Mini 881 - Moviestar Madness - Game Over

[MordyS]

Alright Mr Demille, I'm ready for my close...

Oh! New day. Well...

Vote: DrippingGoofball

For not giving me a hug along with everyone else.

[MordyS]

A Mafia pet peeve of mine is when someone calls something scummy in the RVS stage that isn't actually scummy. Not that I think DragonsofSummer just committed a scum tell, but hell, any excuse to get out of the RVS and into the actually game.

Unvote
Vote: DragonsSummer

No, voting DGB isn't a scum tell, especially since for all we know, DGB is scum. Badlogic is scummy!

[MordyS]

Not sure why... because if you're going to breadcrumb you should just do it? Anyway, I'm not sure about the whole role speculation thing. Could just be Psychologic trying to figure out what's a safe claim.

[MordyS]

Vote MordyS Voting DGB is a scum tell. That is all.

Psychologic is town, actually.

This is bizarre btw.

[MordyS]

Oh yeah, cause I don't believe we've got a 3-man mason circle going on. Hmmm. What other groups in mafia come in pairs of 3?

[MordyS]

vote MordyS, you leave my girl alone. You need to respect your elders, you know DGB is retiring age.

I had already switched my vote to someone else at this point.

Ok, brief detour, wtf is up with the DGB nonsense? I'm happy some of you have apparently played together in the past, but there's no reason for half the game to suck up to DGB (including two people willing to vote based on a random vote on her). It's either obvscum behavior, or obvVI behavior, and I've gotten enough of VI behavior in my other games.

CKD...

Do you love me?

I may just have to replace out before I vomit.

[MordyS]

I think CKD shouldn't bring any personal factors into his decisions of who is and isn't scum. I also find buddying, even if RVS stage, extremely scummy, no matter who it's from. If CKD always does that in games you're in together, I'll consider it a null tell (begrudgingly). But otherwise, I find DoS scummy and I find you scummy for running to Psychologic's defense without good explanation. Either it's buddying or its scum players clumsily running to each other's defense and in either case, it's scummy behavior.

[MordyS]

So CKD... to answer your request.

I caught two scums, cateraction and MordyS, and maybe DoS, we'll see about him. I'm not sure yet whether I want to lynch them or adopt them.

milkshake, CKD, Psychologic and myself are town.

Not all players have posted content yet, so the above may change a little.

Certainly sounds serious. So how exactly does DG know that CKD is town? Because he defended her in the RVS? (After the fact, btw.)

And what would you prefer, Milkshake? That we just hang out in RVS indefinitely?

FOS: milkshake

[MordyS]

Oh please. In a normal stage there's maybe what? One "You voted for X so I'll vote for you" vote? In this game so far there's been 2-4 of those? There's some weird buddying, sucking-up going on. It's RVS, so I'm not claiming it's an ironclad scumtell, but I wouldn't be surprised if at least one of them was scum. DG in particular strikes me as scummy.

But hey, you tell me: What stuff actually has a bearing on alignment?

[MordyS]

I don't understand why you're trying to downplay DG's posts so much. She clearly is taking this part of the game seriously, and I think it's fair game for me to take her seriously.

[MordyS]

Look, I get you want to totally discount everything said in RVS, but that's not how Mafia works. RVS may be less serious, but it's still important. Also, I think I've laid it out already, but if you want, I'll go back again and pull out all the posts I felt were buddying.

(Tbh, if this is just some social clique thing and everyone likes trading cutsey posts with DG, then I don't know what to think. I might as well ignore everything posted so far, since you're just going to claim it was innocent RVS stuff. I happened to find it scummy that DoS attacks me for voting DG, and then DG claims Psycho is town without any justification, and then cateraction attacks me for voting DG too. There's something bizarre going on there. Most particularly DG claiming Psycho is town without any justification.)

[MordyS]

I'm not a huge fan of treating players in special ways, or giving validation for odd/different metas.

[MordyS]

I'm currently voting for DragonsofSummer, I think?

[MordyS]

I've read all the same Psychologic posts that DG has. So let's look at the only substantial one he's posted (the other 2; one is pregame chatter and one looks like a policy vote because ortolan hasn't voted yet).

Hello, fellow actors. I realize the game has just recently started, however I have some topics for us to discuss.

