Mini 889 - Shopping Frenzy (Over)

[julienvonwolfe]

vote: Torqez

You know why.

[julienvonwolfe]

vote: Torqez

Bandwagon!

GASP at L-3 already. All aboard the lynch train. CHOO CHOO!

Such vacuity.

unvote, vote: muh

[julienvonwolfe]

I didnt notice that, But people seem to have a hate toward torqez.

Meaning?

[julienvonwolfe]

Please do feel free to explain the change of votes when you're ready.

[julienvonwolfe]

How many other games have you played here, Chinaman?

[julienvonwolfe]

D'oh.

Chinaman, why no random vote? You appear anxious to not miss the RVS, but then you don't participate in it.

[julienvonwolfe]

As far as getting this game going, I could go for a no lynch or a lynching of Torqez. Doesn't matter to me much either way. If Torqez is town, chances are that we would lynch a townie D1 anyway, if he's scum, then all the better. If we no-lynch and scum don't get lucky and kill the Cop if there is one, then we have more info for D2.

1. Has there been discussion of a no-lynch in any other games you've played on this site?

2. What benefit to the town is there of lynching a hypothetically-townie Torqez if we just blindly lynch him? Or of lynching a hypothetically-scum Torqez, for that matter?

[julienvonwolfe]

We only get information by seeing who wants who lynched, etc. If we all blindly agree to lynch or nolynch without trying to scumhunt, we get no information, which only benefits scum.

[julienvonwolfe]

Sweep, do you consider that trying to get somebody lynched with little-to-no evidence is something that most scum would do?

I know this is WIFOM, but it seems to go against the classic scum psychology of 'not wanting to stick your neck out'.

[julienvonwolfe]

And Wulfy, following the cop in newbie games? 50% of newbie games don't even have a cop, of course.

[julienvonwolfe]

Not at all. I had considered that Sweep might be scum looking for an easy target.

[julienvonwolfe]

@DDD: Is that a policy lynch then? I'd prefer a replacement at this point seeing as we're only 3 pages in, if we assume he will flake.

Sure, call it that if you like. Seriously, I had a large normal game a few months ago where the entire scum team was extremely apathetic about playing and yet none of them replaced out. Why? Because players usually enjoy being scum and feel an obligation to the role more than they do as a random townsperson. So Torquez was providing pre-emptive cover for their lame scummy behavior in the future and we should string 'em up.

I agree with the sentiments; however, I'm not sure that it justifies a vote on Torqez.

I am honestly befuddled by muh's reaction to this.

[julienvonwolfe]

JL, what are your own opinions of your activity in this game?

[julienvonwolfe]

This game is so boring. The only interesting thing is DDD vs Torqez, and I don't have any reads on them either way.

The other players need to chime in.

[julienvonwolfe]

Well, partly to see what comes of it and partly to try and inject some life into this game:

unvote, vote: Torqez

[julienvonwolfe]

Wulfy, mind elaborating on how I was 'blindly following the heaviest wagon'? What do you mean by 'heaviest'?

[julienvonwolfe]

Wulfy, mind elaborating on how I was 'blindly following the heaviest wagon'? What do you mean by 'heaviest'?

Most votes, though I could have been mistaken.

You are indeed. The only vote on Torqez at the time of my vote was DDD's, according to the votecount five posts above my vote.

It wasn't random at all. I am following DDD's logic to see what comes of it. So far, nothing makes me want to stop following DDD's logic - except perhaps for muh, who I was previously voting, and is now lurking.

Initially I was feeling askance about Chinaman, but they seem to have improved their posting.

[julienvonwolfe]

Liam, how is my play bandwagony?

[julienvonwolfe]

JVW:

Your vote on torquez came with very little reasoning and at a time when the only debate going was torq vs DDD...

so?

and subsequent posts have had nothing to add except for dealing with things that directly concern your own defense.

Yes, fair enough, I haven't been active enough. I usually try to post at least once per day but I haven't kept to that schedule. With deadline approaching, I need to fix that and fast.

I believe DJ's bulletproof townie claim, since all it would take is a cop or a tracker to catch him if he were mafia. If there's a vig, they can target him if they want, I guess, but if he doesn't die they shouldn't claim tomorrow. No need to have two outed power-roles for the mafia to pick and choose from.

