Mini 865 -- Evil Eyes (Over)

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Hello, Nuwen. Hello, all you jerks who failed to greet me within two minutes of the mod note.

Vote: Toro.

FOS: ekiM, Nuwen, Hoopla.

MrSuave should request a day vigilante role PM from the mod, then kill himself.

SophistricDoctine joke-voted MrSuave to L-3 and got yelled at. Immediately afterward, Hoopla put Suave at L-2 and no one seemed to care. Noted.

Oh, and hello, RECK.

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%$#@, I spelled Sophistic wrong.

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Played in another game with you.

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Hoopla, thoughts on MrSuave?

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Oh, it really is spelled "Sophistric." I should trust my abilities more.

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Okay, then.

Nuwen. Isos. 2, 9, 11.

Hoopla. Isos. 4, 8, 13, 15.

Toro. Iso. 1. Compare. No record of Toro-town doing that. Also, iso. 4: feeble word choice and stating the obvious.

I get where you're coming from

thinking it's coaching, but I'm

just

posting my

PoV

really

.

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I've lost interest in Mike, for now.

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Unvote. Vote: iamausername.

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PBPA's without opinion or expansion are a vapid way of appearing active without committing yourself to any stance.

You don't think FOSes commit to a stance?

How big of a sample size do you typically base meta assumptions on?

It varies. The only meta I did here was Toro (a quick check on self-votes).

1. You have absolutely no analysis with your posts. Scummy.

Well, I broke down on Toro and did a short analysis there. That aside, why is lack of analysis scummy?

3. Then, at the end of your post when you've finally done some sort of explanation for your previous reasoning, you slap your vote on iamausername with no explanation. WTF?

Right. Why is that deserving of "WTF"?

where you just post the numbers, then at least make the numbers hyperlinks. It is going to be painful to go back through the thread and find each of these posts the way that you've labeled them.

Actually, if you can master the arcane art of reading players in isolation, listing iso. posts is infinitely easier on the reader than setting up three or four different hyperlinks for each player.

un impressed vote stays

Sure, about as unimpressive as your intermittent lurking and drab one-liners.

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Since Nuwen squandered her chance to post a reaction I could twist into lynch material, I guess I'll lay out my beef with her right now.

I get a sour gut read off of iso. 2. I realize townies do this at times, but joking about alignment at your own expense is lame, and as far as I'm concerned it's painfully gratuitous as far as town strategy, methodology, win condition goes. Furthermore, it's a deliberate injection of WIFOM into the game at a stage when you

really

have no reason to do so.

Isos. 9 and 11:

1. From a scum perspective, Iam's vote on Geek would make little sense - he placed it early, without case material to stand on. The intent obviously comes from a non-scum faction pressuring out more information, prioritizing scum hunting over personal appearance.

That's a paper-thin reason for IAUN. I'm taking heat for acting similarly.

2.

Geek's posts fish for any information, any material, regardless of whether it's alignment indicative.

Even after I declined to answer his post 72, he continued to push the age issue.

Geek commits to a stance and says

Nuwen is scummy for fishing out information that isn't indicative of alignment

(here's were Geek becomes scummy - not because he believes I'm scummy, but because he's opportunistically using an alignment neutral action as fuel for a case)

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It may not be deserving of a WTF, but it is definitely deserving of questioning.

I clearly asked the former and not the latter. I'm intrigued that players are homing in on my unreasoned vote switch when they didn't home in on, for example, IAUN's.

You know what's even better? Quoting the offending posts and pointing out what you find suspicious. It certainly makes things a lot easier for me to read.

Patience. It's a process, not an event. I get double the reactions this way, at a bare minimum.

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Mass FOSes are for pussies and scum. In moderation, a FOS can serve as a supplement to a vote elsewhere in order to spread out pressure. Symbol effectively put more than a quarter of the game on his "suspicious" list, but has made no move to explain himself. It's an easy way to set himself up to join whatever wagon becomes popular ("I found x scummy early on too, see!").

You don't think a quarter or so of the game is scum? You don't value temporary omission of reasons in order to garner twice the reaction from the FOS targets (once before the reasons are laid out, and then again afterward)?

He's done a remarkable job at being active while contributing nothing tangible.

I've been here for a few hours and posted more than enough. "Remaining active" is nonsense.

I also have a problem with a single game meta. A very large sample size is necessary to determine whether a behavior is consistent with a single alignment.

1. Assuming this is an error on my part, why does it make me scummy?
2. In Toro's three games as town, he has never self-voted during RVS. In his two games as scum, he has self-voted once during RVS. The sample size is small, but I think it says something. Of course I'm not committed to driving Toro into the ground. It's page 8. Scum tells are scarce.

Anyone using meta tells with such a limited sample size is either dumb or scum.

Why did you choose scum instead of dumb? The two options are equally plausible, yet for someone who demands immediate presentation of logic behind decisions made while scum-hunting, you gave no logical support to your inclination toward one.

Ho-hum. Made it half a page before sliding back into regular style. There goes the whole point of creating an alt.

You're going to have to do a little more than bold my posts to explain your problem. Is there something I should clarify?

I thought it was relatively clear, but I may have missed something during my read-through. In the first quote you accuse Geek of egregious fishing, but then you take his argument that you're fishing egregiously and use it against him.

Again, I might've missed something here as the contradiction seems blindingly obvious.

I want everyone that isn't Geek to weigh in on Symbol's foray into the game. I want Toro and Hoopla to speak first, preferably.

Why not Geek?

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I'd also like to hear why Symbol is suspicious of Hoopla and what changed between the time he FOS'd Mike and lost interest in him.

I'm not outlining Hoopla (who is 90% instinct anyway as opposed to your 75%) until she responds to the opening scuffle.

As for Mike, I did a reread and didn't find him as shady as I did the first time.

Now are you going to try to warp change in opinion into a scum tell (which would unfortunately damn this site's entire population)?

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You're going to explain your suspicions (Hoopla, original read on Mike) or you're going to be lynched. There will be no precedent set in this game that permits players to dance in and out of suspect trains without being held accountable.

I will wait for Hoopla to reply, then post my suspicion on her. After that you can lynch me; I don't mind. My original read on Mike was vaguely lurker scum, but that instantly changed to null upon reread.

I said that our issues with each other are very similar, separated only by his step towards a vote first.

I don't follow. What makes his willingness to drop a vote like that scummy?

