Open 162--Trendy and Subversive - Over! before 831

[yabbaguy]

It's V2. Never been done before until now.

I'm /ready. Let's roll.

[yabbaguy]

I wouldn't expect a vote to count, but I don't think pre-game discussion is off limits.

[yabbaguy]

I'm always town.

That was fast.

(Let's see if I can beat your record of most-often town. )

[yabbaguy]

@Netopalis-8:

Trying to get the gifs in early, Yabb?

And that's my meta!

My meta is also that I tend to post practically every other post when I'm bored or nothing's happening in my other games. I also tend to use "@Username-###" when referencing posts. I'll make the "@" a hyperlink or use quotes if the post is from way down yonder or across the Great Page Divide. If it's within spitting distance of my post, I'll let you find it yourself.

I also use a different syntax...

Change:

{Username} >>> {speculative/town/tilting scummy/etc.}. When I exposed people as tilting town though, people got upset at me for doing this since it was too scum-friendly. I don't know if I want to use the system again this game, or maybe even not make it as transparent who I believe to be pro-town vs. speculative.

Pegging everyone on a level of scumminess definitely helps me stay focused and not lose track of who I'm going to go after next.

[yabbaguy]

Vote: ABR

for not reading the voting syntax rules.

And CSL, I don't care if the wine's in party cups. I like it.

[yabbaguy]

Unvote:

Wait a minute, I just realized something. This may even be an entirely new setup of Trendy, as you're basically guaranteed one backed up powerrole. This ain't V2 at all. ^_^

[yabbaguy]

...oh, I probably should be including the name, too. The colon just looks dumb all by itself.

Unvote: ABR

[yabbaguy]

@Jahudo-23: No reason. :)

V2 of Subversive, if you were to get a backup, yes, you'd never go up because you now know a certain role doesn't exist. (good for foiling a Mafia claim and confirming that you're town, but nothing beyond that)

This is different. Let's not discuss too much of V2 just so we don't mess ourselves up in a worthless discussion. It's a binary setup this game, you've either got cop/dep or doc/nurse. It's basically one role with two lives.

[yabbaguy]

@Cass-25: I don't agree with you on that point at all. I said we shouldn't be discussing setups that have no relevance to the game. I would, however, like to entertain some strategy discussion. Mainly around claiming or not claiming.

Assuming the following come from scum, what would you advise the real powerroles to do, on D1, if...

...scum claims main role, and has the correct setup (eg: he claims cop, and it's cop/dep)?
...scum claims backup role and is correct?
...scum claims main role, but is wrong about the setup?
...scum claims backup role, but is wrong about the setup?

I'll answer my own questions:

-On point 1, I'd actually put deliberations into just dry lynching the person depending on how certain we are they're scum. With a Mafia RB in play, if the actual main role is to claim, then the RB can just target them and they're locked out. To resurrect our role, we'd have to policy lynch them to "get them out of the way". Maybe a confirmed townie would help, though?
-Claims 2-4 can be contradicted by the backup claiming, which I believe would have no consequence beyond dying.

[yabbaguy]

@Netopalis-30:

1) No idea. I'm curious what's up with his playstyle, but I'm too lazy to go meta-diving. I definitely want to see his answer to question 4.

2) That is a good point, Jahudo-34, how we could go LyLo (it's 5 v 2 now, could be 3 v 2) by D2.

I'm trying to think out loud about the theory behind this game, and I'm still bumbling and stumbling in places, such as suggesting an inane policy lynch that may fail if the other powerrole goes down. The reason I wanted to start the game with a theory discussion was for this exact reason, so that I could compare my notes with everyone else and not look like an idiot or mafia when I come up with said bright or not-so-bright ideas later. I feel this action pro-town, and outweighs any scum benefits that may come out of it.

That said, it is true that our powerrole basically is locked down until we hit the RB should a main role claim.

3) The moderator hasn't even technically said "go" yet. Let's not forget that.

If you can think of a way to flush out scum before then, why haven't you made that play yet?

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. The point of this opening discussion is to look at who's acting shifty, then consistently question them later in the game until you're satisfied one way or the other. There's no surefire tactic, but it's usually a combination of good tactics and then repeated questioning until you're satisfied.