1. First of all, i'm unsure of whether scum will have actors that are usually one of the villains in the movies they act in, or whether they will have regular actor characters. I'm also unsure if the movies they play in are indicative of alignment, such as starring as villains in their movies. Therefore,
Do you think the scum will have villain acting-roles in the movies they have been provided with?

2. Second of all, I feel that my name/movies, as well as the Will Smith example one reveal nothing about what our movie roles can do. There is also a chance that scum have actor names/movies in which they are the antagonist in their movie. In my opinion, claiming our names/movies doesn't reveal anything about what they can do, and may prevent scum from having enough time to fake an actor/movies. Therefore,
Are you against a full actor name/movies starred-in claim?

Please respond to this.

So basically he speculates about roles, and asks whether we should have a massclaim, and I should believe that DG has some magic tell she was able to receive from this that indicated he's town? I'm very much in favor of her responding and defending her comment, but I don't think anyone who is skeptical is wrong for being so. And I really don't care if she has idiosyncratic reasons for playing that way -- scummy is scummy.

More importantly: Someone attacked Psychologic for what they saw as poor play here. DG wasn't just stepping out on a neutral player and claiming she had a town read. She was defending Psychologic by saying he's town, but without actually dealing with the questions at hand. I think she deserves to come under a little fire for that.

Anyway, here's my response to Psychologic's questions:
1. I really don't know what roles scum got. Some of my roles are obvious protagonist roles and some are more vague and unclear. I really have no idea if there's a difference between scum roles and town roles in terms of the kinds of parts they play.
2. I'm against a mass claim. There are like a thousand actors that aren't being represented in this game. I don't think that if we magically move quickly enough we'll prevent scum from making fake claims. That's ridiculous. I do however believe that there may be associations between roles and abilities -- since I don't think the mod associated the roles randomly with abilities.

[MordyS]

@Mordy: What do you have against the use of metas? I understand you have only been with the site about 7 months now, and only played 3 games as a part of it, but why should that limit other people from using the metas they have on players, especially on the first few pages?

I think people can feel free to use metas, and I'll often look up people's past games for insight into their behavior. My problem is more with people using shticky meta (for whatever reason) and then other people giving them deference for it.

[MordyS]

BTW, what was bizarre about those two quotes was that in a Mafia game, where ideally people are coming out and causing trouble to try and shake scum loose, everyone came out defending each other as Town with very minimal posts to look at. Dragons did it on DG and then DG did it on Psychologic. I'm glad there's a bandwagon on me -- it's better for people to be attacking one another then buddying up.

[MordyS]

I don't disagree with the approach, I just disagree with your method of listing who is town and who is scum without any argument attached. I still don't know what you found scummy about:

I'm going to have to resist the urge to quote movies so that people don't think I'm breadcrumbing. This will be hard.

And despite milkshake (I believe?) asking you to explain, you still haven't. Until I pushed on it, you wouldn't explain why you /knew/ Psychologic was Town, and I haven't seen a case from you against me yet either. It's nice that you like to shoot from your hip, but I don't think that helps anyone.

[MordyS]

Was that what your random comments were? Breadcrumbing? Something about adoption and babies? What I thought he was saying was, I don't want to quote flicks and people accidently think I'm breadcrumbing. Btw: My character isn't Gloria Swanson and my role for today isn't Sunset Blvd. I just said "I'm Ready for my Close-Up" cause it's a movie-flavored game and I thought it'd be fun. I imagine cateraction had a similar thing on his mind.

(And I'm glad you explained yourself so I can call your argument out for being inane.)

[MordyS]

You said Vaya was lurker scum; is there something in addition to that? (Ok, don't answer if you'd rather not.) I can't actually find a single post from Vaya... is there one?

[MordyS]

I'm glad I'm already voting for DoS, since that vote for Vaya was awful. 1. No responsibility for the vote, "DGB's logic is good enough for me on this one," and 2. DGB's logic is awful. I get we're apparently giving her a pass for some reason, but that doesn't excuse anyone for following her into the crevice.

[MordyS]

I just don't see how Vaya is scum. Even if Vaya lurks when scum, does he ever totally not show up? There's not a single post from him. It's possible you know something that I don't, but that doesn't excuse DoS for following along. He's got no reason to trust you're right. It's opportunistic.

[MordyS]

Purdy?

[MordyS]

I'm a he, and I'm hardly just looking for something to argue about. When DG tries to make a bad case, I'm going to protest it. I'm trying to win, not win brownie points with DG.

