Mini #893 - Dollhouse Mafia (Game Over!)

[Pug89]

I'm definitely for being conservative in regards to imprinting. The imprint everybody plan would certainly result in an exciting night, but there is no way to tell how that would turn out. We don't know what powers will be given (except possibly a killing power) and this early in the game determining who is scum can be difficult. On the other hand, imprinting everyone would give us a lot to go on the next day, but if scum get a killing role they can continue to use it because the potential pool of players to be imprinted with it will be everyone. With Limerickx's plan, or even imprinting a few people as opposed to just one, a night kill doesn't seem likely to me early in the game since it will automatically bring suspicion onto the everyone who has been imprinted.

[Pug89]

@DN: Let's say we go with imprinting everyone. How many townies do you think need to be confirmed in the night for it to be worth giving scum powers indefinitely? I don't think confirming one townie is worth it at all.

I agree, and if scum do manage to get a killing ability the confirmed player is likely to be killed the next night.

[Pug89]

I agree TheButtonMen's plan sounds boring.

No we aren't, they have a 4 man group that can vote in concert, we have 8 individuals. 4 man informed minority votes much stronger then 8 uninformed majority.

That may be true but if the same 4 people consistently vote for the same person all time and those people turn up town the town will notice eventually.

We can't play this game like normal if we want to win IMO, 8-4 is unwinnable by town in regular mafia, thus playing this like a regular game of mafia seems a terrible call.

You're forgetting the fact that in a normal game scum get NKs but in this game they don't unless the get it from being imprinted. This changes things a lot.

Your wrong Elvis. You are bases your read on me from a plan that I suggested to benefit town. I want to point a few things out to you.

1) your making it seem like I am trying to get a power over other people when in fact, I am the only person who does not have a vote for being imprinted.

2) My plan was not my only suggestions, it was simply the most wordy one. I gave two options for town. One with powers and one without. The one without powers is pretty self explanatory and is obviously the route that Elvis wants to choose. I do not care what route we choose but I want people to give reasons for it.

I really don't like this post. It seems like he is trying to force the town to choose either empowering everyone or no one and ignores the third option of imprinting only a few people (which is what Elvis actually suggested).

His first point also seems invalidated because while he may not have a vote to be imprinted if he could convince the town of his plan not only he, but his partners (assuming he is scum) would all gain powers.

@everyone: is my voting for buttonmen for blatantly trying to break the game scummy? Is buttonmen scummy for trying to break the game, or is being against the spirit of the game acceptable?

While I don't agree with TheButtonMen's plan I don't see it as particularly scummy. It doesn't really seem to benefit the scum very much since his plan requires the town NL and the scum can't NK.

[Pug89]

@ Elvis_knits, The one cop result even is paranoid/naive/insane we simply get a large enough sample

But the only way to confirm is to lynch the player. Also since the imprint will be different each time, there could possibly be more than one investigative imprint with different sanities.

[Pug89]

Sorry but your wrong too. My first point was in defense to him saying I was trying to get a power, which I have shown no inclination to do.

If you are scum, you can't seem too eager to get imprinted. Also, your plan does include you getting powers and is going to make N1 chaotic and it will be difficult to determine any lies that scum might tell about their night actions.

[Pug89]

Do you think scum often get mixed up about their killing powers?

Scum having NKs is the norm and the role PM doesn't state explicitly that they do not have a NK.

Using the fact that you and SC didn't know scum didn't have NKs to confirm yourself as town seems tenuous at best to me. SC's votes to imprint both elvis and himself at the beginning of the game certainly seem strange as well. At the same time he (I'm assuming randomly) voted for me but random voting to imprint seems strange too me; especially since he never unvoted or confirmed that he wanted to keep them, they just flew under the radar.

I'm glad elvis mentioned that scum can talk during the day. It is another thing different about this game that is easy to forget and should be kept it mind. It makes it much easier for scum to cooperate during the day than in a normal game.

[Pug89]

I'm down with EK's plan. I doubt she came up with the gambit, waited for a town player to do the same thing she was planning to do, asked the question twice before TRAP SPRUNG and then claimed herself in the rush. I think she's genuine.

If you are both scum though you can communicate during the day outside of the game.

When we started I knew a lot lss about imprinting other than it would be useful in the hands of good protown players. I have limited experience with the people here, I know I've played with Plum but only briefly. But I've played one long and great game with EK and know her to be an excellent player and also feel I have an edge in reading her.

This reasoning seems a little weak to me. While your previous experience with elvis may give you an advantage in reading her you voted to imprint her the first post of the game. At that point you couldn't possibly have any idea as to her alignment.

[Pug89]

As for my reasons for picking elvis - that's it I'm afraid, that' just why I chose her. And it's not just that I could read her better than most, (hopefully) it's also that I know she's a good player and would use it well.

That relies on her being town though, which at that point you had now way of knowing.

You're correct about day communication, I didn't realise. But if it was an elaborate day planned gambit, elvis could have picked any other scum buddy that hadn't already imprinted her and do it with them, she didn'th ave to pick me.

Actually no, you were the only other player to make a comment indicating you thought scum had a NK before the mod clarified that point.

[Pug89]

.. I will probably never have a way of knowing anotherp layer's alignment, so any time I vote to imprint I'm hoping they are town. But them being a good player is also a necessary condition to them being imprinted. Because a bad townie with an imprint isnot very good for the town, but a bad scum with an imprint is still very bad for the town. So the ability level of the player imprinted makes a difference.

My problem with your vote to imprint elvis is at the time your vote was entirely based on player ability and didn't take into account alignment at all.

Ok, so you're saying the scheme was cooked up in the 40 minutes between Iam making that qualification and elvis asking me why I thought we would be in lylo after 1 night? It's possible, i guess, but I'd still say unlikely.

If you are both scum, I don't think this was planned then, but something taken advantage of later.

@Pug: Do you think one or both of elvis or SC are likely scum? If so, is there a reason you haven't put a vote down?