This is a long game. We have time. This opening discussion hopefully will be getting us somewhere.

4) I'm a gambler, and a stats man, at times. I generally tend to be the more laid back sort, trying to stay calm and encourage everyone to do likewise. I don't do textwall infernos, but I do usually have fairly contented posts with questions on specific things people say. I've only gone two games to completion, so I don't know exactly what my strengths and weaknesses are, nor do I have a solidified playstyle.

[yabbaguy]

Re-Unvote: ABR

By the way, apparently there was an issue with whether or not I was actually in the game, the details of which were quite strange to explain. I did receive a role PM though, so I'm good to go. That's why pre-game took forever.

@Jahudo-44: The action of sharing theory. It's somewhat scum-beneficial if they can find some holes in our strategy, but usually this discussion is so that we can plug those holes fast enough before anything goes awry.

Also, again, the game actually started TODAY. It's still 3 weeks, I think. If that's the case, I don't know why people are still freaking out about activity and whatnot when the game start never happened.

@Netopalis-45: The thing is, to me, I think this is way too soon to be going after people for lurking when the clock wasn't even rolling, and the game had hardly gotten off the ground. Even if you think people should've been participating actively, admittedly, very few of us actually did so, as shown by the comparative lull.

@ABR-32: If everyone takes your route of trying to "settle in", the discussion is going to decline and we'll be that much closer to finding ourselves lurking our way to deadline. I do agree that this may take a while to get good reads on everyone, but I'd like your response to Netopalis-30, for one.

[yabbaguy]

@all: Guys... those Unvotes don't count without a trailing colon.

@Khelvaster

: Can we waive that syntax rule? Please?

@all: So this is my first game where our discussion has been noticeably slower than the rest, and I'm not quite sure how to go at this and start setting off more fireworks so that we can start doing more investigating. Any thoughts/ideas?

I can't notice anything alarmingly out of the ordinary in the first few pages, but that may be just because my mind's fried at present.

[yabbaguy]

@CSL+Khamisa: what are your first impressions of everyone?

[yabbaguy]

@Jahudo-73: I don't think that's a valid scumtell, discussing setup and meta when I'm supposed to be talking about... wait, we weren't talking about anything. Also, it's an obv. hyperbole that I have been talking about just those two matters, so you're basically stretching a case on me, which is scummy in itself.

As always, though, I'll answer my own questions.

ABR >>> I wish would post more contented thoughts. Just because he's not totally sure doesn't mean he can't post more detail.

Cass >>> speculative-to-town, granted, I can't venture too many people beyond the speculative line this soon. Mostly a content-based judgment

The reason I put the question to CSL and Khamisa is because they're contributing the least at present. I wish they would answer this and get more involved with the game.

Netopalis >>> speculative-to-town so far. Again, a content based judgment.

Jahudo >>> speculative-to-scummy so far for the crap case pushing.

Why did you feel the need to suddenly thrust the question my way?

[yabbaguy]

@Jahudo-77: Please note the following relevant discussion:

@ABR-32: ... I'd like your response to Netopalis-30, for one.

@all: So this is my first game where our discussion has been noticeably slower than the rest, and I'm not quite sure how to go at this and start setting off more fireworks so that we can start doing more investigating. Any thoughts/ideas?

Big one coming up...

I can't notice anything alarmingly out of the ordinary in the first few pages, but that may be just because my mind's fried at present.

@Netopalis-45: The thing is, to me, I think this is way too soon to be going after people for lurking (etc.)

3) The moderator hasn't even technically said "go" yet. Let's not forget that.

Yes, your statement is a huge hyperbole. I think it and other factors warrant enough for an initial vote.

Vote: Jahudo

@Cass-80: So you or Khamisa don't think (according to later posts) that me or Netopalis was necessarily scum before you asked? Why did you ask that question, then? I don't know if strawman is the right word, but it feels forcing.

To answer my assigned question, I think there is a certain degree to which scum do lurking more often than town, probably because they have to say "the right thing" somewhat, and that they actually serve to benefit if the town's discussion declines. Both sides are capable, and the tell should not by any means be construed as surefire.

@ABR-83: There was a "why" on the end. You're basically actively lurking with blatantly minimalistic replies.