The mass FOS parses as an action more likely to be taken by scum, who need to gain early footholds in wagons and avoid obvious switches.

That's a bull tell. A vote plus an FOS on four players is not a scummy opening action taken by a replacement.

Yecch. I may as well switch over to my main account as my natural style clearly can't live up to the objective of this self-experiment. Then I'll lose the last stitches of incentive not to post 384 times in one 62-page game with double the grumpiness and double the vacillation about whether or not to believe odd night 0 role claims (oh, God help me; did I just say that?), and all hell will ensue.

Geek's looked fairly pro-town throughout. *shrug* I'm amused, though, that you're cutting him so much slack and frowning on the possibility of a scum team because of a little page 8 distancing.

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An unexplained vote 8 pages in does not have the same town implications to me

Yet plenty of town players regularly rely on this. And it works damn well, when they do it right.

Symbolic, do you think you found them all in your first post?

How do you expect me to answer that. Do I suspect some/most of my page 8 reads are wrong? Of course. But am I sure that judging by the information we have, those four, individually, are the most likely to be scum? Yes.

Should I portray myself as unsure so that I don't get night-killed because my reads really are spot on?

. . .

I really dislike single-sentence responses in games; they skew focus and make replying a royal pain.

Oh, we're going to be friends, then.

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After this post, I don't think Symbol and Greek are likely to be scum together. I want to hear Geek's reads elsewhere to see whether or not they're more town-motivated than his earlier posts.

Huh. I took it as you worrying that he might actually elevate his read on me, since I seem to agree with him on your alignment.

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Prepare for headaches, my dear RECK.

Go fuck yourself,

crypto

RECK, I'm not

confirmed

telling you anything.

I thought the night 0 tip would do the trick. Anyway, there's no longer any reason for me to worry about my meta as I've reverted to its trappings.

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Me too.

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Hey, you answered my follow-up Suave meta question in advance. Awesome.

Beefs:

Why aren't you helping?

I'm not sure what to make of this. Suave made a legitimate point. The first read-through, Hoopla's response here didn't bother me; the second time, I wondered why the heck she'd answer so sharply.

Why are you so keen to claim?

Fishing. Hoopla didn't have to say this in order to grasp Suave's understanding of role claims. She could have gone about it in a much more orthodox manner.

This

looks much more geared toward gauging the strength of Suave's role.

No, I am not scum. Are you scum? Please answer my question in exactly two words.

I don't remember what my problem was here. I think I wrote it down as an example of Hoopla's radical change in style: more chatty, less conventionally pro-town, if pro-town at all.

I don't think so, but claiming so early is not a situation we need. It was more a question to probe MrSuave's understanding of the claiming process. Recently (ongoing game) a player claimed after a two-vote wagon at the start of day 3. It was not a necessary claim.

This would be going along with iso. 8—Hoopla's question back then was, in my eyes, not at all constructed to this end.

Hoopla's post so far clearly focus on Suave, but I get the impression that she doesn't actually have him down as mafia, however anti-town or scummy she thinks he's acting. Which is weird. As for factoring in the out-of-left-field posting style, I would think scum are more inclined not to get experimental, which weakens my suspicion of her, but it's always dicey to read into those aspects. Meh.

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I don't like Tubby's play either, but it sounds like he always does this. I can't be bothered to look into it at the moment.

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Oh, I agree with the second half of that sentence, too.

Unvote. Vote: Hoopla.

I'm skeptical of a MrSuave wagon.

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Preview edit: Macavity, for free pizza you should reply to the point IAUN made after the third quote in his post.

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Beefs.

I didn't/don't like Iamausername's isos. 2 and 3. Basically, his argument was that Geek was scummy (or worthy of a vote, or whatever) for implicating Nuwen without voting for her in Geek's iso. 4. But Geek's post is clearly lacking in such naughtiness. It's a straight-up disagreement with Nuwen's viewpoint on an issue that doesn't indicate alignment. Even if Geek is scum, and even if he was attempting to paint her scummy without throwing his own name behind the argument, coming to such conclusions based on his post is really a stretch. (He does later crack down on Nuwen, but that's beside the point.)

So IAUN's isos. 2 and 3 look like a premature attack on Geek grounded in misconstruction of Geek's iso. 4. Also, I don't know why IAUN-town would leap into the fray so quickly. Letting the Geek-Nuwen debate unfold and

then

taking sides would have been the optimal scum-hunting route, in my eyes. Butting in early and attacking Geek implies non-scum-hunting motives on IAUN's part.

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I like IAUN's last post a lot, though. (Hmm, I wonder why . . . )

I mean, I can see that town might disagree with a town read on Reckoner, I can see that town might ask me to explain my read, but taking it to the extent of going point by point through every one of Reckoner's posts to try to prove that I cannot possibly have the read that I say I have, I am struggling to see how that is anything but a scum reaction.

This is good posting. Note also that Geek's knee jerk came right after you criticized his interaction with Nuwen ("geek is clearly insinuating that Nuwen's questioning Suave's age is scummy, but refuses to actually say so outright, even when directly asked to").

Why no comment on Reckoner doing the same thing?

I was under the impression RECK was making a point against someone (Suave?). Looking back, though, I can't find anything. But I believe it's less likely scum would do it in the thick of things, like RECK—when paranoid townies start reading into anything and everything—than at the beginning of the game, like Nuwen.

Anyway, I have a vague town read on RECK, so at this point I'm not very interested in him either way. I'd rather cling to confirmation bias.

because you couldn't actually come up with a reasonable scum motive for drawing negative attention to oneself

Plus one.

True dat. Nuwen's explained why she didn't, and geek apparently assumed I was still random voting, but Macavity needs to explain himself.

He'll just give the same reason as Nuwen.

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Meant to ask this yesterday:

Symbolic, do you think you found them all in your first post?

Why do you ask, Nuwen?

Macavity, two more questions for you, when you get back. What is your read on Hoopla? And who's your top suspect (after Suave)?

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EBWOP:

I've got my eye on both ekiM and JVW, both of whom I've seen as lurker scum recently, and neither of their contributions thus far makes me think

they're

breaking that mold.

Yes, that was critical.

What about Tubby? I'd say he goes in the same box as Mike and Julien.

I was going to follow up with a question about Toro; good to see you haven't abandoned interest in him.

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Good grief.

Unvote. Vote: geekalicious.

Nuwen better have been distancing, or I have some serious reanalysis on my plate.

