Open 172 - Mini Love - GAME OVER!

[Netlava]

/confirm

[Netlava]

I can't see how wanting to play the game is scummy. Was this a joke or do you genuinely believe that starting the game you signed up to play is a scumtell?

Vote: Looker

[Netlava]

I'd love to vote Looker, but I don't think that's the right move right now.

Huh? Why not?

[Netlava]

Because my vote would be the 4th on him. AKA L-2.

4th vote would be L-3. What caused you to think that a Looker vote would be appealing in the first place?

[Netlava]

Pros:
NK "Immunity" for lovers

Cons:
"Immunity" isn't really "immunity" - Scum can NK them when conditions are right
Doc is easier to find
Possible 2 for 1 deal
If the 2 town lovers are lynched, remaining lover duo may remain untouchable due to lylo conditions
Not as fun

[Netlava]

Unvote, vote: Khamisa

[Netlava]

Khamisa quote is lynchworthy, imo.

[Netlava]

What I said was that, at the moment, the scumminess of Khamisa's comment is enough to make me support a Khamisa lynch.

I don't think trying to continue RVS is always scummy. I mean, come on, RVS is girly kiddish fun. Who doesn't love that?

I find Khamisa's quote scummy because:

• - It subtly defends Yankee
  • - Subtly defending anyone makes me suspicious
  - Yankee may or may not have been trying to prolong the RVS, but Khamisa was defending the fact that yankee was trying to prolong the RVS
  • - She may be assuming guilt on Yankee's behalf
    • - Which would contradict her defense of yankee
      - Scum sometimes assume guilt of their scumpartners
  - Tries to be secretive about it
  • - Doesn't mention yankee and no quotes
  - Unusually keen on the accusation of Yankee
  • - I didn't even notice the yankee accusation at first
    - Some time had elapsed after the yankee accusation when she posted
    - Essentially, the attention given to the yankee accusation seems out of place
  - She says "
  not always scummy
  "
  • - The alternative is to simply say, "not scummy"
    - Scum sometimes assume guilt of their scumpartners
    - Implies that trying to prolong the RVS is sometimes scummy
    • - Which may evince a belief on her part that the RVS is sometimes scummy
      • - Which makes her defense of yankee even more puzzling
  - Town are more likely to look forward to the RVS ending
  • - After all, scum are not actually scumhunting
  - Tries to prolong the RVS

[Netlava]

Yeah, I see links between yankee & khamisa. But when someone does something that causes such a link to be made, the suspicion falls on the linker, and not the linkee.

[Netlava]

Could be tunnel vision, but I find Yankee kind of scummy also.

[Netlava]

I was going to whine about Slepz's lurking, but I see he's getting replaced, so looking at the list and scanning for lurkers (sorry, standard procedure here), I notice khamisa still isn't saying anything. Still happy with my vote.

Yankee's reasons for voting me are weird. I mean, first of all he says that being "insightful" is out of character for me. I'd like to think that I'm always insightful, but that's besides the point. Yankee's only played one game with me, so saying that me being insightful is out of character is a slight stretch. But more importantly, I can't follow his line of thought. If you say that I'm being "insightful," that's a good thing, right? So why would I be your top suspect? Even including the "out of character" line of thought, I still don't think it makes sense.

Yankee, if you think my post was "insightful," does that mean you agree with my points on khamisa?

[Netlava]

I find Yankee's misinterpreted opinion on Nikanor's bandwagon idea scummy. He assumed someone was going to hammer instead of the pressure Nikanor wanted. I find it hard for him to interpret that way.

Agreed.

Nikanor, I noticed that you said that Yankee needed to be lynched earlier. What do you think of Yankee atm?

[Netlava]

Unvote, vote: Yankee

I find Yankee scummy, and I feel like his bandwagon could use a little momentum.

[Netlava]

Yankee, how many votes is it to lynch?

[Netlava]

I doubt that Yankee miscounted by 3 when he "hammered." It almost seems like he just wanted a way to say, "go town!" Still fine with his lynch.