@Khelvaster

: Can we get a "Vote:" count? I put that colon there so you'd see my request.

[yabbaguy]

You had not talked about anything of worth besides setup

That phrase. You explictly said "nothing besides that and meta". There's your hyperbole.

Also, let's take note here, you're targetting me for something multiple other people have done as well, not offering input as to who is scum and who isn't, and just taking the same icebreaker questionnaires that we distributed at the start of the Day. I on the other hand have actually tried to offer, yes, objective and unopiniated questions along with it, while others have not even done so much as that given the opportunity (Khamisa, CSL, ABR come to mind off the top). Calling me scummy for actively trying to offer discussion in comparison is asinine and contrived.

This is good scumhunting to not take a side too quickly and try to see things from a neutral POV before going at it. You on the other hand have decided to fire at me immediately, which to me I deemed scummy because it looks like you're basically trying to pin blame off the bat so that scum have an endgame exit.

It looks to me like your trying to subvert my suspicion by changing the topic.

Elaborate.

[yabbaguy]

All right, let's stop beating up the mod. Point is made.

[yabbaguy]

This game is a trainwreck. The town is getting absolutely sidetracked, and some of you are doing absolutely nothing to help.

Netopalis, Jahudo, and I are doing all the talking here. You other four need to get your asses over here and do productive stuff, or the town is going to lose, and this would probably become a prominent display of how not to play as town. I'm just disgusted and embarrassed at how pathetically we're scumhunting right now.

@Jahudo-95: Your tell's null. Basically, anyone asking a question/questions should be prepared to answer them themselves as applicable. I was unresistant in doing so, so just because I didn't do it up-front doesn't necessarily mean I'm trying to hide opinions or "trap" someone.

@Cass-98: But you're asking something that Khamisa really wasn't opinionated on, as her response showed. Asking questions on who is more comparatively scummy really does nothing good.

Is your vote random, real, or somewhere in between?

@ABR: I have asked you repeatedly for actual input into the game. Please at least acknowledge that I'm insisting you do this.

[yabbaguy]

Two things alarm me:

1) the size of that wood structure Khelvaster has.
2) the fact that I'm at L-1 already (I can't tell if it was deliberate or if we got scrambled up in the middle of our votecount confusion.)

@Jahudo- Not a fan of the fact you're not allowing a "None of the Above" option. I still have that option in the back of my mind, to be honest.

@ABR- What are you trying to accomplish with your reasonless votes? Are you still bandwagonning for the hell of it?

[yabbaguy]

Cass-134:

[ABR] doesn't seem to enjoy the game anyways... So my vote isn't really random, as it expresses a willingness to lynch.

I can't pinpoint where, but this rubs me the wrong way.

[yabbaguy]

@ABR-139: Stop fucking ignoring everything and putting up this bullshit "say nothing" charade. Your play is extremely anti-town, and there's nothing else to it. The fact of the matter is that you've signed up to play a game, and you are expected to play to win. Stop complicating this game more than it has to be.

Now, for the millionth time, what's the basis of your suspicions?

[yabbaguy]

I think scum complacency is present on my wagon, because I've been at L-1 for a very, very long time without anyone giving a damn.

[yabbaguy]

I would have no qualms with lynching Albert. It's L-1 if I vote him, though, so I won't.

[yabbaguy]

If CSL's at L-1, don't vote him. We found one. We'll deal with him later.

[yabbaguy]

It's Netopalis, Khamisa, and you on the wagon. Not ABR, not Jahudo, not Cass, not me.

Day's still on.

[yabbaguy]

Would've been a fine tactic to cut discussion if he was actually at L-1, but he just blundered and miscounted.

[yabbaguy]

I call that accelerating the Day, Jahudo, which is scummy. You're playing the exact same way as CSL-

{cue Netopalis-179}

Never mind.

But nonetheless, trying to curtail discussion when we're not totally sure on the other scum is ridiculous. Your first reason means nothing, and the second one, if it does happen, doesn't outweigh the benefits of scumhunting that we get.

[yabbaguy]

@Khelvaster:

Vote count please, and please be more frequent with them in the future.

[yabbaguy]

We're a pretty fucked up town right now. I honestly am apathetic.

[yabbaguy]

Lock thread?