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RECK, wagon Geek.

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Fuck it, then.

Since Nuwen squandered her chance to post a reaction I could twist into lynch material, I guess I'll lay out my beef with her right now.

I don't like the tone I get from this. You were deliberately seeking material you could "twist"?

Do you not understand the concept of facetious self-deprecation? Also, could you have possibly concocted/worded a gut feeling in a more contrived way?

Not seeing exactly how I freaked out about the situation. I deliberately posted what xRECKONERx had done up until that point in the game to see if you could point to something concrete that had given you a town feel on him rather than just a general vibe.

What on earth is wrong with intuitive town reads? Why do you drag on conversation about a town player? You're putting RECK in the limelight; you're hanging a sign over his head that says, "Look, scum, night kill goes here!"

Also, note that here you explain your pinging xRECKONERx for strongest town vibe because of gut feeling. In your most recent post, however, you admit that you did so "entirely" to see how others would react (while appending a vague explanation about what you mean by "strongest"), thus contradicting yourself.

You think townies never make gambits, let alone hilariously miniature ones like this? Regardless, IAUN could still have had a gut read and used it to gauge reactions. his explanations don't necessarily contradict each other.

You know what?

unvote

Vote: iamausername

Because he contradicted himself about a very early instinctual town read, and because he made a legitimate criticism of your RECK PBPA? Please. You're saying that you didn't freak out about RECK, not that the logic IAUN used after he made that judgment was scummy. This vote is a purely defensive measure.

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Scummy. See 224. Bandwagons on scummy players are good.

(I can be succinct, too.)

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I find mafia to be more about philosophy than posting walls of text. Symbol, is your wordy style an attempt to distract the town and encourage them not to read?

Is that a trick question?

No, really. You prompted me to look back through the thread, and it looks like my posts are remarkably short compared to my usual style. None of them come even close to wall-of-text status. I think it's more my bad habit of posting too frequently.

Geekalicious raging is bad news for his alignment. Of his three completed games (plus one unfinished where he's dead), he's been scum only once, in Newbie 840. That game had only sixteen pages and Geek coasted to victory:

41 total posts
4 post-game
15 in LyLo (only two other players)

That leaves only 22 posts in the 13 pages before LyLo. By the looks of it, little to no suspicion fell on him until LyLo, and even then the attacks' supporting arguments weren't too strong ("It's just a strong feeling I have in me about you," "He has also been lurking a lot," "He's playing it too safe," "Geek has never been voting throughout this entire game"), and the attacker's vaguely juvenile writing style probably stripped him of a lot of credibility.

So, yeah, using activity, experience, replacing out, etc., to as the thrust of a case is extremely lame, but it's more fuel to the fire, and while I had a slight pro-town read on Geek, his most recent post makes me gag. Plus he's still in another game. (Granted, it's Twitter Mafia.)

I hate replacements anyway. They tend to wreck my view of the player slot. But I know that goes against the popular opinion that information beats stubborn reads, so woe is me. Also, I don't know why this post has not been trimmed and submitted yet.

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God

fath

mother Nuwen is letting my attacks on her blow over. Yuck.

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And I thought I was liable to spam the thread. Yikes.

Post 223 – Why did you ask for Reck in particular,

Symbol

?

Because I know he's always game for a wagon.

That scumlist is meaningless after a page and a half of disjointed questions, plus "notes" and "not likes."

Er, aren't questions, notes, and dislikes the crux of scum hunting? I'm not saying I like Zazie's style, but . . . I don't see the logic in lynching Zaz (at this point).

I don't need the award of 'Best playstyle to deal with'.

No, you don't, but if people with annoying styles are generally ignored, making them ineffective as townies.

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In other news, scum read on Nuwen is solidifying with the Zazie vote (which she even admits to with the "In fact..." pretext), especially considering she openly concedes to having never policy-lynched. Whoa. If you're going to distract from the pro-town Geek wagon, at least try to disguise it.

Tubby looks scummy as well. Sort of irritating that his meta bails him out of suspicion.

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Bold is "Hey Reck, calm down with the rolefishing argument, because it doesn't read that way."

Or it's "My opinion is that it isn't fishing, period."

Italics is "Hey Suave, come up with a fakeclaim immediately." Of course, I don't know if they're intended that way, but it's not hard to read them with that intention.

Why would he need to tell Suave? Suave's brain isn't going to implode if people tell him to claim.

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*whistles innocently*

And there you have it.

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MacavityLock, list of suspects or die. Don't care about the reasons, just a town-scum scale.

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I don't do town-scum scales. I think they're bad for business.

Fair enough.

Please give me a good reason for calling me out like this.

Hmm. Interesting that you'd take issue with me randomly fishing for your opinions.

I think you've been focusing on Suave, and other than that you haven't been scum-hunting so much as picking and choosing minor points to argue about, like Toro's coaching post. Not enough conviction for my liking, so I was wondering what was going on behind the scenes.

I'm surprised Mike isn't on that list, seeing as you said had your eye on him before.

Hmm.

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Julien, catchup posts are worthless if you don't actually make any points with them.

hi mike i am not really lurking as much as i am being over cautious.

Wow.

Unvote. Vote: tubby216.

I like this better than a Geek wagon at this point in time. We might as well let Geek's replacement show up, seeing as the game's slogging along anyway.

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I wasn't randomly fishing, Mac, but that's what I assumed it may have looked like, hence my curiosity at your response. The death threat was a joke.

(Irrelevantly, your reply to my followup satisfied me.)

I did a really quick meta of Tubby. I just skimmed a few games (ongoing and some towns, no mafias to be honest), but he looks like he gives even less reasons here than usual. *wonders if there's a jester in the setup*

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I normally hate linking to the wiki, but this is just retarded. Too Townie. One second I'm scummy as hell with my unexplained attacks, the next I'm trying too hard to be townie?

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I don't remember ever being very disagreeable in this game, and as far as I remember SophisticDoctrine was not widely suspected. I didn't post crap; it was quite obvious what I was trying to do and if a mafioso wants to blend in he typically won't go through the motions I did when he could immediately post some sort of case.

And no, there's barely a difference, if any at all, between "too townie" and "trying too hard to look town." They both stem from your basic perception that my approach is pro-town in theory.

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FFS, Nuwen, there's no jester. Calm the hell down.