Khamisa is likely to be town, imo.

What about her play struck you as being pro-town?

[Netlava]

Missed Yankee's most recent post.

Yankee, how many votes do you think it takes to lynch?

[Netlava]

Also, Yankee, what are your thoughts on other players?

[Netlava]

Unvote, vote: Khamisa

[Netlava]

I think Yankee may be less scummy than previously thought. At the time of his self-vote, my major issue with Yankee was that it looked fake - he unvoted as soon as he found out that it wasn't a lynch. Plus, I had doubts about Yankee's apparent lack of counting ability. But when he voted himself again, it resolved my complaint about the fakeness of his self-vote. That said, Yankee, if you're town, it's not a good idea to be voting yourself.

Plus, it bothered me a bit that Khamisa was on Yankee's wagon. I don't think scum would be that eager to bus.

[Netlava]

Looker, aside from responding to random quotes, who do you think is scum?

[Netlava]

I just get the feeling that Khamisa isn't too interested in scumhunting in this game.

[Netlava]

Waiting for people to vote...................................................

[Netlava]

Waiting on people to lynch................................................ (khamisa in particular)

[Netlava]

The only point of lynching the lover duo is if you think one of them is the treacherous. Ridding the lover duo for the sake of ridding the lover duo is not a good choice, as missing the treacherous lover pair and claiming the other results in a possible 3-1 scum to town tradeoff + 2 NK chances.

[Netlava]

Uh, I prefer lynching the pair with a scummy person in it.

[Netlava]

Khamisa, claim your lover?

[Netlava]

I think Khamisa + whoever is more likely to contain the treacherous than Yankee + HH.

[Netlava]

If we hit the town duo first, we lose out: (3 town lynched, 1 scum lynched, 2 NK chances for scum)

If we hit the scum duo, we have 2 confirmed townies until they get NKed.

[Netlava]

I agree that if Khamisa were scum, Vino would be a likely scumbuddy.

[Netlava]

I don't see the benefits of postponing the lover lynch (though there aren't any drawbacks either). There's no point in postponing the inevitable. The only way to hit the treacherous lover is to choose between the 2 lover pairs, which has to be done eventually.

With the deadline coming close again, I think it may be better if everyone chooses between the 2 lover pairs in order to ensure a lynch. It's not like choosing between 2 random players, as they both might be town - there is guaranteed to be a treacherous lover.

[Netlava]

Vote: animorpherv1

That's the hammer, I think.

[Netlava]

Quoting role PMs is pointless - anyone can take the role PM from the thread and insert names. Animorpherv1 was a "must lynch" anyway.

[Netlava]

Vote: Vino

In any case your inquisition on Khamisa's votes was insightful but I think you were barking up the wrong tree.

I don't think a townie can reasonably say this with such limited information.

You on the other hand are acting scummier and scummier all the time.

A person is either scummy, or not. Saying someone is becoming increasingly scummy seems fake to me.

Nikanor, you need to claim.

Premature to be asking someone to claim.

---

Those were my reasons why I suspected Vino on D1. Looking back now, I find it weird how Vino classified everything before the Locke's vote of Yankee as RVS, essentially dismissing the Looker inquisition as random. Also, some of Vino's posts seem to be off in terms of perspective continuity, but these things never convince anyone, only myself.

[Netlava]

Accusing me of quickhammering is unfair, imo, when you people put animorpherv1 at L-1 so early. Oh, and some other people were even considering hammering themselves. We even have dramonic here claiming to be on a scum lynch before it even happens!

And let's get real, animorpherv1 is not going to "clear" himself. I've seen enough lynches to know that this stuff just doesn't happen, and even if it did, it wouldn't be a good thing in this situation. I need to know animorpherv1's alignment in order to try to make some other reads - I can't go about with animorpherv1's alignment in question. I thought animorpherv1 was town before D2, but when Looker flipped treacherous, I was pretty confused. Animorpherv1 became a "must lynch," imo, so I hammered. Simple. I don't need 100% certainty here.

