,
foilist13 (5) cruelty, archaebob, AlmasterGM, peanutman, Gammagooey
SocioPath (5) Papa Zito, PhaerieM, Sanjay, SpyreX, MordyS

Not Voting (1) SocioPath


Can't do a wagon in one day my ass.

[Papa Zito]

Unofficial:
AlmasterGM (1) foilist13
foilist13 (4) cruelty, archaebob, AlmasterGM, Gammagooey
SocioPath (5) Papa Zito, PhaerieM, Sanjay, SpyreX, MordyS

Not Voting (1) SocioPath, peanutman

---

It does seem kinda fast but I think this is a better option than the other two so. And we can certainly revisit AGM tomorrow.

[Papa Zito]

Er, Not Voting (2) I fail at fakemod.

[Papa Zito]

Lawl SpyreX.

I'd like to give it another day if we could. Let anyone who hasn't popped in and given a reaction have a chance to give one.

Gamma, you willing to hammer?

I have a feeling these three bandwagons are going to give us oodles (oodles!) of info down the line.

[Papa Zito]

lulz, nath'd

[Papa Zito]

Drunk mod FTW.

AGM hammer FTL. Honestly I think I wanted to see anyone, anyone else do that.

SocioPath, you're dead, so no use lurking now. Were you scum? Out your buddies? etc

[Papa Zito]

Is this your first game Phaerie? (Just a curiosity question)

[Papa Zito]

SpyreX, wryyyyyyyyyy???

Arrite. Our flip wasn't just scum, but scum Godfather. This is a huge deal. Here's where we sat when we made our switch:

Vote Count:
AlmasterGM (3) MordyS, foilist13, SpyreX
foilist13 (6) cruelty, archaebob, Sanjay, AlmasterGM, peanutman, Gammagooey
SocioPath (1) Papa Zito

Note Voting (2) SocioPath, PhaerieM

Deadline November 20 4pm EST

I'm willing to eat one of SpyreX's hats if foilist13 isn't town based off of this. There's no reason scum would shift a wagon from Scum Role X onto a Godfather.

Now, again, we need to look at those who attempted to deflect/stall the Godfather bandwagon. And we have:

This makes very little sense. Can people please explain why foilist/AGM is suddenly not a good lynch anymore? I'm very suspicious of all these sudden wagon hops.

I'm going to make the naive assumption that he's reading through and making an amazingly revealing mind-bogglingly good post RIGHT NOW. Should I be proven wrong yet again, I'll hammer tommorrow afternoon.

As for my opinion on the matter.. I just hope you're right. I don't have a huge problem with this lynch - I think there are scummier players in the game but I have no issue with the logic of the lynch; there is a legit, unanswered case on muffin out there and the massive inactivity of Sociopath is definitely questionable at best.

I would definitely hammer at this point but will wait for Socio to respond first. My read-through of Muffin didn't change my mind.

... which ties nicely to ...

FinalVote Count:
foilist13 (2) cruelty, archaebob
SocioPath (7) Papa Zito, PhaerieM, Sanjay, SpyreX, MordyS, foilist13, AlmasterGM

Not Voting (3) SocioPath, peanutman, Gammagooey

cruelty and archaebob remained on foilist13, and we had peanutman and Gammagooey off either wagon. I'd say we have at least one scum among these four.

Special mention:

Unvote. Vote: SocioPath.

Worst hammer ever. SocioPath wasn't going to get away so this is a possible mercy killing. Also AGM is still alive, lol.

With all this said, plus stuff that happened yesterday, here's where I sit.


cruelty
AGM
archaebob
Gammagooey
peanutman

[Papa Zito]

Yeah, PhaerieM's defense makes a lot of sense, which is why Peanut is at the bottom of my list. Gammagooey had basically the same reaction, so he's down there as well. Incidentally this is another problem with ABM's hammer - We were hoping to see

something

out of SocioPath before deadline, and he prevented this from happening, completely without warning.

Archaebob and cruelty, however, both clung stubbornly to the Foilist wagon.

Actually, let me get the ball rolling here.

vote: cruelty

[Papa Zito]

[Actually, didn't Gamma have the *opposite* reaction? He came on & for several posts argued with you back and forth that this was a stupid idea, and there's no way there'll be enough people who switch in time to lynch Socio. How did he push forward the lynch?

The way I saw it, he unvoted rather like peanut did, then pressured me to figure out what I was doing. I don't really see any issues with him scumhunting in that situation and tryiing to test motivations.

Also, does anyone have any insight into possible reasons why spyrex was killed?

I have a theory but I don't know if it's wise to share at this point.

[Papa Zito]

Drunk mod is lulz.

Cruelty, your 871 isn't very impressive. We've now had two flips, two or three major wagons, 20 cases, and a partridge in a pear tree. I'd like for you to analyze all these things (especially the partridge) and give us your opinion on what these events mean. The time to play cards close to the chest is over and that ^^^ seems to be in that vein.

Same to you, archaebob. Aside from the cards bit.

[Papa Zito]

Zito prepare to be unimpressed.

:/

I still think foilist is slightly scummy, but I'm not as convinced as I was yesterday.

Why did he help steer a wagon to his Godfather then?

Also, if you had to vote right now or explode, who would you vote for?

I'm also curious about your theories a couple of you mentioned on Spyrex's kill (although I think fear of doc protection on me or Zito & the fact that spyrex has a good townie reputation are pretty good ideas to me), but I understand if you'd rather not say.

It'd involve PR speculation. Remind me in a day or two if we're still around.

---

Archaebob does seem to be lurking. Not wise, given what happened yesterday.

BTW, if we lynch archaebob and he flips scum:

Case 3: peanutman vs. archaebob (139)

- Would only agree on a couple points if we were later in the game

Case 4: AlmasterGM vs. archaebob (221)

- Agree on a few points but they're aren't damning. Some weird repeats of Peanut's case.

These two look much better.

Told you that thing would come in handy.

[Papa Zito]

MordyS's posts just got a lot scummier

?

Out of curiousity, AGM, who did you protect last night?