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Are you serious, Nuwen? The point was that Tubby is scummy as hell, but that it made no sense he'd consciously play so recklessly as either alignment. Stop leaping on whatever snippets you don't like. Scum-hunt. Your vacillation is yecch.

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for each one of his posts i see them as scum motivated, however at first glance they(his posts) appear townish, upon further review they are scummy

Putting myself in the limelight is not a smart move as scum unless I'm setting up for my own bus. Which is stupid and defeatist.

Please point out scum motivations for "each one of [my] posts."

Seeing random lynch proposed by a long-time player makes me sad. If you are resorting to random . . . why don't you at least use those dicey day 1 reads, then? And why aren't you at least commenting on other players, even if you aren't willing to lead/resist a lynch on one of them?

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It just seems pointless when you can scum-hunt, however dubious day 1 reads are.

Nuwen is scummy.

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I'm conflicted on that topic... D1 info is important, but honestly, I don't remember an endgame scenario where the D1 information played a HUGE role in determining the outcome of the game. I think I'd be okay with a random lynch. The other problem with a random lynch is that we have a chance of hitting a town PR... or outing one... but I guess that's a risk you take?

On D1 in Mini 842 you set up for a D2 claim. You got lynched in LYLO for the inconsistency in your claim and later reports.

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Nuwen, come on! You just committed the same logical fallacy as Tubby. Why the hell are you giving a major suspect a free pass? On the flip side of your argument, I could say that he and his scum buddies could have agreed that he'd be a bus target, and that he's coasting in the meantime.

Also, not a huge fan of how RECK was bouncing around with regard to the random lynch proposition. Plus he ignored post 375.

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Splicing anti-town behavior from scummy behavior is not a fallacy. There's a difference between acting against the town's best interests and directly acting on scum's best interests.

Um, I think what Tubby is doing could very well be in scum's best interests.

I got lynched mostly because it was a bullshit role to start out with. Also, I claimed on D2, not D1. Irrelevant argument/10.

If you'd claimed properly you wouldn't have been hanged. We (MME and I, at least, but I think most other players too toward the end of D3) believed your role partly because of its sheer outrageousness. If . . . a certain player . . . wasn't so damn dense to the point where I swear he was deliberately trolling the game, scum would have been lynched in LYLO and possibly the next day as well. But instead he focused on your claim.

*

My point is that you outed info regarding your role on D1, that info being that you were going to claim the next day—and the consequent implication was that you had a power role. So, yeah, I'd say D1 had an informational effect on the endgame, which would likely have been muted were a random lynch enforced.

Anyway. Fair enough. I don't feel like pursuing this debate.

*

If we weren't in the middle of a game I swear I'd rant about that aspect for text wall after text wall.

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Nuwen, why are you policy-voting for Zazie's replacement (who, upon preview edit, seems to have posted)?

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Unvote. Vote: Nuwen.

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I feel like she's holding an "I am smart scum!" sign over her head every post she makes. She simply looks scummy as all hell to me. I could probably make some sort of a case, but at the moment I don't have the motivation. It's largely intuition. There are some instances that strike me as very shady, but I don't know if I can coherently explain them. And they certainly not damning on a logical level.

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As I said earlier, "gut" doesn't fly past a few pages into the game. Have you read Shanba's scumhunting thread?.

Wait, I thought I was that Crypto guy who posted several times in it. Shoot.

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Torqez, I was about to address how Nuwen has done hardly anything useful on the scum-hunting front.

I'm more likely to believe that you're semi-consciously reacting to tells

Why do you care? Why should I care that you care? You have no reason to be so eager to defend yourself, other than to use it against me. If I find the general language of your posts scummy, then I find the general language of your posts scummy.

Speaking of Adel's posts—bear in mind that I'm already thinking of you as scum—I wouldn't be surprised if you're deliberately using this, as quoted by Adel, to weaken my read:

"Several studies show that explaining yourself wrecks your intuition. If you see a person’s face, then must identify that person later in a lineup, you will do much better if you do NOT have to explain the face in detail beforehand. Your explanation is imperfect because the bandwidth of words is so narrow, yet your knowledge of the face is nuanced. The story you create about the face overwrites your actual knowledge and makes you perform worse in the lineup test. Other studies show that requring an explanation of thought process makes test subjects less able to come up with creative solutions for problems."
-- David Sirlin

Fuck it, though; I'll humor you. This is the worst case I've ever made. Hope it's worth your trouble, because it only superficially resembles how I actually formulated my read on you.

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Tweaked and copy-pasted notes (sort of):

Outside Geek, Nuwen seems not to have been scum-hunting, at least not with much/any focus. (Some of this should be attributed to the game's generally lurking-activity-lurking-lurking-activity-lurking-lurking-lurking rhythm. But still.)

Jumping on my opening posts ticked me way the hell off. I have a hard time believing someone with her experience is so suspicious of unconvential play, especially in opening posts, which usually don't contain squat for content. Her comment (iso. 22) about how my style was "a vapid way of appearing active without committing yourself to any stance" struck me as violently biased. Actively lurking a few hours after I'd replaced into the game? I'd already produced more output than most replacements do at that point.

So then when I fire back at her and other players instead of cutting straight to my reasons, she votes for me, again unleashing the bullshit active lurking argument (iso. 23). Also, FOSing a few players simultaneously the way I did is simply not scummy, and to construe it as such the way she did is a load of crap.

And then in iso. 26 there's the "You're going to explain . . . or you're going to be lynched," which, if she was being serious, is puke. Not inherently scummy, but we'll get back here later.

In iso. 27 she says she thinks Geek and I can't be scum together. Her reference is a single post of his in which he cheerleads the lack-of-reasoning-is-scummy cause. But Geek's criticisms are extremely noncommittal as far as long-term debate, so I'm at a loss as to how Nuwen didn't take busing into account as a possibility.

Now comes the span where she doesn't do much scum hunting, as I mentioned at the start of this post. She policy-votes Zazie, even admitting that she never has policy-voted, and sits on it complacently instead of doing her job (which, before someone tries to say something clever, is not lynching Zazie).

Then in iso. 36 she takes the time to compile a huge list of Zazie's posts. Not sure what the point of this is.

Now, returning to how she voted for me because I didn't give reasons. I

really

don't like how, comparatively, she completely lets Tubby off the hook after half-hearted posts 39 and 41. Defending him in post 44 is makes me itch. If I'd continued playing the way I was, I

highly

doubt Nuwen wouldn't have said that about me; she would've tunneled on me.