The whole attempt to verify them as town on what I think is weak reasoning bothers me as well as SC's trust of elvis from the very first post of the game. If only one of them is scum I think it is probably elvis but it's still early. I generally don't rush to vote on Day 1. It has only been 2 days since the game started and there are still some players who have yet to post so I probably won't vote until everyone has posted.

[Pug89]

Just a few things from a quick read of the last day and a half or so:

DN's decision to vote for everyone he doesn't find suspicious seems strange to me, especially since the rest of the town has pretty much decided that imprinting few people is better. It may be a way of getting is partners (if he is scum) closer to being imprinted without overtly being shown to support them if he gets lynched later.

I still disagree with lynching today, as scum don't have a NK unless we give one out. I just don't see a reason to take the chance when there wont be a kill (and if there IS a kill, it would be from one of the players we give and imprint to)

I think this may have been addressed but lynching will give us more information than not. If we limit the players given imprints that will give us a relatively small pool of possible players responsible. There is the possibility of scum getting a NK ability and waiting to use it on a night they are not imprinted, but unless everyone as been imprinted at one time or another they are still taking a huge risk.

I think we need to reach an understanding in this game of how we are going to approach things. We need to agree if we want to lynch and if we want to imprint and such things. Obviously I think we should go with my plan of lynching, while imprinting a few people we think are town

I completely agree with you here. Information on how the imprints work could be very useful to the town later in the game.

I'll to a closer read of the last day and half and post more tomorrow.

[Pug89]

I understand that, and I don't think that people who want to lynch today are wrong for saying so, but I guess that I just feel, with scum 100% not having a kill as of this very moment, tomorrow is just sort of an extension of today. If we imprint and don't lynch, today+tomorrow is basically one long day in my eyes, only with the added information that comes from knowing what sort of imprints are out there, and anything else we might learn from what is revealed during the night phase. Maybe there are mechanics we don't know about. For example, being FORCED to use the imprints you get would fit with the premise of the show.

You make some good points and I can see were your coming from, and I wouldn't be completely opposed to it. A NL wouldn't be the worst thing for town given the lack of NKs but I still think we could get more info out of a lynch today than not.

.... almost nothing. Vala, Vala, why exactly are people trusting you? I cannot but notice that my "lurking" didn't bother you until I posted and cast my vote. What is wrong about my vote? Why don't you like it, lady?

I can't speak for Vala but it would be easy to forget you were in the game given the pace of the game and the paucity of your posting.

Pages 1-5: Nothing! Setup-related paranoia.

You didn't find anything at all to comment on? Not DN's plan or the whole elvis/SC thing.

sorry people, but I cannot post more than this, and it will never be style to spam the thread with huge quoting-quoting-posts. I hate them, who already knows me can confirm it.

You don't have to be making several long posts every day to remain active. So far you have only posted 4 times and only 2 of those post had any real content and your vote in your first real post had very little reasoning to back it up.


@DeathNote: care to elaborate why you unimprinted lewarcher82?

[Pug89]

So DN's plan is no good, but the comment by pug in post #89 is circular. I does not discuss the features of the three options, but he just sez that proposing to eliminate one of them (imprinting only some players) is scummy. I think this is just a logic fail, but since you want me to comment the first 5 pages, please explain why.

elvis already addressed this but, both of the plans DN proposed(all powered or none) were more beneficial to scum compared to the third option (only imprinting a few). Imprinting everyone would give all scum an ability that could be useful to them later in the game and not imprinting anyone deprives the town of potentially useful information.

For what regards the answer to your question, elvis, I am not sure if you are both scum (see below): it is true that sc opening the very game with the imprint would have been crazy. But he surely had an answer ready, he could have said that he was just random imprinting as he waited for the game to take-off... It's a weapon that can work both ways.

Actually when I asked him about it he said he imprinted elvis solely because of her playing ability.

I disagree to a degree on both counts. Imprinting information probably will be useful - in the long term but less so in the short term. Depending on how many imprints we give out and how gutsy the scumbags are, the scum might NK tonight if they can.

I don't think scum will NK tonight, if they get the ability at all it probably won't be used until later in the game when there is a smaller pool of potential players who could have retained the ability.

[Pug89]

How is that a policy lynch?

Because I know how this will turn out. My tactic right now is called, appeal to emotion.

I was leaning this way already but this is enough to make me

Vote: DeathNote

. It is clear he wants to imprint as many people as possible and when he votes to unimprint someone it is for vaguely defined reasons.

MONTANA (Pug89) - neutral (posted some good things, feel like pug is sitting on the sidelines a little though, gives me the feeling of maybe letting townies fight? I think pug and messiah have agreed a lot which worries me slightly)

Sometimes when I get on there is so much content to get through that I don't have time to get to everything and although I mean to I never get around to commenting on it. That is probably why your getting that impression, but it is a valid criticism and I'll try to be better about that in the future.

I'm not really sure what to say about the messiah thing. A quick reread of his post shows we agree on DN and wanting to lynch tonight with only a few imprints (which I believe you do too) so I think your referring to the whole situation with SC and you.

Within the next day or two I'm going to take a closer look at each player and post my opinions so far and probably vote to imprint as well.

[Pug89]

Limerickx's idea of imprinting one person then waiting for the night actions to proc is flawed. This assumes that killing roles can ONLY be given to scum. What if there's a town vig? What if scum no-kills? Too many holes in this logic.

I don't think it does. To me it seems like a way to get information about how imprinting works exactly and the kinds of roles possible.

I don't like the SC/elvis buddying. It's like they have a preformed alliance from previous games, and neither of them are actually considering that the other one could be scum.

I completely agree with you and that is the main thing that is bothering me about both of them.

Read that bit again, farside - I'm saying the VOTE ON buttonman for trying to break the game is scummy. I'm agreeing with you - button isn't scummy for trying to break the game but the vote on him is.

This as about VMD's vote right? I read that as more of a pressure vote than one actually indicating that she thought he was scum because of it.

I have a suggestion. Lynch DN, imprint me. If I'm wrong, and he's town, I'll be the next lynch, and I'll tell you all what my power was and where I used it and what I found. If I'm right, we lynch Starbuck and imprint me and elvis.