And about the role PM business - quoting roles PMs doesn't mean anything when the mod claims to have sent the correct role PM. It's not like I'm going to believe anything animorpherv1 says after that. I still don't know what happened with the whole animorpherv1 situation either.

Lastly, I see that snowbunny has voted me. You'll be interested to know that she is my second suspect, and I'm fine with her lynch.

[Netlava]

I didn't think ani had a chance either way.

[Netlava]

Yeah, haven't heard much from Vino & HH yet today.

[Netlava]

Snow bunny & Head honcho are in prod territory.

Request prod on snow bunny and head honcho

Vino still hasn't taken a stance yet today.

[Netlava]

Also,

unvote, vote: Snowbunny

L-1

[Netlava]

Who did you protect N1 kirby?

[Netlava]

...or maybe it's best to keep that info to yourself.

[Netlava]

Snow bunny's been hammered already, btw.

[Netlava]

No reason for scum to counterclaim during non-lylo. My 2 cents.

[Netlava]

Looks like kirby is hopelessly tunnel-visioned onto me. Ah, well, I'll just nightkill him tonight.

[Netlava]

It's simply not worth it for scum to counterclaim in this situation.

[Netlava]

Well, kirby wasn't close to getting lynched. So, it's pretty pointless for him to counterclaim as scum.

[Netlava]

Vote: Vino

For reasons stated earlier. Also, on D3 he was lurkish and he flip-flopped on his stance on snowbunny.

[Netlava]

I still think Vino is scummy. On D1, he dismisses the Looker inquisition as RVS for no apparent reason, even though it wasn't random.

Later, when he accuses Nikanor, his "scummier and scummier" quote gave me a bad vibe. Declaring someone to be increasingly scummy is pretty much an arbitrary decision, since a townie would simply say someone is "scummy" or "not scummy." Interestingly, I was suspicious of Nikanor early on D1, but became less suspicious of him as the day progressed. Vino's reaction is the opposite of mine, so it seems unnatural to me that he would arrive at such a conclusion.

Later, he also tells Nikanor to claim at L-4. Way too early to be asking for a claim.

At the end of D1, Vino says he finds animorpherv1's lover claim surprising, which is a surprising remark in itself. There is no grounding for finding animorpherv's claim surprising. Seems like Vino is working with additional information.

On D3, Vino's play becomes lurkish and non-committal. When he does post, he doesn't take a stance.

When it appears that kirbyoshi might be lynched instead of snowbunny, Vino finds kirbyoshi scummy even though earlier he says that snowbunny was the obvious lynch.

On D4, Vino's play is still non-committal. Again, he manages to skate by without saying anything.

So, overall, I think Vino is scum.

[Netlava]

Since the beginning of D3 until now, Vino hasn't done any scumhunting. He has, however, managed to post 2 days worth of fluff.

[Netlava]

Vote: Vino

[Netlava]

Netalava and Vino, can you please analyse this for me?

Not sure what you're asking here.

[Netlava]

I've already posted why I think Vino is scummy for the most part.

[Netlava]

I will post later today.

[Netlava]

VOTE COUNT
Nikanor (4): Vino, animorpherv1, Snow_Bunny, Looker
Khamisa (3): Kirbyoshi, Head_Honcho, Netlava

Let's see here... all 3 scum were on the Nikanor wagon, which may explain why Nikanor was the NK choice despite having a wagon on him D1. Not coincidentally, Nikanor's top 2 suspects D1 were Snow_Bunny & Vino.

Looking at Vino's vote history, we see that he jumps on the Khamisa wagon relatively late. If he were to vote Yankee, though, he still wouldn't be able to save Looker. So he chooses to bus.

On D3, Vino doesn't really vote anyone. The pressure is on snow_bunny, so his lurkish & non-committal behavior can be interpreted as stalling. By the time Vino posts his stance, Snow_Bunny had already claimed. Interestingly, when kirby looks like he might possibly be lynched, Vino seems ready to join his wagon.