[Papa Zito]

cruelty, I don't think you answered this:

I still think foilist is slightly scummy, but I'm not as convinced as I was yesterday.

Why did he help steer a wagon to his Godfather then?

[Papa Zito]

He didn't vote until 5 other people did, either, so I think your question is misleading. He was fairly obviously just riding the wagon.

I can see two reasons for that.

1: foilist-town sees safety, both in numbers and from his own impending lynch, so jumps on the wagon.

2: foilist-scum sees which way the wind is blowing and slips quietly on the back of the wagon.

I just went back and looked. This is true actually. He was vote #6.

If we go with the theory that there was a late busser, then it would be one of Foilist or AGM. I say that in particular because of this:

Actually, I'll take it a bit further. If he is scum:

SocioPath (5) Papa Zito, PhaerieM, Sanjay, SpyreX, MordyS

I'd put HEAVY money on that whole list being town.

How you like them apples.

Well I'm in no position to go crying, so sure.

unvote, vote:Sociopath

SpyreX declares the wagon town, and Foilist joins it in literally the very next post.

hmmm

[Papa Zito]

Oh, this reminds me.

My read-through of Muffin didn't change my mind.

What did this mean?

[Papa Zito]

Cruelty (4) Papa Zito, AlmasterGM, Gammagoey, foilist13

All of you, 'splain please. I'm not seeing the case here.

Suggest you go back and read then, since several people have posted why they want cruelty dead.

Sanjay, why aren't you voting?

[Papa Zito]

Lawl, kay fine. That leaves me.

Has your opinion on archaebob changed now that he's posting?

[Papa Zito]

(big Papa Zito)

*flex*

I'm willing to eat one of SpyreX's hats if foilist13 isn't town based off of this. There's no reason scum would shift a wagon from Scum Role X onto a Godfather.

Still think this?

I'm less sure, given our earlier conversation on the matter. (If you are scum like I think then well done hurting his credibility)

I also think that he's slowly recapturing the limelight so I guess we'll see what happens there. For now though, I don't think he's a reasonable lynch.

What does reasonable mean?

Also who is your prime suspect now then?

@Sanjay - You missed my question. Why aren't you voting?

[Papa Zito]

I assume you have interest in giving us a better reason than that. Especially in light of...recent events.

So I'm not quite sure how to take this. Lazy town? Or scum trying to undercut townie cred? But why be so blatantly wrong?

Anyway, here's everything rite here so it can't be missed again:

So then, on to cruelty. I can't believe you guys are actually asking for yet another case to be posted, but hey, when in Rome. First I'd invite the crowd to read Muffin's 289, which was quite spot-on.

PbPA gogogo.

0. RVS (null)
1. Foilist
2. Foilist
3. AGM / Foilist
4. Foilist
5. null
6. Foilist / refusal to share
7. refusal to share / AGM
8. AGM / Foilist
9. ARCHAEBOB vote & case???
10. null
11. Archaebob
12. Foilist
13. Foilist
14. null
15. null
16. archaebob
17. Foilist
18. AGM
19. null
20. Foilist
21. Foilist / AGM
22. Foilist
23. Foilist
24. Spyrex (on request)
25. defense
26. defense
27. defense
28. Foilist
29. AGM
30. Foilist
31. Foilist

So what does all this tell us then?

- First, cruelty has refused to provide his thoughts on people unless pressured. The only ones who really have to worry about this are scum. More wiggle-room for later, fewer tracks if you're flipped, amirite?
- Secondly, cruelty has stuck to the main bandwagons all game. He's pretty much tunnelled on Foilist the entire time and, regardless of his alignment, Foilist has been an easy target - precisely the type scum go after. Cruelty has also lobbed a few stones AGM's (aka The Other Big Bandwagon's) way. Anyone else? Nope, not unless you count -
- Iso post 9 - a terrible case on archaebob, and vote, when he hadn't mentioned the guy once before. This case came immediately after Muffin posted his case on cruelty - classic deflection. Even worse, the case was abandoned, archaebob unvoted, and the issue dropped completely when the town didn't follow. Last point on this - Did archaebob have a wagon on him at the time? You bet he did.

One final thing, and this is a recent development so I won't include it up there. He's really really nervous about my vote. My one single vote. He doesn't like it, and he's desperate to hear a case from me. Even though I've had my vote on him a while, his calls for explanation have coincided with other players starting to put pressure on him. Seems like nervous scum to me.

FinalVote Count:
foilist13 (2) cruelty, archaebob
SocioPath (7) Papa Zito, PhaerieM, Sanjay, SpyreX, MordyS, foilist13, AlmasterGM

Not Voting (3) SocioPath, peanutman, Gammagooey

cruelty and archaebob remained on foilist13, and we had peanutman and Gammagooey off either wagon. I'd say we have at least one scum among these four.

[Papa Zito]

These are the reasons that I can see for your cruelty suspicions:

- you agree with Muffin's case on cruelty
- Cruelty's general unwillingness to divulge information
- Cruelty's voting position on primarily the main bandwagons all game
- his bandwagon vote onto me
- Cruelty wasn't on the socio-path wagon.

Is that everything?

Basically. Making the synopsis means you're leaving meat out but yeah.

I don't want you lynched. I think you're scummy.

I'm having a bit of trouble wrapping my head around it because generally the point of the game is to lynch the scummy people. Also it doesn't help that you aren't advocating a lynch at all despite the wealth of information in this thread.

---

For some reason it feels like only the same people are talking. Do we have lurkers? I'll have to check.

[Papa Zito]

This is true. Therefore I don't need to really go after him too much, his attacks on me have already sealed his fate (after his day 1 antics). Also, do you honestly think I currently have the town cred to be able to push the lynch of a claimed doc?

Credibility is a fickle thing. Let's go with the scenario that you're town. If you were to present a WOW case about someone right now and demand their lynch then the worst thing you'd do is leave great information for the town the next day. Helping your faction is never a bad thing, even when your faction wants you dead.

Maybe this is a semantics problem. You say you don't

want

him dead but it sounds like you mean aren't

able

to make him dead. Putting the credibility issues aside, do you

want

him lynched?

