Newbie 817 (Game over!)

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Do you think it would be helpful for me to claim now?

Vote: Halidon

This vote is not random.

/win


Hi all! If anyone has questions about gameplay or anything else feel free to ask.

Yippee! Started!

So this is a random vote to get the guy to claim?

vote- iamausernam

Now what happens?

Random voting is to get discussion started (the more I play this game the more I hate random voting). You typically want several pages of chatter Day 1, from everyone, so that we can start to get a handle on possible alignments.

Day 1 usually ends with a Town lynch, but you use the information from the lynch and the night kill on Day 2 forward, plus the chatter from Day 1, to make educated guesses as to people's alignments.

No, it is NOT a good idea to No Lynch on Day 1, so let's not suggest it.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

For the intro- never played before, just read a mafia game on another forum, thought it sounded pretty cool, and decided to get some experience before joining one.

Well, isn't it random at the beginning of the game if there hasn't been night? Since nobody has any idea at all?
So we're not supposed to claim? sorry, this is slightly confusing. The game I saw was probably wierd- it was themed and all.

Anyway, what do we do if we don't claim? Apart from making useless and irrelevant posts?

Don't read a themed game and try to apply those processes here - there are usually claiming strategies in themed games that actually help you figure out who is who that don't apply to non-theme games such as Newbie games.

No claiming until you are at Lynch - 1. Don't give the Mafia any more information than they already have until absolutely necessary.

Eventually someone will say something that has meaning behind it, and we'll quickly get away from the random posts. Don't ever think of this as a useless or irrelevant part of the game - the Random vote part of the game can actually be quite useful later on to help decipher alignments.

I would like to hear bouch's answer to iama's question, because I don't think it was answered. I would also like to know why crazy answered for bouche in post 11.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I completely forgot this website existed, to be honest. I don't even lurk (and yes I am dangerous don't fuck with me bro).

Also, I'm still keeping my vote for iamausername, because he is mean, and talks a lot. Sounds like scum to me.

You completely forgot the website existed? So you /in for nexted... replied promptly to your role PM (as we all did, which is a good sign for the game) and then up and forgot that the website even existed? And as soon as a vote is cast against you all of a sudden remember that you're playing this game and respond to it? Not buying it- and if that's you being "honest" I can't trust you. In my book you went from quiet to being both an active lurker and a liar.

So, I'm gonna fuck with you bro...

Unvote: Jeromus

Vote: BagSquad

This. This is the most non-random thing to happen so far, and a little pressure isn't going to hurt.

vote: BagSquad

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Answering iama's q- I thought we were supposed to claim, because that's what I think people did in the game I watched. Which, I guess because it was themed, made it different, or maybe I remembered wrong.

lol- I think what iamusername found suspicious about bagsquad is that he had no earlier posts. Lurker!!!!

Wait, is baggy a lurker? What is a lurker?

Can they be dangerous, or just annoying?

Both. If it's a Townie lurking, it's mainly just annoying. If it's scum...

The problems with lurkers is that you can't get any info from their posts because they're not posting. So unless you can determine their alignment by process of elimination it's a bit unsettling to have someone lurking - there's no way to tell if they're the last person holding the gun.

People lurk for different reasons. The trick is to determine the type of lurking. Someone who is not saying too much, posting just enough to keep from getting prodded, and/or not really forwarding the discussion has a better chance to be scum than not. This is also known as active lurking.

Active lurkers need to get a few votes on them for some pressure and start answering questions. If the questions aren't answered soon they need to be lynched, IMO. Most Mods will NOT replace active lurkers, because they are fulfilling the "1 post every 72 hours" rule. Keeping an active lurker around past Day 1 or 2 is not a good idea, because Day 3/4 is the last day in the game, and active lurkers, if they're not scum, give a Mafia a perfect place to hide in the endgame. In the absence of any other information to make an informed decision, lynching an active lurker on Day 1 is preferable to just random lynching. You get rid of a scum, or you get rid of a Townie who wasn't really trying to help you win the game.

If someone has previous games you can look to see if this is "normal" play for them (this is called having a meta - by previous games a player has establised that this is "normal" behavior during play for them, and so it's not a reliable scum tell for that person).


I HIGHLY suggest you read over the wiki. There are some great articles in there, especially in the Theory section.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I completely forgot this website existed, to be honest.

I don't even lurk

(and yes I am dangerous don't fuck with me bro).

Also, I'm still keeping my vote for iamausername, because he is mean, and talks a lot. Sounds like scum to me.

Sorry for the triple post. As an example from the previous post of mine, I went and looked for other games from BagSquad to see if the statement "I don't even lurk" is true - I wanted to see if his meta matched what he was telling us.

There are no other games for BagSquad. He /in'd to the Newbie queue on 27 Nov of '08, and then nothing until this past Sunday (the 19th) when he /in'd again.