I don't like this. It ignores the fact that you can lie about your role and we would have no way to confirm it. I also don't like that you are trying to determine the town's decisions for the next day ahead of time. This plan puts way to much control in your hands and I don't fell comfortable imprinting you at all let alone by your self.

[Pug89]

You wouldn't agree to imprint me knowing I'd only have the chance to use it once if dn is town, even if I was scum?

Absolutely not. Even before you proposed your plan I didn't trust you but with this my read of you is getting scummier and scummier. And even one night of scum having abilities could be detrimental to town, especially if you thought you were likely to be lynched the next day anyway.

Your trying to order lynch's in advance, your creating dichotomies and your still trying to get us to imprint elvis even though theres no reason to belive shes town.

QFT

If I put my own arse on the line and make this deal, I deserve some credit for being right about DN and I am cashing that credit in by asking for a second bite at an imprint, an imprint for the person I think is most likely town and a lynch for the person I think is scum with DN. You should want this stuff too if DN is indeed scum, because it'd be very unlikely I was scum, very unliekly elvis is scum and strongly likely SB is scum.

Even if DN and scum and you are town that doesn't make your read of elvis correct and your trust of elvis from the very first post of the game makes me think you are not being objective about her.

scum don't post or is this almost the evilant of lynching lurkers in this post that leaves a bad taste especially as not too long ago she was saying Plum was town.

My read of that post was that VMD was saying that there are enough people posting very little to make up an entire scum team not that she found every one of them scummy.

b) That one should not defend someone one thinks is town

No one has said that, the problem is when you defend someone as town with little solid reasoning

Elvis - not one person feeling out whether any of my lynch DN then me type plans is a good idea and all of them being rejected out of hand suggests to me that DN is scum for the same reason you just came to your elvis and sc are town conclusion.

I think DN is scum myself but I'm not for your plan because I don't trust either you or elvis enough to imprint.

@SC: why aren't you for imprinting tonight?

[Pug89]

Smart scum will bus their scumbuddies if they think the benefits will outweigh losing a member. Period. For a scum attacking a scum!DN, they would receive far more benefits from bussing him early and hard than they would from keeping him alive, assuming he's as useless in the QT as he is here. If DN is scum I expect to find at least two of the scumbags on his lynch trying to make themselves look good, if not all three. You're completely disregarding the fact that he is a blatantly anti-town player, and not someone scum would probably want to keep around if he's going to undermine their strategies.

I was just about to point the same thing. DN has looked scummy since his first post when he suggested imprinting everyone.

unvote, vote deathnote

executive decision. Let's continue this after a flip.

Seriously? You do this while the town was still discussing important issues that needed to be decided for the day?

[Pug89]

Pug who do you want to see with an imprint and why?

I was actually about to get to that when SC quick lynched.

TheButtonmen: His plan at the beginning of the game was game breaking but it was definitely protown and the rest of the game I have gotten a protown read on him.

Plum: She hasn't posted often but what she does post is well thought out and reasonable. Also, she was on DN's wagon relatively early on, although that is not the strongest town tell given how blatently scummy DN was from the beginning.

Imprint:TheButtonmen
Imprint:Plum
Imprint:Pug89

[Pug89]

I'm really sorry about missing almost all of D2 but I'm just catching up now.

Honestly, a lot of the reason I want to see people imprinted is because I'm curious to see what kind of roles are available to us. Another is that if I thought this game was meant to be played as a purely vanilla game, the mod just would have made it that way. To play the whole game as a nightless vanilla would just be... underwhelming. And if we only imprint a couple people, I don't see much danger in it.

I agree with this.

Say you imprint someone. They are scum and get the ability to kill. They don't use it that night and claim they got doc power and it did nothing.

Now they have a NK. They can use it another night to frame someone, or just use it when we thought we had some lynches up our sleeves.

That is a fair point (and I believe I brought it up myself at one point) but if we keep the pool of players with imprints small it make finding the killer easier, and it is not like the town is just going to forget that scum get to keep imprints if someone is NKed it will be taken into account.

Then I think the people who ignored DN entirely or addressed the plan without talking about DN, are much more suspicious than people who asked DN direct questions.

Why is this exactly?

But what about the second attempt - Iam created a 'if noone dies in three days it's a draw' rule and I suggest being able to never imprint anyone and if things look like we're in lylo and going to lose we just vote to no kill 3 times and it's a draw, giving us either a win or a draw with no chance of loss. That's breaking it isn't it?

You didn't seriously propose that plan though. I feel you are trying to misrepresent yourself here to take advantage of the fact that several people find TheButtonmen pro-town for trying to break the game in towns favor.

If we lynch without imprinting and people wish we had imprinted, we can just no-lynch the next day and go right to night. There is nothing lost by lynching without imprinting, and everything to gain (as we will have another flip to look at).

That is actually a good point but it is easy to get sidetracked and end up lynching before the imprints are decided. It also ignores the fact that SC made a decision on his own that was clearly against what most of the town wanted.

Also really unhappy about the railroaded lynch on Starbuck yesterday, scum just took advantage of her VL/A to lynch a towny. This time could we at least get the day to last long enough for everyone to post before putting someone up a tree.

QFT. D2 only lasted a little over two days and it was less than that when the lynching vote was placed.

Something occurred to me about deathnote. He was scum who pushed a plan giving all the scum power roles. IMO opinion that increases the chance scum knew they wouldn't have a NK unless they got an imprint. Because DN was pushing so depserately for imprints. Which increases the chance that SC and me are town, once again.

I don't really see how since getting an imprint would be helpful to scum either way. How does that make it more likely you and SC are town?

[Pug89]

@Everyone - Do you think that plum posting in her other games but not here is a null or scum tell?

Not particularly since this game moves pretty quickly but I do want to see more from Plum.

My impression of TheButtonmen hasn't changed so I'm going to vote to imprint him. When I get a chance (It may be a few days though) I want reread some stuff and I'll probably vote to imprint one more person.