I think my time is better spent not worrying about AGM and seeing what else I can uncover.

I'd rather you not worry about how much you can accomplish and simply drive at your suspects, honestly.

[Papa Zito]

I really don't see the confusion about Cruelty's position on Almaster. It's the same as mine, and it's also the same as yours was at the end of the day yesterday, Papa. I think he explained it pretty fully yesterday: he thinks that AGM is scummy, but because of mitigating factors related to strategy and information flow, he has decided that actually lynching AGM is not the most beneficial move for the town to take.

It's not the same at all, unless I'm reading it wrong. The doc claim isn't figuring into his thinking, it's the fact that he's unable to form a wagon and get the town to follow. My reasoning was and is entirely based on the doc claim.

I'm trying to ferret out his motivations, and it's a damn hard job. Your white knight act isn't helping.

[Papa Zito]

Lurk Check

Papa Zito - x
foilist13 - 1 day
AlmasterGM - x
MordyS - x
Gammagooey - 3 days
PhaerieM - 5 days
Sanjay - 1 day
cruelty - 1 day
peanutman - 6 days
archaebob - 1 day

@Mod: Please prod PhaerieM

. Gamma's been quiet too.

[Papa Zito]

Unofficial vote count:

Cruelty (4) Papa Zito, AlmasterGM, Gammagoey, foilist13
archaebob (2) peanutman, PharieM
peanutman (3) cruelty, MordyS, archaebob


Not Voting (1) Sanjay

---

@Sanjay, I'd like to see you commit to someone.
@Peanut, you stole my thunder. I was going to bring that up later. :/
@Bob, Why did you ask me for my cruelty case and then ignore it?

[Papa Zito]

I just missed it the first time, when I was reading in iso. It came after your big list of what cases had been posted in the game, so for some reason or another, it didn't catch my eye. When you quoted it for me, I realized that I was wrong, went back and read it, and then used the information from it to compile all the points to your position that I could see. You said that my Post 1004 did a decent job of summarizing your views, so i stopped talking about it. i wasn't intentionally trying to misrepresent you, I just didn't see that part of your post at first. The whole reason for my post 1004 was to make sure that I

wasn't

strawmanning you.

That's not what I'm asking. You requested the information, I gave it, you summarized it, and then nothing happened. No opinion one way or another. I guess you don't realize how odd this is after you've been defending cruelty all day?

[Papa Zito]

You missed this post. Apparently so did peanutman.

I did miss it somehow. Sorry. Carry on.

---

Unofficial vote count:

cruelty (4) Papa Zito, AlmasterGM, Gammagoey, foilist13
archaebob (2) peanutman, PharieM
peanutman (4) cruelty, MordyS, archaebob, Sanjay

Not Voting (0)

10 means 6 to lynch, so cruelty and peanutman are at L-2.

I just realized that we still have an even number of players. That could be a problem later.

[Papa Zito]

I guess you don't realize how odd this is after you've been defending cruelty all day?

I don't see what's odd, unless you were expecting something further from me. You're the one who's on the cruelty wagon, and I'm trying to understand your position. I'm looking at each one of your points and thinking seriously about how valid it is, and in the meantime, you've told me to stop actively defending cruelty. What do you want from me? Do you want me to go into depth about why I don't think cruelty is scum or not?

I was expecting you to attack the case since you've attacked anything against cruelty today. So I'm surprised that you were silent. If you're still evaluating then that's fine.

[Papa Zito]

Happy birthday Gamma!

We seem to have stalled.

Deadline is in 7 days. We need to start reaching a consensus.

And I'm so not feeling a Peanut lynch.

But it seems cruelty's not happening.

?

I think of it like having an ugly girl as backup in case you can't score the hot one

LULZ

[Papa Zito]

Argh. What the hell is with this game.

1st, cop. If we have a counter, now's the time to do it.
2nd, investigation. I'd suggest Foilist, hard.
3rd, WTF is with the explosion of attacks on people? We have likely townies given the Godfather wagon but people are tearing down prob town instead of lynching scummy players?

I'm sure I missed a ton of stuff in this mess but goddamn.

I don't get the MordyS votes at all. Archaebob's worse and I'll vote him if I have to but this is starting to look like yesterday a bit and I suspect scum have a hand in it. Assuming our cop is real then we know at least one of yesterday's wagons was on town which half-validates the false dichotomy feel I had to the proceedings. This sudden weird shift is feeling similar.

I really don't want to wade through a bunch of arguments... can one of the MordyS voters present a case?

[Papa Zito]

You've invoked my name a couple of times now, so I feel the need to respond.

1) Cruelty is suspicious because Papa Zito found him suspicious, and MordyS trusts Papa Zito's opinion as a result of him having lead the wagon on Muffin.

This is completely and utterly bogus, especially since Papa Zito has said himself several times that he didn't actually have a strong scum read on Muffin. That Papa Zito happened to hit scum is no indication whatsoever of how good his read is on the game, since he never claimed to have thought Muffin was scum, meaning that Muffin's flip doesn't make PZ "right". And even if it did, this is an extremely lazy reason to find someone suspicious.

You're twisting this out of proportion. Let's review.

I didn't have a strong scum read on anybody, and why should I... it was Day 1 of a game I'd replaced into. I did, however, have a pair of competing wagons, one on a claimed (unchallenged) Doc and one on a player whose case I didn't really believe in.

Like I said earlier, I felt like I was facing a false dichotomy scenario... that the scum had quietly led the town around into a pair of wrong choices. That led me to casting my gaze elsewhere.

If you go back you'll notice I started popping questions at SpyreX. He wasn't receiving any attention at all and was quite capable of engineering what I described. But then I noticed that we had a player lurking, near deadline, with the false dichotomy looming.

This raised a huge red flag.

I'll admit that I didn't have much of an issue with Muffin. This was entirely about SocioPath and his lack of presence in thread. It grew more egregious as he posted in other games and avoided this one. Why replace into a game and refuse to participate? It was simply too off.