He was replaced by me, as the Mod, in Newbie 709 for failing to post after he confirmed his role PM (3 Dec - 9 Dec '08).

So, since you don't have any games on this site, I am leaning towards your statement of "I don't even lurk" as being an Appeal to Emotion, with the intent being to get people to back off. Add to this the fact that you were in a game I modded in late '08 in which you

lurked badly enough to get yourself replaced

and the statement is just complete and utter bullshit. BagSquad, I would like a defense of this please, and I'm expecting a very specific set of answers.

Also, can you point me to other games on other sites I can peruse? I normally don't care about meta, but your very first post of the game is scummy scummy scummy and I want to pursue this line.

As of right now, I do not intend to move my vote from BagSquad unless someone just flat-out admits that they're scum, or I get the answers I'm looking for. One lie is too much. A second wrapped in an Appeal to Emotion goes over the top. There's a reason for Lynch All Liars.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I completely forgot this website existed, to be honest.

I don't even lurk

(and yes I am dangerous don't fuck with me bro).

Also, I'm still keeping my vote for iamausername, because he is mean, and talks a lot. Sounds like scum to me.

Sorry for the triple post. As an example from the previous post of mine, I went and looked for other games from BagSquad to see if the statement "I don't even lurk" is true - I wanted to see if his meta matched what he was telling us.

There are no other games for BagSquad. He /in'd to the Newbie queue on 27 Nov of '08, and then nothing until this past Sunday (the 19th) when he /in'd again.

He was replaced by me, as the Mod, in Newbie 709 for failing to post after he confirmed his role PM (3 Dec - 9 Dec '08).

So, since you don't have any games on this site, I am leaning towards your statement of "I don't even lurk" as being an Appeal to Emotion, with the intent being to get people to back off. Add to this the fact that you were in a game I modded in late '08 in which you

lurked badly enough to get yourself replaced

and the statement is just complete and utter bullshit. BagSquad, I would like a defense of this please, and I'm expecting a very specific set of answers.

Also, can you point me to other games on other sites I can peruse? I normally don't care about meta, but your very first post of the game is scummy scummy scummy and I want to pursue this line.

As of right now, I do not intend to move my vote from BagSquad unless someone just flat-out admits that they're scum, or I get the answers I'm looking for. One lie is too much. A second wrapped in an Appeal to Emotion goes over the top. There's a reason for Lynch All Liars.

To answer crazy since he posted before I could finish this:

It's not about being harsh to a new player. By answering for someone, you're taking away information about that person that would have appeared when they answered the question. Let people answer questions for themselves so that we get the clues as to alignment that we need to win this game. It also makes it look like you're potentially feeding a partner information so they don't screw up and get caught.

Think about the game from iama's point of view, rereading the post where he voted for BagSquad, and you'll understand it. The OMGUS vote is much more telling than iama's post, and it adds another nail to the coffin.

BagSquad is at the top of my list, and I don't even have a distant 2nd. Because of that, BagSquad should not be lynched in the next 5 posts. Long days = good for town. Town needs information for the upcoming days. We also need to find his partner, assuming for the sake of this discussion that BagSquad flips scum when he's lynched.

No I did not realize that Elmo messed up the vote count, but even so, L-2 is not a bad place for BagSquad to be for the screwup he perpetuated. I'm very happy with BagSquad to be at L-2, and I think he should stay there until he answers the accusations leveled against him.

Mafia will NOT quicklynch BagSquad in this situation. They would both need to vote to do so, and it would out both of them way too early in the game. If BagSquad was at L-1 I could see the need to be ansy, but not L-2.

Your point against start for his aggressiveness is bad. In fact, this entire paragraph:

Mod: You messed up the vote count Iamusername is voting for BagSquad. Given that information, BagSquad is now at L-2. This is a situation for a mafia quicklynch. I find BagSquad suspicious, but not suspicious enough to warrant a lynch. I think startransmission is very suspicious as well. 2 of his 3 posts have been with a hot temper, very scum like. Vel-Rahn Koon, did you realize when making your vote that there were 2 votes already on BagSquad, not 1? As of right now, here is my final call:
Unvote
FoS: BagSquad, Startransmission, Jeromus

Is a bit off. You're attacking someone for being aggressive, which is not a scumtell. You're also slightly defending the scummiest, BY FAR, player in the game at this point. Why? If he's suspicious, why is he not suspicious enough for a lynch? Again, I'm not advocating lynching

right now

, and if that's also what you're trying to say you need to think about your word choices in the future, since your statement seems very black and white. I'm reading it as saying that you won't consider lynching him, yet you've placed him first in your FoS list.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Well I did it. I fucked up and hit the Edit button on crazy's last post instead of hitting the Quote button. I put it back the way it was and am adding here what I was trying to reply to:

It's not about being harsh to a new player. By answering for someone, you're taking away information about that person that would have appeared when they answered the question. Let people answer questions for themselves so that we get the clues as to alignment that we need to win this game. It also makes it look like you're potentially feeding a partner information so they don't screw up and get caught.

