Mafia 103 - Ktown Mafia (Game Over)

[Furry]

Yay I have a friend already!

Anyone else looking for a friend?

Vote Torqez

Thats completely spelled wrong, and I bet you dont even know basic torque calculations

[Furry]

*snugglez*

see... awesome friendship

[Furry]

Furry - Why did you replace into this game? Was it because you wanted to play as scum and thought magichands was scum? How did you figure it out?

Because I only replace into games (one played from start I think). Plus I have talked with a few people in the game, wanted to play with them, so yeah. I never want to play as scum though, its so frustrating to create and keep track of a line of thought.

Is your vote serious?

Vote: furry

All these bloody furries.... disgusting hobby

heh... ive built up thick skin anyways. *hugs* always help though

[Furry]

vote furry

cuz I don't wanna get touched anywhere inappropriately...

Dont be hatin' Mr. Animal in People Clothes *full body hugglez*

Also I notice no defense from Torqez in not knowing how to calculate basic Torque... so scum. Lock him up, throw away the key, and make sure no one else can get in or out! Maybe give him a couple Mechanics books as well.

[Furry]

I'm an Electical engineer.

Mechanics is boring!

Well im Civil, and ciriculum required at least basic Statics, which if you have a good prof should touch on toruqe

@Kat - What specifically do you consider the end of the random stage?

[Furry]

This is the funniest mafia I've ever seen.

*touches Mr Squirrel inappropriate*

*touches Mr Squirril too* Haylen told me to do it...

Dont be hatin' Mr. Animal in People Clothes *full body hugglez*

*goes and hides in the corner, tail tucked in shame*

We do our best. And if you ask me you got yourself a good sig right there

@SJ - Was the comment on CK serious?

[Furry]

@DN - What constitutes a random stage 'ending'?
@SJ - Any luck with ending the RVS?
@VS - First game ever or forum?

@All who have changed a vote - Why change random votes?

[Furry]

Random stage ends when no one else is random voting silly. We usually want this to happen as soon as possible so that we can get on with the game.

Why not do anything to end it? If you try hard enough you can kill the RVS a couple pages in max.

@Kat - Why is bandwagoning bad? I think its a great way to get a game rolling

@SJ - Any luck with ending the RVS?

We're getting there.

So what needs to be done to get there? What can you do to get us there?

Also, I still don't see what CrueKnight's voting habits were as a valid scumtell. But its worth a finger of suspicion.

Why FoS? Why not vote? What is the line between the two?

[Furry]

Because I only replace into games (one played from start I think). Plus I have talked with a few people in the game, wanted to play with them, so yeah. I never want to play as scum though, its so frustrating to create and keep track of a line of thought.

How would your playstyle change if you were playing as scum in comparison to your play as town?

Not much. I have a nice and flat meta, only a few people have ever been able to meta me with success.

Is your vote serious?

The reasons I voted for Haylen weren't serious, but I voted her for a serious reason.

This didnt answer my question, so lets try a rewording.

Did you consider your vote part of the RVS, or an end to the RVS?

[Furry]

Torqez - What do you think of Furry's vote for you?

It sucks! Hence my OMGUSness!

Although, Civil Engineers are much below Electrical and Electronic Engineers in the hierarchy - I have nothing to worry about!

Well maybe I will just let the Oakland area sewer system collapse tomorrow at work instead of working on replacing old lines.

1. Stop random voting. I do this by doing what I'm doing. To end the RVS, just enamate feelings of RVS-endingness

2. The line between the two is how valid I feel the suspicion.

Thats now how you end the random voting stage. The fact that so many people are complaining about it though and showing no real push to get out of it (what the hell really?) I will go do it for you guys.

unvote
Vote Solemnj

You obviously think that CK is scummy for something he is doing, which means that the RVS should be over. Instead of voting him and getting us out of the random stage, you are just looking at it as something to note, and moving on. So as town you are either ignoring a scum tell, refusing to put a foot forward for progress, or intentionally prolonging the RVS. What would make the FoS worthy of a vote? Where is that line for you?

Weeeeeee... random stage over. People can pay me in hugs.

[Furry]

But my voting patterns are different than yours, and I see no difference between voting for a player and saying my beliefs, and just stating what I think.

There is a big difference in accountability. I tend to yell at people for not getting this, but its not the same to say "I think X is scum" "FoS X" and "Vote X". They all hold different levels of belief and are treated differently in (at least my) analysis.

People who dont want to vote, are trying not to take any strong stances while still appearing active as possible. This means that by only saying "I think" and "FoS" you are trying to avoid taking any responsability for your actions and votes, and therefore are scummy.

Besides, isnt the RVS over if people are using logic in their attacks?

Yes. As soon as someone makes a non-random vote the RVS is over in my books.

[Furry]

Hm. Good lesson, then, anyways.

Tutoring, also payable in hugs.

...Chainsaw Defense?

Scum A is attacked by Town B. Scum C attacks Town B to take pressure off Scum A.

I dont like the tell personally, but lots of people swear by it.

Now...question: why does Furry have so many votes on him?

Still the random stage hun. I dont think any of the votes on me are serious, so dont go searching for a reason to wagon me.

@Kat - Bandwagoning is town. If it was a quicklynch attempt then its scummy. There needs to be a few wagons for the game to get going.

[Furry]

Hmmph...

Whats the whole wicked-MS thing here? It seems to be that MS says wicked is scum for the questions he is asking, and the vote is returned for tunneling? A bullet point case from each would be nice, as once quote wars expand they tend to slowly drift away from the epicenter of the arguement (especially if good scum is on the defensive) and onto less important things.

I sort of agree with both from what I have seen. I dont like the questions from wicked since a lot of them are WIFOM-ish, and there are few if any strong conclusions that can be drawn from those types of questions. Some answers are even used as tells, which is even scummier. I dont think this is really a vote worthy scenario at this point in the game though.

The back vote on MS also just confuses me, possibly because I agree with him (agreement isnt indicative of alignment... agreement isnt indicative of alignment...), but more so that I think that making a attack with some merit behind it, even if its not the strongest, is a slight town tell as the RVS ends.

So I dont like either of those votes a whole lot at this point, as both players sit pretty near the neutral lien.

I would like to see some final conclusions from Kat pretty soon. Also some stuff from the people who had complained about the random stage.

[Furry]

Well MS basically could of said "It was a question that regardless of an answer would not contribute to the game, and at worst will create WIFOM. That makes it a useless to scummy thing to do so I am voting him for that reason".

That said, I basically agree with him up untill the voting part. If there was a push to use answers to these questions as tells later, then yes, its scummy. Untill then its just annoying and a better course of action is to push him to scumhunt.

[Furry]

I'm just voting for pressure. I do not have any intentions to lynch you.

Wow. LOL.

HoS: CrueKnight

This is funny.

Need to get caught up, but this is a fail of a HoS. Pressure votes work wonders. People play differently under pressure

[Furry]

I think the point is, if you're going to pressure
1) Why say it, thereby giving it away
2) Showing your intention to not lynch, thereby releasing the pressure.


Whats the point of the strat, if you just give away your objectives in the first place. He'd feel no pressure with an empty vote like that imo.

I may not be in the same boat as all you new kids here, but too many people now adays are too informationy. I know that its a great tool, but vague and random will get so much more of a genuine reaction.

Starting a wagon somewhat vaugely is a great way to catch a player off guard, saying its for pressure kind of defeats the purpose though.

[Furry]

i kno wat a fos is what is a hos?

FoS but stronger... so basically FoS. Try not to use HoS, to me it just makes the person using it like they are trying to oversell their suspicion, FoS gets taken more seriously here.

[Furry]

Need to get caught up, but this is a fail of a HoS. Pressure votes work wonders. People play differently under pressure

I know, but he shouldn't say its a pressure vote.

Starting a wagon somewhat vaugely is a great way to catch a player off guard, saying its for pressure kind of defeats the purpose though.

Then why did you call my HoS bad?

Because it was someone making a pressure vote that drew it out... you agree with me that pressure votes are good, so why apply pressure to someone using one (even if they failed to correctly). Right now I fail to get a good analogy going (for some reason im trying to apply it to a knife fight... and cant stop doing so) but, it makes no sense to me.

Where is the rest of my luv triangle?

Also CK wagon is weaker then... a butter knife at a knife fight? Yeah that will do.

[Furry]

So is this a luv line segment now or what? maybe we can forceably (not like that... or maybe like that *handcuffs?*) recruit the replacement.

Anyways, CK wagon is stupid, Haylen wagon is stupid. I would like a SJ or cruel wagon.

DN is mostly right about non-contributing. If its being used, its being used. Apply it equally to all unless you are good enough to subtely get away with it. This is not getting away with it.

[Furry]

DN is mostly right about non-contributing. If its being used, its being used. Apply it equally to all unless you are good enough to subtely get away with it. This is not getting away with it.

For the record I don't necessarily want a Haylen lynch, I want less Haylen spam and more Haylen content.

I think voting for someone means you want them lynched. Then again im not really into the 'hip and trendy' lifestyles that are going on now adays. Does 'dont necessarily want' mean 'would like to have' in today groovy slang?

I would like a SJ or cruel wagon.

Is that me or CrueKnight?

I said CK is a bad lynch quite a few times already hun, so yeah its you.

[Furry]

You dont pressure vote people you dont want lynched. You never vote people you dont want lynched. Pressure votes are more for medium suspects who you wouldnt be against a lynch of, but you like other lynches more.

[Furry]

You dont pressure vote people you dont want lynched. You never vote people you dont want lynched. Pressure votes are more for medium suspects who you wouldnt be against a lynch of, but you like other lynches more.

Furry, this also looks wrong.

You don't pressure vote people you don't want lynched?
Then why pressure vote at all?

What is the point of pressure votes?

To pressure people who you have a slight read on in order to get the necessary reactions. What part of "You never vote people you think are town under any* circumstances" do you not really get here? Pressure slight scum reads, pressure and lynch scum reads, defend town reads.

*After about five minutes I came up with a scenario of high complexity where this can be ok. I can guarentee you this is not such a scenario

[Furry]

Timeout... im noticing we are slipping into semantics instead of trying to argue a point here.