Imprint:TheButtonmen
Imprint:Pug89

[Pug89]

Sorry, I've been gone, busy with the holidays. I'll try to catch up either tomorrow night or Sunday.

[Pug89]

And finally, even if you didn't agree with any of that, how does changing to a no-lynch imprint help me out if I'm scum? There's still a lynch required tomorrow, it's not likely to lead to a mislynch. I personally will not get an imprint any time soon. So why does it benefit me to see power roles assigned?

NL would give you more time to change the towns mind and while you are not likely to get an imprint if you are scum you have partners who could get an imprint.

Vote:No Lynch

I'm for the NL and imprint plan for tonight, I'm already voting to imprint 2 people (buttonmen and myself) so I'll probably just leave it at that since 2 people for imprint seems to be the consensus.


Sorry this is such a sparse posting I've been sick and don't have the energy to go through everything right now, but I'll try to post more tomorrow.

[Pug89]

Furthermore, I think Messiah's imprint would give us a definite read on him, and right now he's one of those "town-but-I-have-an-unexplainable-scum-tingle" people. I think he's town, but at the same time, something is nagging at me that he might be scum (ie, points other people have brought to light which changed my mind).

I have to agree with elvis here, if you are not confident in someone's alignment imprinting them is the worst way of determining it.

Pug - I know he's quiet and not saying too much but so far I haven't read anything at all I find scummy. I would like him to post more right about now.

Anything specific you want me to comment on? Between the holidays and being sick I haven't look too closely at anything before Christmas so I'll try to go back and look at that sometime soon.

[Pug89]

Your point about DeathNote makes some kind of sense but you aren't looking at my mindset. I was almost sure that Starbuck was scum. Her lynch was the immediate obvious choice. There was no reason to imprint because we didn't need any information.

Even if Starbuck had turned up scum there would still be two more scum alive. Imprinting could have possibly given the town more information that would be useful in finding those other scum.

Why do people keep suspecting me but lynching people I push a case against?

You being scum doesn't preclude you pushing a case against a fellow scum member to look more town if they turn up scum.

Firstly, I'm asking you to explain why obvious buddying to people you think are town is bad.

It is not necessarily bad but in your case you seem to think elvis is town from the very first post of the game.

Can you give me your list of scum suspect and why?

SC is my top suspect, the buddying with elvis makes me uncomfortable as well as his hammer D1 and push for SB day 2.

elvis I'm less suspicious of, and I initially had a town read on her, but the buddying with SC and her reasoning for them being confirmed town seems very weak to me.

Messiah, for the hammer D2, especially as it was before imprints had been decided.

I also want to take closer looks at VMD, farside22, and xRECKONERx when I have time.

[Pug89]

I'm sorry I'm not posting as much as everyone else. I'm not on my computer as much when I'm home as when I'm at school so it is harder for me to keep up. I go back in a little over a week so my posting will increase then.

E_K and SC, I think the problem people have with your buddying is the LEVEL that it is apparent, and the earliness in which it happened.

You give the appearance that you're unflexable in your assurance that the other is town, a view that you seemed to cement VERY VERY early on in the game. Now, you just said you would change if the situation warrants, and thats fine, but its the APPEARANCE that you put out that puts people on edge.

QFT. SC started this from the

first post

of the game by imprinting elvis.

I feel at the moment there are plenty of town tells being ignored or unmentioned because it's put down to more nauseating buddying. There are plenty of reasons to think elvis (and myself) town besides from the one WIFOMic statement.

What would these be exactly?

479: buttonmen "SuperMegaDuperUltraConfirmVote: SerialClergyman" and wants to finish imprint discussion (obsession with imprinting before flips, and since he's been the front-runner for imprints this is pretty much him begging for imprint)

I don't really read it that way. This was after DN's flip and I believe most of the town wanted an imprint for the night not just him. I also didn't see anything I construe as begging for an imprint.

I personally would like to do a second imprint, if only because I would feel a lot more at ease about not possibly being manipulated in some way. I also think that the extra risk of a second imprint is worth the reward, as many roles relate to other PRs (tracker being the most relevant.)

I agree here.

What exactly is the town consensus right now in regards to how to end the day? I'm for 2 imprints but I have a lot to catch up on so I don't know what everyone else wants right know.

I also agree that no NK should be used tonight if that ability is received.

[Pug89]

Pug and Limerickx, can I get scum lists from both of you?

From an earlier post:

SC is my top suspect, the buddying with elvis makes me uncomfortable as well as his hammer D1 and push for SB day 2.

elvis I'm less suspicious of, and I initially had a town read on her, but the buddying with SC and her reasoning for them being confirmed town seems very weak to me.

Messiah, for the hammer D2, especially as it was before imprints had been decided.

I also want to take closer looks at VMD, farside22, and xRECKONERx when I have time.

pug, you commented on a tiny part of my comments about buttonmen. What did you think of my buttonmen case as a whole or my other cases?

Obviously, I think he is town since I voted for him to be imprinted, but I do agree with you about the "shooting is investigating" comment.

[Pug89]

His posts have been big stinking piles of donkey doo doo and his predecessor gave off my favorite scum tell for games of this style.

What was this exactly?

Thats a list from your catchup post way back day 1 after you replaced in.

Good point, Reck links it to refute one of farside's points but it's very outdated and has little bearing on the game at this time since I doubt his scum list has remained the same since that point of the game.

[Pug89]

You know, it amazes me that SC says something like that and no one even bats an eye. You may not believe in scum-slips, but that's some very, very flawed logic at the very least. He considers it a scum-tell that Limerickx has never accused someone innocent when he himself is the person Limerickx has been accusing for a good while now. What kind of pro-town person thinks like that?

That's a good catch and it would seem strange even if Limerickx weren't accusing SC. Admittedly, scum could avoid accusing town players to avoid suspicion but that leaves a small pool of players for them to accuse and would seem not the best strategy.

Imprint:Limerickx

That puts him one away from imprint. Even though I think TheButtonmen is town I'm still not comfortable with only one person being imprinted tonight and Limerickx is the player I get the strongest read town read from along with Buttonmen.