I'm a mostly gut player. I tend to do my best work early on in games before I start trying to puzzle things out logically. But that doesn't mean I don't have a basis for my actions. The above was my basis for this one.

Now, to the above. You keep saying Muffin, and I've said earlier that my issue was with SocioPath, not Muffin, so to keep repeating Muffin strikes me as disingenuous at best and scummy at worst. I also don't like how you're attempting to downgrade my scumhunting abilities here. Obviously I'm not a cop with guilties and innocents but that doesn't make my scumhunting crap either. Finally, to your last point... If nobody listened to or agreed with each other, despite not knowing alignments, then bandwagons would never form and we'd never lynch scum. So it's not "lazy" it's a freaking natural occurrence of the game.

/rant

[Papa Zito]

Jesus Christ. Page 52 on Day 2 of a mini? Seriously?

MordyS has basically stolen my thunder re: approach to the game. I find it extremely unlikely that one of them was on the SocioPath wagon early which is why I'm baffled as to why people are pushing on players on that part of the wagon when there are better candidates around.

I absolutely will not vote prob townies, and MordyS is one of those. And not just for his place on the wagon either.

@PZ, you didn't actually give us any idea of where you're leaning right now. Who do you find suspicious - still me? bob? Mordy? foilist?

I gave it at the beginning of the day and my approach hasn't changed. I feel like an attempt has been made to muddy the waters (damage control) and I don't like it.

cruelty
AGM
archaebob
Gammagooey
peanutman

AGM and peanutman go off the list.

cruelty
archaebob
Gammagooey

At least one if not both our scum are on this list.

And I'm sorry I'm not posting a ton but I'm sick, and this game is really hard to keep up with.

[Papa Zito]

Yo, Big Papa:

Why aint foilist13 on the list?

I admit that I'm mostly lynching him because I don't want him around at lylo, but foilist13 was off the list of probable scum and I really can't remember why that was the case.

He's borderline. He hopped aboard the wagon right after SpyreX posted his prob townie list (which is "whoooosh" as a famous philosopher once said) but he's not as bad as those who avoided the wagon or attempted to derail it.

It's why I suggested he be the cop investigation. If it turns out Foilist is town also then we had competing townie bandwagons, which makes the SocioPath wagon even more interesting.

[Papa Zito]

Lawl Sanjay.

@ Papa Zito -

Please answer this honestly...have you read my posts about MordyS, seriously, and thoroughly? I don't blame you if you haven't, as I understand how annoying a flood of words can be to sift through, but your current opinion sounds a little uninformed. If you still entirely reject the case on Mordy, I'd like to know why you aren't bothered by the multitude of points I have brought up against him.

Why are you insinuating that I'm not answering things honestly?

I am absolutely in tune with MordyS' view of the game (or vice versa, whatever) and I absolutely see where he's coming from. I also see his frustration and it feels genuine to me. I don't buy your points on him. I feel he's defended his position.

[Papa Zito]

Papa, do you think that if foil was investigated and turned up inno his arguments as a confirmed townie would be useful?

No. His

status

would be really helpful though. Reducing the possible scum pool yet further... it'll be too shallow for them to hide.

Why are you directing this at us in particular?

[Papa Zito]

have a lot of respect for Phaerie's complaints about the output of this thread.

Sigh, buddying.

unvote: cruelty
vote: archaebob

[Papa Zito]

Because you and archae seem to be ignoring foilist's comments at the moment, and I don't think that if he is town, he would be a useful and intelligent member in LYLO. Quite honestly, I think he's a liability to the town regardless of his alignment.

Er. You're making a huge assumption about game state here. Why is Lylo even entering the equation at this point?

And I can't see why a confirmed town Foilist is a liability. If you don't like his arguments you could just ignore them but you'd at least you could take them at face value.

[Papa Zito]

Because I'm trying to take into account the worst-cast scenario here. Best case, archae is scum, gets lynched, and we find the last scum member tommorrow for an awesome win. But assuming the best-case scenario is the one that's going to happen is dumb, and I think that just about anyone else would be much more useful to have their opinions as confirmed if they are investigated and turn up town.

wat

No, assuming any case doesn't make sense. We need to react to today's game state, not a possible future one. And honestly this is all just really insulting to Foilist. It seems like you're just attempting to discredit him in case he's picked.

[Papa Zito]

Papa Zeets: what is with calling archaebob out on buddying just now? Surely that's not something you consider an accurate scumtell.

What's the point of posting it then?

[Papa Zito]

I have tried SO HARD to please you.

????????????????????????????????????????????????????

@PZ (well, everyone, but mainly PZ in light of his vote) - you're now voting archaebob so I guess I can assume he's currently your #1.. if you believe he's scum, then how do you feel about foilist? Especially his post 115.

I can't deny that your play today is a marked improvement over yesterday. Whether that's because yesterday's behavior got you so much negative attention or otherwise is meh.

Archaebob's been really chaotic in this game, and yesterday's points are still there. He's not a bad secondary choice at all. Again, I feel the optimal play for town is to reduce the off-wagon pool.

I addressed Foilist... was there something else you wanted?

This isn't the first time you've noticed something that could be construed as buddying, especially when practically anything can be.

Context, Sanjay. Archaebob's push on prob-town MordyS is backfiring horribly. So what to do? "Halp me PhaerieM, you're my only hope." You think it's coincidence he'd appeal to another prob-town player who had posted reservations about MordyS?

[Papa Zito]

Papa if you think I'm trying to discredit him do you agree with what he's posted? Do you think he's playing well? At the beginning of today I thought he was a townie that had made some dumb mistakes but had learned from them and would make some contributions and be useful later on. I no longer think that is the case.

I think you're misconstruing his play for the entire day based on his last few posts.

[Papa Zito]

Yep. I feel like foilist and archaebob are circling each other. I think it's weird that nobody else seems to want to look at this.

I.... don't know what this means. Elaborate?

Also, I'm really unconvinced by this on/off wagon stuff.

Well, obviously, because you were off.

Bandwagon analysis is one of my chief scumhunting tools. I put a lot of stock in vote movement.