For semantics - Give me a scenario where you think pressure voting someone you think is town is a good thing to do. For bonus points, make it a mountainous (10-2 all vanilla) game day one.

For the point - Cruelty, removing everything regarding lurking/fluff, what do you think of Haylen?

[Furry]

I don't have a read due to lack of content, hence the vote.

Ok now we are starting to get somewhere. So Haylen is a neutral read given lack of content. Why her over other neutral reads?

@wicked - What case of SJs? As far as I can tell its all misunderstanding/misrep over views on pressure votes.

Horribly happy with my vote on SJ, may be even moreso pending a response

[Furry]

For the point - Cruelty, removing everything regarding lurking/fluff, what do you think of Haylen?

Furry, it isnt pressure voting someone who is town.
Its pressure voting someone who's alliance you don't have a definite opinion on.

Which is the point of my question... it was not clear what the read was when things were removed from the push. Rhinox gets it and has a different explaination up. What part of this are you not getting so I can explain better?

I guess it was more convenient to attack Haylen.

lol... yeah im happy with my vote

I expected my old Furry attack to fail.
Also, Rhinox, I disagree with what you said about my new attack on furry; if he turns out to be town, I'll get myself an avatar.

There was more then one attack? Also yeah it will fail when its built like it was, you keep making assumptions about my thought process and calling me scum for what you think I was thinking instead of what I was doing.

Also can I choose your avatar when I die?

[Furry]

@wicked - What case of SJs? As far as I can tell its all misunderstanding/misrep over views on pressure votes.

Post 267 is the case I agreed with.

And that not an inconsistancy, which I addressed already too

I guess it was more convenient to attack Haylen.

lol... yeah im happy with my vote

Why does that comment make you more happy with your vote? [/quote]

Taking a lynch of a lesser suspect because its easy when deadline is not forcing it to happen is a scumtell. He is more inclined to just get a lynch then to get what he views as an ideal lynch

Farada replaces ~Vigilante~.

Yay, luv triangle is back! Fuzzy handcuffs for all! *glee*

[Furry]

Haylen wagon is bad, furry? Why? She's done absolutely nothing.

Almost every lynch ive seen that concentrates on "lurking" as much as this does ends up being a town lynch. Lurking is kind of a scum tell, I prefer to see a few flips and then if lurkers look scummy kill them off fast. Or policy vig habitual ones.

For the point - Cruelty, removing everything regarding lurking/fluff, what do you think of Haylen? 

Why are we removing these things when they're both scummy?

They are applicable to multiple people. Its worth noting where his vote would be if everyones activity level was the exact same, as these are more core (and reliable) tells. Also if he is putting Haylen-town ahead of scum players primarily due to this, then thats a whole 'nother tell on its own.

Also replacing is awesome. I only replace (except for one good theme) although usually its later in the game then page 3. Fuzzy handcuffs are awesome too, dont knock it if you havent tried it.

[Furry]

I don't think asking to remove things from a person's play is helpful though, I mean I guess I see what you're after just don't think it's very helpful.

Why?

Its worthwhile to see what is considered as equivilant or greater then lurking, the more you can force someone to give opinions on why X > Y >> Z the better chances you have of catching them trying to save partners later by switching stuff up.

[Furry]

Seven people are not voting. This should be fixed in 48 hours.

[Furry]

I don't think asking to remove things from a person's play is helpful though, I mean I guess I see what you're after just don't think it's very helpful.

Why?

Its worthwhile to see what is considered as equivilant or greater then lurking, the more you can force someone to give opinions on why X > Y >> Z the better chances you have of catching them trying to save partners later by switching stuff up.

Because it just doesn't work like that. You can't just remove an aspect of someone's play, that's scummy, it's nearly impossible to then analyse the rest of their play. It's everything together, and in general I don't think there should be concrete opinions on scumtells, per se, it all depends on the context.

Im an engineer, I try and quanitiate things as much as possible due to it being how my brain functions. Every tell is not exactly the same as scenarios surrounding it cause it to weigh differently, but every tell does have a distinct weight, and seeing how much of the case comes from an exact tell is something I want to see.

For the point - Cruelty, removing everything regarding lurking/fluff, what do you think of Haylen? 

Why are we removing these things when they're both scummy?

They are applicable to multiple people. Its worth noting where his vote would be if everyones activity level was the exact same, as these are more core (and reliable) tells. Also if he is putting Haylen-town ahead of scum players primarily due to this, then thats a whole 'nother tell on its own.

Haylen-town?

My vote is where it is, I'm not sure what you want from me? The second-most scummy player on my list? I aint gonna delve into that. I'm not ruling out the possibility that she's town, but I'm happy enough with my vote given 4 things.

1: The lack of content preceding my attack.
2: The lack of content following my attack.
3: The OMGUS vote that she claimed wasn't OMGUS (lol??).
4: Her reaction. Very, very defensive, bad excuses, etc etc.


I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand Furry - this isn't a case of my voting a lurker, this is a case of Haylen active lurking. Not only that, but there's been absolutely no attempt to rectify the situation. This would have made my vote go away - a couple of juicy posts with a bunch of thoughts would have been enough to compel me to move on to someone else, this never happened. I don't understand why, but I don't like it and thus the vote stays.

Ok see now I get it a bit. 1 and 4 I dont see as tells at all, in fact I would be happy policy lynching anyone who uses "overdefensive" as a tell, worst tell ever. 2 I can see, but I think people acting scummy > not contributing, also I dont think the case is as OMGUS as you think it is. Everyone thinks something against them is more unfounded/OMGUSy then it is.

Lets try this though, why Haylen over other non-contributors?

Also if he is putting Haylen-town ahead of scum players primarily due to this, then thats a whole 'nother tell on its own.

Huh?

I don't know why you're defending her, unless you're privy to some information I don't have. Thus far she's contributed nothing and this somehow isn't worth a vote? This isn't scummy? Are you serious?

I defend people I dont want lynched, wait untill someone puts pressure on someone I think is town if you think this is defending. There are other noncontributors, including some which I know can be active, so just going for one is something im not comfortable with. Also I prefer legit scummy over lurker scummy untill the lurker does something scummy.

People not voting, vote now. Seriously

[Furry]

Overdefensive is a crap tell mainly due to it being subjective. You may think (and do) something is overdefensive that I dont, or others dont. Due to it being subjective, really anything can be called overdefensive if you try to make it. Plus you always defend yourself, either outright or subtely, in games. I see it as something that is used to bolster a weak case by attempting to add more to it.

What exactly makes something overdefensive as opposed to defending oneself then? I see absolutely no difference in this.

[Furry]

Did we get that deadline extension?

If not we need to orginize something. I dont like the CK wagon in the least bit, and the Haylen wagon doesnt look too great either. This is a all or none deadline game though I think.

[Furry]

If not we need to orginize something. I dont like the CK wagon in the least bit, and the Haylen wagon doesnt look too great either.

Make a case and push it. This looks you putting down a soapbox that you can stand on tomorrow in the event of a mislynch.

Ive seen saying stuff on SJ for quite a while now, but reitterating really cant hurt anything I suppose.

He was one of the people who were just sitting there and complaining about the RVS early while doing nothing to try and get out of it. More then once it was mentioned as a part of the game that he did not like, but he just coasted along in it with things like

Random Vote: J-fox

Random vote...or random WAGON????

Ok. I'm bored with the whole RVS thing already.

No, he would have RVSed someone else, someone w/ mre votes if he erally wanted to wagon.

Not serious at all.

Times tos stops das funnies.

/s proceeds tos dos quicks res-reads

@SJ - Any luck with ending the RVS?

We're getting there.

I hate Haylen's love of the RVS.

Just kicking back, doing nothing in the RVS (which should end early), while he seems to realize that its anti-town to perpetuate it.

Eventually we get this little exchange

Also, I still don't see what CrueKnight's voting habits were as a valid scumtell. But its worth a finger of suspicion.

Why FoS? Why not vote? What is the line between the two?

1. Stop random voting. I do this by doing what I'm doing. To end the RVS, just enamate feelings of RVS-endingness

2. The line between the two is how valid I feel the suspicion.[/quote]

Feeling for a wagon here more then anything else. "Oh CK is kind of scummy, but im not going to vote him, or really give a solid explaination as to why im not voting". A very noncommital step towards a wagon, that could quickly be pulled back if things even start to go a little bit south, but strong enough to get on the wagon if needed. I dont know the vote count now, but im betting that SJ is on the CK wagon.


Later we get a 'case'

Crueknight has only spammed
and defended himself. And was kinda dumb about it, too.
His voting pattern consists of his random vote, and then his self vote.

He fits my mold of scum/badtown.

-Spamming (which almost everyone was doing)
-Defending himself "dumbly" (what exactly is 'dumbly' and why is it a tell?)
-Random/selfvote (why is this a tell?)

SJ is already saying that he could easily be newb town though, still keeping the groundwork for a jump if its needed.

More stuff later on his slide to attacking haylen which he himself said was 'convienent'

[Furry]

Succinct reports of the game's progress up until now are appreciated before I begin the inquisition.

Im just trying to make a case... I never expected you to give me the spanish inquisition

Right now there is a CK wagon based on... being a lot of peoples secondary suspect. Someone on this wagon can likely explain it better.

Haylen wagon based on half lurking/fluff posting, half... OMGUS/reactions?

Im hoping for a SJ push by deadline

[Furry]

I need to get read up a bit, but this game is major deja vu for me in more ways then one with another one where people I though were definantly or likely town were getting deadline lynched.

[Furry]

you think that Haylen is definitely town? CrueKnight? why?

CK I would put a decent wager on being town (I would target him as a hider for example). The case on him mostly seems to be on weak reasoning, when I went through I had a hard time figuring anything out on it. Out of the four people voting him I have a

slight

town read on one (SB), the rest I wouldnt shed a tear if they got vigged. It just has quite a few of the markings of a wagon on town that is being pushed enough to be an alternative if a big wagon falls apart.

Haylen I dont see my vote going to outside of a deadline lynch, mostly due to a case *mostly* based on lurking. Im not a big lynch lurkers fan untill there is evidence (role or connection) that they are scum. When there are people who are legitimately scummy, they are a really poor lynch choice. If they are town, it has good chances of resulting in another mislynch.