What is iso?

Reading a player's post in isolation.

[Pug89]

You seem more focused on getting a certain number than imprinting according to people you are sure are town. Is that unclear? I am okay with people wanting to imprint more because they think certain players are town. I just think you should be imprinting because you think a person is town and not because you think more people in general should have imprints.

I've always wanted to imprint more than 1 player, but I wouldn't have voted to imprint him if I didn't think he was town and Buttonmen and limerickx are the two players I have the strongest town reads on at this point.

[Pug89]

I just got back to school and I'm busy with beginning of semester stuff so I will try to catch up within the next few days.

[Pug89]

I'm really sorry for not posting much lately, but I have a three day weekend coming up so I'm going to catch up then. It's probably best to go ahead and end the day, I've got a class til 9PM tonight so I'm not going to have to start reading until at least tomorrow night.

[Pug89]

I typed this up in Word and copied and pasted so I'm sorry the formatting is a little hard to read. This is all from D3 I'm going to read the 5 (or however many there are by then) pages from today tomorrow.

Socrates:“Hammering to cut off discussion is about the lamest point one can make when you consider the fact that the game is functionally nightless. You guys are talking, someone hammers, and then... you guys go on talking.”

Except the discussion was over who to imprint and by hammering SC essentially made a decision for the town to not imprint when it was clear the majority of the town wanted to do so.

xRECKONERx:“And, there's nothing to defend against - I say I changed my mind, you say it was opportunistic scum-hopping. It's he said vs she said. You've got ONE point against me, and somehow I'm your biggest scum candidate? Lol.”

Changing your mind is all well and good but if you don’t have any decent justification for it, it is going to look suspicious.

KoC:“You either think I'm town, and therefore would be willing to imprint me, or think I'm scum, and therefore do not. This isn't a multi faction game, people here are scum or town, and the fact that you've got fence posts up your arse for about half the players in the game at this point is most irksome. You don't think I'm scum - ergo, you must think I am town/leaning town. You *should* want town players imprinted as a townie. Saying "I don't think you're scum, but I won't imprint you" is crazy.”

It is impossible to be 100% certain of someone’s alignment until they are lynched. Also, it has been the town wants to keep the imprint pool small and there could be other players who the town prefers above you.

Elvis:“Of the six people voting for each imprint, we have 5 people occurring on each one:
buttonmen, limerick, KoC, farside, pug
That's pretty interesting that the lists are almost exactly the same.”

I think you’re reading too much into it, although it may be useful if one of them flips scum.

xRECKONERx: ”Actually, I think Elvis is town. If we quicklynch me, please lynch farside after my flip for tunneling soooooooooo hardcore.”

I don’t like this. Also, you’ve mentioned farside tunneling before but I’m still not sure exactly what it is that makes you so sure she is scum.

Elvis:” This should make things easy for you guys. Either me, farside, and SC are the scum who have made a wild flailing gambit to get farside imprinted, or farside is town and the scum don't want her imprinted.”

Why are those the only two options? And why isn’t it possible that people simply want to limit the number of imprints to two.

[Pug89]

Imprinting the same three people over and over again means one of two things:

At least one of them eventually gets an investigative role which can help us out.

or

Scum eventually has to kill, meaning it's one of those three.

1. In terms of an investigative imprint it doesn't matter if we imprint the same people or not they will still have the same chance of receiving an investigative imprint. Obviously keeping the pool of imprinted players small is better to limit the number of possibilities if a NK occurs, but I don't think we should necessarily limit ourselves to those three for the rest of the game.

2. Why do scum have to kill (Assuming one of the three even is scum becuase otherwise scum have no NK)? Unless you are also suggesting we NL until an investigative imprint comes up, but I believe you said you wanted to lynch KOC.

[Pug89]

I don't know that we should assume that the mod will give imprints based on anything other than randomness. I havent heard of anything to suggest that.

That's a good point, but on the other hand giving a player a doc role when there is no possibility of a NK seems unfair.

Although, now that I think about it, 2 vigs and zero information roles is weird. And claiming to have gotten a vig would be a convenient claim for a scumbag since it contains no information whatsoever.

True, but there are other roles he could have claimed, especially given his comments about vigging the day before.

I also think these things are weird:
-adament about vigging, then decided not to
-said he would vig SC, and then today said he would have killed me
-says he was worried one of the other imprinters is scum who would use a NK, hasn't said who he thinks is scum of the other two... and yesterday he imprinted limerick and said he thought farside was town. So why was he so scared of them NKing all the sudden?

I agree with your second two points, but as for buttonmen not vigging when he said he would the town was clearly against anyone using a NK and using it would bring a lot of suspicion on the person who did it. Button may have decided not too simply to avoid the resulting suspicion (more than he is already getting anyway).

In regards to Farside, as you yourself said, Vigs are decent lynch targets, by claiming Doc she protects herself from that and if a NK does happen down the line she would get the suscipon from being imprinted however people would initally go for someone who had claimed Vig which would give the scum the free march they needed to win.

I don't know that that is necessarily the case. If a NK were to occur, I would take a closer look at anyone who as been imprinted regardless of claimed role.

First of all someone had a claim order. Second I was given a doc role and wanted to see if scum was going to be given something that said they were imprinted without a character name. I wasn't sure what info if any scum would get.

Actually, you said you wanted to wait for button and limerickx to claim before CTD posted a claim order. What makes you think that scum wouldn't be given the same information regarding their imprint?

Would have protected Serial Cleargyman. As the two other imprinteded have stated they wouldn't be vigging if they got it and scum know his alignment and if he's town they could have killed him and put a great deal of suspicion on me and probably gotten me me lynched.

I find this strange. That's a fair point about someone killing SC to frame you, but if you are town and get lynched that's just going to make everyone else imprinted (as of know two people) look more suspicious.

If I was scum why would I not shot anyone if I was given the ability?
IE: I could have framed you if I was scum and you were town quiet easily.

If you had framed him, him turning up town would make you look much more suspicious. Even you hadn't tried to frame him, any NK at all would make the three imprinted players look worse.