[yabbaguy]

Khamisa's kill brings up a lot of inferences for me, but I'm spinning in WIFOM logic circles right now thinking about those inferences. I'll be back later.

[yabbaguy]

I'll let my WIFOM theories actually sit for now. They make no sense and are impractical, at present.

If someone counterclaims nurse/deputy today, town wins, since we can afford to lynch both claimers. I can't counterclaim ABR, though.

Without any counterclaims on the table, it's a toss-up between Jahudo and Cass. Netopalis appears town to me, and ABR, I hate him, but he's en route to become confirmed town. Cass isn't a name I have surfaced with before, but I remember one of her posts pinging scummy to me overnight. I'll look back.

Either way, my confidence is brimming right now.

[yabbaguy]

Majority is not always right, of course. If it were, my (admittedly provisional) town record should be in the winning column. >_>

Other correction: Cass is female. At least she actually has a gender icon... *mutters*

Jahudo

.

[yabbaguy]

Can everyone just say that they are or aren't a backup? Let's be systematic about this.

@Khelvaster: Can you tell Cass D2 is on?

[yabbaguy]

X

Cass hasn't shown up, for starters, so you're not at 100% yet. If your claim is true though, it'll become apparent without any intervention from you. C'mon, you know that.

I'm trying to instigate a pro-town process here. I like borderline-OCD claiming styles, because I've missed a camouflaged docclaim in a prior game, and a very reckless and belligerent town lynched me for it.

If I'm missing something, let me know.

[yabbaguy]

Simple disinterest/forgetfulness.

I also don't know how to answer that question. I didn't observe any CSL reactions, nor do I have the sort of meta Netopalis does.

[yabbaguy]

Earth to Cass?

[yabbaguy]

I refuse to defend against someone who simply refuses to read the topic.

[yabbaguy]

PM'd Khelvaster about Cass. He's picked up the PM...

[yabbaguy]

The mod. PMing another player is against the rules, of course.

[yabbaguy]

http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/43833

[yabbaguy]

You voted me already.

[yabbaguy]

Whoa, simul.

[yabbaguy]

Chinaman, first order of business.

ABR's claimed nurse. Can you counterclaim it yourself?

[yabbaguy]

ABR's confirmed then.

I'll catch up with this later, right now, my mentality's a bit scatterbrained in real life and Mafiascum.

[yabbaguy]

Still here. This is the hardest game I've ever had to deal with.

[yabbaguy]

First off:

Secondly... I've been busy with real life. I am in multiple games right now. I am a very busy high school student. Therefore, yes, I habitually forget multiple things that come up in games, such as cases against me, questions I mean to pursue, this happens. Calling it scum-pushing is a stretch, but I'll admit has some level of plausibility, and that's due to my laziness partially as well. Apologies to anyone who concurs with this.

However, saying that I haven't done a single pro-town thing is total crap. Nor is any implication of the hyperbole even close to the truth, compared to the other players in the game. My posts were of relative size to the others, of relative good content to the others, and this is all given the state of the game. The fact that Jahudo manages to miraculously weed me out as the most anti-town player in rather decisive fashion leads me to... well... deduce that he's scummy in rather decisive fashion.

The WIFOM circles had to do with the scum being scared that the doc actually existed, but I knew that they were useless speculations, because ABR was about to confirm or squish that theory one way or another. Plus, the reasons didn't really benefit scumhunting to me.

I struggled with the thought after Neto got voted, but I still adamantly believe Neto is pro-town simply due to the fact that scummy behavior has been absent throughout, esp. D1. Jahudo followed distantly by Chinaman remain my scumlist at the moment. The latter's just gut feeling, but Jahudo is hyperbolizing and pushing crap cases of his own, and evidence which is disproven by hypocrisy.

Vote: Jahudo

And *that's* L-1, with Netopalis on board as well.

@ABR-278: Don't forget the colon.

[yabbaguy]

Quickhammers in a small game should be setting alarm bell in the fire station off right now, especially considering that was probably one of the most abrupt reversal of opinions I've ever seen. No less a double reversal "okay, I'll hammer yabba-, OH LOOK AT THAT GLORIOUS PRO-TOWN POST! HAMMER JAHUDO!"

291- I don't know what "just having fun" is supposed to mean.