[MordyS]

and that is trying to undermine DGB's love

God forbid.

[MordyS]

DoS is scum for buddying up with DGB on that post a few pages back (that I don't feel like digging up at the moment, but I would if I could). CKD for similar reasons. DGB would also be on this list (lots of badlogic arguments, imho) except everyone would yell about her meta -- so maybe making those arguments are par for the course. I begrudgingly admit DGB's case on cateraction makes sense.

I get a Milkshake town read, tho I think he needs to stop buddying up to DGB so much. I agree with you about the two lurkers (jason + Vaya) that we don't know enough, tho I'd add Psychologic to that for posting three times on Friday and then disappearing over the weekend. I'm going to say you're probably town, tho I'm mediating my own opinion here (trying to circumscribe the OMGUS impulse I get). I think ortolan is probably town.

So town: Ortolan, Milkshake, PopularTajo
Lurking/No Case: Psychologic, Vaya, Jason
Scum: DoS, CKD, Cateraction
Wildcard: DGB

[MordyS]

Oh, I missed Icerint, I don't know what I think about him. I'll reread and post something later today.

[MordyS]

Buddying = linking yourself to another person through flavor or content that makes you look less threatening to that person, and occasionally to let you move unnoticed by other people as well.

Or to quote the wiki:

Buddying up is a tactic, usually used by members of the Mafia, to try to make yourself look less threatening. Typically the Mafia member will try to be friendly in some way, either outright or, more often, subtly. If the Mafia member is ever lynched at some point, and other players have noticed the buddying, it tends to throw suspicion on the person the Mafia was being friendly towards, thereby causing confusion even after the Mafioso's death.

You may feel like your buddying with DGB hasn't been scummy, but you can't deny that you have been buddying. (For whatever reason -- meta or otherwise.)

[MordyS]

Well, for one, you're one of the few people who gave a reason for jumping all over DGB's wagons/arguments.

It's just that after reading all of her posts in iso, I think she has a very relaxed transparent tone.

I disagree with this (I think she intentionally obfuscates), but I can see where you're coming from (in that she seems relaxed, even if I don't think she seems transparent). And maybe more important when judging you, it seems like you believe it. So unlike, say, DoS or CKD, you've actually justified your approach to her. Moreover, tho it isn't my style to always ask questions of the perp (generally I pose my questions to the other players and let the perp take the initiative to defend themselves), I like your distinction between asking people to explain themselves and assuming the worst. I think it can be useful, and I'm adding it to my arsenal for the future. In this case I (obviously) think you're wrong, but I don't think your general point is wrong.

On the opposite side of things tho, you have a particular tell that I'm not sure what to do with. It manifests like this:

It's just that after reading all of her posts in iso, I think she has a very relaxed transparent tone. What do you think?

This is what Mordy posted and tell me what do you think of it.

DGB, why do you think Mordys is town?

Mordys, who is scum and why?

Some of that seems like genuine scumhunting (I'm going to imagine you were asking me for my scum list to get a read on me, more than actual curiosity), but some of that seems unnecessarily looking for affirmation/approval. In particular the, "What do you think about this" formulations which are vague. But like I said, some of this I'm putting on the backburner, since I'm more inclined to think people attacking me personally are scum.

Ok, re:Icerint:
I think CKD's case on Icerint is pretty awful. I don't see the scumtell in his by the end of the game formulation. That's kinda what was throwing me off -- since I don't want to conflate a bad case from a player with actual possible scuminess from said player. His posts have generally been very short, so that also makes it hard to get a read off him. So I'm going to say no-read, edging towards town.

[MordyS]

DoS, you didn't just hitch your apple wagon to DGB's star in RVS. In your iso post 7:

vote Vaya for now DGB's logic is good enough for me on this one.

I've already explained why I didn't buy DGB's logic, but even worse for you, DGB has discounted that this was logic at all.

Why are you calling my logic awful? It is not "logic" - it is a conclusion based on my observation of Vaya as scum. Vaya's behavior is like night and day. I am so convinced that I'd be willing to lynch this player before a replacement shows up. How's that for certainty.

