Mini 881 - Moviestar Madness - Game Over

[DragonsofSummer]

So I am scum for saying that voting for DGB is a scum tell in the RVS? That is the only time you have commented on one of my posts that you could consider buddying I think? Thats crap analysis and you know it.

Also thats the only thing you have against me? And I feel the need to point out that your case is WIFOM at best, you realize this right?

My last question for you MordyS is, have you realized that no player is taking any less interest in anything I say (especially DGB) because of my joke in the RVS? You latching onto it and carrying it as a torch for me being scum is scummy, that is all there is too it. As soon as I made that post you have talked about almost nothing except how bad DGB plays and how scummy I (and CKD) are for what you term now as "buddying". It is a common scum tactic to latch onto a player and throw as much bad light on them as possible with as little evidence as possible and thats what you are doing here.

unvote vote MordyS

.

IMO Vaya can wait.

[Iecerint]

I can understand the basis of tajo's meta-based suspicion of me. However, I think he's interpreted it the wrong way. I replaced into Twilight mafia (the game I assume he's alluding to) on page 20-something and came in with a big post on the game and so forth. That obviously hasn't happened here because the circumstances are different. Refer to Rabbit Doubt mafia (or tajo's I-love-you mafia, really) for a game where I think my play was pretty similar to how it is here.

I don't understand why the cateraction vote was scummy. I'm happy with it for the moment. Maybe you could explain?

[MordyS]

Well, for one, you're one of the few people who gave a reason for jumping all over DGB's wagons/arguments.

It's just that after reading all of her posts in iso, I think she has a very relaxed transparent tone.

I disagree with this (I think she intentionally obfuscates), but I can see where you're coming from (in that she seems relaxed, even if I don't think she seems transparent). And maybe more important when judging you, it seems like you believe it. So unlike, say, DoS or CKD, you've actually justified your approach to her. Moreover, tho it isn't my style to always ask questions of the perp (generally I pose my questions to the other players and let the perp take the initiative to defend themselves), I like your distinction between asking people to explain themselves and assuming the worst. I think it can be useful, and I'm adding it to my arsenal for the future. In this case I (obviously) think you're wrong, but I don't think your general point is wrong.

On the opposite side of things tho, you have a particular tell that I'm not sure what to do with. It manifests like this:

It's just that after reading all of her posts in iso, I think she has a very relaxed transparent tone. What do you think?

This is what Mordy posted and tell me what do you think of it.

DGB, why do you think Mordys is town?

Mordys, who is scum and why?

Some of that seems like genuine scumhunting (I'm going to imagine you were asking me for my scum list to get a read on me, more than actual curiosity), but some of that seems unnecessarily looking for affirmation/approval. In particular the, "What do you think about this" formulations which are vague. But like I said, some of this I'm putting on the backburner, since I'm more inclined to think people attacking me personally are scum.

Ok, re:Icerint:
I think CKD's case on Icerint is pretty awful. I don't see the scumtell in his by the end of the game formulation. That's kinda what was throwing me off -- since I don't want to conflate a bad case from a player with actual possible scuminess from said player. His posts have generally been very short, so that also makes it hard to get a read off him. So I'm going to say no-read, edging towards town.

[MordyS]

DoS, you didn't just hitch your apple wagon to DGB's star in RVS. In your iso post 7:

vote Vaya for now DGB's logic is good enough for me on this one.

I've already explained why I didn't buy DGB's logic, but even worse for you, DGB has discounted that this was logic at all.

Why are you calling my logic awful? It is not "logic" - it is a conclusion based on my observation of Vaya as scum. Vaya's behavior is like night and day. I am so convinced that I'd be willing to lynch this player before a replacement shows up. How's that for certainty.

Now this could just be semantics (using different gauges to qualify what logic is), but I think it's important to note that DGB wasn't, according to her own posts, making a logical case against Vaya. She was going with her experience of the player. So you voting with DGB would have to be saying, "Oh, I believe DGB knows what she's doing," when instead you write that you agree with her argument. There's no argument here, tho, so paired with the RVS comment, it seems like systematic star-apple-wagon-hitching (also known as buddying in other circumstances). If DGB is scum, there's no reason to trust her read on Vaya. You have no reason, if town, to know whether she's town or scum. Epso facto: Scummy.

Also, your vote for me smells like OMGUS. Especially after this:

I have no reason to distrust her knowledge of Vaya right now, and its better than the random vote I had on you.