On D4, Vino is again non-committal. This is because he'll have to set himself up for lylo and he has to get a townie mislynched.

[Netlava]

...and content...

[Netlava]

What I mean by "and content" is that Vino's case on me is pretty short. He hasn't accused me of anything.

[Netlava]

Yes, let's lynch Vino already. Btw, Yankee, your vote isn't on Vino atm.

VOTE COUNT

Vino (1): Netlava
Netlava (1): Vino

Not Voting (2): Nikanor, Yankee

With 4 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.
2 is needed to lynch at deadline.

[Netlava]

Hammer!

[Netlava]

It looks like it's a big case, but it's not.

[Netlava]

As in Vino's post looks long, but a lot of it doesn't have anything to do with his actual case.

I've crossed out the irrelevant bits as follows:

@Yankee: So then you don't actually have any concern with my behavior yesterday, just the fact that I got it wrong, even though three other people did too? I can understand if you said, "The nature of your vote was scummy," but you're saying, "You suck at picking scum," which actually isn't really very scummy at all, just means I suck at the game, apparently. Is this just another instance of people building a case against me without any apparent evidence? If you want to vote me on my voting record, then you need to remember that I cast the deciding vote to lynch the treacherous lover pair. Also this is "woulda coulda" but I would have done the same for SB, if I had been around that day.

Anyways let's analyse some voting patterns, starting with Nikanor. My vote of Nikanor happened much earlier than page 14 for these reasons:

* For refusing to back up his votes with more than just "Don't you agree?"
* For going back and forth between votes to see which one will stick.
* For talking so flippantly about lynching lovers.

Naturally it seems I turned out to be wrong, but I still think the logic was good. I still think lover lynching was a bad idea -- Right now all of the lovers but Yankee are currently dead, a situation that maybe could have been avoided. Anyway...

Just after that ani picks up the vote as well, which I didn't particularly enjoy. At the time it seemed like blatant bandwagoning, as if he thought maybe it would pick up steam if he lended his vote to it.

SB's vote of Nikanor was a lot less scummy than her vote on Yankee which was one of the main things that sold me on her being scum. Still, it appears that she was trying to pick up momentum on a new bandwagon or something, I dunno. Two pages later Looker makes his as well, and now there's two scum on a bandwagon that I started. At the time I didn't actually really notice, because Looker's vote came on the end of a huge post that I didn't entirely digest, as it was mostly nit picking between Nik and Looker, but I think the motive probably was more to build up steam than anything else. Yankee was on Nikanor's wagon for a short time on page 13, so it looked as though it was picking up speed. It didn't stick though, and these two stayed with their votes on Nik until they both changed to Yankee on page 21. I think it's pretty telling that their votes seemed to move together, I suppose it's more apparent in retrospect. I remember suspecting at the time that Looker was Khamisa's lover, and my memory is terrible but I think his change over to Yankee was one of my pieces of evidence.

Shortly after that I was forced to pick a side between Yankee and Khamisa, and that ended D1 with the treacherous scum lynch. So let's look at Khamisa's lynch.

Kirbyoshi and Honcho are flipped town and not very interesting to talk about. Here's Netlava's vote of Khamisa.

The entire post is thus:

Unvote, vote: Khamisa

Shortly after he comes up with this, without being pressed for it:

Plus, it bothered me a bit that Khamisa was on Yankee's wagon. I don't think scum would be that eager to bus.

Pretty weak logic in my opinion. Seems more like an excuse to hop on a wagon than it does actual scumhunting. At this point, with both of his buddies on Nikanor's wagon, maybe he thought it was a good time to do some distancing from them. I especially like the follow-up post to that:

Looker, aside from responding to random quotes, who do you think is scum?

Looker responds with her Nikanor vote, dodging the question entirely, and Netlava doesn't take up the case. Looks like scum banter to me.

(I'm just going to continue from here with an iso on Netlava.)