You lynched a guy based on lurking - I can't argue with the results but I don't think you can really justify calling me scummy because I didn't really want to move off someone I thought (think) was (is) genuinely scummy. It's not as though I've been flip flopping or inconsistent in any way. Genuinely don't understand.

Argh. It's too simplistic to call it just lurking. Please go back and read my justification again.

Also, are you seriously trying to tell me that scum can't be consistent in their opinions, and townies can't contradict themselves? Your world is too monochromatic for me.

unvote: archaebob I'm not ready to see a lynch yet, and with mordy ready to hammer, I don't feel right leaving my vote on right now until I really have a chance to decide. I'm fine with archaebob still claiming at l-2, but I don't want to see him claim then get hammered right away.

Gah. You don't let up pressure on a scummy player. If someone quickhammered archaebob it'd be horrendously scummy. You have to give people the chance to be horrendously scummy.

---

I'm going to have the most epic wall of my life on this thread tomorrow night. Do yourselves a favor and let me post it.

I really want the response to MordyS' 1323 to be the first thing addressed.

[Papa Zito]

Any results, peanut?

[Papa Zito]

Good deal. Especially since nobody was suspecting him.

vote: Gammagooey

[Papa Zito]

So we got one scum, guaranteed?

And what a lucky town we are, to have both a roleblocker AND a doctor. So much disruption of the mafia's nightkill.

And a cop.

So really we just pick, and if we pick wrong then we lynch the other one. Guaranteed mafia kills are faboo. It's just a matter of choosing which one.

I guess we should also ask if there are any cop counters too. Anyone?

[Papa Zito]

I'm waiting for Gamma's flip before I go read things. That said peanut=cop Gamma=scum seems way more plausible than the other way around.

We probably should wait for PhaerieM's go ahead too, since yesterday we sort of... didn't.

Well, if she were around more...

[Papa Zito]

Gamma was one of those off the SocioPath wagon, so he was plenty afraid to bus but did a good job acting like he wasn't.

Hmph!

<3

[Papa Zito]

What do you guys think he meant by the "Out of respect for the integrity of this game, I'm going to discontinue this line of conversation, as it puts Sanjay's win condition at odds with RL stuff, and that isn't fair."?? It was really confusing. What RL stuff is he talking about? Integrity of the game? Does anyone have any idea what this was about?

Not a clue what that meant. I remember that niggled something at the time because he implies he knows what Sanjay's win condition is but obviously that's not the case.

[Papa Zito]

I'd also like to hear from Foilist. He tried really hard to get a wagon on MordyS; the Gamma vote was rather reluctant.

Time to fill in the blanks a bit.

AlmasterGM

(4) MordyS,

Gammagooey

, foilist13,

SpyreX

foilist13 (4) cruelty,

archaebob

, Sanjay,

AlmasterGM

cruelty (1) Papa Zito

archaebob

(1)

peanutman

Note Voting (2)

Muffin

, PhaerieM

Hmm. Not sure how to interpret this.

[Papa Zito]

What was wrong with my gamma vote? I wanted to make sure the town knew where I stood, then executed the right play which was to lynch gammagooey.

Erm. That's not what you said.

I'm willing to lynch gammagooey at the end of the day if it comes down to claims, but right now I need to vote: MordyS

We have a guilty on Gamma, but here you vote MordyS anyway. You could just as easily stated your opinion on MordyS without voting for him. The way I'm reading this is you'd rather we lynched MordyS than Gamma.

I still believe that mordy is scum, but part of that case rested on sanjay being scum also.

So... unless you believe we started with 4 scum, wouldn't part of your case be invalidated?

[Papa Zito]

Especially since Cruelty + Sanjay weren't on the Gammagooey lynch.

Cruelty wasn't on the SocioPath lynch either.

[Papa Zito]

I do want to hear more from Papa Zeets and PhaerieM.

I know, and I'm sorry. I'm burned out on Mafia. What do you want to hear from me exactly?

We shouldn't no-lynch, we should try to win the game today and save the no-lynch for tomorrow if we need it.

cruelty, when you get back, can you tell me why foilist is scum?

[Papa Zito]

K. Let me do it this way.

lexprod

Papa Zito - obvscum
foilist13 - I'm really bugged by the MordyS vote because I just don't see it. I should have asked for a case here and forgot.

@Foilist - Case on MordyS please?

MordyS - So I still think MordyS is totally town. It seems like we've been in sync all game and I can easily see the things he says coming from a townie perspective.

afatchic

PhaerieM - Absent? I still can't see how she's scum with the absolute glee she had lynching Sociopath.

Chinaman

Sanjay - I'm a little more murky here. I need to review Sanjay. I've been reading his comics tho, good stuff.
cruelty - I haven't made a secret of my opinion of cruelty. I'd like an answer to my outstanding question here.

If I wanted to vote now I'd vote cruelty, but I don't see any point in rushing the day along. I can't see us having more than one scum left, so I'd rather we took our time and got this right.

[Papa Zito]

Sanjay has comics?

XD

I'll reread Sanjay tonight. Probably Foilist too. They're the ones I feel somewhat iffy about.

[Papa Zito]

@Papa - I'm not ready to post a case yet. Things have changed rapidly since day 2, and Cruelty's flip is going to make a huge difference.

I think right now that is the most important information to be had, and even though I personally think Mordy is more likely to be the next scum, Cruelty is a close second. With that in mind,

unvote, Vote:Cruelty

Wow. This post is just terribad.

Mordy, if you think people should be questioned, why not start doing it?

I got sucked into PS3 last night and didn't do my iso reads. I suck. I'll do it today fo sho.

[Papa Zito]

You aren't the number one scum anymore. You now occupy the number three spot. However I have come to the conclusion that the best play is to lynch cruelty, then move on to tomorrow if he is not the last scum. Mordy, you aren't going to get a case until tomorrow, and possibly not even then. This all depends on my third suspect whom I am not going to disclose until I try to lynch them.

Wait wat. Why did this happen?

[Papa Zito]

^^^ This is weird.

I dispute your characterization of my play, obviously.