I think I may have misinterpreted Bouchedufou's post. He said "So this is a random vote to get the guy to claim?" I thought he was making an open question about his own vote, not questioning Jeromus' vote. That's why I answered his question and didn't really see any harm in answering it. If I'm still misinterpreting it, feel free to point it out.

I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the fact that you answered the question iama asked in post 6. That's what the above is in reference to. I think we're talking about two different things, but the advice is still sound. Don't answer for others - let them dig their own graves

No I did not realize that Elmo messed up the vote count, but even so, L-2 is not a bad place for BagSquad to be for the screwup he perpetuated. I'm very happy with BagSquad to be at L-2, and I think he should stay there until he answers the accusations leveled against him.

Mafia will NOT quicklynch BagSquad in this situation. They would both need to vote to do so, and it would out both of them way too early in the game. If BagSquad was at L-1 I could see the need to be ansy, but not L-2.

I know that 2 mafia will not both vote for BagSquad. But 1 mafia might, and a newbie at the game also might, thinking that it'll help move the game along. I don't want things like that to happen this early in the game, especially after the disastrous Day 1 lynch in 807 which happened in the game I was playing in.

That's what the Newbie games are for - so that people can screw up and learn from their mistakes before joining a large, 30 person game where you're going to get some serious hate thrown at you for making a Noob mistake.

Your point against start for his aggressiveness is bad. In fact, this entire paragraph:

Mod: You messed up the vote count Iamusername is voting for BagSquad. Given that information, BagSquad is now at L-2. This is a situation for a mafia quicklynch. I find BagSquad suspicious, but not suspicious enough to warrant a lynch. I think startransmission is very suspicious as well. 2 of his 3 posts have been with a hot temper, very scum like. Vel-Rahn Koon, did you realize when making your vote that there were 2 votes already on BagSquad, not 1? As of right now, here is my final call:
Unvote
FoS: BagSquad, Startransmission, Jeromus

Is a bit off. You're attacking someone for being aggressive, which is not a scumtell. You're also slightly defending the scummiest, BY FAR, player in the game at this point. Why? If he's suspicious, why is he not suspicious enough for a lynch? Again, I'm not advocating lynching

right now

, and if that's also what you're trying to say you need to think about your word choices in the future, since your statement seems very black and white. I'm reading it as saying that you won't consider lynching him, yet you've placed him first in your FoS list.

I've always seen aggressiveness as being a bit scummy. It makes a person seem as if they're a scum trying to get the rest of the town to follow their vote and lynch a townie. Sure it can be helpful if you're a doctor questioning a known mafia but that's not the case here. Besides, doesn't anyone else thinking saying:

A no lynch is a fucking disaster. Those who argue for it are always firmly at the top of my scum list. Just saying. I'd go into it, but our illustrious IC would do a better job.

to someone who's brand new to the game is extremely harsh? There was no need to curse, it was still the first page of the game. But back to VRK's point. I wouldn't mind a lynch of BagSquad, I just don't think it needs to be right now. Like I said:

if he posts too sparsely in the game then I'll support your vote to lynch him

Sorry if I wasn't clear.

That's nothing. Try playing with Albert B. Rampage, or TSQ, or SensFan, or one of the other REALLY aggressive players. Some people just play like that, effectively making it a null tell. Just because it might offend your moral sensibilities doesn't make the person scum. This can also quickly lead to tunnel vision - simply because a person cusses, which you don't like, and now you're mentally painting them as scum in the back of your mind. The best players in this game look at every post objectively. Don't read into it something that may or may not be there. And besides, it's the internet


Elmo: If you need to ModKill me for fucking up I understand.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

EBWOP: Since I can moderate Newbie games I have an Edit button as well as the Quote button, in case anyone was wondering where their Edit button is

You don't have one, because it leads to screw ups like that. We don't allow Editing because your posts should be a record of everything you say, and if you catch yourself in a mistake and correct it before someone else sees it you're taking away a possible way for Town to catch Mafia. You guys may not have ever known anything, but rules are rules.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I'll make this short- gotta go to school.

I agree that the outlook for bagsquad looks pretty bad, but for the sake of squeezing more info, I still think jeromus should at least post or get replaced.

Anyways, sorry about all the double posting.

Remember that the game just started Friday, and most people don't post as much on the weekends. Maybe request a prod, but since it's only been 48 hours I doubt it'll get granted.

Note: Thanks Elmo for letting me continue - I'll be more careful!

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I'm with the majority here. Bag has had questions asked of him, and we get post 49. If you're town, you're a Mafia's wet dream.

Mod: Can we get a forced replacement if this keeps up?

I'm guessing the answer is no, but it can't hurt to ask. We have 2.5 weeks left, and I'd rather see an active player in that role than what we have now.