So yeah, not voting CK, dont plan on voting Haylen.

Also I see haylen claimed vig, I still would prefer not to lynch her (deja vu gets greater), if she is SK/scum she will need to use her kill like it now.

[Furry]

Deja vu game

Day one town got ran up. I thought he was insanely obviously town, made a hell of a lot of noise about it, he claimed RB and got lynched. Day two another player got ran up who I was pretty sure was town, eventually broke down to get a deadline lynch and they were town again. Both of those days feels so much like whats going on here I cant shake it, I have my reads, no one bothers to listen to me, town gets screwed.

I will openly admit that my town-dar is better then scum-dar in most games. This one is telling me there is no way that CK is scum, and Haylen is probably town as well.

[Furry]

Crueknight has only spammed

and defended himself. And was kinda dumb about it, too.

His voting pattern consists of his random vote, and then his self vote.

He fits my mold of scum/badtown.

-Spamming (which almost everyone was doing)

-Defending himself "dumbly" (what exactly is 'dumbly' and why is it a tell?)

-Random/selfvote (why is this a tell?)

SJ is already saying that he could easily be newb town though, still keeping the groundwork for a jump if its needed.

This is misrepresenting SolemnJ. You are starting to look scummier. Also, the SolemnJ case isn't good.

???

So which of my colorful lines is wrong then?

Back to SJ case in a little

[Furry]

Furry - Do you have anything to refute the arguments against CrueKnight and Haylen, or is this a gut feeling?

Haylen just seems to be "is lazy" case for the most part, Im not going to disagree with it, but I dont like the lynch. CK if someone could really clearly outline I bet I can refute

[Furry]

O.o

I see an inconsistency.

I think voting for someone means you want them lynched. Then again im not really into the 'hip and trendy' lifestyles that are going on now adays. Does 'dont necessarily want' mean 'would like to have' in today groovy slang?

I'm just voting for pressure. I do not have any intentions to lynch you.

Wow. LOL.

HoS: CrueKnight

This is funny.

Need to get caught up, but this is a fail of a HoS. Pressure votes work wonders. People play differently under pressure

So...voting not only to lynch is good or bad? You're being unclear, scum.

Anyways, on to this whole debacle. I will ask this again since people havent answered this, and without an answer any case on me based on it gets a hole punched down the middle.

When is it acceptable to try and pressure vote someone that you have a town read on?
When is it acceptable to ever have a vote on a player you have a town read on?

Pressure voting a player is always fine, but you should always be willing to have that player lynched. A vote to lynch is a little more serious about that then pressure, but you should never say "damn I didnt want them lynched, I though they were town" if somehow a 10x multipost occurs lynching a player.

I mean frick, how hard is it for people to grasp this concept. Dont vote town, vote scum, pressure slight scum. Tah-dah!

You dont pressure vote people you dont want lynched. You never vote people you dont want lynched. Pressure votes are more for medium suspects who you wouldnt be against a lynch of, but you like other lynches more.

Furry, this also looks wrong.

You don't pressure vote people you don't want lynched?
Then why pressure vote at all?

What is the point of pressure votes?

-Correct (if im reading that double negative right)
-To see how slight scum reads react
-To see how players react to pressure on them

I guess it was more convenient to attack Haylen.

Dont think its necessary to elaborate on this when it was made well over a week to deadline

The reason that I thought CK only deserved an FoS at the time was because it was possible CrueKnight had just made a towniemistake.

You can just say fencesitting instead of this excuse. What makes it a town-slip as opposed to scumtell?

Anyways, poker is starting. Will try and finish this tonight in hopes that we get that extension by tomorrow.

[Furry]

Furry often the point of a pressure vote is to get a read - I personally never had a town read on Haylen, and her reaction hasn't impressed me at all.

I know thats whats going on at this point, SJ seems to be trying to turn something along those lines into a scumtell though which is why im getting flustered.

@wicked - If Haylen flips town, you might have to take her place in the fuzzy handcuffs... or maybe cruel... Ill have time to ponder im sure

This is also me not hammering... more to make a point then anything else though. If it really comes down to it or no lynch I would vote

[Furry]

Dont worry if haylenn is town guys. I take good care of my

prisoners

house guests

[Furry]

You still need to respond to my color code thing hun...

Just need to be completely sure that im going back to my yesterday vote so im going to do some skimming.

[Furry]

CK I would put a decent wager on being town (I would target him as a hider for example). The case on him mostly seems to be on weak reasoning, when I went through I had a hard time figuring anything out on it. Out of the four people voting him I have a slight town read on one (SB), the rest I wouldnt shed a tear if they got vigged. It just has quite a few of the markings of a wagon on town that is being pushed enough to be an alternative if a big wagon falls apart.

Haylen I dont see my vote going to outside of a deadline lynch, mostly due to a case *mostly* based on lurking. Im not a big lynch lurkers fan untill there is evidence (role or connection) that they are scum. When there are people who are legitimately scummy, they are a really poor lynch choice. If they are town, it has good chances of resulting in another mislynch.

You don't seem to be trying to divert the bandwagon to somebody you do suspect.

Please explain why the points against CrueKnight are bad. Don't just say they are bad. That doesn't do anything.

Also, you are underestimating the case against Haylen. It is not just lurking.

I was trying to get something on SJ started near the end of the day

Give me a clean outline of a CK wagon and I will explain why each point
is bad, that way im not missing things.

It was enough of lurking based things for me to not like it at all.

Also, please explain your town reads.

CK is town, the wagon on him is weak and most people are treating him as "yeah, kind of scummy", so the wagon is always there. This is something that I associate more with a town wagon then a scum wagon, especially when its one of two competing wagons. Couple that with what I said yesterday about SB being the only one on that wagon I even has a slight town read on, and im calling him town.

I liked what I saw from MS early in the exchanges, and rhinox came in looking town to me. Less then CK, but still enough to bring up. Kat is also gut-ish town, nothing concrete to back it up, but I dont really see him as scum.

Crueknight has only spammed

and defended himself. And was kinda dumb about it, too.

His voting pattern consists of his random vote, and then his self vote.

He fits my mold of scum/badtown.

-Spamming (which almost everyone was doing)

-Defending himself "dumbly" (what exactly is 'dumbly' and why is it a tell?)

-Random/selfvote (why is this a tell?)

SJ is already saying that he could easily be newb town though, still keeping the groundwork for a jump if its needed.

This is misrepresenting SolemnJ. You are starting to look scummier. Also, the SolemnJ case isn't good.

???

So which of my colorful lines is wrong then?

Back to SJ case in a little

The orange and purple lines were misrepresentations.

Purple I can see you argue, but orange I dont see as a misrep in the least bit.

1: When is it acceptable to try and pressure vote someone that you have a town read on?
2: When is it acceptable to ever have a vote on a player you have a town read on?

1: There is nothing wrong with it, but I don't think it is unneccessary.

2: For pressure. There is nothing wrong with voting somebody to pressure them to confirm your town read on them. I have done it before.

I dont like putting any pressure on town reads, they just move up and down in strength usually do to observation. Putting pressure on town reads will normally open up doors for others to put pressure on them, plus if I see you voting someone and calling them town at the same time, im going to be pushing your lynch.

Pressure voting a player is always fine, but you should always be willing to have that player lynched. A vote to lynch is a little more serious about that then pressure, but you should never say "damn I didnt want them lynched, I though they were town" if somehow a 10x multipost occurs lynching a player.

I mean frick, how hard is it for people to grasp this concept. Dont vote town, vote scum, pressure slight scum. Tah-dah!

Alright then. Consider the following possibility. DeathNote is still in the game and is hardly posting in the thread. For this reason, I have a neutral read on him. I vote him to pressure him and make him come and defend himself. When he does this, I look at his reaction to the vote to try and determine his allignment. Even though I voted him, and even though I didn't have a town read on him, and even though I didn't want him lynched, it was still a pressure vote. This is an example of how pressure votes aren't always towards players you want lynched. So, you did in fact contradict yourself.

Ummm... if you are coming up with a scenario like that doesnt mean I have contridicted myself. First off, I wouldnt ever of voted DN for that scenario, using others to get reads on him is better. Second, when I am voting someone for pressure, I am always at least somewhat ok with their lynch. I could be pressuing a secondary suspect, or a slight read, but whoever I am voting I would always be ok lynching.

This really does not have anything to do with alignments in this game though, just difference of opinions.

@wicked - If Haylen flips town, you might have to take her place in the fuzzy handcuffs... or maybe cruel... Ill have time to ponder im sure

Why me? Why cruelty? Why not SolemnJ?

You staying on the CK wagon while seeming content with the Haylen wagon going to a mislynch. It seems like you were avoiding the mislynch while staying on a different wagon I consider a mislynch. Cruel... just bothers me a bit on a gut level, nothing too much on that. I would rather play house with people who I dont think are top picks though.

Either way, its just fuzzy handcuffs. You are in good paws hun. Also reading a bit too much into me having fun, fun is an essential in these games you know.

[Furry]

I should be able to post something substantial later today once I get back to PA. One thing that makes me curious is why is furry so strongly defending ck as if he knows he's town... this was going on yesterday as well. I can understand saying that there isn't enough evidence to support ck being scum, but I certainly wouldn't call him town enough to avidly defend against his lynch. This sorta reeks of hypo-scum furry wanting to get town cred for trying to prevent a townie mislynch.

vote: furry

This is how I play, I get a town read and im going to all out defend the town read. I dont think there is a game where I have not done this, in some cases much more then what I have in this game. Hell I know what happens in these scenarios too, if they get lynched I get ran up. If I can stop the lynch though its worth it.

[Furry]

This is how I play, I get a town read and im going to all out defend the town read.

I don't really like people defending others. There's no real reason to do it as town (provided the person in question has an opportunity to defend themselves) and multiple reasons to do it as scum. Don't misunderstand - I have no issue with attacking a case, but you've definitively said that CK is town, and this is an example of a personal defence. To the point where there's been attacks coming in at him, and he hasn't replied at all today.

I feel that under no scenario you should be letting someone who you think is town get lynched. If it means outright defending someone, I will outright defend someone. If it means moving a vote to stop them from getting lynched, then I will move a vote. Not allowing town to be lynched is quite an effective way of letting town win.