On this basis (and because I think DDD's logic on Torqez is actually weak) I will

unvote, vote: Josh Lyman

for pushing for a DJ lynch.

[julienvonwolfe]

I'm not convinced by Josh's case on muh.

[julienvonwolfe]

Regarding muh: I just think that the way he phrased it sounded like he was trying to appear innocent, as though he actually hadn't realized the game had started. That is honestly how I parsed his post 188, so I checked his posts; when I found TWENTY of them, I basically lost it. Yes, I have a life, but I do know which games I'm in, whether or not my browser crashed or whatever. I still think his attitude is very anti-town, especially since he promised to be more active; he had two posts within 30 minutes, and now nothing. Can we say "active lurking?" IMO, muh should rectify this. Soon.

unvote
FoS: muh

If you're so sure about your vote on muh, why the unvote?

[julienvonwolfe]

liam: the case is weak. join the josh lyman wagon. its stronger.

I'll switch if I have to (to ensure a lynch), but I'm sticking with JVW because I don't like how he's managing staying under the radar. That tells me someone's keeping the pressure aimed elsewhere and that sounds like scummy teamwork to me.

I'm sorry I wasn't on. Internet went down for a few days, unexpectedly.

Liam, tell me how 186, 191, and 200 are based off anybody else's thoughts?

[julienvonwolfe]

Your reluctance to wagon is noted.

[julienvonwolfe]

Can you clarify your last sentence, Wulfy?

[julienvonwolfe]

Wow great lynch guys. One scum down. And welcome Albert and i really liked that old avatar DDD this one makes me want to punch it in the face. And I guess were back at RVS.

Looking back at Josh vs Muh, I think we would be well served by investigating the connections a little more closely. I don't like this post, nor Muh's over-deliberate explanations of his vote, nor Josh's case on Muh (could be distancing).

Vote: Muh

[julienvonwolfe]

Hmm, waiting on a reaction from muh to my vote.

[julienvonwolfe]

The logical course of action would be for you to explain why you made the posts that I dislike, and/or to explain why I am misinterpreting them. You could also present a counterargument as to why Josh's little crusade against you was not distancing.

The fact that you haven't done so suggests that perhaps you admit to the accusations, in which case you're admitting you're scum. I don't think that was what you intended, though?

[julienvonwolfe]

Why didnt you like this post I made

Wow great lynch guys. One scum down. And welcome Albert and i really liked that old avatar DDD this one makes me want to punch it in the face. And I guess were back at RVS.

and what over deliberate explanation did i ever make

"Wow great lynch guys?" - Why did you need to post that? Was it to show the town that we'd lynched scum and that you approved? Is that not taken for granted already?


"Welcome Albert, etc..." - Why do you need to post this? It's spam - or worse, buddying.


"were back at RVS" - that would be great for scum, wouldn't it?

Im just going to join the wagon because of the deadline. it seemed to pass by so fast. So we should probably just get on a good wagon for now.

Vote Josh Lyman

This is an over deliberate deadline wagoning if I ever saw one. You explain your vote three different ways in three sentences despite having the same basic reasoning in each.

[julienvonwolfe]

Okay, so Muh's defense is a sack of shit. I'd like people to chime in with their thoughts on Muh, if they're checking in over the holidays.

(I'm thinking he's scummy, but I'm not that sure of his alignment. I think the tells I collected are weak, and that there's not a lot he could do to refute them. It's players like these that I find provide interesting data - not from them alone, but from the way others interact with them. Perhaps it won't be useful straight away, but it will probably be useful in some way later in the game.)

[julienvonwolfe]

PE; a good point about Chinaman. I was going to comment about his activity and continual promising of a re-read, but I decided not to be mean over Christmas.

[julienvonwolfe]

The weekend's a few days away. Since you don't work crazy hours on Thursday, can you take 30 minutes out of your holiday time to read up a little and post something? If not, ask for a replacement.

[julienvonwolfe]

if you think my defense was poor what would you have done in my place. What would you have said that would have made your defense a sack of gold.

And did you read my post or not?

To answer your question, I wouldn't have said those things in the first place, hence no need to defend.

[julienvonwolfe]

Back from holidays, folks. Muh's giving me huge scum vibes. I concur with PE's 304. DJ's 305 isn't good; saying that you think that one of three people is scum is hedging your bets quite heftily.