I don't like how (and this is obviously open to interpretation) Nuwen buddies up to replacements. But whatever.

And going back to the lack of scum hunting, she has only seriously pursued Geek and me. And defended Tubby and Suave, briefly. What about the other seven player slots?

Make the case. No more stupid feeling cases in this thread, please. Doesn't anyone else realize that accepting gut reads sets a precedent that allows scum to push cases on nothing? "Something just felt off, let's lynch him!"

"No more"? "Stupid"? "Feeling" (refer to your own read on Tubby)? "Sets a precedent"? Give it a rest. I've never seen someone get lynched on day 1 based purely on suspicion. One vote is not a call for a rapid, mindless wagon on you. Stop misrepresenting.

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Mind if you do some scum hunting of your own instead of unsubtly teasing us, Suave?

[Symbol]

I don't know if it was to distract us from any particular direction we were heading so much as it was to distract us from the fact that Hoopla is active lurking like a pro.

No, that's Nuwen. Hoopla is playing class clown.

[Symbol]

Unvote. Vote: Hoopla.

Hoopla/Nuwen/Tubby is the play.

[Symbol]

No, foo', they're individually scummy. Nuwen for reasons stated, Hoopla for actively lurking (really, she is; she just isn't as subtle as Nuwen), and Tubby for abusing our perception of him.

I'm sorry. That's really all I've got . . . I feel like there's been a noticeable lack of scum hunting / serious discussion in the three games I'm in right now compared to the first three or four I played. There's not much more for me to comment on.

[Symbol]

@Symbol: So, you're calling for a chain lynch on what you see as the entire scumteam despite not having a shred of evidence to believe they're connected? Seriously?

@EriktheRed: So, you're so incapable of reading basic English despite not having a shred of trouble writing it yourself? Seriously?

I didn't call for a chain lynch and I didn't announce a scum team.

FOS: EriktheRed.

Are you really that awful at reading comprehension? I can't fathom how the flying fuck you got that out of my post.

[Symbol]

"Or" is far and away the most common meaning of a slash.

[Symbol]

Further knowledge of basic English, written or oral, reveals that "is" comes after singulars, not plurals, so again, interpreting that the way you did is shitty.

[Symbol]

Drop it as a strike against me? Gosh, I'm ever so grateful for your mercy, sire.

[Symbol]

Huh.

I'm perfectly happy voting for Suave since he's lurking and has made no pro-town contribution. Perfectly valid reasons to vote somebody - and the clincher is that the last time he played like this, he was scum. So yeah, I'm happy with my vote.

Does this ring scummy to anyone else?

[Symbol]

Most definitely - I've bolded the part that most sets off the alarms. He's not thinking about whether Suave is actually scum, he's thinking about whether he can get away with saying that Suave is scum.

Yeah, you pretty much hit on it. I thought it looked bad in general (intuitively), but the way he justified his attack stuck out. I've been clinging to a town read on him because his wall of text about Nuwen v. Geek struck me as a townie thing to do, but . . .

[Symbol]

I support a JVW wagon, at the very least.

Unvote. Vote: julienvonwolfe.

He's been actively lurking 90% of the game and his lazy obsession with a Suave lynch is crap (as is everyone else's).

[Symbol]

RECK, I know you are online. Vote for JVW.

[Symbol]

Arriving conveniently after the hassle with you has blown over, as I expected.

[Symbol]

I took Suave's willingness to claim as a (newb) town tell.

[Symbol]

Suave, claiming for no reason is absolutely stupid. While I agree with Symbol and find it a towntell, you're just trying to claim for the sake of claiming now, which is kind of making me paranoid about being wrong about you.

Wow. I don't even know where to start with this. The whole idea behind a claim is that we don't lynch a vital power role. Shutting Suave up is a terrible idea if he is in fact town and if he is in fact a power role.

[Symbol]

Right, and I agree, but given that most people here are showing total disinterest in the game, I doubt the wagon is going to recede. If Suave gets pushed to L-1, he should claim.

Mod: Isn't xRECKONERx voting for Julienvonwolfe?

[Symbol]

Okay, so we're in violent agreement. But I do want to clarify that, even if he isn't at L-1, if he's the majority lynch with a stagnant vote count as time is winding down he should still claim.

[Symbol]

Unvote.

Rereading some isos, especially Suave's.

In the meantime: Erik, do you think Geekalicious was scummy? If you do, to what degree, and why? If you don't do you think he's been misconstrued?

[Symbol]

EriktheRed

, answer my question.

[Symbol]

Vote: Torqez.

I like him and RECK as scum; I don't feel like outing my other scum reads, though, because I have something like six total, so it'd be accomplishing nothing while outing my town reads by omission.

More on Torq later.

[Symbol]

Naaah I'm not scum.

I'm offended, Symbol. Did Less Flavor Than English Food Not Teach You Anything?

Your posts had substance. Here they do not.

[Symbol]

Also, RECK, you've been going with the flow too much. I know you like day 1 bandwagons (who doesn't?) but this is just zombie-like. You vacillated over Hoopla's random lynch plan, taking sides with whichever argument was better. Your pressure on Tubby and Suave has been lackluster, and going for the illogical lurker and the village idiot don't cut it when I know you can produce much better cases. Lastly, voiced

zero

suspicion of JVW before you voted for him and labeled your number three lynch choice was preceded when his bandwagon got hot.

All in all, disconcerting play. You've been peeing yourself over Tubby's absurdity, but what you've been doing isn't much different, if different at all.

Oh yeah, and I also find all your dialogues with Tubby insanely fishy bordering on eerie, but that's his fault as much as yours.

Torqez I'm mostly suspicious of because (a) Toro's self-vote sucked, (b) some of Zazie's points sucked (nothing to do with the posting style), (c) Torqez never posted any analysis, not even on top suspect Hoopla, (d) Torqez pulled a bit of an OMGUS (plus he piggybacked) by voting for Nuwen, and (e) Torqez wagoned it up on JVW.

Anyway, now I think RECK is safer than Torq, though a Torq lynch might squeeze out a little more info about other players.

[Symbol]

Yeah, I thought that felt anticlimactic but I couldn't put my finger on it.

Unvote. Vote: xRECKNONERx.

Go figure.

[Symbol]

I never thought I'd say this, but Suave is a pretty good lynch information-wise.

Votes should be shifting toward him or RECK.

[Symbol]

Fucking yes.