Hell I know what happens in these scenarios too, if they get lynched I get ran up. If I can stop the lynch though its worth it.

How is it worth it if you (as town) get "ran up" anyway? Surely that'd be a) a massive distraction for town (pro-scum) and b) a mislynch and again, pro-scum.

I don't like this stance in general. Defence won't win the battle for town, we need scumhunting, and regardless of CK's alignment, you're not actually contributing to this. You look busy, but I'm not sure how much actual pro-town content you're firing out.

I said ran up, I didnt say lynched. Im good enough at being able to talk my way out of most scenarios, mostly because in these situations the majority of the case against me is "called someone town" when that is exactly what I did, and will readily admit to doing.

Its not really ever a distraction, as after people burn out on that, scumhunting returns. I did quite a bit of pushing at the end of the last day on SJ, who on a skim-read of day one, I still like as the best pick for scum.

[Furry]

Crueknight has only spammed

and defended himself. And was kinda dumb about it, too.

His voting pattern consists of his random vote, and then his self vote.

He fits my mold of scum/badtown.

-Spamming (which almost everyone was doing)

-Defending himself "dumbly" (what exactly is 'dumbly' and why is it a tell?)

-Random/selfvote (why is this a tell?)

SJ is already saying that he could easily be newb town though, still keeping the groundwork for a jump if its needed.

This is misrepresenting SolemnJ. You are starting to look scummier. Also, the SolemnJ case isn't good.

???

So which of my colorful lines is wrong then?

Back to SJ case in a little

The orange and purple lines were misrepresentations.

1: Purple I can see you argue, 2: but orange I dont see as a misrep in the least bit.

1: So it

was

misrepresenting?

2: I'll explain this one when SolemnJ returns.

Purple can be interpreted different ways (voting pattern/general uselessness) so if you see it different there can be debate. Orange I still wait for how im in the least bit wrong.

3: Sort of. You contradicted yourself, and now you are trying to pretend to have this strange opinion on the subject in order to defend yourself. I can not see how you wouldn't understand this.

I see no contridiction with what im saying. My playstyle, especially surrounding votes, is different then most, a vote means a whole lot and should be taken seriously. But this even stemmed from something that is already resolved (vote on haylen when she was viewed as neutral as opposed to town). Just try and quote the two contridicting lines and I will explain whatever is going on there.

So your reasons for suspecting me are basically because I supported the Haylen lynch and also suspected a person you believe to be town? Also, what about SolemnJ?

Yes, you supported the mislynch while not being on the wagon. At the same time you were sitting on a wagon of another person who I think is a mislynch. Because of the second wagon you were not a part of the mislynch wagon.

I shouldnt of brought up fuzzy handcuffs at all really, but this is fun now. Houseguests of mine are in good paws, I would prefer not to play doctor with someone I think is a bad person, they arent as fun. But I take it you dont like fuzzy handcuffs?

Vote SJ

I can quote what I said yesterday or people can go look back a few pages, their call

[Furry]

See my post #7, my post #25, and my post #26 in isolation. Also, please explain how forgetting his reasons for voting somebody wasn't scummy.

Then you are in fact underestimating the case. There were pretty good points on page 10.

7 is a slightly valid point, not really something to lynch for though.

25 looking at it, I think CK is right for the wrong reasons. You also are taking some liberties in interpretation such as "voting for pressure" has nothing to do with "trying to get an explaination"

26 is a lot of the same thing... I dont think there is a huge differnece between these two reasons. Possibly im sympathetic to this given my read on who he was voting, but I think it makes some sense.

Not sure what else im missing from what you had.

[Furry]

Also, Furry, can you respond to this:

1: What's wrong with coming up with another scenario? You said voting for somebody means you want them lynched. You also said pressure votes can be very helpful (or something like that). It doesn't matter that I brought up another scenario.

It just shows that there are scenarios where pressure votes don't mean votes for a lynch.

Also, who cares if you wouldn't have voted for him? It is just a scenario I came up with. You are doing a poor job of defending yourself.

As far as I am concerned, this is false. You may pressure vote someone who isnt your IDEAL lynch, but anyone who deserves a pressure vote is someone that you would not be against a lynch of. Period.

Lets say player A is scummy, so I vote player A. Player B who I have slight suspicions of starts acting stubborn and wont explain something that someone is asking him, so I pressure vote player B. In that situation, a player B lynch isnt a bad thing to me. I would prefer a player A lynch, but B is acceptable. Now lets say player C who I think is town is being useless, im not going to pressure vote him for it, because player C (being town) is a BAD lynch.

I really dont get how I can explain this any clearer

[Furry]

Furry, I think I see what you are saying. One more question: Let's say that I vote for somebody that hasn't done anything scummy nor townie, and I do it mainly to pressure vote them. Does that mean I want them lynched?

I dunno, I wouldnt be pressure voting a neutral/no read.

If you are voting someone you should be fine with their lynch though.

[Furry]

Ive been busy recently, plus I live about an hour from San Fransisco and it snowed here for the first time I can actually remember so have been having fun.

Anyways - I would vote wicked over cruelty right now, even though I dont really think it would be much more then an deadline lynch right now to me. I actually side more with looking in different areas (SJ is prefered, but I like the malp pressure too).

Will try and get more caught up tonight.

[Furry]

Furry: between wicked and cruelty, do either give you the conviction that they are more likely scum

wicked would be in my top few shots if I just went down the list with no reveal, I cant tell how much of this is from very solid tells and how much of this is from him misinterpreting my stuff enough that its making me wonder if it can even be unintentional. cruel would be in the middle ground. I dont want a lynch of him today by any means, but at the same time I dont have enough of a town read on him to make a fuss over him getting votes like some people.

Should be able to transfer time over from other stuff that has been sapping it tonight/tomorrow and continue pushing SJ a bit. I do like malp pressure, but want to keep toying with what I have for the time being.

[Furry]

Im in more then one game hun. Back to this one now though.

[Furry]

1. There's a middle ground; those you have no read on. You pressure those who are scum, and those others who have not shown towntells.

2. Just repeating your own double negative;
neways: this goes back to number 1. And this doesnt seem to be an attack on me.

3. Procrastination is bad. I should have done it sooner. It would have led to a better end of a Day 1.

4. The voice in the back of my mind. Always, the number of possible outcomes are many, and one shouldn't assume things with haste. /emphasizes last part.

Hm...now I don't see much of an attack. Gimme some more.

Im not going to argue who gets pressured anymore. Its gotten into a very distracting arguement over semantics that really is not going to accomplish anything.

You shrugged off the whole "convienant" thing here. You didnt push your top suspect and instead went after secondary ones far away from deadline. You basically are saying "yeah I messed up". You are admitting that this is a strong and valid tell in the shadow of Haylen flipping town?

So you should never take a stance because there is always a chance that your opinion might change? If your mind changes it changes. You say why it did, and move on. You are outright refusing to take a solid stance on a player because your mind might change, this sure just sounds like a way to get out of ever taking a stance to me.

[Furry]

Thought I posted yesterday, sorry about that one.

If I had to give a three list

SolemnJ
Torque replacement (Dana I think)
Malp replacement (krunk?)

[Furry]

Why do you seem sure of ck Furry?

Because I have a strong town read on him. I trust my town reads much more then my scum reads, and will defend them quite aggressively when I think that they are in any peril.

@cruel - That is not helpful if you want wicked lynched. It is turning into kunk-wicked at an alarming rate, and this actually is detracting from your chosen wagon.

Will spend the next day rereading wicked-malp/kunk, although I think kunk is the better vote at first glance.

[Furry]

unvote
vote kunk

I didnt have much of an issue with Kat who cades is replacing. SJ is apparently not getting lynched, and if we low on time. This is really the only lynch that I see as decent and possible at this point, so will take it.

@CK - I have explained my read on you a few times before. I play quite a bit by my town reads, if you dont like it you dont like it, but its not going to be changing.

[Furry]

Had field work today, got a tick wedged in me pretty good (yes irony I know). Went to the place to get them out, they tried the burning thing and the tick died (wasnt supposed to happen), then when tried to pull it out the head came off (also not supposed to happen), so I had to have them dig it out which hurt quite a bit and im on some pain med things and a little loopy. Tomorrow I get to go back and make sure I dont have lyme disease, any other tick illness or its infected.

Will try and read up tonight when I think I will be thinking striaght.

Anyone want a Dana/Torque quicklynch instead of this cades one? That much I dont need to get sane to know I prefer it.

[Furry]

Time to start laying down some things.

First, I am against the cades lynch. If we are going to lynch someone who is lurking, we are going to lynch dana/torque. There is a lot more legitimately scummy behavior from him, as compared to more uselessness from cades, and a neutrally vibe from Kat. The only reason this is a viable wagon is that it will be good for information regarding this shift + earlier views on cades.

Kunk im horribly torn on given that im partial to vanilla claims usually. It seems that, especially when faced with a deadline, that vanilla claims increase in odds for being truthful. I dont really like the timing of this one, but I get into trouble going against gut reads usually. This all brings me to my main point though

Solemn or Dana is the right lynch today. Im thuroughly convinced of that. SJ I think is scummy from earlier, and now he is taking a whole lot of questionable stances as the wagons shift around at deadline.

Last few post have his have gone

-cades vote
-unvote because two days is a lot of time
-kunk has acted like VT
-suspicion of wicked
-wanting wicked (on LA) to post

Then we have Torque who recently became Dana.

Torque entire suspicions for the game can be summed up as
-CK for using smilies (he actually voted him seriously pushing him to L-2 for this)
-CK for possibly softclaiming a masonish role

yeah thats it. He never touched on Haylen, he never touched on anyone. The times he did make moves, it was on someone who I not only have down as town, but also for reasons that are up there amungst the worst that I have ever seen someone seriously push a lynch over.