This post of ABR's is notable for the way it spouts nonsense and completely ignores muh:

Chinaman is a good bandwagon. Like Rummy always said, the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. Simply because you don't have evidence that something does exist does not mean you have evidence of that something not existing. There are known knowns and then there are known unknowns. But there are also unknown unknowns; things we don't know that we don't know. In this case, that would be Chinaman's alignment, which brings us back to Chinaman being a good bandwagon.

[julienvonwolfe]

Rargh. But fair enough.

This thread needs moar posts from lurkers. I'm looking at Torqez, Chinaman, and Scott...

[julienvonwolfe]

So, things are shifting from a muh wagon to a chinaman wagon, which is fair enough.

Then Muh claims Macho Doc, which sounds pretty stupid to me since having two docs in the same game is pretty unusual. Is this just a play on the 'too scummy to be scummy' fallacy, or is it us trying to out-guess the mod? Bah.

I can go with a Chinaman lynch for today. I'll wait for a votecount. By my own count, it would put Chinaman at L-1, but I would like to be sure.

[julienvonwolfe]

I too like Adel's post, and Chinaman's posts since my last post make me a little happier with him.

Adel, since you briefly voted ABR, can you expand on your thoughts about him? Did you simply agree with DDD?

[julienvonwolfe]

It seems strange that you appear to have nothing to say now.

[julienvonwolfe]

muh's power claim isn't surprising, but the fact that he's a macho doc too is interesting. It certainly solves why wulfy and he would be macho, to prevent a nigh unwinnable endgame for scum.

Can you elaborate on this a bit more?

[julienvonwolfe]

So your logic could apply equally well to yourself as it could to chinaman? I'm a bit taken aback by developments. Basically, ABR and DDD decide to vote each other, Adel does an 180 on Muh's doc claim and there's two days until deadline. Huh.

Anyway, Chinaman seems to be on L-1 now. He seems to have claimed VT - is that correct, Chinaman?

[julienvonwolfe]

...oh wait. I too think I believe Muh's claim now, thinking it over.

unvote

[julienvonwolfe]

Adel, I didn't like 302 and 303. 302 seems unnecessarily defensive. Its followup, 303, seems like an attempt to patch the damage. More a gut thing than anything. I also agree with DDD's 300. This in combination with my earlier questioning of him led to the 'huge scum vibes'.

[julienvonwolfe]

This in combination with my earlier questioning of him led to the 'huge scum vibes'.

which earlier questioning?

What about his answers made you think that he was scum?

My iso 25 - 28. Also, your interpretation of DDD's vote on Muh is interesting and not one that had occured to me.

I didn't like Muh's answer in 267 because of the way it completely avoids saying why he said what he did (apart from thinking he was back at the RVS, which is a pretty weird statement in itself.)

I also didn't like 282 for asking me to defend him for him.


ABR, Chinaman is a better lynch.

[julienvonwolfe]

Chinaman, since you can post, why is ABR practically confirmed to you? Do you have a very special reason for this?

And no, I don't want to abandon this game.

[julienvonwolfe]

Sorry I haven't been around. Busy times in RL with family visiting. I'll make a more substantial post tomorrow.

ABR, for somebody who doesn't want to play, why are you playing?

[julienvonwolfe]

So, some thoughts and ramblings on the Josh lynch and ramifications, considering that it's probable that scum were on the wagon. I should've done this yesterday, I guess. Here's the final list of people on the wagon, with dead folks removed:

julienvonwolfe, don_johnson, Debonair Danny DiPietro, muh316, CallMeLiam

- Liam's posts are notable for how he seemed to prefer lynching me over Josh, despite his case on me being pretty sloppy really. This is probably notable only because he switched quite late in the Josh wagon, which makes it look like a late bus.

I might be trying to read too much into this, but you could take this post as an attempt to cause a no-lynch by trying to coerce a scumbuddy into claiming a power role. There's nothing in particular about his post that makes me think this, other than the fact that it is in a prime position for bussing, and that it's what I would want were I Josh's scumbuddy in that position:

I'll catch up with the game on Day 2, for now we need to lynch

unvote, vote: josh lyman

Josh, if you're a power role claim now, it might not be too late.

- I'm okay with muh's and DJ's positions on the wagon, given Josh's interactions with the pair. I have no problems with either of their claims at this point, so...