I'm writing a test for tomorrow, so not a whole lot for now. I'll be back tomorrow after reading again during the exam proctoring.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

The problem as I see it is, now we're pretty much back to the random stage. Very few solid leads apart from baggy, and he's not doing anything to defend himself. Therefore, I think we should ignore baggy unless he speaks up as we've still got 3 weeks to go over.

How is ignoring him going to help? If he's town, he's not helping us win the game and he's not living up to his win condition. If he's scum, you're giving him a free pass. Ignoring him is the worst thing we can do. Bag either needs to answer the questions asked of him, or get replaced so we can have someone in there who is willing to, you know,

play the game

.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

The problem as I see it is, now we're pretty much back to the random stage. Very few solid leads apart from baggy, and he's not doing anything to defend himself. Therefore, I think we should ignore baggy unless he speaks up as we've still got 3 weeks to go over.

How is ignoring him going to help? If he's town, he's not helping us win the game and he's not living up to his win condition. If he's scum, you're giving him a free pass. Ignoring him is the worst thing we can do. Bag either needs to answer the questions asked of him, or get replaced so we can have someone in there who is willing to, you know,

play the game

.

Maybe ignore is the wrong word, but read one of my earlier posts. I'm basically saying that until he reacts, it's pointless for us to focus on baggy. We'll be bogged down on somebody who we'll probably lynch anyway, when instead we could be examining someone else. If he replies, we should definitely pay attention, but right now? Our time would be better spent turning up the heat rather than sitting around congratulating ourselves.

I see what you're saying, and I agree, although I don't think we're sitting around congratulating ourselves. Activity has dropped off, but I think it's because so many of us are waiting on BagSquad to either say something more than 4 words that actually resembles a defense or get replaced. So, who do you suggest we focus on, and why?

iama, I'd like to know what

you

think of Maemuki, jeromus, bouched and Starbuck. You've asked all of them questions to get a handle on alignment, and I think you owe the rest of us a good turn so we can get a handle on yours.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

A Q for the

Mod

: We won't get a forced replacement, but since his last reply was

Mon Jul 27, 2009 8:16 am Post subject: 49

, if he doesn't respond at all by Sat Aug 1, 8:16 am, under the rules he'll still get replaced, right?

Close - if he hasn't responded 48 hours from when he was prodded, which is 4 hours from now, he'll be replaced.

Waiting for this and a response from iama.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

@hiphop: what kind of a response are you going for from iama right now? At least ask him a question.

Now I'm getting confused. Do we take what hiphop says at face value? The main accusations against baggy from what I read were:
a) unresponsive
b) replies were nonsense.

Now hiphop comes along and says he will be responsive, and try to do something. What now?

Do you think that hiphop should be held accountable for BagSquad's actions, based on the two main accusations you list above?

As I said earlier, please no one else answer for someone. I want to hear bouch's responses.

Welcome hiphop.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Roles are assigned randomly. Most Mods use Random.org to pick the setup type and the role assignments.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

@bouchedufou:


Please answer this:

@hiphop: what kind of a response are you going for from iama right now? At least ask him a question.

Now I'm getting confused. Do we take what hiphop says at face value? The main accusations against baggy from what I read were:
a) unresponsive
b) replies were nonsense.

Now hiphop comes along and says he will be responsive, and try to do something. What now?

Do you think that hiphop should be held accountable for BagSquad's actions, based on the two main accusations you list above?

As I said earlier, please no one else answer for someone. I want to hear bouch's responses.

Welcome hiphop.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

unvote

Don't have time atm for a post of substance. Hopefully in the next 24-48 hours.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

And finally, Vel-Rahn Koon:
Your posts haven't really offered much insight into the game itself, you have been mainly asking questions rather than commenting on other people's play. Does your vote for hiphop hold or is that a vote for BagSquad? If you intend to keep your vote on hiphop, why so? Do you think that Bouchedufou's vote on hiphop is a good vote? How about mine? What do you think of other people's play?

Mod: 72 hours since Maemuki startransmission and iamausername's last posts?

I'm asking questions to get a handle on other people's alignments. I ask questions to see why people are doing what they're doing. What commentary on play should I be making? People can fend for themselves, and if they post something ill-thought-out then it gives us more information to work with. If something doesn't sound right to me, I question the specific action with as neutral a tone as possible to avoid giving clues as to the answer I'm looking for. We've got plenty of rope; may as well let people use it.

Obviously the vote on hiphop was a hold over, or else I wouldn't have unvoted, so that's taken care of itself. I left it there because I didn't have anywhere else to put it.

I'm much happier with your vote on hiphop than bouche's vote. The logic seems to be more sound in your case, but in either case I think that hiphop is looking more townish so I think the votes are in the wrong place. My biggest suspicions at the moment are on bouche and Mae, the first for seeming to be a bit panicky the second for going with the flow and not offering anything worthwhile. Both of these could be attributed to Newbieness so I'm not voting for now.