Dana comes in with new suspects but continues the trend of reasoning that really is in the pits. Votes here are
-wicked for being eager
-CK for being suspected by SB
**side note, when pressured by wicked he just says 'im not voting you, doesnt matter'. Add dodging of reasoning to the list of reasons to be lynching him
-cruel and me appear on his list next for no reason I can find whatsoever
-cades for lurking (when he didnt appear in his top three two days earlier)
**when being pressured again for the cades vote he suddenly seems really unsure of himself being there

[Furry]

Also:
-cades vote
-unvote because two days is a lot of time
-kunk has acted like VT
-suspicion of wicked
-wanting wicked (on LA) to post

None of this is scummy. How are they questionable?

The cades move was odd, because you claimed it was because of deadline, then suddenly decided that there was more time, but never made a vote on another player. Later you sort of back the wicked push, but never (untill recently) made a vote on the wagon.

The times he did make moves, it was on someone who I not only have down as town, but also for reasons that are up there amungst the worst that I have ever seen someone seriously push a lynch over.

When does scum use bad reasons to try to push a lynch on D2?

... to get a not-them lynch?

The arguement "it was bad reasoning, he cant be scum" is weak.

I do like what you pointed out on wicked over the cades wagon that I really dislike. I will be able to post again before deadline, and unless something major happens will vote wicked then for the sake of a lynch.

[Furry]

unvote
vote wicked

Its better then a no lynch

[Furry]

@dana - Its time to take off the shackles and strech! A new morning! With luck a new beginning... if you are in to that kind of beginning *nuzzle*... if not disregard that.

Anyways, if you could of gotten ANY lynch yesterday what one would it of been?

@SJ - Same question, just without all the kinky stuff.

[Furry]

Given what we know I'd much rather devour a late bandwagoner on the wicked lynch rather than a useless lurker, but then again even lurkers can be scum.

Why?

I still am not a huge cades lurker-lynch fan. If we are lurker lynching it really should be dana, even though the SJ lynch sure still looks better to it then me. Once dana and SJ answer my questions I will have thoughts up on the matter of which one of them should be getting the axe (hint its probably SJ).

[Furry]

Cruelity (my bad on trying to spell)
I would like you to go into great detail why you voted cadres.

Ive been wondering why cades over dana myself actually. No one seems to have a good answer for me there.

[Furry]

Ok I can completely see calling someone who has claimed VT town. I have done that on more then one occasion, its just a matter of getting a read on the scenario. Claiming that you have VT/cop/doc all figured out though, asides from being partially reckless, is just stupid.

Also if you notice, SJs suspicion list just went back to me when yesterday he only seemed interested on lynching others that connected to me. Doesnt jive

[Furry]

@cruel - We really arent going to lynch 'useless' or 'lurker' today. Either way if we do end up ever doing a lynch partially or completely based on that, its going to be dana. I outlined what we have experienced from that slot already, and I think what the cades case is doesnt even start to compare to it.

[Furry]

What exactly would be part of the "cadres case"?

I think its 'lurked in a dick-ish manner'

[Furry]

Oh and:

Happy Birthday Furry!

*snuggle*

[Furry]

What does everyone think of a mass claim or is it best to hold off for another day?

It wouldnt be bad, but waiting a day is going to be better.

Also both my suspects are flaking, this really sucks.

[Furry]

HI DANA!

I see you posted in another game. I miss you in this one, I want my questions answered less you want to see more of me around.

[Furry]

Also both my suspects are flaking, this really sucks.

That sucks mate, I might o missed this post but who would be you two suspects?

SolemnJ and danakillsu

HI DANA!

I see you posted in another game. I miss you in this one, I want my questions answered less you want to see more of me around.

hmm sounds like u scared here away...

Im used to people being uncomfortable and not wanting to be around me for that reason. Its fun to mess with those types however. Anyways, I still want my questions answered

Also its cause you spelled quote wrong

Also iso is short for isolation. Meaning only looking at one players posts

[Furry]

I didn't have any other great reasons for voting heilo - now I do. I tend to believe that ignorance is a reasonable scumtell (IMO scum are more likely to skimread looking for threads to pull, and are therefore more likely to miss things).

I actually associate that level of ignorance with town. At least as scum im a whole lot more careful with presenting ideas then I am as town.

Also miscillaneous obscenities at my top two suspects likely needing to be replaced.

[Furry]

Do you think they call it 'fall' because the leaves fall or the tempuratures or is it a metaphor? Summer IS the high point of the year, after that its a long slow drop. So then we should call spring 'rise'. Summer could be 'hover'. Winter could be 'lurk' or 'stand down' even. Or maybe its some kind of loss of innocence thing. Spring is ascension, summer is a state of grace, then the fall, and winter is... we cant call it 'the firey pit of hell' due to the tempurature since that would be confusing...

If people are going to keep being so quiet my mind is just gunna keep doing it own thing.

[Furry]

yeah this isnt a point to be massclaiming

Im just a little stalled right now since my top two suspects both are going to need to be replaced it looks like, and I usually have a hard time when people get replaced with reads since people are inherantly different. I lean SJ over dana about 60-40, but its a long term over short term thing. Since im leaning SJ I should really be voting him. Talking to yourself can be good at times

Vote SJ

[Furry]

who should i vote for and why?

You should be answering that one for yourself hun

i find the fact that furry avoided the hammer to be odd.

Ive only lynched someone I thought was obviously town once, and guess what, they were town. Not going to be voting someone I think is town.

the most common anti-town role fakeclaiming vig is and sk. it is pointless to lynch an sk on day 1. not sure why you guys didn't catch that.

You lynch anti-town, they need to be dead to win.

So who is scum? You seem to of read the game so lets hear it.

[Furry]

Go read the game, at very least skim it

[Furry]

yourself because you got a scum PM?

Seriously, you are the top vote getter. If the vote counts are so useful, go look at them and tell me who is scum. You claim to of read around the end of day one, who is scum based of that?

[Furry]

yourself because you got a scum PM?

this is just rude. if you don't want to present me with the case you seem to have on me so that i may respond with correlated analysis, then what is my incentive to be civil with you? i don't think i'm being rude here. my question should have rendered an actual answer. i know its frustrating to deal with replacements but its important to remember that replacing in isn't ever easy.

Probably was a bit over the line, but im a little tense right now with spring semester starting monday and having to move back to campus saturday (yeah that means light V/LA untill I get stuff worked out, dont expect me to be super active for a weekish).

But dont complain about replacing. That is almost all I ever do, so I know it can be hard, also I know that fully reading helps get a bearing on the game. Doubly so if you read BEFORE you get your role, as your role will skew your opinion on the game.

Seriously, you are the top vote getter. If the vote counts are so useful, go look at them and tell me who is scum. You claim to of read around the end of day one, who is scum based of that?

good idea. vote count analysis is how i caught my last scum. my top two suspects at the end of day 1 were you for your avoidance of the hammer and wickedestjr who i believe flipped town.

Right, I defend town reads. Haylen was a town read, so I was not going to be trying to get a town read, who was a town PR, who was proveable as a killing role, who wanted to kill mostly people I though were scum, lynched.

So what came of the VC analysis?

[Furry]

Hey DJ, you have a case for us yet?

[Furry]

Is anyone against the SJ/DJ lynch at this point? Im a little surprised and concerned that there has been zero attempt to derail or move this wagon. The game is moving slow, but I think if this was a scum wagon, there would be something happening to of stopped it from getting to a lynch, as opposed to letting it drift to a deadline one like it is. That said I really dont like a SC/follist lynch. I had a neutralish read on that slot that has progressed to a slight town one.

The other option that I see is a DKU/whoever that is now lynch. May of said a bit too much, but this is a good question for all to answer

@all

- What is a better lynch? DJ or Alk (DKU rep). Give maybe one or two sentances on this. If they are both town, give me a good reason to vote whoever is scum.

Deadline is monday, I might have weak access this weekend too as a forwarning. I think I can get a few posts in so will do what I need to if it comes to it.

@SC - What about the wicked wagon do you want me explaining? I think ive explained my thought process well on it. It was a deadline lynch, and my thought process is laid out.

[Furry]

Is anyone against the SJ/DJ lynch at this point? Im a little surprised and concerned that there has been zero attempt to derail or move this wagon. The game is moving slow, but I think if this was a scum wagon, there would be something happening to of stopped it from getting to a lynch, as opposed to letting it drift to a deadline one like it is. That said I really dont like a SC/follist lynch. I had a neutralish read on that slot that has progressed to a slight town one.

Not against it but I'm liking don quite a lot atm actually.
The wagon seems to have sort of come out of no-where too. I mean I don't really like SolemnJ's latter play but he looks okay early and Dj's a cool player and he seems to be trying.

Was looking for a "Would not lynch, would lynch at deadline or would lynch without deadline". Looks like the second one am I right?

i'm going to give a read over the last few pages and see what i think before putting downa vote. i'm tempted to just go with my gut, in all honesty and do what that tells me as i can't seem to find much else via re-reading. let's see anyway

Whats your gut? I really cant recall it of the top of my head here. (maybe dana?)

[Furry]

Heilo and Alkaline have continued their slots trend of nothing basically. We avoided a cades lynch yesterday so he could be replaced, and that didn't work out so well. And once again we are coming to a deadline lynch with barely any real direction.

O captain my captain, lead on then as to who is scum! You arent even voting, so you are the last one that gets to be complaining here about us not lynching anyone.

[Furry]

furry: 916 is as useless(if not moreso) as the post it quotes. what are your reads on sirchris and cruelty and what do you think of the recent vote shift?

Babe if you want me to be all snippy this is a great way to encourage that. Anyways, SC I have a medium town read on. You can actually see why he is vote hopping, and how his thoughts are progressing. Nothing strikes me as out of personality of somewhat obviously a scum move. Cruel gut was quite active on early, but since then has slowly slid town. I would actually prefer a lynch of him over SC at this point, although ideally we wouldnt be lynching either.

@SC - If we are going lurker (which we really shouldnt) it should be whoever is in the dana spot

[Furry]

Also out of curiosity, and paranoia, how do you see my thoughts progressing? I'd like for you to explain that comment to me in more detail.

kay. Today is the best example. You went from a top of your head gut suspicion of me, which as scum would of been probably a good push since lots of people have me as a secondary suspicion.

Vote: Furry

My mind isn't getting very good reads at the moment, but my gut is telling me to kill Furry. Something about their posts just doesn't sit well with me in general. I am going to go back and iso SJ and Furry, and see what I find.