I think Pug may very well be scum! Yay!

Care to expand on that?

KoC is moderately scummy and a good lynch, we've already imprinted Buttonmen once, imprinting him again = autoinfo. If he's scum, then he'll probably kill eventually and we can pin it back on him or you or Lim. If he's town, then we're imprinting a townie again.

He doesn't have to kill. If any NK does occur he is going to be the first person the town looks at because of his stated willingness to use a NK.

Also pug is starting to bother me. As town when life is too busy and I think I'm a detrament I have asked to be replaced. To me that is the town thing to do and I'm sure people would disagree but if your town and your too busy to help or post in a game your not helping the town.

I've already apologized for my sparse posting, but I'm caught up now (the main reason I didn't post for a while was because I didn't have time to go through everything) and have more time now so I shouldn't have a problem keeping up with the game.

[Pug89]

@xRECKONERx: You never explained why you thought I was scum, unless I missed it.

[Pug89]

Limerick or button, do you want to vig KoC tonight and we'll go after a different lynch? Seems like a waste to string him up.

You don't know they will get a NK ability tonight, unless they're scum of course. Also who would you want to lynch instead?

[Pug89]

Okay, this is what I think we should do:

We can lynch buttonmen and imprint nobody

OR

We can lynch KoC and imprint some people

In terms of the lynch, I think I would be fine with either player (I need to reread both of them though) but I'm not for imprinting tonight, and if we do imprint tonight I don't button to have an imprint if he is not lynched.

[Pug89]

So my theory is this. Right now no one has a clue what imprints will be given. I just want to play it safe in case the mod has a lie detector imprint to be given out.
In case this imprint is in the game I think everyone should say something like this:

I, (player name here) am an ordinary active.

Seems unlikely, but it can't hurt.

I, Pug89, am an ordinary active.

If you're fine with both players, why do you need to re-read them? Why don't ou reread them then let us know your thoughts?

I still had to decide who to vote for.

I did quick rereads of both of them:
KOC: There are certain things I don't like. First, there is very little content from him since his catch up post on Dec 31st and Jan 1st. Second, his ISO post 10 which seemed like him trying to force his way into an imprint. On the other hand VMD (whom KOC replaced) didn't vote for SB day 2, and wasn't voting day 1 although I believe she said she wanted DN lynched, but at that point it was obvious DN was scum so it doesn't indicate much.

TheButtonmen: I mostly had a town read on him up until he got imprinted (I did vote imprint him after all), but since then he as done several things that bother me. First his shooting is investigating comment. Then him stating that he would have protected SC if he had been given a doc role, which makes little sense given he has been gunning for him most of the game. He said it was because one of the others could kill SC to frame him but that seems weak since if that happened and he was lynched there would only be two other suspects. Also, looking at the vote record he wasn't voting for DN day 1 and continued voting for SC day 2.

Vote:TheButtonmen

In the end TheButtonmen is more dangerous than KOC if he is scum since he has a NK. While I doubt he would use it anytime soon if more scum get NKs they can have multiple kills in one night which could be enough to win them the game and the town wouldn't see it coming.

I believe that puts him at 4 votes.

[Pug89]

Shooting is a forminvestigating, you start the next day with their aligment known.Also what about me saying I would doc SC do you find strange?

True, but if you are wrong the town looses a player and scum are closer to winning the game. Also, only one person makes the decision the rest of the town gets no say in who is targeted. I could also see that comment as justification for any NK you did use.

About SC: It seems strange since you have been voting him most of the game. Framing you also seems highly unlikely given the small number of possibilities besides you.

[Pug89]

btw just reading the game from the beginning personally I would have taken the scummiest player each day, imprinted them- if they claim vanilla, non-verifiable or scummy role then lynch them. 8-4 nightless isn't even THAT bad.

That doesn't seem like a great idea. The roles are assigned randomly so none could be particularly scummy and lots of roles are unverifiable. Plus giving someone you think is scum an ability is a bad idea.

Pug's lack of participation sucks.

Is that it?

[Pug89]

Any other thoughts about the game?

Right now I'm for a KOC lynch today, although he has barely posted anything today. Wasn't he getting replaced? I'm not going to vote for him now because he already has 3 votes and another would put him a L-1, but more than likely that will be were my vote goes today.

I'm going to pull an epic gut scum read and vote CTD, even though I've got no chance of lynching him.

Any other reason than you gut?

[Pug89]

You're willing to vote me, but essentially, you want the hammer, since you refuse to put me at L-1, is that it?

Vote: KOC

I was going to give you more time to respond, but clearly that's not going to happen and at this point your lynch is pretty much a forgone conclusion.

Also, why are you imprinting who you are? At one point you said you were for imprinting the same people who had been previously imprinted but you didn't vote to imprint either of the previous imprintees still in the game.

Listen. I'm trying here. Really I am but your not making sense to me.
If lynching KOC is a good thing and you agree he is scummy enough to be lynched tomorrow. Why wait for night actions if your going to lynch him no matter what?

I agree I don't see what difference waiting a day is going to make in regards to KOC, unless an investigation is used on him but there are better targets for an investigation. Also there is nothing saying we can't do both a lynch and imprint.

[Pug89]

I tried to get on the site yesterday and it wouldn't load for me for some reason and I have a test to study for later today, so I'll catch up tonight.

[Pug89]

But pug's vote also does not make sense since pug had voted to imprint buttonmen the day before. These two votes are the most suspect, the most opportunistic.

I believe I addressed this when I voted for Buttonmen but The things that made me question him happened after he was imprinted.

Pug and reckoner were also the last on the KOC wagon yesterday, only bussing when they absolutely had to, when several of us refused to compromise and give up on the KOC lynch.

I clearly stated I was OK with his lynch the day before and voted before buttonmen instead partially because of the potential for a NK. I also stated my intention to vote for him at the beginning of the day yesterday and didn't then because that would out him at L-1 and wanted to at least give him a chance to respond. As soon as it was clear that wasn't going to happen I voted for him, but it wasn't like it came out of nowhere.