Unvote. Vote: MrSuave.

Suave, you are at L-1. Feel free to claim or whatever.

No one is to hammer yet.

Tubby, do you think Suave is scum or is your vote policy/boredom?

[Symbol]

If I am alive day 2 I will shove dynamite up your ass.

Come on, RECK. Why the lameness this game? Can you just claim scum?

[Symbol]

Mod: I think MacavityLock announced V/LA earlier in the thread. I could be mistaken.

Wow. That was fortunate, actually. Much better than cop or doc, which can produce counterclaim headaches.

Unvote.

Obviously, everybody needs to get off Suave

now

. We're insanely short on time.

@Reck

, first of all, I'm sick if typing out your name in caps. I always read it like I'm damn shouting. Also, your love/hate jokes are grating on my gut instinct, so for your own sake I recommend you cease fire. (Both smileys apply.)

Symbol, I love you. I'm not playing entirely 100% because this game has thoroughly disinterested me so far, and I think I'll be more inclined to take it seriously after D1 is over.

Well, it's sort of disappointing to me too (and I mean the relative lack of player-generated content, not the mod work; the mod's doing a bang-up job), but even then I'm producing a decent amount of substance. I know I'm a posting machine, but even taking that into account you seem, er, minimalist (and by "minimalist" I don't mean succinct ).

So get psyched because I have the day off I'm impatient for non-school-assigned reading material.

Like I'm ALMOST taking it seriously now. While I have you, Symbol, what are your thoughts on JVW's 551? How about the point she makes at the end about Erik's bias towards Suave's case versus JVW's case?

(Now that you mention it, I'd like to hear your own answer to that question.) That post deserves a reread it because I skimmed so much of it, but it put me in severe doubt about the case for JVW. Looked like a lot of work for a mafioso on his way to the noose. I'm inclined very slightly to think that JVW is town and that he was getting his ass in gear partly out of self-preservation but also partly because he wanted to get his damn case out if he was about to be lynched. But I do think it's entirely possible that the post was JVW's last survivalist gasp, and I'm curious to know what it means for Hoopla, Erik, Suave, and others if it turns out JVW is scum.

Again, I'd need to do a reread, but the post's style rings pro-town. JVW admits to some specific snags in his case, and stream of consciousness snippets like "However, I've WIFOMed myself quite substantially" usually strike me as a town tell. I've done it a lot myself and I think I've seen many other townies do it too.

JVW's protest about Erik's "bias" is fair from on a strictly logical level, but Erik had a rookie-town read on Suave from the outset, so I can understand where Erik would be coming from when me makes that discrimination. From Erik's point of view, Suave's inexperience excuses him from a really thorough case; the same can't be said of JVW. It also seems reasonable that Erik is more suspicious of JVW because of Erik reads JVW as having defended Hoopla in the past, and Erik latched onto Hoop as a major suspect way the hell back. (I could be wrong about this last bit because I'm a little hazy on whether Erik made the connection between JVW and Hoop before or after he started criticizing JVW's attacks on Suave.)

---

Ugh, that was a bitch to write, and it wasn't even that much. Fail thought organization is fail.

FOS Reck

for trying to force out a counterclaim, but then again I might've done the same without realizing IAUN's point.

Erik, I'm pretty sure I didn't say Suave was pro-town. I thought he was hard to read and more likely to be town than scum due to his claim anxiety, but he obviously likes to play the newbie/VI card so I wasn't terribly sure. I voted because I was rereading Nuwen's iso. and two or three of her posts made me think that (a) Nuwen and Suave were scum buddies, (b) Nuwen was expecting Suave to be lynched, and (c) was planning to use it to incriminate Mike and/or Reck and/or MacavityLock. I saved a draft of my post to my comp; I can post it if you want, but if Suave is to be believed then you can throw that theory out the window.

[Symbol]

Welcome to the loony bin, Don_Johnson.

[Symbol]

Vote: Torqez.

Not sure if this will stick or not. Too many players here are next to impossible to get reads on.

[Symbol]

Okay, vote sticks barring a major turn of events. Oh, hell yes.

Everybody, please vote for Torqez. If he flips scum, I'll bet my pants EkiM is also scum.

If Suave is vigged for fake-claiming, unlikely as it may be to me, I think you'd be onto something.

What do you mean, "onto something"?

[Symbol]

Damn it.

In other games Mike has expressed a pretty adamant belief that self-votes during RVS are scummy. Toro self-voted here and Mike didn't even take note (plus he was short on content in general). Add to that how scummy I already thought some of Toro's posts were, and it made sense. Torqez bandwagons like hell and posts zero cases of his own, but the tone of his posts just seem so damn town.

Unvote. Vote: julienvonwolfe.

Not convinced JVW's scum, but a no-lynch is not going to cut it, and Suave is not an option.

[Symbol]

Erik, we don't even know if there is another vigilante. If Suave survives, we still won't know if he's lying or telling the truth. He should kill someone tonight and pray his choice doesn't coincide with the mafia's kill choice and/or the doc's protection choice (ideally by choosing a member of the mafia). Two dead bodies confirm that we do in fact have a mafia and either a vig or a serial killer.

[Symbol]

EBWOP:
"Another vigilante" should read "any vigilante."

[Symbol]

Like I said, I did this yesterday so it's no longer my favored theory as I think Suave is telling the truth.

[hr]50/[hr]
Latest dime-a-dozen scum team theory says Nuwen and MrSuave are buddies.

(Quotes and vote counts are arranged in chronological order.)

tubby216 (2) -- Symbol, ErictheRed
Hoopla (1) -- MrSuave

MrSuave

(3) -- julienvonwolfe, MacavityLock,

ekiM

ErictheRed (2) -- iamausername,

xRECKONERx

Symbol (1) -- tubby216
Torqez (3) -- Torqez, Nuwen, Hoopla

I like you [Torqez] already. Let's talk about the

current wagon on

Suave

and Tubby <-> Reck. Suave's wagon is one of classic opportunism.

There's gotta be scum on it

. If you had to pick someone on it to lynch, Torq, who would it be?

What have you taken away from Tubby's fixation on Reck and

Reck's

willingness to lynch

Suave

or Tubby

?

Mike

, you've gone all quiet again.

. . .