I've got Town vibes off some of the players, but honestly I don't like saying who I find Town and who I don't - I feel that it helps the Mafia make up their mind about who to NK.

If I

had

to lynch someone right now it would be bouche, followed closely by Mae. He (gender ?) has had several people push against him, and knowing his alignment would help lead us to other potential suspects. Mae's lynch wouldn't help get us much more information like bouche's could potentially get us, but the active lurking is not helping get a handle on alignment. Good question crazy - do you have an opinion as well to add?

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

If I

had

to lynch someone right now it would be bouche, followed closely by Mae. He (gender ?) has had several people push against him, and knowing his alignment would help lead us to other potential suspects. Mae's lynch wouldn't help get us much more information like bouche's could potentially get us, but the active lurking is not helping get a handle on alignment. Good question crazy - do you have an opinion as well to add?

I don't see that knowing bouched's alignment would be particularly more helpful than knowing anyone else's, and I don't like this as a reason to support his lynch at all. Lynching someone because "it will be useful to know their alignment" is a good line for scum to push, because no one can say they were wrong if the player in question turns up town.

Do you think Mae's lurking has been more egregious than jeromus?

---

Lynches I would support at the moment:

jeromus
VRK
startrans

in that order.

Unvote, Vote: jeromus

Notice how the question was asked and the bolded part of my statement. If I

HAD

to lynch someone,

RIGHT NOW

. Frankly I don't see any "good" candidates for lynching at the moment. But we're not under the HAVE TO clause at this time - we still have until Friday.

As for the jero versus Mae line, yes I do think Mae's lurking has been more egregious because her lurking has been more active than jero's. And since Elmo is replacing jero I have to believe the problems he said he was having were genuine.

you shouldn't assume in this game either, just because I haven't voted yet, doesn't mean I don't have my suspicions. I would like to have the active lurkers weigh in a bit more.

That is the problem, why should they weigh in, if you are not? Your suspicions make them post. The reason this game is slow is because nobody finds a reason to weigh in. "I do not want to tip off the scum, so I won't weigh in." is what I get off of vrk. Somebody must weigh in, and throw suspicion around. I have news for you. The scum already know everything the town knows. In fact they have an advantage, being they know who they are and who we are. So vrk, I would appreciate if you let a little more info leak out. We beginner players may not see everything you seem, so we have even more of a disadvantage.

Fair enough. I will do a PBPA of everyone within the next 24 hours, since the deadline is near. I'm not going to write a wall of text - I will give a synopsis of my major suspicions with regards to each player. The read through this will require may spark something that I hadn't considered before.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Sorry guys, my class' final exam is tomorrow and I've had students in and out of my office since Tuesday morning. Every time I sit to read I get interrupted, so this is going to have to wait. I still have to get the final exam written and I'm out of time both here and IRL.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

PBPA (I may ask redundant questions that have already been answered. This is me thinking aloud mostly):

bouchedufou

:

Post 5/12/13, etc: bouched is demonstrating true Newbie behavior. This is making it difficult for me to determine Newbie-Town, or Newbie-Scum.

53: For a Newbie, 53 is quite insightful. This makes me lean towards Newbie-Town.

88: Confusion from a main lynch candidate getting away due to a replacement (scum tell) or true confusion?

124: Does a lot of focusing on Jero up to this point because of his "lurking", but Mae was lurking just as badly. Why the tunnelvision?

254: Well, this was supposed to be a short and sweet PBPA to get my feelings on people out there, but you can see what it's turned into simply because I haven't been able to play for a week or so. Please do stay, but you may want to take 5-10 minutes a day just to look over the thread and take notes. That way when you get back you can more easily pick up where you left off. Don't turn into me

crazypianist1116

:

crazy's input has been solid; leaning toward a Town read.

100: A notable oddity in otherwise good play. The comment about starbuck not talking about him is off. Up to that point, Starbuck's dozen or so posts had focused almost exclusively on BagSquad, with the intro post being about (from what I'm reading) the scummiest people in her eyes at her entry point. Why do you need validation about your playstyle from other players (see hiphop post 165, below).

hiphop/BagSquad

:
BagSquad was terrible, and thankfully got replaced by an active player.

I don't like the hiphop vote-hopping. I'm also not impressed with the "don't hold BagSquad's actions against me". Why? You may not be the same people, but you share the same role, and therefore if you are scum you will both act scummy, independent of the player.

hiphop claims, in post 87, that he has played in a couple of theme games on another site. Barring the differences in playstyle between the two sites, hiphop shows a lot of confusion for someone who has a couple of theme games (which typically are more difficult due to extra mechanics).