Nothing has changed about my argument against you since you wrote that. So I guess you either just reread the forum and got a different impression, or you're feeling pressured by my vote? (Admittedly a stretch. Not a ton of pressure on you at the moment. Hopefully this post changes that.)

Also thats the only thing you have against me? And I feel the need to point out that your case is WIFOM at best, you realize this right?

No, my case wasn't WIFOM. But let's pretend for a second it was, what do you then think about Icerint who wrote,

Vote: DragonsofSummer. Mordy gave a legitimate reason for voting DoS; I find his OMGUS accusation disingenuous.

Do you think I just magically swayed him with my badlogic, or do you think he's also scum?

[Iecerint]

(My name has 2 e's.)

[DrippingGoofball]

(My name has 2 e's.)

And it's pronounced "ice rink."

[Iecerint]

It's pronounced /jekerInt/ in IPA, if the e's were epsilons and the r were upside-down.

[DragonsofSummer]

For your first point, its a discrepancy in how you view logic and I view it, I still think its logic that DGB compared the play to previous Vaya games and said oh this is how he acted in that situation, and he is acting similar here. That is logical to me.

True but you actually laid out your case against me in earnest finally. I still think your case is WIFOMy at best, the case you have on me is that I am "buddying" with DGB. It is based largely on my random vote where I called you scummy for voting her as a joke. You took that and ran with it, and are now trying to make later facts fit your theory. You are saying that I am obviously scum for buddying with DGB, when really I haven't buddied with DGB at all. (See my explanation of my Vaya vote).

I don't think you magically did anything, I do however think that for whatever reason Ice decided that I wasn't joking either, and thought you had a reason to vote me because of it. My read on Ice is neutral right now.

[DragonsofSummer]

ebwop: sorry Iece, was posting as you posted the clarification!

[Iecerint]

np bro. The second e can be a schwa if ye want; I ain't picky.

I always assume that players are trying their best to make serious votes unless they unvote in the same post. Granted, "their best" may not extend too far during the so-called RVS.

[MordyS]

I don't understand, DoS, so I voted for you for something, and Ice agreed, but he's neutral and I'm scummy? I don't think that follows. Moreso, my case isn't WIFOM'y. Maybe you can spell out, though, how you think it is?

[DragonsofSummer]

You are scummy because you latched onto me at the beginning of the day with that vote and haven't looked anywhere else (except for DGB, and CKD slightly) since it started. Iece was merely commenting on the precedings and has been looking at all the players.

So I was trying to work it out, and you are right WIFOM is the wrong thing. I can't think of the word or term for what it is you are doing right now, but simply put this is what I see, You voted me for my random vote, and now have been harping on it ever since, with no other evidence to support your theories, you are forcing other posts of mine to fit it, but they don't. (Maybe its a fallacy of some sort? I've forgotten)

[MordyS]

I think I've absolutely looked elsewhere. If it hasn't been enough for you, maybe you should make some cases yourself instead of relying upon other people's cases? (So far you've voted for me in RVS, for what you consider a, I guess, joke vote, and then Vaya for DGB's case. And then you voted me again because you don't like my case against you.) Maybe if you did some scum-hunting I wouldn't be stuck just looking at you. (And also, it might make you seem a little less - idk - scummy?)

[TonyMontana]

Correct me if I'm wrong Vote Count

L-4

MordyS

(3) populartajo, milkshake, DragonofSummer
L-5

Vaya

(2) DrippingGoofball, ortolan
L-6

cateraction

(1) Iecerint
L-6

curiouskarmadog

(1) Jason
L-6

DragonofSummer

(1) MordyS
L-6

ortolan

(1) Psychologic

Not voting: curiouskarmadog, cateraction, Vaya

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch

Deadline is

November 22nd, 11pm CET

[curiouskarmadog]

Mordy, Mordy, Mordy......you make a lot of assumptions, you typically do that in mafia games? Havent pegged if your out of gate attacks are scummy or towny yet.......

Also why was my case against Iece, bad?

I will post it again to jog your memory.

I agree with you when it's a player like zwet who both has low-content activity and is hard to read. DGB, on the other hand, is a pretty active player; she'll have contributed a great deal by the end.

unvote, vote Iecerint

gut vote....oooohhhh shit.

by the end of what?

actually, let me ask it is a different way...what was my case on page 3 of this game? Perhaps we have different views of what cases are.....perhaps we have different views on how to get conversations started and scum hunting.

are you really putting forward that my gut vote day 3 on Iece based on his passing comment that I later unvoted was a case?

[MordyS]

I'm sorry, should I assume that nobody means what they say? I guess I was pretty silly to take your case at face value.