I'm a little bothered by this [two quotes from

ekiM

]. When I read post 1, I glanced over the "for claiming purposes" addendum and focused only on "can't think of lynching him until he gets replaced." After rereading, I'm now more concerned by the parenthetical statement - pulling out claims is not the best reason to value a replacement on Day 1. A replacement needs to speak, commit, and tether himself to the game on day 1; valuing claim ability indicates that you might already know that slot's alignment.

Nuwen (1) -- Torqez
tubby216 (1) -- ErictheRed
Hoopla (2) -- MrSuave, Symbol

MrSuave

(5) -- julienvonwolfe, MacavityLock,

ekiM

,

xRECKONERx

, tubby216
ErictheRed (1) -- iamausername
Torqez (1) -- Hoopla

Not Voting (1) -- Nuwen

Note: By the time the following post was made, RECK had switched over to JVW.

I don't see how the wagons on Geek and Suave are comparable - Suave is going to be lynched for being quite useless, inexperienced, and one of the weaker links in the game.

No.

If

Suave

flips scum, expect an

early/mid wagon bus from

at

least

one

other

team

member

. I don't think that Suave is any more likely to be scum than random, however.

[Symbol]

Sorry.

Unvote. Vote Looker.

If it matters.

Warming up to the Tubby-scum possibility. He was gunning for a Suave lynch all day. I think he read Suave as an obvious town power role and wanted to learn specifics.

That's incredibly speculative, though.

[Symbol]

%$#@, sorry about that. Obligatory alt hangover post.

[Symbol]

You're not being a scrub about it.

[Symbol]

Looker's vote for Suave is silly and scummy. Suave killed a mafioso.

RECK is scummy for continuing to avoid posting content.

Tubby is a liability to the town and my read on him is still flip-flopping every new post he makes.

[speculation]I feel like a Hoopla-Nuwen/Looker-RECK scum team would be too easy. Nuwen lurked and Hoopla and RECK were/are clowns. If there's one pro-town-looking mafioso, it's MacavityLock.[/speculation]

[Symbol]

Das L–1.

[Symbol]

And there goes my only strong town read.

Tubby's meta can go fuck itself. He has done zero scum hunting all game and he's consistently damaged the town.

Vote: tubby216.

That does not mean we are going to race to a lynch again.

[Symbol]

Oh, never mind. I thought someone else was killed.

[Symbol]

Stupid, stupid, stupid. Yay, race to another night! Crush any chance of conversation!

FOS: MacavityLock.

Recommends no lynch, but then kicks back and waits for someone else to vote for it before committing with his vote.

[Symbol]

Did you just scum-slip?

[Symbol]

Actually, no, I'm not taking that angle.

The first problem is that some poor guy is going to die tonight without having aired his suspicions. The second problem is that Tubby isn't getting lynched.

[Symbol]

Some poor guy is going to die tonight regardless of whether or not we lynch.

That sort of WIFOM is not a bad thing. If you really don't want to handle it, you can block it out.

The fact is that your push for a no-lynch is anti-information. Like it or not.

[Symbol]

And if we continue to quick-lynch instead of hunting scum, town loses. And if you continue not to scum-hunt now that Suave is proven guilty I will rage all over you post-game.

Unvote. Vote: MacavityLock.

[Symbol]

And yes, broheim, I know the difference between MYLO and LYLO. That's irrelevant.

[Symbol]

And in yet another stroke of sheer idiocy, Tubby puts us at NL–1.

[Symbol]

No.

[Symbol]

Erik just became obvious town. Kick ass and chew bubblegum, Erik.

[Symbol]

Come

on

, guys. Scum-driven convo. Scum-driven race to NL.

Let me put it differently. Tubby is scum. Obvious scum. Starkly obvious scum. Painfully obvious scum. Hoopla posted little content because she knew she could get away with it—we Scummers are too analytical to just accept a player who jokes/screws around as scum. Tubby's doing the exact same thing, but to an extreme, and I maintain that he's playing with less thought than he usually does (as town). Do a meta if you don't believe me.

[Symbol]

(Steps back. Looks at what he's proposing.)

You're right, lynching scum is truly a retarded idea.

[Symbol]

And this is why Tubby is scummy. It's not just a horrible play style that seems to be even worse here than in most of his other games. He goes out of his way to be suspicious and/or do things that expressly damage the town. It's like a comedy act, minus the funny part.

[Symbol]

now that Suave is proven guilty

Wut?

You know what I mean.

[Symbol]

Simple answer: Tubby is scum.

[Symbol]

Oh, I got off my bum and took five minutes to think about this game and realized this is really all too simple, too good to be true.

tubby216

EriktheRed

Symbol

Torqez

iamausername
MacavityLock

Tubby is/was pretty much 100% scum (in addition to being mega-scummy in the first place, tubby never so much as mentioned Hoopla, and vice versa, lazy teammates that they were), so he's got red boldface to represent definite scum. Crossing myself off for practicality's sake, and because, IIRC, I had a scum read (a shaky one, admittedly) on Hoopla from the start. Same goes for Torqez (crossed off). I'd cross out Erik, too, but he didn't really do much with his Hoopla read other than get a player not named Hoopla (JVW) lynched—intriguingly suspicious, but not conclusive in any way, shape, or form.

tubby216

EriktheRed
iamausername
MacavityLock

What I mentioned about about Erik is still notable. In other news, MacavityLock defended Hoopla hardcore from RECK's day 1 accusations of role fishing, but I could see that as Lock-town simply coming to the wrong conclusion (who doesn't?). But in his iso. 21, Lock also planted a "mild town read" on her for no real reason, while gently reminding her to stop being scummy with his "Her iso 16 worries me though" remark. Later on, Lock does call out Hoopla's role fishing, but fails to follow up on it, so that's null, and if anything worthy of suspicion. But we'll play it safe here. Instead, I'd rather swing my attention to iamausername, who I've had a mega-town read on for a long time now (I think I FOSed him when I replaced in, for what it's worth). His posts simply ring town. I'm gonna stick by that read. Let's scratch him off the list.

tubby216

EriktheRed
MacavityLock

Ta-da. One to go if there are only three scum. Back to Lock's posts in isolation. I'm generally not fond of iso. 44, but whatever. Iso. 45 is a lousy case because Erik had more than one scum read (am I right?) and looked pretty pro-town in his beating of JVW despite JVW's flip. And iso. 46 ... I don't get what doesn't compute about that. Erik certainly stretched his self-advertisement, but really, that's a poor case by Lock. Lock really looks like he's reaching and that matches a suspicion of him I've danced around for a good while now: scum trying to legitimately scum-hunt, be pro-town, lead the village all the to hell

and back

, etc. Also, Lock barely conversed with Erik throughout day 1, except for iso. 35 (still Lock's iso.), in which he used the a version of the Too Scummy Fallacy to shield tubby from Erik's attacks.