- PE's dead and was town. 3D was fourth on the wagon. His iso 10 is a defense of Josh. His iso 19 is kind of a defense combined with a distancing post. Perhaps it's confirmation bias, but I can easily read his iso 21 as coming from a frustrated scumbuddy.


I am incredibly unconvinced by the ABR wagon, especially as he is replacing out. Therefore,

vote: Debonair Danny DiPietro

[julienvonwolfe]

I'm good with a massclaim.

[julienvonwolfe]

(DDD can respond to my vote on him yesterday, too)

[julienvonwolfe]

1, 2, 3. I am the (a?) motion detector, see role PM in post 2.

4. Faction: the town
5. Targets, Actions and/or Results if your role has them: Night one I targeted Torqez, night two DJ and night three Adel. Each time, I was told that there was no motion.
6. Reasons for your targets: Torqez - no real reason, other than my having a bit of a difficult time reading Torqez. I figured any information that I could dig up on him would help. DJ, I finally figured out that I could test his bulletproof townie claim by seeing if he targeted anybody. If he happened to target someone with an ability, I would know that he wasn't a bulletproof townie (at least, he wasn't a bulletproof townie without any other abilities). Adel - same reasoning as Torqez.
7. name of the next person who will claim: I think that's it.



I guess this supports but doesn't prove DJ's claim.

It's almost a worthless role if you get no result, IMO, unless it directly contradicts something said in thread. (From a game setup point of view, I think I quite like it.)

[julienvonwolfe]

Erm, my role doesn't clear Adel. It only tells me if the person I targeted targeted a person with an ability. DJ claimed Liam's kill, and Adel doesn't seem to dispute this. Therefore, if Adel were mafia, she must have targeted semioldguy, who was a vanilla townie and had no abilities. This would have returned 'no motion'.

[julienvonwolfe]

Can we reconsider Muh's claim? How likely is it that there were two macho docs?

It's important to do this, I think, since we're kind of depending on his protect as we go into tomorrow.

[julienvonwolfe]

Okay, posts I don't like from Muh:

Im just going to join the wagon because of the deadline. it seemed to pass by so fast. So we should probably just get on a good wagon for now.

Vote Josh Lyman

Wow great lynch guys. One scum down. And welcome Albert and i really liked that old avatar DDD this one makes me want to punch it in the face. And I guess were back at RVS.

but what happened. Who killed him. And Liam probably blocked me because I protected him. That fool.

The fact that he claims to have protected scum last night is pretty strange. We have no proof that Liam did in fact target him, and no proof that muh is in fact a doctor. So I'm viewing this with a healthy dose of scepticism, especially given what could be his late bus and scummy "woot go us" post following it.

On the other hand, how many macho docs is it usual to have in one setup? It seems to be almost nonsensical to have only one, since then they're basically just a normal doctor.

[julienvonwolfe]

I think lynching Liam works pretty well for the town.

From my point of view, Adel and I are confirmed townies. This means that if we lynch Liam, the last scum is in either Muh or DDD. If I'm killed tonight, my flip will confirm Adel town tomorrow, and I think that leaves the game in capable hands at the very least. If Adel is killed tonight, I will have viewed one of either DDD and Muh and can work out who the last mafia is from that. So, it works out well for town either way in lylo; either there is a confirmed innocent, or a motion detector, which is sweet. That's without factoring in the possibility that Muh is a macho doc.

(Working on the basis that Muh is indeed a macho doc I took a quick look at DDD and Liam's mentions of each other. There's not much to see aside from some potential early-day distancing, a squabble over abbreviations and a small debate about Liam's asking Muh to claim. This post, as Adel pointed out, could also point to Muh being scum.)

So anyway, let's get this done:

vote: don_johnson

[julienvonwolfe]

This game was fun for me, since I was onto the scum at least (well, the scum and DDD). I wasn't onto D_J's case at all, but Adel fixed that. It was great playing with all of you, and neat to try out this role, which I haven't played before.

Thanks for modding, nhammen - well, apart from the whole "with an ability" thing.

I have to say, I'm intrigued by this setup. I'm not sure that I would be overjoyed as scum finding out that I had only two people in my team - and I would've hated to be in Liam's shoes Day One, bussing Josh - but I can see why you went this way.