Now this could just be semantics (using different gauges to qualify what logic is), but I think it's important to note that DGB wasn't, according to her own posts, making a logical case against Vaya. She was going with her experience of the player. So you voting with DGB would have to be saying, "Oh, I believe DGB knows what she's doing," when instead you write that you agree with her argument. There's no argument here, tho, so paired with the RVS comment, it seems like systematic star-apple-wagon-hitching (also known as buddying in other circumstances). If DGB is scum, there's no reason to trust her read on Vaya. You have no reason, if town, to know whether she's town or scum. Epso facto: Scummy.

Also, your vote for me smells like OMGUS. Especially after this:

I have no reason to distrust her knowledge of Vaya right now, and its better than the random vote I had on you.

Nothing has changed about my argument against you since you wrote that. So I guess you either just reread the forum and got a different impression, or you're feeling pressured by my vote? (Admittedly a stretch. Not a ton of pressure on you at the moment. Hopefully this post changes that.)

Also thats the only thing you have against me? And I feel the need to point out that your case is WIFOM at best, you realize this right?

No, my case wasn't WIFOM. But let's pretend for a second it was, what do you then think about Icerint who wrote,

Vote: DragonsofSummer. Mordy gave a legitimate reason for voting DoS; I find his OMGUS accusation disingenuous.

Do you think I just magically swayed him with my badlogic, or do you think he's also scum?

[MordyS]

I don't understand, DoS, so I voted for you for something, and Ice agreed, but he's neutral and I'm scummy? I don't think that follows. Moreso, my case isn't WIFOM'y. Maybe you can spell out, though, how you think it is?

[MordyS]

I think I've absolutely looked elsewhere. If it hasn't been enough for you, maybe you should make some cases yourself instead of relying upon other people's cases? (So far you've voted for me in RVS, for what you consider a, I guess, joke vote, and then Vaya for DGB's case. And then you voted me again because you don't like my case against you.) Maybe if you did some scum-hunting I wouldn't be stuck just looking at you. (And also, it might make you seem a little less - idk - scummy?)

[MordyS]

I'm sorry, should I assume that nobody means what they say? I guess I was pretty silly to take your case at face value.

[MordyS]

(1) vote MordyS, you leave my girl alone. You need to respect your elders, you know DGB is retiring age.

CKD... Do you love me?

lol, I wasnt sure...but I think I do....which is funny on many different levels. which reminds me...once I am dead (our other current game)..I need to put up the xmas avatar you made me last year. now, down to business.. (2) DGB, who is scum?

(3) I dont think i have ever sucked up to DGB before...does that mean I am scum, oh dear?

(4) unvote, vote Iecerint / gut vote....oooohhhh shit. / by the end of what?

(1) Voted for me for voting for DGB in RVS, even after I had moved my vote.
(2) Asked point-blank, without having any reason to believe DGB wasn't herself scum, who she thought scum was.
(3) Including this as representative. Cute banter.
(4) Another "defending DGB" vote. You could claim that you would have voted Iecerint here no matter who he had said that comment about, but the fact that it was another defense of DGB vote tripped my scumdar.

Also, I'm really glad you made me reread, because I noticed this:

Vaya, wait a minute...you were lurking on purpose?

unvote

When I first read this, I hadn't given it much thought. But in the reread -- you were voting for Iecerint when you unvoted. So what happened to make you unvote him? In the post it looks like something Vaya said made you do it - but you don't vote for Vaya in the post. So what exactly is going on here?

Why am I voting for DoS and not you? Because I think he's a smidgen more scummy than you. I obviously don't think buddying is a 100% scumtell, but I don't need to be 100% sure that you're scum on page 7. I just need to get an idea of who to keep a closer eye on. And I'm glad I did, because now I get to ask you about that unvote.

[MordyS]

Mordy: Is there any other reason besides my RVS joke that I'm scum?

Yes. The fact that the only things you've posted is this post, and two RVS jokes. Active lurk, much?

Also, I guess CKD has more questions for me to answer -- 1. My wiki has all my completed games on them. 2. I've seen joke votes in RVS stage, I just believe that you can interpret jokes votes as well. If they were totally null, there wouldn't be a point in having an RVS stage. 3. I don't see how one post ruins my case. So you didn't jump at her beck and call to place more votes? Fine, but you still felt it necessary to tell her you're not voting with her.

now darling I am quite comfortable with my vote....

Which might make sense if she had explicitly asked you to vote. But she didn't, she asked the players of the game to vote for Vaya in general. For some reason you're the only person who didn't vote for Vaya who also felt required to make a post about it explaining to DGB. I think it fits the pattern fine.