This changed to

Actually, in a major plot twist and after ISOing SJ, I no longer need to use my gut, my head tells me different.

Unvote

Vote: SJ

Just looks terrible after an ISO, willing to lynch almost everything that moves. The way he posts is just so very scummy to me, I don't like it. Also my scum reads usually get better after my first read, so let's do this.

Which became elaborated upon for the next few weeks before I pointed out lack of resistance, where you made a move off the wagon to cruelty.

I can see where every change of opinion happened, and I know why every change of opinion happened. Scum playing with that much deliberance usually has to be very careful about their moves, since there is no way to deny involvement.

While I dont really agree with all your moves, I understand your justification for them. In a game that is more or less stalled, pushing the action is a town tell.

[Furry]

That spot seems to be very unattractive for some reason, I wonder why.

As in it just gets replaced a lot or its a good wagon?

[Furry]

That spot seems to be very unattractive for some reason, I wonder why.

As in it just gets replaced a lot or its a good wagon?

Other Stuff

[Furry]

Oh, right, that.

Just that it got replaced a lot.

I refer you to my previous emoticon

Do you think that the slot is scummy at all?

[Furry]

I don't see any reason why scum would keep replacing out like that, so no.

Replacing is not a town tell (after extensive replacing I would actually agrue it is a very very small scum tell). Either way its not something to base, dismiss a case on. General scummy behavior is a reason/lack of content is what makes that spot scummy.

[Furry]

I thought I provided at least a decent argument in my panic to change a wagon to dana/SJ at the end of D2

[Furry]

Dear people that think over-defensiveness is a scum tell,

Over defensiveness is not a scum tell

Love,

Me

[Furry]

I don't think you're entirely correct. I think that over-defensiveness isn't exclusively a scumtell but is definitely something that you're likely to find coming from players with something to lose. That is, a PR or scum.

You couldn't lynch for over-defensiveness alone, but I think it's absolutely a decent tell assuming the presence of other compelling evidence.

Nope, its the biggest crap tell ever given that its purely objective AND based on natural tendancies. People trying to push a case based on it are more likely to be scum then the people getting pushed. Its that bad of a scumtell. I would vig based on it alone if I had any version of a town read on who its being used on.

[Furry]

I disagree. But then, I disagree with most of what you say so I'm not going to read into it.

Then you are wrong if you disagree. I can argue this for hours on end, but I will spare you. Purely objective tells are poor though.

My point with Chris being over-defensive is that I put him at L-

4

, and then he posted walls of text (albeit over many different double- and triple-postings). I could see that at L-2, and it's certainly merited at L-1, but why did he feel the need to go berserk over L-4?

I refer you to my previous statements about using over-defensive. I also suddenly remember who you replaced

unvote
vote kirbyoshi

Why is getting aggressive at being at L-4 scummy? Why is it even bad for that matter? Its natural. I get aggressive when im close to a lynch, I still play it more or less methodical, but I rarely get lynched in part due to how hard I fight when anyone puts me close. Playing not only to not get lynched, but also to not even get close is playing to your win condition, regardless of alignment.

Also please lets not go back to the CK wagon. We are lynching danakirby.

[Furry]

Also deadline is Friday

Hop to it

[Furry]

Furry, L-4 is nowhere close to a lynch.

So why is what he is doing scummy? As much detail as possible please.

[Furry]

@SC - You should replace 'being sure about a vote' with his voting history. It looks stronger since the assuredness can easily come from any alignment.

You can even start building on what I had yesterday on torque/dana

Torque entire suspicions for the game can be summed up as
-CK for using smilies (he actually voted him seriously pushing him to L-2 for this)
-CK for possibly softclaiming a masonish role

yeah thats it. He never touched on Haylen, he never touched on anyone. The times he did make moves, it was on someone who I not only have down as town, but also for reasons that are up there amungst the worst that I have ever seen someone seriously push a lynch over.

Dana comes in with new suspects but continues the trend of reasoning that really is in the pits. Votes here are
-wicked for being eager
-CK for being suspected by SB
**side note, when pressured by wicked he just says 'im not voting you, doesnt matter'. Add dodging of reasoning to the list of reasons to be lynching him
-cruel and me appear on his list next for no reason I can find whatsoever
-cades for lurking (when he didnt appear in his top three two days earlier)
**when being pressured again for the cades vote he suddenly seems really unsure of himself being there

[Furry]

I like Furry's piece on Torque a bit better,...I think his lack of comment on Haylen is a big thing though.

Cool.

Want to wagon him?

[Furry]

@Furry: ???

I am trying to see if he is into wagoning you. In retrospect it wasnt worded too clearly

[Furry]

Around 30 hours to deadline.

Lets do something

[Furry]

CK, HG and mike need to vote/move their vote in their next post.

Just saying

[Furry]

As soon as possible if not sooner. I have a medium chance of not being able to get in any posts tomorrow and would like to comment on the claim before we lynch/dont lynch

[Furry]

funny how everyone thinks im scum IF player X is scum. Really starting to make me worry about player X (usually helio or SC) alignment. Also the VT claim is unfortunate, I was hoping it was something proveable to be perfectly frank, and a VT claim at this stage really looks like a legitimate claim, since scum has no reason to at least not try and draw out hypothetical PRs.

With everyone saying Helio is scum and I am because he is, it actually is making me second guess my vote a bit. If something pops up before deadline I may be apt to move, but at this point there is no strong reason to.

I do ask that no one hammers untill I get a chance to sleep on this though. I should be able to check in before classes tomorrow, and depending on traffic before deadline.

[Furry]

Also if everyone else is throwing up hypotheticals, I think if helio is scum it loops back to DJ/SJ being scum. I dont understand the not voting your two when your one isnt going to be lynched and your three is. Two is better then three right?

[Furry]

Still worried a bit over this. I dont like how no one is trying to stop the lynch, especially the wagons that only have two people, double especially the ones who are saying they dont like the lynch.

Kirby not vote moving really is making me uncomfortable against this wagon, as I really see no reason for scum to just roll over and die in this siutation.

[Furry]

funny how everyone thinks im scum IF player X is scum.

why? it's hardly surprising. Any good scum player in this particular game won't have commited much in the way of scum tells and I tend to think the scum probably have at least one good player. Thus it's natural for other people's alignment flips to influence yours.

meh

Anyone who plays worthwhile scum trys and make every flip, regardless of alignment, work for them in some way. There are two seemingly eventual lynches that are being heavily tied to me, and its concerning since either of them flipping scum will increase my chance of being lynched due to work people are doing today. The ones doing this (especially the ones not pushing them hard) are setting off some bells for me.

[Furry]

Still worried a bit over this. I dont like how no one is trying to stop the lynch, especially the wagons that only have two people, double especially the ones who are saying they dont like the lynch.

Kirby not vote moving really is making me uncomfortable against this wagon, as I really see no reason for scum to just roll over and die in this siutation.

Switch your vote to helio?

Get helio to claim range before deadline and I will think about it more, right now doing so when its not even guarenteed I will post again after this before deadline doing so starts jepordizing getting a lynch.

[Furry]

Vote deadline extension

had a quiz in psych so I got out early

[Furry]

If you told me I would be doing this at the start of the day I would of been laughing at you, but here is what I am going on

Kirby was at L-1 near deadline, claimed VT, and then didnt go with the self saving move of jumping on helio. When that would of been his best chance of getting a lynch, I really do not understand that motivation if he is scum, or even if he is town for that matter...

unvote
vote Helio

There are zero reasons for scum in that postition to be playing like he did. For playing like he still is for that matter there is really no reasoning. He is most likely to get picked up fast at deadline if he is still the top vote getter so yeah, its just not meshing.

Up for a Helio wagon Kirby? I sure am not going for a SC one

[Furry]

Claim time

[Furry]

or we could lynch kunkstar.

I'd be cool with that too, especially considering his most recent post, but Heilo is the wagon of choice atm.

Or we can just stick with the Helio wagon

[Furry]

That's basically what I just said Furry...-_-

Well you said it and expressed interest in a kunk one, which isnt as good. Last thing we need is wagons splintering at deadline

[Furry]

A better question is do we want to hammer him if he never shows up. Or will we get an extension if he doesnt show up. Deadline is this friday remember.

[Furry]

I doubt we'll get ANOTHER extension. I would like to hear from Heilo before deadline; however, if he continues to not post, I have no other recourse than to call for a hammer, because I don't want him getting away with simply not posting to avoid a lynch.

*nod*

I just dont want to come to that, as I dont think he is lurking but flaking.

[Furry]

Todays friday?

[Furry]

So we are massclaiming today right?

I actually want SC to claim first, with good reason.

[Furry]

Glad to see everyone was so glad to kill a townie when I was doing school work ~

Speaking of townie, I am one of those too.

This is a VT claim right? Meaning you never had an action last night?

Depending on the answer to this, we might want to no lynch then finish the massclaim tomorrow. People please trust me that I know what im doing here. Apparently we have 3 scum (since we arent all dead with 8 alive), so NL is an option.

Lets not vote to lynch yet though

[Furry]

Vote No Lynch

I am very sure kirby and SC are telling the truth about lack of actions, my other target isnt alive. I have role based information to support this. I would like one more shot at getting info. If I get killed, you can take what is revealed from my flip and use it. If I dont, there should be some good stuff to work with tomorrow.

I am not quite ready to auto-lynch DJ for the hammer since the lynch looked inveitable, but if we are going to lynch today I prefer it at first glance.

[Furry]

N1 - Wicked
N2 - kirby
N3 - SC

[Furry]

why did you jump on wicked and kirby's lynch even though you scanned them going nowhere. In this game I figured a long time ago it was more or less all townies for town, and thus odds alone dictate more townies will go nowhere than scum (although a bit flawed admittedly)

let's just all claim and get it out of the way.

If we are no lynching we are not massclaiming. That is what we need to decide on first.

I am not a cop. I am a role that will be useful if I hit scum submitting a kill, I will be noticeable if I hit town PR as well. Just because they did not submit the kill doesnt mean that they arent scum though. Assuming three scum, I need to hit scum and then hit 1/3 odds after that. If I have a scum read (like kirby) im going to vote them. I wasnt as keen on the wicked lynch because he wasnt a super strong read and I knew he went nowhere N1, but targeting someone doesnt completely clear them. It just catches them if they are fakeclaiming.