In other news, I still owe the Sanjay thing I promised. I'll try to do it tonight. Got caught up in Christmas stuff.

[Papa Zito]

vote: No Lynch

[Papa Zito]

Actually,

unvote

. I want to be sure we get some serious discussion in before we no lynch it up. I never really thought about quick no lynching, but it seems like a legitimate concern.

@Papa - who are your suspects, why?

^^^Remember this quote tomorrow if I'm not here.

Quick no lynch is the way to go. No discussion plz.

[Papa Zito]

Ok someone needs to explain the theory to me then. I haven't been in this situation before, so splain.

We have 4 players, 3 town and 1 scum. (If it were 2 town 2 scum, they'd have won already. If it was 4 town 0 scum, we'd have won already)

3 town 1 scum is Mylo, as you said earlier. In Mylo the town wins on a correct lynch and loses on an incorrect one. (3/1 => mislynch => 2/1 => NK => 1/1 => scum win)

The correct play here is to No Lynch. A No Lynch will remove a possible mislynch candidate from the player pool and increase the town's odds of winning. From purely a statistical perspective, the town goes from a 1/4 chance (25%) to a 1/3 chance (33%).

The other question is why we should do this with no discussion. Two reasons.

1. We know the optimal play here, so there's no reason to delay it.
2. The remaining scum player is going to try to set up his/her optimal lylo tomorrow. The town aids in this choice by discussing who everyone thinks is most scummy. With only 4 players alive it's not hard to take what everyone is saying and translate that into determining who is

least

scummy, aka the most difficult mislynch candidate, or to help them determine who is most suspicious of them, thus removing a big lylo obstacle, or or or etc. This is one of the few cases where discussion hurts the town.

[Papa Zito]

That actually depends on the mod. Some force the scum to NK, some declare a draw after so many days.

@Benmage: What's your policy in this situation?

[Papa Zito]

Dude, Mordy, unvote. There's no rush here.

I'm 99% it's Foilist and he just ran out of room to hide. Need to go reread you two.

[Papa Zito]

Unvote

But I think it's you and you're going to have to make a freaking amazing compelling case against foilist13 to convince me otherwise.

I'm going to make a case on each of you and see which one makes more sense.

Is the fact that I'm here basically the only issue you have with me? Because that's pretty severe WIFOM territory if that's true.

[Papa Zito]

Ok, here's foilist. I don't have time to do Mordy now, I'll look at him tonight.

Day 1

The initial snafu about voting the wrong person, then refusing to move the vote, is interesting now that we have Gamma's flip. It looks like he didn't want to vote his buddy here. Especially this bit:

My vote is still on Gammagooey because I have not seen fit to move it to someone else. Why did yours stay on Muffin for so long?

....where he also questions someone voting Muffin.

Foilist takes a lot of heat for refusing to move the vote. Shortly after, completely out of the blue, we have a case alleging Muffin is active lurking (iso 11). Don't think he's not aware of the timing, either:

6) I continue to be attacked after my muffin case, so I post the reasons I came up with earlier.

I think he got spooked and tried a distancing tactic. Iso 60 is a fun read by itself, really scrambling.

It is bothering me that no one is responding to my post on Muffin. What, are one of you his scum partner trying to take attention away from your scumbuddy?

Here foilist draws attention to his Muffin case again. I bring this up because, after this post, we don't hear anything substantial about Muffin from foilist again. Instead he wagon-hops to whoever the town happens to be looking at at the moment. Speaking of which:

Well I'm in no position to go crying, so sure.

unvote, vote:Sociopath

This post comes directly after this one:

Actually, I'll take it a bit further. If he is scum:

SocioPath (5) Papa Zito, PhaerieM, Sanjay, SpyreX, MordyS

I'd put HEAVY money on that whole list being town.

How you like them apples.

... which I mentioned before, I think. The vote itself is bad... voting for the sake of voting... but I really think it came in reaction to SpyreX's post.

Day 2

Here we see some really interesting Gamma interactions.

Right now I find Almaster and cruelty (in light of Gammagooey's evidence) super scummy.

He'll later use Gamma's post again in a case against cruelty.

@Gammagooey - I'm willing to back off Cruelty for now, and yes I'll try and be civil, but he and Archaebob have been less than that towards me this game, and it's starting to get under my skin.

Taking a buddy's advice?

Another problem here is that, while he posted some minor suspicions of Gamma on Day 1:

Gammagooey - Hasn't been very useful at all, and my misvote against him in the beginning represents my feelings of minor scumminess.

... they seem to have completely evaporated for no good reason on Day 2.

I have reread Gammagooey, and it is precisely because I believe he is town that I would be impressed if he were scum.

Day 3

Day 3 dawns with a cop guilty on Gamma. So foilist joins the wagon, right?

I'm willing to lynch gammagooey at the end of the day if it comes down to claims, but right now I need to vote: MordyS

after that stunt you pulled you are obv scum. No amount of frustration can come close to explaining that.

... oh.

A few posts, and Gamma votes, later:

@Sanjay - I see no reason to doubt Peanut's claim. If there was another cop, he would have claimed by now, and the godfather does indicate that there would be a cop in the first place. Peanut's logic is solid.

The only reason not to lynch is to get more info, but we already have info. We know who the next scum player is, and if through some twist of fate peanut is lying and the mod put in a godfather for no reason, then we'll be able to lynch him tomorrow, leaving us with 3 town to 1 scum, giving us another opportunity, and much more useful opportunity to no lynch.

unvote, vote: Gammagooey

Quite a change of heart. This looks just like the Sociopath wagon vote.

Day 4

Oops, foilist contradicts himself.

@Papa Zito - I wasn't totally convinced of Peanut's cop claim at the time, but I should have made it more clear that I intended to lynch gammagooey.

Day 3 he said he had no reason to doubt the claim, but on Day 4 he wasn't really convinced?

There's a lot of flipflopping on cruelty.

That's the general basis of the case on cruelty right now, and I'm starting to find it pretty convincing.

He starts here. But then he starts defending cruelty.