Post 104 is similar. Lots of confusion, yet he's got some experience. This more than anything is the red flag for me - trying to play the Newbie card, but by self-admission is not a Newbie. Maybe a Newbie to this site, but Mafia theory is Mafia theory. I would not expect this kind of confusion from someone who claims to have a couple of games under his belt.

108/146/182: FoS mentioned (I'll come back to this later)

112: vote on Bouched which, for all intents and purposes, is his second random vote. I'd call it an OMGUS vote, but at the point this vote was cast Bouched hadn't voted for hiphop, so I'm more inclined to call it an Appeal to Emotion. He targeted you after you only made one post? So what? You yourself stated in post 122 that you shouldn't get worked up over one vote, and Bouched didn't even vote you! You're reacting to him with a vote for no logical reason. How is voting for someone who "targeted you after one post" when you replaced Scummy McScummerson not getting worked up?

135/140: very sensible. Even though you have a player in mind, you should still be keeping your eye out for the other scum and not tunnel-visioning. This is the kind of thing, though, that doesn't lend the "I'm a confused Newbie" stance any weight.

153: Just because someone thinks another is Town doesn't mean they shouldn't try to poke holes in their logic. If you notice something wrong with someone's logic, it's because they're either confused, or their spinning it. The former isn't so bad, the latter is a scumtell. There is NOTHING that says you can't change your mind about someone's alignment.

165: This is a lot like a person asking a cop to investigate them that night. There's no reason for this. The only people who really care how they look are the scum. Don't worry about how you look - scumhunt. If the other players don't like your play you'll hear about it. Just re-read the last 10 posts or so for an example

182: good post. A vote, a reason, and logic to boot. 187 undermines it though. What changed in 4 hours that you had to move your vote? Why not vote for iama initially?

hiphop, if the two scum didn't vote yet, they wouldn't be as stupid to bandwagon you. Then we would know exactly who they were.

I never used this term before, but I bleieve that is WIFOM. You won't know what the scum did until they are lynched, or the game is over.

This is not WIFOM, this is logic. If the two scum are not on a wagon already at L-2, they will not be the L-1 and Hammer votes, because those two positions are looked at most carefully on the following days. Yes scum want to kill townies, but getting themselves caught in the process is NOT how it's done.

227: From posts 108/146/182, you understand the concept of the FoS. Why this post saying you'll remember it if you already know what it's for? Again, this seems like you're trying to play the Newbie card.

232: Why are you looking for town approval of when to cast your vote?

246: Answered by almost everyone I believe. Don't try to speculate on the Night actions. THAT is WIFOM.

253: This is a good point against Start.

256: Good rebuttal.

Overall, the vote hopping and the "Newbie card" are making me leery, especially when you have very insightful posts strewn throughout your overall posting for the game.

jeromus/Petunho

:

As stated in a reply to iama, jero was lurky on Day 1. I'm sure as hell not about to hold lurking against anyone after what I've been doing for the last two weeks, so any references to lurking by me for now, please take them with a grain of salt.

Since he asked to be replaced, I don't see this as a sign of him being scum trying to avoid posting, although the vast majority of his posts, looking back, were fluff.

Petunho's intro post was fantastic, and if I didn't look at any other posts by him I would say townish. At the time, the pursuit of Mae was warranted and he kept it up, another point in his favor.

Our beloved IC is coming out really scummy. He didn't contribute at all in the end (okay he got lot of work to do), but also his contribution after the first accusation against Baggy has been pathetic. The most scummy thing is that he didn't gave his vote to nobody.

No, it is NOT a good idea to No Lynch on Day 1, so let's not suggest it.

And still you didn't vote! Having no good candidates is no good excuse for not voting in the last 24 hours, it's only sign of you wanting to keep low profile. For scums it's of course good thing if Town nails a townie without they voting. Why didn't you cast your vote?

I will do a PBPA of everyone within the next 24 hours, since the deadline is near. I'm not going to write a wall of text - I will give a synopsis of my major suspicions with regards to each player.

Still waiting for this one!

Vote: Vel-Rahn Koon

No vote was cast because, literally, I was at work from 8 am until 10 pm that night proctoring the exam and grading it. The day before I spent 7 hours writing the exam, and I was at work until midnight. I had no desire, at all, to check the game. The only Mafia-related activities I did in the 48 hour period leading up to the lynch was check my games for vote counts and update the queue, and I only did those because it's my job on the site and I have to do them. I didn't know who was lynched until Saturday morning when I checked the thread.

For what it's worth, had I been able and willing to get on I would have voted for Mae. That close to the deadline with no clear candidate you are almost always better off lynching

someone

than no one.

Starbuck/Halidon

:

Halidon had one post, so I'm not even going to bother.

56: Initial post has me leaning Town.