The more I look at the wagons, the more I think limerick or CTD are likely to be scum.

Would you care to expand on this? I know you mentioned thinking CTD was scum yesterday, but I don't recall you saying why.

[Pug89]

He also acted horrendously scummy towards KoC's wagon yesterday and KoC calling him out on his illogical vote here: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 01#2106301 looked like bad distancing. I agree with you that elvis is town, that's the only other read I feel confident of atm.

Are you referring to me not voting him right away, because I already said that was because I didn't want to rush to end the day. In fact Reck hammered KOC 12 minutes after I did vote for him.

As for KOC's "distancing" as you put it, I obviously don't know what he was thinking but at that point he was pretty much lynched, it could have been a a last ditch attempt to avoid his lynch although it was an extremely weak one.

Does anyone have an objection to farside's town read on me?

I most certainly do. You have done several things that set off my scumdar. Off the top of head you randomly proclaimed me to be scum D5 and didn't provide any explanation when I asked for one, and you switching from your insistence to NL and imprint yesterday to hammering KOC when it was obvious he was going to be lynched.

3)HOWEVER, the imprinting of buttonmen went through, while the imprint wagon on pug died.
-->This is strange. It looks like me and farside unvoted pug. I think I started to feel pug wasn't contributing or something. So this is perhaps why the wagon died. But makes me wondering if the pug wagon was scum fueled or not?

I believe the wagon died because people thought that Reck was pushing to imprint me.

As for it being scum fueled; you, farside, and SC were the first three on it, so you would have to tell me.


I'm really not impressed with ortolan's contributions so far. He seems to be following the crowd (asking if he should be voting for KOC when he first entered the game, and then voting me when most of the town's attention came my way) and at the same time doesn't appear to be putting much effort into the game. He doesn't read the game up till he entered it and besides going after what appears to be the easiest lynch doesn't comment on anything else besides some setup discussion that involves imprinting the scummiest player.

no way am I trudging through 74 pages. If something interests me and I want to read it I'll look at it.

I know 74 pages is a lot but you should have known about it before you agreed to replace into the game.

I find my style of play is far more effective; the one that involves voting scum.

You mean the style that involves ignoring large amounts of the game and throwing out the easiest vote with little explanation.

I never said I had read the game

I have also said who my top suspect is. Are you in fact...reading my posts?

You did say you were reading the game from the beginning, but apparently that is not the case.

There is one other peculiar character in this scenario though, and that is Pug: He was the second person to point the finger at DN (this was before the Messiah vote), but didn't follow it up with a vote and in general pretty much ignored DN for the next 6 pages. Smells like distancing.

I'm generally pretty conservative with my vote, especially on D1. As for the distancing, as you put it, I believe the period of time you are referring to was when I was finishing finals and moving out of my dorm for the semester so there were a few days when I didn't have a lot of time to check the thread.

[Pug89]

Pug, why do you consider yourself the easiest lynch? From where I'm sitting, you're not top of the list for most people.

I was at the beginning of the day, at least for some people. Besides ortolan I know elvis mentioned she would prefer my lynch today and Reck seems sure I am scum.

[Pug89]

Also why do you think I haven't been nightkilling after being imprinted?

Because we would have lynched you if somebody turned up dead.

as opposed to...lynching me anyway, where I don't get to make any nightkills beforehand

You were trying use the fact that limerick (or you once you replaced him) did not NK to indicate that you are town, elvis was pointing out that taking such an action would be suicidal. Limerick not NKing is a null tell given the town's stated intention to lynch someone who uses a NK.

did anyone just get a mega-distancing vibe from the last two posts?

The only distancing could be on Reck's part since farside has stated she believes Reck is town. Which you would know if you had read the game.

Vote: ortolan

He seemed more concerned with blending in than analysis and once suspicion turned to him his reasoning that he is town is based on a weak WIFOM.

That puts him at L-1.

[Pug89]

I was in the middle of typing up my post when SC asked you to vote and had already decided to vote for ortolan, I had no idea whether you were going to vote or not. If I really wanted a quick lynch I would have waited for you or someone else to vote for ortolan and hammered him then, or just stay out of the vote entirely.

[Pug89]

@Pug: Who do you think is the last 2 scum in this game and why?

ortolan obviously, he seems to be desperately trying to find anything to deflect suspicion from himself, but his reasoning is based on little more than some weak accusations of distancing. Other than that, my next highest suspicions are Reck and SC. SC did some things early in the game( late D1 and D2 mostly) that I don't like and I'm not really sure why ortolan is convinced he is town. Reck's attitude towards yesterday's lynch (NL and then switching to hammering when KOC's lynch was assured) as well a few accusations he has made that had little or no reasoning behind him (at one point he insisted farside was digging herself a hole and he said he thought I was scum but I think I asked for an explanation on both and didn't receive an explanation for either.)

looked up, sure enough farside replaced Jason. Blatant distancing.

This isn't the first time you have said something is distancing when there is little to indicate that is the case. Jason didn't make a single post in the game it isn't unreasonable to ask were he is.

elvis and SerialClergyman are incredibly obvious town. I would say CTD is too but I'm sure he's capable of being sneaky too so I wouldn't commit him to a town read just yet. He would of course have to be revisited when Pug and farside are lynched and flip town, but I somehow doubt either of them would flip town.

You're quick to say a large chunk of the players left in the game are town and you seem very confident in your reads in general, but I'm not seeing a lot to back them up.

I know (and already claimed) that I got a vig ability from imprinting- getting this over and over again would be useless, seeing as we already agreed not to vig. So I can only assume elvis (not that I doubt she is town) doesn't have a vig (she either has something else that she claimed, or something else that she didn't claim). I am wondering if she has claimed what ability she has. There is no point imprinting someone who is "obv-town" unless their ability has some use.

This post confuses me. Do you understand how the imprints work exactly? Elvis has never been imprinted so she doesn't have an ability and as I understand it imprints would be different every time.

Yer so basically farside claimed a practically useless doctor ability in contrast to the (proven) vig claim by thebuttonmen and the (subjectively proven) vig claim by me.