Cruelty thought you were both town. he didn't know that you were both town. He wanted to see if you were both town. So he let you argue.

@Mordy - You are implying that Cruelty meant letting you as town bury yourself, which is obviously a stupid thing for him to say, and I know he is intelligent enough not to have meant that.

But then he does this:

I think right now that is the most important information to be had, and even though I personally think Mordy is more likely to be the next scum, Cruelty is a close second. With that in mind, unvote, Vote:Cruelty

???

He then refuses to explain:

You aren't the number one scum anymore. You now occupy the number three spot. However I have come to the conclusion that the best play is to lynch cruelty, then move on to tomorrow if he is not the last scum. Mordy, you aren't going to get a case until tomorrow, and possibly not even then. This all depends on my third suspect whom I am not going to disclose until I try to lynch them.

Day 5

The Sanjay NK is weird, but I think it was because Sanjay started pushing foilist pretty hard at the end of Day 4.

Here's where foilist reveals himself, I think.

Yeah, it's Mylo. I'm going to have to put my vote there as well for now. I can't see how it wouldn't be the right move.

Actually, unvote. I want to be sure we get some serious discussion in before we no lynch it up. I never really thought about quick no lynching, but it seems like a legitimate concern.

@Papa - who are your suspects, why?

This is foilist trying to figure out who to NK.

Then I explain to him why we need to No Lynch without discussion, but does he hammer?

Interesting.

... no. I think He was holding out hope that PhaerieM would come back and give him some information to work with.

And here we are.

[Papa Zito]

One quick thing.

That, but moreso, it doesn't make sense that it's foilist13.

So if you believe foilist to be town, this would have to be your worldview:

AlmasterGM

(4)

MordyS

,

Gammagooey

,

foilist13

,

SpyreX

foilist13

(4)

cruelty

,

archaebob

,

Sanjay

,

AlmasterGM

cruelty

(1)

Papa Zito

archaebob

(1)

peanutman

Not Voting (2)

Muffin

,

PhaerieM

This is just before I shifted a wagon onto Sociopath. So your argument is that, while there were two competing townie bandwagons, one on a claimed doc, and either of which could have easily been pushed to lynch, I chose instead to bus my Godfather?

Back tonight with a look at Mordy. foilist, when you get on please don't drop a vote.

[Papa Zito]

Lawl, sniped.

[Papa Zito]

I am

so

pissed. My laptop died while I was finishing up a post and it won't come back on.

Here's the gist of what I had though. On Day 1, MordyS declared Gamma town several times, which is okay, but also chainsaw defensed him a couple times, which is not. He did a bit of flipflopping on Muffin, first saying he was scummy, then town, then said something about scum juice, then dropped him to #3 on his list.

Day 2 he called Gamma town a couple more times, which is still okay and actually kind of a point in his favor for being consistent, but I took issue with a couple posts he made where he said that the SocioPath wagon was built fast enough to leave a scum off of it, but exonerated Gamma from that analysis.

Day 3 he immediately voted Gamma once peanut's result came out.

Day 4 was a cruelty fest, which I agreed with.

Day 5 he no lynched without discussion, as he should.

I can go back and pull specific posts for these if you guys want. Bottom line is that MordyS doesn't look nearly as bad as foilist, so if he's scum then job well done. My biggest reservation is actually his play today... he seems really eager to get votes laid down, which is more typical of scum then town.

I'm going back to read some of the stuff posted since I was online last, brb.

[Papa Zito]

If I were scum I would have left Sanjay and PhaerieM alive, obviously.

If we're going to play this game I would have left Sanjay and Phaerie alive, since they continually called me obvtown. Then just watch them cut each other to pieces.

Do you believe this is a scumtell more than a towntell?

It's iffy. Cutting him off early is certainly anti-town. I dunno about scummy really. It's possible MordyScum decided to hammer to prevent another magical wagon from forming, but eh.

@Papa - I didn't hammer the no lynch because the conversation wasn't over. I was waiting for the mods policy, and I expected a "so then" from you after we heard it.

? You were waiting for what? And why?

Why don't you and papa also send links to your scum meta, so we can all see what the other ones look like.

My wiki is up to date.

Are you literate? I have said, and I will say for the third time now that I did not suspect Phaerie more than you. You were my third suspect behind Sanjay and Cruelty.

Wait wat?

Just the wording of Phaerie's posts set off my scumdar.

This is irrelevant however. Phaerie is dead.

???????

I'd like the answer to this too.

[Papa Zito]

Mordy, you and I have struck gold. Papa must be the scum. Inconsistency is the biggest tell, and he has committed it massively.

vote:Papa Zito

Again you fail at context. That wasn't a quickhammer.

MordyS didn't hammer, so he must be town.

vote: foilist13

[Papa Zito]

I think I know who scum is, but I'm gonna take another hour to think about it. Do either of you wanna say anything?

Just that I think foilist is scrambling. I'm guessing he thinks you're leaning his way, and he knows I am, so that misrep quote was a last-ditch effort to convince you. It's telling that he can only pull one thing to say I'm scum in this entire huge thread. It's telling that he didn't even bother to address my big post on him today except for the very last point, and he didn't give a response to what I said to that. And it's telling that after saying he had no reason to think I'm scum just a few pages ago, while saying he had concrete evidence on you, he's done a 180 now and voted me.

I'm willing to answer any questions you have for me.

[Papa Zito]

Er, nevermind then. ^5 Mordy, you made the right choice.

[Papa Zito]

Why didn't you wait for us to post though?

[Papa Zito]

Gah. Mordy, I like you too much, I can't do this to you. And I just realized that Benmage said he's going to be gone until Sunday. I was actually the final scum. Sorry. :/

[Papa Zito]

I don't think I'm ever going to pull that stunt again. It didn't work quite as well as I'd hoped.

[Papa Zito]

Your gut was right. And totally caught me off-guard.

This situation happened to me in a game recently. It was like Day 7 and this one guy that everyone had been calling town was still around. I voted him off the bat but then got distracted by other things. Guess what he turned out to be.