[curiouskarmadog]

again, what was my "case" against Iece? Do you typically attack gut votes on Day 3?

how EXACTLY was I buddying...it is easy to say..but explain how. And why would you assume that I am buddying with DGB and she is not buddying with me? Was my joke RVS vote buddying? Has my buddying stopped or am I still buddying with my darling, DGB? If the answer is "yes you are still buddying" please explain how (while not mentioning that I called her "darling"). If you still think i am buddying, why are you not voting me for such "obvious scum" actions. If you dont think i am buddying, why are you still brining it up?

Trying to figure out here are you serious, scum hunting, or throwing shit against the wall.

[milkshake]

Regarding the buddying topic: I actually disagree with the implication of the section of the wiki that MordyS quoted,

Buddying up is a tactic, usually used by members of the Mafia, to try to make yourself look less threatening. Typically the Mafia member will try to be friendly in some way, either outright or, more often, subtly. If the Mafia member is ever lynched at some point, and other players have noticed the buddying, it tends to throw suspicion on the person the Mafia was being friendly towards, thereby causing confusion even after the Mafioso's death.

Being "friendly" with your vote and siding uneccessarily in important arguements, yes, I suppose can see mafia doing. But just being friendly, which I believe is what people were doing (heaven forbid ... with some possible debatability regarding votes in the RVS), well, if that's a scum tell here I'm quitting!

This is partially also based on the assumption that hopping on early bandwagons just for the heck of it if they agree with the reason, however small, is a perfectly pro-town thing to do, though... I know MordyS doesn't like the way people followed DGB onto the Vaya wagon, but at this stage of the wagon, this early in the game, I think it's totally fine.

[MordyS]

(1) vote MordyS, you leave my girl alone. You need to respect your elders, you know DGB is retiring age.

CKD... Do you love me?

lol, I wasnt sure...but I think I do....which is funny on many different levels. which reminds me...once I am dead (our other current game)..I need to put up the xmas avatar you made me last year. now, down to business.. (2) DGB, who is scum?

(3) I dont think i have ever sucked up to DGB before...does that mean I am scum, oh dear?

(4) unvote, vote Iecerint / gut vote....oooohhhh shit. / by the end of what?

(1) Voted for me for voting for DGB in RVS, even after I had moved my vote.
(2) Asked point-blank, without having any reason to believe DGB wasn't herself scum, who she thought scum was.
(3) Including this as representative. Cute banter.
(4) Another "defending DGB" vote. You could claim that you would have voted Iecerint here no matter who he had said that comment about, but the fact that it was another defense of DGB vote tripped my scumdar.

Also, I'm really glad you made me reread, because I noticed this:

Vaya, wait a minute...you were lurking on purpose?

unvote

When I first read this, I hadn't given it much thought. But in the reread -- you were voting for Iecerint when you unvoted. So what happened to make you unvote him? In the post it looks like something Vaya said made you do it - but you don't vote for Vaya in the post. So what exactly is going on here?

Why am I voting for DoS and not you? Because I think he's a smidgen more scummy than you. I obviously don't think buddying is a 100% scumtell, but I don't need to be 100% sure that you're scum on page 7. I just need to get an idea of who to keep a closer eye on. And I'm glad I did, because now I get to ask you about that unvote.

[Iecerint]

I don't begrudge Mordy for pointing out that players were buddying DGB. They kinda were. Normally, I think it'd even be appropriate to keep on bringing up the point, except that this is DGB and she's kinda a celebrity, so I think people can be forgiven for doing that sort of thing early on.

[Psychologic]

P A G E

-

T W O ;

•

DrippingGoofball, cateraction, curiouskarmadog; why did you all choose not to reply to my proposition?
You all posted consecutively after my initial post, therefore it's highly unlikely that you missed it.

•

DrippingGoofball, in post 28 were you under the assumption that milkshake's vote was serious?

•

In response to post 31, it's weird that cateraction is so worried about people thinking he is breadcrumbing.
This gives an indication that he is attempting to be cautious, which can be,
but is not necessarily scummy due to the WIFOM argument, "would scum really say that?" It's a null tell for me.

•

In response to post 32, I am

Tom Hanks

, my movies are Philidelphia, Terminal, Cast Away, and The Green Mile.
I chose Philidelphia for my first movie. I am acting as Andrew Beckett.
You now have no reason to feel afraid to claim because you think that I am trying to find a safe claim.

•

In response to post 40, when did DrippingGoofball defend me?
All I see is a post in which he/she made a statement that he/she feels I am town,
and that was directed to a post that I feel was a random vote on me.