But I am willing to gamble that a protective role exists, and sending the game to night is better then having a lynch then requiring a protection/blocking role to be successful.

[Furry]

what is your role name.

Also we are mass claiming and then lynching someone. "I am willing to gamble a protective role exists" is not a gamble I am willing to take, and I don't even believe you fully atm.

If we are massclaiming I will be apart of the massclaim. I dont think that we should be doing that today since there is a chance, even if there is no protective role, that we will have the equivilant of a guilty tomorrow. If we mislynch, we will be a spot where one of, at most, two roles will have to make the correct move at night. If we decide we are lynching, then yes, I will claim. Untill then, no.

To be perfectly frank, my role is a part of why I am willing to risk getting NKed to avoid the ensuing paranoia that will come from me claiming.

[Furry]

uhh, your role is obvious, I just want to know if you will slip up as scum tbh.

Yeah it should be figureoutable... so ideal for me.

*glee*

Anyways, if you think you know what my role is (and have it right) then you should see why I want to go to night. It can only get us more information, even if I decide to double back and re-target people. If I get killed, my results are out there, if not, well its more WIFOM, but either another partially cleared or caught shows.

[Furry]

my paranoia is scum could have an extra kill and it'd be game over.

My biggest paranoia has been two scum groups...

I think both of those are unfounded. I dont even know what type of a role you are describing here.

[Furry]

Yeah im still going to say there is no role that gives scum two kills (if there was I also think it would be used early as a safety precaution).

So are we massclaiming or what?

I've never been in a game where the possibility of doing so has been seriously brought up so I'm not really sure of what's going on/the logic behind it.

Simple(ish) explaination

A massclaim occurs primarily in a lylo situation. Town is on the verge of losing, so is going to extract all the information possible. With all the roles and actions out in the open, it allows for more possibilities to pick up a discrepancy of a fakeclaim, or even the chances of multiple roles showing someone as guilty.

The reason im saying massclaim OR no lynch is that if we arent lynching, keeping as many roles as possible hidden from scum is the right move. I already softclaimed (well closer to full but alas) so will likely be drawing a kill (hint hint any doctor in the house), but I may not be the optimal kill, which is why we dont massclaim first.

[Furry]

Well people know how I think. What about you?

[Furry]

I am happy enough either way. I've been completely wrong with all my reads so far this game so I'm not entirely confident in my ability to pull a rabbit out of a hat at this point.

So neutral leaning NL?

That said, we have a bunch of people who need to talk more. Specifically, kirby, mike, kunk, CK.

The middle two at least, ive been happy enough with the others

[Furry]

@mod

- Does no lynch require majority or simply enough to make lynching impossible?

If its the latter we shouldnt hammer untill everyone has posted since there could be caught scum through another role

[Furry]

Why in hell did Furry claim before we even decided we will mass claim?

For good reason. Also I didnt claim, I just narrowed it down to just a few roles I could be

We are so damn close to a mafia majority we better put some deep thought into our next move.

Hence the no lynch

A No Lynch is extremely stupid as it will give the mafia another free kill placing them only so much closer to a majority.

If we mislynch today, we lose without a kill being blocked or doc'ed

If we make it a Mass Claim, what will we use to decide whether someone is scummy or not?

Role results might help clear/incriminate someone

I am so far suspicious of Furry. Claiming so quickly AND favoring a no lynch. What does this say?

That I know what im doing. Seriously, I know what im doing. A no lynch here just gives us that more to go off of tomorrow.

[Furry]

Hmph, I do not like this no lynch idea at all. You play to win, not to buy more time. I don't play for 'if we myslynch." the idea of mafia is to not mislynch.

You play to win the game! (lol beer commercial)

What we are playing for in this specific case is to go into a mylo/lylo situation with as much information as possible. That means we have to get as much information as possible, the best way to get that? Another night.

It gives me more information, it gives any other role more information. What is the downside?

[Furry]

@SC - Is there ABSOLUTELY no way you could of done anything last night (been targeted by inventor, etc)?

Once that gets answered I will full claim

[Furry]

@SC - Is there ABSOLUTELY no way you could of done anything last night (been targeted by inventor, etc)?

Once that gets answered I will full claim

There is 0% chance in all of the darkest depths of hell that I did anything other than nothing last night.

Hrmmph... cant really disprove it or anything. Same with everyone else who claimed VT that I targeted. So much for the "give them enough rope and they will hang themselves with it" idea.

Im a roleblocker, which is why I was somewhat hoping to get killed. Too many people automatically associate it with being scum without thinking about it. Its also another reason I linked to the one game early since it had a town RBer.

As I already said, N1 I went for wicked since I thought he was kinda scummy, in part for OMGUS, but there were some tells there. N2 I went for kirby given the wagon on him just disappearing left a bad taste in my mouth, and he still want looking super-clean. Moved over to SC next on a long shot thing. He had been most wagons, had varied stances on him, it stood to gather the most benifit if I got a good block in. Last night was SC again, given the huge counter on me pushing for NL when it was obvious I had some role based reason for wanting a no lynch (hitting scum ensures scum lynch).

Anyways, ive been breadcrumbing the hell out of this one given how much I could roleplay it. All the "fuzzy handcuffs" thing was me putting my own little flavor spin on being able to roleblock people at nights. I think I declared all of my targets the following morning, in an attempt to see if I could get a softclaim of PR that I could take and know to defend them and not target them again.

[Furry]

Also I thought you were tracker, ironically, Furry.

Belive me I noticed. Thats why I was trying to get the day to end before something happened like a real informational role either putting out a huge crumb or "countering" me.

Well, rather, tracker or roleblocker seems like a bit much. Has everyone claimed?

Well, doc and tracker are obvious +town roles. They cant really screw the town over apart from doc/vig targeting same person, and track/vig targeting same person.

RB/vig are +town, but not as much given that they are swingy. Either of them having a bad read can do a whole lot of damage to the town. I have seen games where town PRs like this destoryed the town.

Lovers are actually anti-town, not to the point you lynch them of course, but to the point where you need more town power to actually counter them.

With two good PRs, two swingy PRs and the lover pair, this may be balanced against unknown scum team of three.

[Furry]

claim time i guess.

tracker.

night 1: faraday (nothing)
night 2: SC (nothing)
night 3: furry (SC)
night 4: kirby (nothing)

what is basically means

N1: SC and kirby did not submit scum kill
N2: SC did not submit scum kill
N3: SC and kirby didnt submit scum kill

[Furry]

^^^That should be N2 N3 N4. N1 we have nothing to go off of.

Results confirm my role, and lower the chances of SC/kirby being scum a bit. There are a few situations where it can confirm them, but it will need to be much further in the game

[Furry]

Without MME's claim, we are looking at 4 vanilla and 2 PR. I don't know, the way cruelty's results supported Furry's results looks fishy to me. Just vibes basically, as scum trying to make themselves look confirmed by helping confirm another role.

If neither of us are lying, what conclusion can you come to?

That three of the remaining four are scum.

Don_johnson and MME seem most likely, as neither your nor Furry's results support that they did not submit a kill.

So... DJ and MME are scum because they havent been roleblocked, and then either me or cruel is scum because one of us is faking our role is your ultimate conclusion here?

I do agree that they are much less likely to be scum, but arent quite cleared unless we get something like two active scum PRs flipped, where in that case they are super unlikely scum (to the extent I would refuse to vote them).

Which of me and cruel are lying though? You already are saying that one of us has to be scum.

[Furry]

So... DJ and MME are scum because they havent been roleblocked, and then either me or cruel is scum because one of us is faking our role is your ultimate conclusion here?

No, the conclusion of DJ and MME is exclusive from you or cruelty lying. That response was to cruelty asking if neither of you were lying what would I think. That's what I would lean towards. Makes sense, since the situation would be two confirmed roles with no guilty results on two of the suspects, of course that would leave the other two as the most viable suspects.

So who is your top pick then?

If either of you are lying, I disbelieve cruelty's. Furry has breadcrumbs throughout and the behavior of yesterday make it a much more seemingly true claim, despite the role itself. Cruelty can just be going along with your claim at this point to protect himself.

I dont know, a killing, protective, informational, blocking and detremental PR set makes some sense if scum have something ok to counter it. Im definantly not planning on voting cruelty just because of his results. While I would like hearing reasoning *hint hint* I dont think he is a good lynch today.

whoa there kitty. not sure if you are misunderstancing kunk or misrepresenting. his post in clearly in response to cruelty's question. it doesn't read as though he is implying either of you or cruelty is scum. the question was "if neither of you are lying"...

Well he is either implying cruel is scum or you and MME are scum. Im trying to figure out which one he is trying to at this point.

[Furry]

This is going to be a very busy week for me, but I will try and get a case + vote down by the weekend. Right now im leaning to one of the people trying to get cruel lynched, especially since none of them are supplying cases, just hating on his role.

[Furry]

I still would prefer to hold off voting.

Going to reread kunk, kirby and SC. My vote is going to one of them, I just dont know who yet. I continue to request a cruelty case from one of them.

[Furry]

That should be kunk DJ and SC, my bad

[Furry]

Why not MME, Furry? Chris has been semi-cleared by you and Cruelty, so objectively, MME is more likely to be scum than SC. Why Chris over MME?

They are the three pushing on cruelty for claiming tracker. If there was a blatant problem with that claim then yes, you can do that, however there is not. The biggest strike is targeting all VTs/claimed roles, but when a majority of the town has no actions, its to be expected.

I would expect at least two of those three are scum. SC is lowest on the list of the three however due to my results and cruels. I am going back and forth on DJ and kunk right now. What I do want is a very concise LoS from each of them, and reasoning as to why we should lynch cruelty (SC is not excluded from this)

[Furry]

lol no

Ironically im just about ready to vote for DJ for even suggesting that

[Furry]

Ironically im just about ready to vote for DJ for even suggesting that

that's the idea. i got the feeling you'd vote for me when i voted cruelty. and i see no reason to excuse cruelty's play at this stage of the game. therefore i suggest the mexican standoff method to avoid a quicklynch and get everyone participating. however, its not your turn yet. kunk can vote after someone votes kirby or me. trust me. participation is going to be key to figuring this out.