And yeah, this is why I kept foilist around. I figured he'd be useful in endgame. Impressive scumdar tho.

[Papa Zito]

Nah. His gut said I was scum, his head said you were. It's a tough decision. I've been there before.

Honestly foilist there was reason to vote you. My case wasn't completely air.

And uh yeah, you did catch me in a contradiction. I forgot I wrote that days ago.

[Papa Zito]

Scum QT. It's not a magnum opus by any means.

What prompted the power shove day 1? That could have backfired REAL REAL bad (if I was the cop you may have been a quick nab).

It was a risky gambit.

I wasn't really playing that well, and I saw SocioPath attempting to lurk through the day. The situation was pretty unique... hell, this game was pretty unique. I'd never seen a town at each others' throats like this, not ever. To me it seemed possible that if I could take advantage of the dual townie wagons by bussing an inactive scum, it would earn me enough cred to ride to endgame and let the townies continue to tear each other apart.

Oh look, another useless vote with barely any actual opinions of Almaster and foil. As much as Socio needs to post, two days before deadline after 30 pages of discussion is not the time to pressure vote.

I've already given opinions on Almaster and Foil. They haven't changed. Read the game plz.

And you're defending the lurker? Interesting.

2 days is plenty of time if we build some steam. gogogo

Given that we still can't come to an easy consensus after THREE WEEKS, what makes you think it can happen in about a day.

Why not drop a vote and find out then.

This is me trying to convince my partner to join the bus. If he had we probably wouldn't have had the peanutman snafu.

I was sad to become the dead in this game. Real sad.

You made us think you were a PR. :/

Papa Zito...I suspected you a lot after you didn't attack Mordy for hammering me. That contradiction was glaring, and I'm surprised no-else picked up on it. Unfortunately, I was already dead...

I'd spent too much time buddying him to throw that all away.

I will take credit for preventing AGM from being lynched Day 1

Hey, I was completely opposed to lynching him too, remember?

Hats off to PZ for the the biggest scoop ever with that socio wagon; twas a brillliant move, especially since no one in the town had the brains to see through it.

Oh no. cruelty saw right through it. It was very, very necessary for cruelty to die.

[Papa Zito]

Thanks AGM.

SpyreX - Dangerous to keep around. SpyreX is the best player in this game.

But he's also been pretty off.

Awwww <3

I wish the bolded wasn't SO true. My lord these days I'm better off RNG'ing.

I read the game before replacing in.

I need a replacement for mini 873 interested?

Do I get to be scum with SpyreX?

I was surprised you were town when I replaced in. You just seemed so off for some reason. Was it all the walls?

Once I knew you were town I started thinking maybe this is how you play PR. And then you started saying power every post like you wanted a doc protect and well. Poof.

[Papa Zito]

I decided to bug Benmage by submitting NKs in Shakespeare.

What a piece of work is SpyreX, how noble in reason, how
infinite in faculties, in form and moving how express and
admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like
a god! the beauty of the world, the paragon of Ur-Quan—and yet,
to me, what is this quintessence of dust? SpyreX delights not me—
nor woman neither, though by your smiling you seem to say so. So let's kill him.

Is this a dagger which I see before me,
The handle toward my hand? Come, let me clutch thee.
I have thee not, and yet I see thee still.
Art thou not, fatal vision, sensible
To feeling as to sight? or art thou but
A dagger of the mind, a false creation,
Proceeding from the heat-oppressed brain?
I see thee yet, in form as palpable
As this which now I draw.
Thou marshall'st me the way that I was going;
And such an instrument I was to use.
Mine eyes are made the fools o' the other senses,
Or else worth all the rest; I see thee still,
And on thy blade and dudgeon gouts of blood,
Which was not so before. There's no such thing:
It is the bloody business which informs
Thus to mine eyes. Now o'er the one halfworld
Nature seems dead, and wicked dreams abuse
The curtain'd sleep; witchcraft celebrates
Pale Hecate's offerings, and wither'd murder,
Alarum'd by his sentinel, the wolf,
Whose howl's his watch, thus with his stealthy pace.
With Tarquin's ravishing strides, towards his design
Moves like a ghost. Thou sure and firm-set earth,
Hear not my steps, which way they walk, for fear
Thy very stones prate of my whereabout,
And take the present horror from the time,
Which now suits with it. Whiles I threat, he lives:
Words to the heat of deeds too cold breath gives.
So let's just kill AGM now and go have some KFC.

Blood and destruction shall be so in use
And dreadful objects so familiar
That mothers shall but smile when they behold
Their infants quarter'd with the hands of war;
All pity choked with custom of fell deeds:
And Gammagooey's spirit, ranging for revenge,
With Papa Zito by his side come hot from hell,
Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice
Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war;
That this foul deed shall smell above the earth
With carrion peanutmen, groaning for burial.

Blow, winds, and crack your cheeks! rage! blow!
You cataracts and hurricanoes, spout
Till you have drench’d our steeples, drown’d the cocks!
You sulphurous and thought-executing fires,
Vaunt-couriers to oak-cleaving thunderbolts,
Singe Sanjay's white head! And thou, all-shaking thunder
Strike flat the thick rotundity o’ the world!
Crack nature’s moulds, all germens spill at once
That make ingrateful Sanjay!

Alas! poor PhaerieM. I knew her, Benmage; a lady of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy; she hath borne me on her back a thousand times; and now, how abhorred in my imagination it is! my gorge rises at it. Here hung those lips that I have kissed I know not how oft. Where be your gibes now? your gambols? your songs? your flashes of merriment, that were wont to set the table on a roar? Not one now, to mock your own grinning? quite chapfallen? Now get you to my lady’s chamber, and tell her, let her paint an inch thick, to this favour she must come; make her laugh at that.

(sorry Benmage. If I'd known you were looking for a PhaerieM replacement I would've told you that she was next. :/)

[Papa Zito]

I'd just like to say, that my absence was in no way, shape, or form, a fabrication.

Oops.

My favorite post by PZ was the 'look at those D1 competing town wagons, why would I, as scum, push to lynch my own GF.'

I waited all game to say that.