Next paragraph:
I've seen town buddy. Yes, theoretically there could be game related reasons that town might buddy -- would you like to explain yours? I've never attacked anyone for buddying as scum (at least, not that I can remember). Of course, I've only been scum once on the forums. So who knows? Maybe something to put in my pocket for the future.

Why did you no longer like your vote on Iece? How could Vaya say something scummy enough to get you to unvote from someone else, but not scummy enough to get you to vote for Vaya? Why didn't you want to revote Iece?

Gut feeling that DoS is scummier at the moment. That could change on a dime, tho.

[MordyS]

I just looked over that scum game. In it, I'm attacked for buddying up with casual conversation (as I actually was scum, that's probably why I respond badly to buddying up in games I've played since then). Later in the game I use the argument myself, so yes, apparently I have used that argument as scum. That said, IIRC, there was an excuse for why they were buddying up. One of them believed strongly (this is, btw, a few days into the game, now out of the RVS) that the other was town, and was hitching his wagon. So for our game, lessons learned? Buddying on Day One with casual conversation? Probably scummy. Buddying on Day Three because you believe someone is town? A good excuse maybe to buddy.

[MordyS]

EBWOP Not* out of the RVS

[MordyS]

Wait... your gut tells you I am scummier? Didn't you just attack CKD for a gut vote on the last page MordyS?

Can you show me what you're referring to specifically?

you role fishing?

I unvoted, because I thought I might vote vaya, however, her point about not posting in other games is solid (for now)....

I'll take that to be a softclaim, then. There are town reasons for buddying that don't involve roles, obv. I still don't understand why you needed to unvote to prepare yourself to vote for Vaya at a later date. If Iece didn't stop being scummy, you should have kept your vote on him until you were ready to vote for Vaya imo.

[MordyS]

I just read Vaya in iso in that game (all one post of it), so I didn't notice -- were people talking about Vaya lurking before that post? Because that could account for the difference here, and if we had let it run its course, we might've gotten a post like that.

As much as it pains me to admit it, I think DGB is right about Vaya. (ugh.)

Unvote
Vote: Vaya

[MordyS]

jasonT is my new addition to my top suspects for jumping on the Vaya wagon so late in its journey. I really don't know if he actually believe the whole vayalurking-is-scum thing. He seems more like he's copying previous reasons without internalizing them. And it's the L-1 vote. Vaya is so not worthy of a L-1 vote.

How exactly would you detect whether someone authentically believed or didn't believe vayalurking-is-scum? How exactly does one internalize reasons? This milkshake post concerns me. It sounds like he's doing to jasonT what he accuses jasonT of doing to Vaya. (Of course, he's not putting jasonT at L-1, which might make the difference).

[MordyS]

Hm. I thought I was making original comments on jasonT not recylcing them... MordyS you just keep saying things!

That last post of his [jasonT] was just awful. He does nothing but follow and agree with all the popular targets and doesn't seem to offer much of any original though.

jasonT is my new addition to my top suspects for jumping on the Vaya wagon so late in its journey. I really don't know if he actually believe the whole vayalurking-is-scum thing. He seems more like he's copying previous reasons without internalizing them.

Did you really think that? Cause like -- you weren't. Also, wanna answer my questions?

[MordyS]

You're being intentionally dense and the smiley face isn't doing anything to alleviate that. How do yo know that Justin doesn't authentically believe the case on Vaya? How do you know whether he has internalized the reasons or not?

Jeez. This isn't rocket science.

[MordyS]

ortolan and populartajo are simultaneously more scummish than before and less scummish than before

[MordyS]

I don't know how it works. Look at DGB's list.

[MordyS]

So according to you, they are more scummy and less scummy at the same time, but you cant explain so you will use DGBs list?

the question was asked of you, not DGB.

Please don't be stupid. I was commenting on her list.