How are either of your roles proven?

I'm a little unsure as to why yesterday started with a vote on KoC instead of waiting for claims though, CTD.

Claims on what exactly? We didn't imprint last night so there isn't anything to claim.

[Pug89]

Because the more I think about it, the mod giving out two vigs and a doc seems rather pointless. And Button flipped town. And I've been suspicious of her for awhile.

How is that pointless? A doc makes perfect sense with two killing roles in play.

Well Buttonmen flipped town so you know he was telling the truth, and I'm about to flip town so you know I was telling the truth.

While you flipping town would mean you are telling the truth, until that happens the rest of the town has no reason to take your word for it.

summary: farside and pug are scum, this is obvious if you read my posts

How is that obvious? As far as I know you haven't even read the entire game yet, but you manage to find some supposed connection between farside and I that everyone else missed?

Well - you weren't given a choice, so it's not a scum choice. Buttonman wasn't scum, so it's not scum=offensive (vig), town=defensive (doc). I don't know what further evidence suggests it's anything but random.

I agree it is probably random, but there really hasn't been enough imprints done to be sure. Either way I don't think discussing this too much is going to help much.

If he flips town I'm going after farside.

Why exactly?

Reckoner, stop begging for an imprint and whining about farside.

QFT. It annoying and definitly not helping the town.

[Pug89]

I want to hear his thoughts on every player in the game to see where he really stands on everyone.

I'm studying for a test right now, so I don't have time right now, but I'll get to this and catch up on Saturday.

[Pug89]

I for one find a doc role very pro-town.

I know, that's probably why you fakeclaimed it rather than the actual scum bonus you received

Does anyone note besides me the ort is using WIFOM to try and get a lynch on me?

I do. A large part of his case on you seems to be based on his belief that you are lying about your imprint on the basis that a doc ability is useless, but safe to claim, when having a doc with two vigs that night could clearly be useful and I'm not sure were he is getting this idea.

I wanted people to look for themselves and see. Do you still want me to explain this or are you just going to ignore it?

So you accused something of being scummy without explanation and expect someone else to come up with a reason it is?

WIFOM is WIFOM. I don't think a good mod with these mechanics would give out randomized roles. I think they'd have a set of roles which can benefit each other or play off of each other. Handing out random, illogical roles like that has the ability to completely unbalance the game.

I agree with you to a certain extant, certain roles would be useless if only on player was imprinted or there was no killing role, but there is not enough information to say for certain there is not a certain amount of randomness.

I have it figured out, but honestly right now I'm studying for Bio and I'm too lazy to go back and explain it all out point by point. Basically, it was the way in which you were attacking him that seemed hollow.

After the lynch, if ortolan flips town, would you make sure to explain this? There's really no point in going into it until we know ortolan's role, but I'm interested to know your logic here.

Farside-scum wanted me to look even scummier if she flips scum. So she decides to buddy me by finding a 'omg he has to be town!' thing, and is the sole imprint on me. If she gets lynched, looking back, it'd look like a blatant buddying and I'd be lynched because I've been playing scummy the entire game and I'm affiliated with a known scum (farside). Then when I decided to attack her head on and express my scumminess, she first unimprints, then gradually builds back up into a vote so it doesn't look like a knee-jerk reaction.

Even if farside were to flip scum (which I don't think she is), I don't think that would have much to do with any case to lynch you. You said it yourself you've played scummy and "expressing you scumminess", as you put it, by attacking farside isn't helping any. Also, the phrase "expressing you scumminess" seems like a strange choice of words to me.

First thing I'd like to say, I like Reckoner's hammer on KOC. To me it doesn't seem like bussing, but like a guy who consistantly enjoys hammering. It spreads his hammer on button man a bit thinner in my mind.

So if he hammers all the time, that makes it OK?

I see all of that, and yet it seems like a townie who just has made bad actions at the wrong time. I mean, I'll grant they seem kinda scummy, but WAY too obvious. plus he did eventually hammer KOC because it's his style to hammer.

Or he hammered him because he realized that the town did not want to go along with his plan to NL and imprint and KOC was doomed anyway.

wait why is farside voting herself to get another useless "doctor" ability? Scum much?

If she were to get the same ability every time she were imprinted like you think, even though there is no indication of that being the case, and she is scum what would be the point of her trying to get another imprint since she would keep the ability she got last time?

[Pug89]

It's the way he turned on both Buttonmen and Ortolan, who were his top two town picks for almost the entirety of the game beforehand. It's also the fact that his reasoning for this was very weak (granted, I felt the cases against both players were weak to begin with; I assume not everyone will agree), and certainly not sufficient to explain the complete U-turn he did on those two.

While I did have strong town tells on them at the time of imprinting I would hardly say it was for almost the entirety of the game. Button's comments about vigging as investigating shortly after he was imprinted made me second guess my read on him. I'll admit ortolan replacing limerickx threw of my read of him and at one point I actually almost changed my mind about ort because of it but he continued to use weak reasoning in his case against farside and I and clearly didn't take the effort to undersatand the mechanics of the game.

As for me voting to lynch players I had previously voted to imprint, I'm not the only one. Reck voted to imprint buttonman and voted to lynch him and farside both voted to imprint and lynch buttonman and lim/ort.

[Pug89]

Pug, who do you think is scum?

I don't have time to go into it right now but Reck is at the top of my list right now followed by SC although that is mostly for stuff early in the game I would have to look at his more recent play.

[Pug89]

I'm not really sure what you want from me at this point since the town has pretty much already made its decision and I'm at L-1, but if there is anything else you want me to address I'll try to get to it.

[Pug89]

Why the fuck is Pug not lynched yet?

Yeah, I'm honestly expected to be lynched sometime last weekend and I've basically been at L-1 for most of the day. I'm on Spring Break right now and I really don't think that there is anything I can do at this point to change anything, but if by some miracle I'm not lynched before I get back to school I try to post a defense and a more detailed scum list, but don't wait on me or anything because the town has clearly made a decision.