@Jahudo-297: even D2-wise, I'd disagree with your statement. Either way, Cass/China remains the most anti-town player in the game, and thus should be lynched next Day barring any claims.

[yabbaguy]

309's an Appeal to Emotion, 305 is a flustered defense because he thought I still could be doc after I NO LESS POSTED A BIG FLASHING IMAGE that clearly said CLAIM: VANILLA.

China just keeps running into a wall every time he posts.

@Jahudo-317: It's all right. Just make sure you're not stretching the cases too far, or else it starts to attract just a bit too much attention and leads to tunnelvisioning.

@ABR: What led you to believe I was doc?

[yabbaguy]

305's all the China-damning evidence I need.

[yabbaguy]

If I were scum, would I have A: quicklynched and looked really scummy and B: Claimed doc?

Yes, because you're WIFOMing me and appealing to emotion. Even though your supposed disguise is down... you're still playing like scum.

Calling it WIFOM doesn't make it right, either.

I personally think if you [Neto] claim doc, Yabba will CC and I will believe him over you.

Explain that.

---

I also find it funny you're resorting to the "come on you idiots/I thought d3x said you were smart/it's plainly obvious" point when on any other game, this situation would be a more speculative one. You can't force the situation just because you know it to be right from a pro-town vantage.

Come on. I thought you were smart.

[yabbaguy]

ABR- there's a roleblocker. I don't think your fate looks good.

[yabbaguy]

...everyone already knows ABR's gone.

[yabbaguy]

Doesn't matter that you were right in the first place, China. Fact of the matter is that you shifted TWICE and in abrupt fashion.

You trying to "confuse a claim," everyone knows that a doc was still sticking around, so that would've been dumb. Also, it would've been sheer stupidity for the doc to claim up-front, because while the counterclaim wouldn't happen, then the mafia elects to claim vanilla and we wind up with a speculative game as well.

So now craplogic is surfacing. No way you're town.

[yabbaguy]

Yay, I get to be the swing vote.

[yabbaguy]

No questions.

Vote: Chinaman

Yes, totally bolded, totally real, no fakevote bullshitting to be found. I'm laying it down now.

Why:

*China was inconsistent, he wants to "ask permission before hammering", than hammers Jahudo without warning.
*China hops from Netopalis to me to Jahudo in the span of a few posts.
*Netopalis' cases against CSL appear legitimate and not distancing.
*Netopalis, as a whole, has made a significantly higher contribution level to the game than China or Cass combined.

I'm satisfied with my decision after ISO reading thoroughly, and ready to bottle it here. Good game, all.

[yabbaguy]

...you were srsly scum, Net?

[yabbaguy]

*shrug*

Hard to cut through all that anti-town and doc-confusion BS from China. Can't say I fault myself.

[yabbaguy]

I mean, Cass was part of it, but your biggest mistake was playing doc like scum. I'm chillin' with the villain himself, and Net says that he's happy you did that, because now when you wind up acting scummy like that, and it comes down to your word against his in LyLo, I'm gonna hammer the scummy player, and would be stupid to do otherwise.

Don't play like scum just to avoid the NK. You've now seen the consequences of it first-hand. You gotta just stick it out pro-town throughout, it's your best bet. People believe you more that way.

[yabbaguy]

Setup wise: let's avoid this variant. While I obv. saw the one where scum win, it's too easy to claim in this game, thus leading to town-weightedness. Keeping it in a 4-possibility setup leads to more dispute over claims, which is good for a balanced setup.

Khel is the very definition of a known-flaker farside and I were discussing (albeit in an non-game related PM) and needs to not moderate again until he is absolutely satisfied he can do this and doesn't have to burn any barns instead. Also, Khel, if you absolutely must use Ctrl+F, try insisting on leading "#" symbols, which nobody can screw up so long as they don't forget. The colon's too easy to mess up and forget, or misspace.

[yabbaguy]

So you obviously would've sided with the latter, but that would've left me, you, and Jahudo. We already saw Jahudo's neck wrung, and me vs. Netopalis... well, China would've gone for you, but you would've killed him because you're smart and ABR would've hammered me in all likelihood.

[yabbaguy]

Boredom is not an excuse to play anti-town on purpose.