118: Aggressiveness is good. I like the post, but I don't get the snarky, sarcastic read from Bouched that Starbuck is talking about here (see above). Therefore I don't know if this is aggressiveness or over-aggressiveness (yes, I'm going to use your own words against you). start pointed out that there was some defense of hiphop going on in his post 159, but I'm also seeing the same sort of thing toward Mae from post 56, and we know she was a Townie. This tends to point more towards the defense of hiphop being a Townie trying to look out for a mislynch rather than scum trying to buddy up to someone. This post gives me pause, but there are later posts that indicate that this may not be over-aggressiveness.

126/141/142: This is in keeping with the initial aggressiveness in 118. Someone said they were against "teaching" others (this is from foggy memory, I can't find the exact post), but I'm ok with a player scumhunting AND teaching at the same time. I certainly didn't get any of this from Bouched's posts, but different people see different things. Starbuck may be onto something, or she may be scum. I agree with start in that I'm having a hard time nailing down an alignment.

160: I like this rebuttal to start's post 159.

167/170: These responses are actually making hiphop look worse.

At the start of Day 2, Starbuck comes right back to hiphop after switching to Mae to secure a lynch for Day 1.

Overall Town read based on all posts made but there are some things that make me pause.

startransmission

:

28: Very strong Town read just from this one post. At the time I was in complete agreement concerning BagSquad. hiphop hasn't done much better.

80: Start notices Mae's lack of content in her posts and her tunnelvision focus. Interesting not because of the post itself, but because at the start of Day 2 (post 253), hiphop uses it as a main point of attack against start, and throws an FoS, not a Vote. This could be start coming back to finish off a potential victim that he started looking at early in the Day. It could also be that start is Town and did actually see something he didn't like in Mae and therefore naturally returned to her at the end of the day. From previous play, I'm leaning towards the latter and also holding this against hiphop for a shady intro into the Day. This looks more like hiphop trying to use start's actions against him for an easy lynch than start trying for an easy lynch on Mae.

159: Analysis of Starbuck is very interesting. I'm not sure that it holds any water, because I happen to agree with iama that if you think someone is town you should defend them. This will require the most looking into.

General Comments

:

I'm cutting this short because it's loooonnnnggggg overdue. I will post this without voting, check the latest votecount, and then make a 2nd post with my vote in it (or FoS if that person is too close to lynching).

As of now, my top two suspects are:

hiphop - see above.

Starbuck - mainly for the hiphop defense, but as iama said if you think someone is town you should defend them. I'm not sure from reading hiphop's PBPA that he is Town, though, which is what's putting Starbuck on this list.

FoS: hiphop

to turn into a vote if he's not already at L-1. I am happy enough with the PBPA and the reread that I feel that hiphop can be put at L-1 at this point. He is by far, to me, the scummiest player still in the game.



Starbuck: Do you still feel on Day 2 the way you felt about hiphop on Day 1, considering everything that has happened since your initial denfense? How do you feel about your initial defense of hiphop, given the suspicions that others have leveled against him?


Hopefully this covers everyone. I WILL be more active from this point on. I had written something up over the Night phase, but I scrapped it and started over with this because I realized that a short PBPA wasn't going to be enough. I had been absent too long and you folks needed something more substantial. Hopefully this starts to make up for being gone. If anyone has any questions please feel free to ask.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

From the last votecount, hiphop is at L-2.

Vote: hiphop

THIS IS L - 1!!!

There is a big discussion going between start and hiphop at this time. Starbuck and Petunho are also asking questions. All of this needs to be resolved before a hammer vote is placed.

There should

NOT

be a hammer vote anytime soon! I debated voting because I didn't want it to distract from the discussion, but I didn't take a stance that was worth a shit on Day 1 and I'm going to take one now.

I do NOT think a claim is in order just yet. I think start, who has been one of the main leads on the hiphop wagon and who I think is Town should be the one to ask for a claim. The claim should be asked, I think, no later than Monday. That would give us two weeks to process the claim and find a new lynch candidate if we decide to believe hiphop.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

hiphop claims, in post 87, that he has played in a couple of theme games on another site. Barring the differences in playstyle between the two sites, hiphop shows a lot of confusion for someone who has a couple of theme games (which typically are more difficult due to extra mechanics).

Actually they were easier. Suspicion was drawn to me, but I would character claim, and they would leave me alone. One person said, ”Once again I think hiphop is town, but it is hard to tell because he acts so scummy.” I was always nk in these games. Being this is the first game that I played in without any CC’s I am learning as I go.

Those are, from what I can tell, advanced mechanics. I'm talking about your seeming lack of general knowledge of how Mafia is played, considering that you've played before. It's like you're playing the Newbie card but you aren't a Newbie. As I said, Mafia is Mafia, and general gameplay should be the same no matter if the game is themed or not, here or on a different site.

165: This is a lot like a person asking a cop to investigate them that night. There's no reason for this. The only people who really care how they look are the scum. Don't worry about how you look - scumhunt. If the other players don't like your play you'll hear about it. Just re-read the last 10 posts or so for an example

I don’t care if someone has a problem with my play style it is how I play. I will keep playing this way.