•

Posts 41, 43, and 45, all written by milkshake, seem awkward to me but I just can't
pinpoint how to describe the queasy feeling I get from reading them. I advise you to go read them.

•

MordyS/milkshake conclusion:

MordyS is more likely to be town out of the two.

•

In the latter part of post 45, milkshake basically parrots everything that DrippingGoofball has already stated/ commented on.
DrippingGoofball spoke about my discussion, cateraction's initial post, and her read on MordyS.
milkshake merely re-states all those points without demonstrating that he has done any thinking for him/herself.

Unvote. Vote: milkshake.

Question:

How do you hyperlink certain posts?

Sincerely

,

Psycho

logic

[Psychologic]

P A G E

-

T H R E E ;

•

MordyS, in your post 51 you state that your major is problem with DrippingGoofball is her read on me.
What in particular makes you uncomfortable?

•

jasonT1981's post 58 is completely out of the loop and seems stretched in my opinion.

•

curiouskarmadog hasn't done anything during the game thus far, despite posting 4-5 times.
DrippingGoofball, would you care to explain why you have a town read on him/her?

2. I'm against a mass claim. There are like a thousand actors that aren't being represented in this game. I don't think that if we magically move quickly enough we'll prevent scum from making fake claims. That's ridiculous. I do however believe that there may be associations between roles and abilities -- since I don't think the mod associated the roles randomly with abilities.

This is a valid point, however you must realize that scum may not know which actors will fit with the other actors that are already in the game. Therefore, if some outrageous role pops up, it may be more likely to be scum fake claiming.

Sincerely

,

Psycho

logic

[Psychologic]

P A G E

-

F O U R - S I X ;

•

Only serve to reinforce my firm stance on DrippingGoofball--

town

. No, I don't feel he/she is town due to him/her thinking I am town. DrippingGoofball is taking clear, distinct stances without any hesitation or indication of caution. This is normally how town play, while scum would rather not give as much stances in order to easily change directions.

•

DrippingGoofball's read on Vaya is extremely insightful and demonstrates that DGB is meditating on the game and trying to find scum rather than just faking it. I'm not sure if Vaya's lurking necessary condemns her, however the only game i've played with Vaya she was town, and was active. I can see myself supporting a Vaya lynch, however milkshake is still my number one suspect due to many of his/her posts. Also keep in mind that milkshake's first two posts about Vaya (I haven't read further yet) were defending her.

There is a Mordys debate in my head right now. Mordys really feels like scum that is annoyed at players getting town reads from each other and that is trying to undermine DGB's love. But sometimes it feels like he is one of those dense townies that ask clarification for everything and just argues because he thinks he is right.

My thoughts exactly. Thank you for posting this.

•

Right now I am leaning

town

on MordyS due to her antagonistic attitude. Scum generally tend to want to stay away from arguments and controversy, which is the exact opposite of what MordyS is currently doing.

•

MordyS, in post 145 you state you have a town read on milkshake. Care to explain why?

[Psychologic]

TOWN

DrippingGoofball
MordyS
populartajo
Iecerint
ortolan
cateraction
curiouskarmadog
DragonsofSummer
jasonT1981
Vaya
milkshake

SCUM

* Yes, the following is in order from town to scum.

Sincerely

,

Psycho

logic

[curiouskarmadog]

Psycho, you say I have not done anything..but comparing us before your recent back to back posts...what have you done...lucky for you being a hypocrite is scummy..

what is scummy, is your pushing for people to claim...explain to me why that is a good idea.

Mordy, you still assume a lot. Can you link me to some of your completed games. You are acting like you have never seen joke votes in a RVS stage before. Your points 2-4 are stretchy. Mordy why in your reread of me in reference to DGB and buddying, did you leave out the fact when DGB asked for additional votes on somone , I said I was fine with my vote elsewhere? Did you not include that in your "buddying proof" because it didnt fit your theory or did you just over look it? Seems to me that you are really stretching here....why?

But lets play with your theory real fast...lets say I was buddying...Have you ever seen town do it? Can there be any game related reasons why a player might or might not do it? As scum, have you ever attacked anyone for buddying?

also, I changed my vote off iece, because I no longer liked it there. Vaya did say something to make me unvote, but her answer (if metaed) rings true so I didnt vote her....and I currently dont want to revote iece...currently scum hunting....considering voting you..but need to figure out if you are tunneling on me or pushing bad scummy "facts".

if both DoS and I are buddying...what makes him scummier than I?