If you think you are going to tell me when I can vote, and especially if you think I will listen to it, you have another thing coming.

Just to be crystal clear, you think cruelty is scum just because he claimed tracker?

[Furry]

Just to be crystal clear, you think cruelty is scum just because he claimed tracker?

clear as granite countertops. what thread are you reading? first, i have listed multiple reasons for my thought process. second. part of the rules of the mexican standoff are providing reasons

after

everyone has voted. stop being such a stick in the mud.

Well why are you voting him. This is the best I can find

most likely scenario is 3 scum. in 3 scum you are most likely guaranteed at least one power role. power roles generally can't take action and kill in the same night. which means scum team members have a 66% chance of moving at night. given the fact that cruelty claims to have gotten no movement on SC night 2, why so willing to lynch him on day 3? just seems like it goes against the odds. his opening vote on me was weak sauce with little to no follow-up. i will have to reread yesterday for a more accurate picture.

i doubt both claims are true.

That sounds similar to "I dont believe his role" to me.

We arent doing your plan though. While if this was 'cruel or kunk' my vote would be easy, im still not sure it would be best quite yet. This is lylo, doing what you are saying with FoSs I would be fine with, followed by forcing them all to votes after discussion. Like this is bad.

[Furry]

not believing his claim is not the same as voting him because he claimed tracker. when you match the claim with the in thread play, it doesn't read proper. once everyone has laid down a vote, i will present my reasoning in a more understandable fashion.

So not breadcrumbing then?

what are you worried about? just follow the rules i laid out. would you rather that noone participates in today's discussion?

I would rather treat this like a normal day. We discuss, we lynch, we dont force everyone to vote in some wierd order.

Im thinking DJ/kunk/??[SC/MME]

cruelty I think is town. Kirby im leaning town at this point. DJ and kunk are probably scum, that leaves one of SC and MME for the final one

[Furry]

you are really missing the boat on the cruelty case. i will explain the case further when the standoff is complete.

Explain it now, standoff thing isnt going to work as im already refusing to do it and encourage others to.

why do you think cruelty is town?

Have had a town read on him most of the game, the claim doesnt change anything.

[Furry]

Oh and once kunk posts again im planning on voting. I think ive got this all figured out but want him to confirm it.

[Furry]

As it were, I was waiting for cruelty to show up to see his response to dj's standoff.

Furry, how would you like me to confirm it? How do you have it figured out?

Maybe I should of said 'kunk show up with a suspicion'

Do you plan on voting cruel?

[Furry]

OK... im getting ready to make a move here

Scum team is kunk and DJ to start. Ive fully convinced myself of that much. The push on cruel backs it up. The fact that kunk seems to be waiting for me to decide if im going for DJ or him backs it up. All I really dont know right now is if MME or SC is going to be picking up the last spot.

Im expecting the vote to hinge on whatever of them are town too since cruel should follow me and kirby is already here.

Vote kunk

Im ready to start moving to it. Im going to RB one of DJ/SC/MME tonight. Cruel should track one of them too.

[Furry]

I'm actually a little concerned Furry is a mafia roleblocker. I need to think about this a bit, not gonna blindly follow yet.

Anything you want me to respond to in particular? I think defending how ive played my role is just going to result in WIFOM

[Furry]

you are summarily ignoring my requests for more explanation of your "town" read on cruelty. in fact, you don't even seem to be accepting the possibility that he is gambiting scum.

I dont think he is gambiting scum. I dont need to explain a town read. Burden of proof is on you. Its YOUR job to prove him scum, not MY job to prove him town.

kunk was the suboptimal vote. if you were town you could have voted me(as you have us both marked as scum), but instead you chose the player who already has a vote on them thus bringing us closer to lynch in lylo. meanwhile, we have two prods going out. what's the rush? both you and kirby have failed to explain why you have an issue with the mexican standoff. are you afraid of having to explain yourself?

You are both scum. If cruel gets in here and says he wants you lynched im going to move my vote. Putting kunk at L-2 though has a better chance at driving out third scum then putting a first vote on you.

Here is why what you are proposing is really bad

-It allows people to put out suspicions in a way that can be manipulated. Any order of claiming or voting allows scum to make a much more optimal move, and in a lylo situation this is dangerous. The order is a reason you normally see a 'popcorn' method in claiming instead of 'whoever posts next claims'. If we had a "everyone is voting X or Y already" then its a more feaseable strategy if the order is predetermined in order so the swing vote (concensus town read) votes last. There is way to much that can go wrong with forcing votes though, so we arent going to do it.

So also now im a scum RB who has only been targeting scum reads and targeting claimed VT players?

Where is MME too. I would love to hear him and SC post between who out of me/cruel/kunk is scum. Im still sticking to a DJ/kunk/?? team where ?? is down to one of the two.

Heads up though that I doubt I will have much if any access untill late sunday/midday monday

[Furry]

Along with this, Mike's and Heilo's votes were the worst of the bunch on Kirby. (Yes I do realize I'm there in third, at least in my view. ) Since there won't be anything on CK today, I'll go with a Heilo lynch, not going to vote yet though.

This is one of the things that is making me think that kunk is scum and kirby is town. Right here it almost looks like he is already trying to set people up for after kirby is dead and flips scum. He is on the kirby wagon, yet he is throwing dirt and mike (MME) and helio (town) for voting him. I am not sure what this does to MME, but he is taking a shot at town for being on the same wagon he is.

Besides revealing Heilo's alignment, do any of you feel that this lynch will provide any information besides that, such as other player's alignments or such?

Searching for others to set things up for him

Without MME's claim, we are looking at 4 vanilla and 2 PR. I don't know, the way cruelty's results supported Furry's results looks fishy to me. Just vibes basically, as scum trying to make themselves look confirmed by helping confirm another role.

Another option I considered was both PR's lying and supporting each other. Yet the vice to this would be would the game be balanced with just a vig and a doc?

Opening today with "cruel looks like he is tailing furrys results" and "both might be scum". Immediately justifying the lynch of what appears to be a weaker claim, AND a lynch of a second claim incase people decide to back my lynch instead.

I understand waiting for MME to check in, but there is no reason not to lay down the reasoning to lynch kunk while we wait.

[Furry]

Bottom of the last page is a good start for a kunk case

[Furry]

As wierd as it sounds... this really is a hunt for the last scum.

The game isnt over so its either me/kibry or kunk/DJ. If someone has a strong town read on me, you should be voting kunk. Everyone has been making some posts and the game isnt over, which means that the wagons arent both on town.

Deadline is creaping up on us. We need to act at this point, and the quicker we act the better chance we catch the final scum today since "deadline" cant be used as an excuse

[Furry]

Furry, where is MME cleared?

He isnt

Given that MME/cruel/SC have all been posting and not voting, it means that at most one is scum. If it was two the game would be over since someone would be lynched by now, we have two people at L-2.

The game hasnt ended so its either

kunk/DJ/[MME/cruel/SC]

or

me/you/[MME/cruel/SC]

Im pretty sure that cruel is town, so its MME or SC as the last one.

[Furry]

i'm not feeling the

either/or fallacy

.

The term you are looking for is "false dillema"

In this case though its the truth. Try and come up with a scenario where two of SC/MME/cruel are scum. There are none. Every single one of them ends in town getting lynched and game ends.

[Furry]

ok NOW im confused

[Furry]

What?

Who is scum with him?

[Furry]

Heh... took you guys long enough to end that day after we got wagons started on two different town.

I did enjoy this game quite a bit though, the game light on power so not imbalanced or swingy, proves that simple is good.

Will put up more thoughts after classes today.

[Furry]

Im debating retiring this account with this win. Im something like 6-1 as scum as Furry with the only loss coming from getting killed by a different scum faction and thats going to be a tough record to improve on.

Now the whole breadcrumb thing, that was very very fun to me. It was an attempt to mix breadcrumbing with roleplaying strongly off interactions with jfox/haylen to start, and just touch on it at times from there. I ended up coming on a bit too strong, although those two dropping off early was unexpected as well.

I was planning on claiming JK if there was no doctor flip, however that once forced me back to RB. There were a few situations where I put my crumbs much stronger to JK then RB, and im glad no one took the time to go point those out. People thinking I was tracker scared me actually, since I was not sure what to do about that. I could of tried to run with it, but then all my crumbs wouldnt of fit, and given how the game was going I thought that I could sneak by on the WIFOM of "why would a scum RB claim RB blatantly?"

Good game though, it was very enjoyable to me, even though that last day took WAY to long

[Furry]

Furry: between wicked and cruelty, do either give you the

conviction

that they are more likely scum?

I saw your crumbs that you were considering targeting either wicked or cruelty, and I was trying to get a feel from you which one you targetted. You gave an ambiguous answer that would have allowed you to claim either as a target later on, and that is the point where I started suspecting you were lying and setting up a fake claim.[/quote]

I actually never realized this, if I did I would of answered it in a similar fashion to the rest of my crumbs. If you would of mentioned anything about handcuffs I would of picked it up though.

You got killed because I realized that you would be a near impossible lynch, and that I couldnt read you enough to be sure you wouldnt go after any scum.

So furry, what I'm trying to say is I sure hope you don't require that account, because I would LOVE to have a rematch sometime. Nothing worse than sitting on the sideline knowing who's scum but not in the game to be able to do anything about it.

Im sure we will run into each other again on this or my real self. Im actually fairly sure ive been in a game with you before, but cant remember which one.

[Furry]

I was just trying to cover my bases on the last day. For whatever reason scum was able to start kunk and cruel wagons and couldnt finish them. Everyone had posted so I just had to instill that if I got lynched kirby needed to be lynched next and if DJ got lynched then kunk.

Stressfull game over the last little bit, no clue why MME didnt try and vote kunk or cruel. Even if the day resulted in a scum lynch town was connected too strongly to not get lynched.

[Furry]

Good job in trusting me as a townie.

I thought there were two scum groups and had you as obviously town, so that was a real read. Up untill the vig claim I thought two groups so all my town reads day one were genuine.

Now I need to find a new game to replace into