Netlava proceeds to push a Khamisa lynch for a while. I read this as distancing and giving cause for plausible deniability later.

I love this post:

I agree that if Khamisa were scum, Vino would be a likely scumbuddy.

People have paired me with a lot of other people who flipped town in this game.

His last post that day urges more lover lynches, and the from that point he pretty much lurks all the way to Khamisa's hammer, and then all the way through until he hammers animorpherv the next day.

I have to go now, I'll continue later.

---

And a lot of the remaining part is summary.

[Netlava]

You're going to let Vino's appeal to emotion sway your decision?

[Netlava]

OK, in response to Vino's case against me:

- Random vote = distancing tactic (I suppose the other 2 townies who voted Looker were distancing too)
- Snowbunny L-1 vote = bussing (I expressed my suspicion of her before dramonic did. In comparison, Vino lurked when snowbunny was being pressured)
- Snowbunny's vote on me = bussing (Snowbunny pretty opportunistically jumped on my wagon)

He's always attacked me since the beginning of the game without giving any solid reasons (in my opinion) for most of that time, but late in D4 when his endgame is clear, he's already setting up the D5 mislynch by stepping up his attacks at me, such as in 781. He paints my D3 and D4 play as "lurking and non-committal" when in reality it's more like "I'm crazy busy and don't have time to post." A convenient misinterpretation.

Actually, I started expressing my suspicions of Vino towards the end of D1.

[Netlava]

Yankee, what are the reasons for your change in stance?

[Netlava]

Also, the word "lurking" does not necessarily mean one is not genuinely busy, but simply a lack of posting.

[Netlava]

The only so-called "explanation" I see is that you can't get a read.

[Netlava]

Well, I'm waiting for Yankee quote this explanation that I've somehow missed so that I can address it.

[Netlava]

Earlier in the day you seemed pretty convinced that Vino was scum. So I'm just wondering what happened with the sudden change.

I hope you aren't swayed by Vino's appeal to emotion. The following 2 quotes are both appeals to emotion.

This pisses me off. Does anybody even want to read the remaining thoughts that I have about why I think Netlava connects well to SB and Looker, or does nobody even care?

I fail to see the logic behind any of this, and I'm saddened by the apparent lack of caring about any of the things I've said.

"Nobody cares about my case" is designed to evoke sympathy. Apparently, it may have worked somewhat as both Nikanor and Yankee said "I care," perhaps to be nice or something.

The following quote is a misrepresentation.

When there are flipped scum I always look for connections between them and other players, and Netlava connects rather well with Looker and Snow Bunny. It's a shame that the only people who actually did that were Battosai and Kirbyoshi, who aren't in the game anymore.

Battousai was clearly joking when he posted his scumlist, so including him is a misrepresentation of what actually happened.

Also, let's compare the case against Vino with the case against me:

The case against me is that I was bussing Looker (if that can be called a case). However, if I were scum, I wouldn't be so eager to bus from the beginning of the day, knowing the drawbacks of lynching the treacherous lover first. Vino, on the other hand, bussed Looker at the end of the day.

The next point against me is that I misrepresented Vino by calling him a lurker. Unfortunately, I complain about lurkers in every game, because it's important for the town to do so in order to get a read on them. Plus, a lot of scum have lied about how busy they were during the game. See Open 167 for example.

The next point against me is that I bussed snowbunny. I expressed by support for the snowbunny wagon before dramonic had voted. Either way, the word "bussing" can be applied to any townie who had been on a scum wagon.

The case against Vino is more than just blanket labels of "bussing" or "distancing."

[Netlava]

In any case your inquisition on Khamisa's votes was insightful but I think you were barking up the wrong tree.

Here Vino discourages the case against Khamisa. This happens at the very beginning of the game! There's no way a townie could make such a claim so early. There's no reason to be discouraging scumhunting either.

You on the other hand are acting scummier and scummier all the time.

This is a very arbitrary label.

[Netlava]

Yeah, good game.