[MordyS]

I could get behind a Jason or Vaya lynch. I was into cateraction-scum, but if his link shows active scum, then I'll buy his excuse for not posting. (Of course, not posting is shitty anti-town, whether you're scum or not. So stop that immediately.) Vaya has started posting, but I can't figure out whether that's due to be called out or not. Jason, I feel, had a really weird response to me on the last page when I pointed out the typo on DGB's list. Like, either he didn't understand that I was responding to the list, or he was trying to create controversy where it didn't exist. The former strikes me as bored reading / skimming, which could be scum looking for things to pull out of context and attack. The latter could be a scumtell as well. Add to that that he's also been lurking and I think he makes a decent candidate for today. (If I'm reading that exchange incorrectly, maybe cause I'm blinded by OMGUS feelings, someone let me know -- but I think that's an accurate interpretation.)

Unvote, Vote: JasonT

[MordyS]

I'm a little confused as to why Vaya hammered before cateraction had a chance to claim. If he had claimed a different actor (or claimed Al Pacino and told us his possible roles), I feel like we'd know now whether he was scum or not. As is -- it's kinda like a random event. Simon says vote for Vaya?

Vote: Vaya

[MordyS]

Oh, interesting. I didn't realize. Sorries!

Unvote

[MordyS]

Get a new suspect. At this point I think maybe I'm the only person not responsible for one of these kills. (Assuming scum didn't make multiple kills by themselves.) I think DGB can still speak (even tho she's jailed), so her, DoS, Milkshake, Vaya, populartajo me and Jason can talk, and everyone but her can vote. What do we think about a MC about what we did last night? Or do people think it's too likely that it's too swingy to get any valuable information out of a MC?

[MordyS]

That was directed to Milkshake. I realize Vaya didn't realize he was hammering (tho maybe he did? Who knows what kind of ability he had), but I think populartajo is right that Vaya is scummy for other reasons too. Not least being jumping on that cateraction wagon when he thought he had found scum in JasonT.

[MordyS]

Yeah, I'm down with claiming. I'm Scarlet Johansson. Yesterday I was Lost in Translation (aka, can't hammer because of the cultural shock). Today I picked The Island, which has a slightly cooler ability, tho I'd like to keep that on the DL for the moment. If it becomes applicable, I'll reveal it later in the day. (My other two roles are The Prestige and The Spirit. Not sure what they do. Is anyone getting the impression, btw, that these are mostly blockbuster roles we're getting and not - say - indie flicks?) Anyway, I'm back to my original impulse, which is Simon Says Vote for Vaya!

Vote: Vaya

[MordyS]

Remember, Simon Says! (Ok, I'm done with that ridiculous rhetorical device. I just remembered tho that the first time I played Mafia was in summer camp along with other games like that and Mother May I. Oh memories.)

[MordyS]

Yeah, I think she should be investigated.

[MordyS]

I'm gonna step out on a limb here and say that whoever put DGB in jail is prob scum. I don't see what a townie would have to gain from jailing her, and it's been my impression she's pretty town.

[MordyS]

Idle speculation before I go into class, but if populartajo isn't scum, I think it's definitive that the roles have only a loose relationship to alignment. Face/Off is iffy, but afaik, Lord of War is definitely an ambiguous protagonist.

[MordyS]

What's this 6 to lynch thing? Also, we only have like a couple days left, right?

[MordyS]

V/LA for Thanksgiving Weekend (TurkeyTime!)

[MordyS]

Hey, so I'm back from V/LA. I'm not really sure what to make of what happened today (including the failed investigation?), but I've had a feeling DoS has been scum since yesterday. So I'm gonna hammer.

Vote: DoS

[MordyS]

Hey, welcome back dudes from the dead. Anyway, I've got no idea if this means we still have scum among us, or if they're dead and just not beyond, etc.

Vote: Vaya

Scummiest of the bunch, imo.

[MordyS]

EBWOP (I'm not into a nolynch. 5 players, either lylo or freelynch. I don't see a mylo situation.)

[MordyS]

Can you say more about the strong implication? I'm all in favor of resurrecting confirmed townies (long live the king and all that jazz), but I'm not totally sure what strongly implied means.

[MordyS]

Presumably one of the things stopping him from succeeding is that he's dead. Among the living people, milkshake, who do you think we should lynch?

[MordyS]

Bah. Sometimes good play isn't enough to pull out a win for your team :/

(It didn't help that the first scummie basically decided not to play the first day.)

Re: CKD, I killed you the first night mostly because you guys really were annoying the hell out of me. I'm not sure if I would've felt differently if I were town, but too much kissy-kissy makes me want to scratch my eyes out. Also, I figured if one of you died, I'd be able to handle the other one fairly easily (which is ultimately what happened).