Now, day 1. MacavityLock tunnel-visioned on Suave

all damn day

. He went after the easy newbie lynch and leaned on it a helluva lot despite carrying the air of an invested scum hunter. If you look closely, he's really just engaged in some sophisticated active lurking. His suspects as he listed them were Suave, Geek (now Erik, popular wagon), Zazie (policy lynch, massive cop-out), and JVW (we all know how he turned out). That list was pared down at the end of day 1 to Suave, JVW, and Erik ... Baffling that JVW and Erik were both among his top three suspects because (a) he barely spoke out against Erik, (b) Erik was pounding JVW

hard

, and (c) he was largely silent about JVW, so that

really

looks like he was setting up for a wagon on JVW. (He does the same thing with Erik and Nuwen/Looker at the start of day 2.)

I can come up with more later if you all hunger for more walls-o'-text. I've only done a cursory review of Erik's posts because I've sold myself on Lock-scum—and I'm not even including the ultra-scum vibes his language has rained down (in my eyes at least) from square one—and because I really think the general pattern of Erik's play and the way he's worked in general looks genuine, even if he has slipped up here and there (and still to a much lesser degree than Lock has). If he's scum, then screw me, but we're auto-lynching Tubby today so it doesn't matter yet.

TLDR:

tubby216

EriktheRed
Symbol
Torqez
iamausername

MacavityLock

Again, the hell with no lynch. We're killing scum and we're killing them right fricking now. Like, really. My confidence in these reads blow the rest of my thoughts this game out of the water.

So please,

Moar voats on tubby216. Please and thank you.

The only argument that can explain tubby's style here is that he is deliberately trolling to sabotage the town's chances, and that's way the hell beyond blacklist. I don't buy it. Let's go. Everyone voting not to lynch is a pansy. String up scum.

[Symbol]

Actually, no.

Unvote. Vote: MacavityLock.

I wanna hang that guy first.

[Symbol]

Okay, I'm a vanilla townie.

You're next, iamausername. Nobody else may claim until iamausername has claimed.

[Symbol]

Why not Lock?

[Symbol]

Torqez claims, and then we twiddle our thumbs until tubby's replacement shows up and claims.

[Symbol]

Really? We're

all

town, huh? Vigilante, doc, no cop? Can someone point me to another example of 3 mafia, 7 townies, 1 doc, 1 vig? In the meantime, tubby's replacement needs to hurry the hell up.

Torqez, it doesn't matter now that we've all just claimed vanilla townie, but the way it works is every player claims cop and gives the results of his investigations. For example:

Night 1: investigated Torqez. Innocent.
Night 2: investigated EriktheRed. Innocent.

Like that. Or:

Night 1: investigated Torqez. Innocent.
Night 2: investigated EriktheRed. Guilty.

That's how it would work, but again, we can't do it now that we've all claimed town.

[Symbol]

I cannot believe the setup is this vanilla. Huh. It is what it is. Tubby for possible mafia roleblocker. Choo-choo on Lock.

[Symbol]

Last post before

Thanksgiving weekend V/LA

.

Iamausername:

Anyway, I'm still not ready to vote tubby, because I am getting really, really bad vibes from Symbol today. He's condemned the speed of yesterday's lynch, even though he had absolutely no problem with it yesterday.

Where did I condemn the speed of yesterday's lynch? All I see is "That does not mean we are going to race to a lynch again." Don't conflate eagerness to wagon (and then possibly/probably lynch) with eagerness to quick-lynch.

He's also been urging people to vote for tubby, tubby is obvscum, while continuing to condemn the speed of yesterday's lynch AND not actually voting tubby himself.

Yeah, I forgot I'd switched over to MacavityLock. Hence the redundant Lock vote after my analysis. (I'm totally scummy, by the way, for being the only one who's made any significant contribution day 3.)

I get a very strong impression that Symbol is waiting for someone to put tubby at L-1 so he can hammer, because he doesn't want to leave the hammer in the hands of town. I don't see why else he wouldn't be voting tubby right now.

No, silly, I want to lynch Lock before tubby. That should be obvious. I

can

see tubby being an asshole townie, though I do think that's about a one-in-a-hundred shot. Lock is just straight-up regular scum with his brain screwed on straight. Hence the Lock vote. I assure you, if the remaining scum (two, I assume) wanted to mislynch tubby they, could have gotten it done in a heartbeat.

Oh, wait, epiphany.

There are now two votes on tubby. Every player has been online recently. Lack of an L-1 and quick hammer can mean one of a few things:

A. Tubby is mafia. His teammate is voting for him.
B. Tubby is mafia. His teammate is not voting for him.
C. Tubby is town. One or two mafiosi are already voting for him.
D. Tubby is town. Zero mafiosi are voting for him.

If tubby is town and neither mafioso is voting for him, then they should have put him at L-1 and quick-hammered him by now. If only one mafioso is voting for him, then the best move for the other is to wait for a townie to vote for tubby, and then hammer him.

So option D is literally impossible unless the mafia is really, really,

really

stupid. Option C is possible, I guess, but I still don't think tubby is town. Option A or B makes the most sense.

Which just got me thinking: Should I put tubby-scum at L-1 so the

town

can quick-hammer him?

I maintain that tubby is playing worse than his meta. (On average, at least...?)

[Symbol]

Also, Lock's failure to pressure his scum buddy tubby isn't looking good for him.

Although I guess the same could be said of iamausername, had I a town read on him.

[Symbol]

Unvote.

Tubby, Lock, and iamausername are all on no-lynch.

Erik and Torqez, please do not hammer no-lynch.

Lock or iamausername, bearing in mind that I will be not voting no-lynch today, give me one good reason why I should not vote for tubby right now.

[Symbol]

Hi. I explained why I wanted to lynch Lock today (and tubby tomorrow), Erik, but fuck it. Apparently the new cool thing to do is throw half-assed accusations at Symbol despite his analysis being the only thing of substance in a long fucking time.

Vote: tubby216.

[Symbol]

(Holds breath.)

[Symbol]

Sigh. You are also blacklisted.

[Symbol]

There really was no reason at all to consider him town ...