Then you'll keep getting suspicion heaped on you.

This is not WIFOM, this is logic. If the two scum are not on a wagon already at L-2, they will not be the L-1 and Hammer votes, because those two positions are looked at most carefully on the following days. Yes scum want to kill townies, but getting themselves caught in the process is NOT how it's done.

So by your own logic, I can’t be scum. Smooth. If that isn’t WIFOM this is.

Why not? The assumption you're making is that I think Starbuck is your partner? I don't see it.

232: Why are you looking for town approval of when to cast your vote?

That was me thinking to myself, like you do.

No, thinking to yourself doesn't involve

ASKING THE OTHER PLAYERS WHAT YOU SHOULD DO

.

Overall, the vote hopping and the "Newbie card" are making me leery, especially when you have very insightful posts strewn throughout your overall posting for the game.

The insightful posts came later in the game. I learned that people don't vote hopping, and I should attack with a reason. Do think I am still a newbie?

No I don't think you're a Newbie, I never did. Which is what I have such a problem with. You've been playing the Newbie card a lot. Since I don't think you're a Newbie, then you playing that card is setting off alarm bells. I'm seeing it as you using the Newbie card to cover scummy mistakes, not Newbie mistakes.

Vote: hiphop

THIS IS L - 1!!!

You have logic that says I can’t be scum, and than the vote. Are you not contradicting yourself? Our IC is making mistakes????

This is called an Appeal to Authority with an Appeal to Emotion nicely twisted into it.

IC =/= God, but thanks for the vote of confidence. IC means that I know how the game is played and I'm here to help the newer players by answering theory questions, etc. Read the Being a good IC wiki article, please.

@ Petunho:

Your only piece against me is that I was lurking at the end of yesterday and the beginning of today. Either find something else or get off the horse, because I've given a perfectly viable, and TRUE, explanation for the lurking. Besides, if you're going to hold me accountable as scum based solely on lurking, then you have to do the same thing for Mae, iama, start, jeromus, and BagSquad. All of these players received prods for lurking, in addition to myself. As I said, I'm not proud of it but all I can do is try to make up for it at this point.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

So by your own logic, I can’t be scum. Smooth. If that isn’t WIFOM this is.

Why not? The assumption you're making is that I think Starbuck is your partner? I don't see it.

No the assumption I am making is that you said that in post 265 that scum would not be the L-1 and hammer votes. I made the hammer vote, did I not? Your own logic said scum would not do that.

You're missing the conjunctive phrase AND here. AND implies BOTH. It would be really, really, really stupid for both scum to be the L-1 AND hammer votes. Typically scum try to stay towards the middle of the wagon so as not to draw unnecessary attention to themselves, and being the L-1 or the hammer vote tends to draw attention.

So no, there's nothing in my logic that says that you can't be scum.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Actually, it is 22%. Just because you say you're town doesn't mean anything. In a totally random environment, which is where iama was initially making the statement from, on Day 1 you have a 22% chance of hitting scum.

@all: how do you feel about hiphop's recent arguments? Is he swaying you towards him being town? If not, who do you see as a possible partner? If so, who do you feel we should concentrate on next? We have 13 days left.

I'd like to hear from crazy as well, and bouched. I know bouched is going to be back this week. I doubt Petunho is going to get a post of substance in before the deadline.

I don't see a partner for hiphop, to be honest. Everyone came out against him today.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Sorry guys, I had to go to Florida unexpectedly. My dad's going into the hospital for surgery. I'm going to have limited access until I get back to VA on Tuesday and will only be able to do Modding stuff at night.

Vel

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I'm back in VA. Will have a post covering page 13 in the next 24 hours.

Vel

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I've got a radical theory for you: hiphop and starbuck are scum together.

I don't like hiphop jumping from "Starbuck being the most town, and therefore she should tell me when to claim" to an FoS followed on his very next post by a vote, which coincidentally put Starbuck at L-1.

Why wait to vote on Starbuck? She and start have been pushing your lynch the hardest on Day 2. Here are the Day 2 vote counts:

Day 2, Vote Count #1
hiphop (2) <- startransmission, Starbuck
Vel-Rahn Koon <- Petunho

Not voting: bouchedufou, hiphop, crazypianist1116, Vel-Rahn Koon.

---

Day 2, Vote Count #2
hiphop (2) <- Starbuck, Vel-Rahn Koon
Starbuck (2) <- startransmission, Petunho
startransmission <- hiphop

Not voting: bouchedufou, crazypianist1116.

---

Day 2, Vote Count #3
Starbuck (3) <- startransmission, Petunho, hiphop
hiphop (2) <- Starbuck, Vel-Rahn Koon

Not voting: bouchedufou, crazypianist1116.

start jumped on you from the get go, yet you wait until later in the day to even vote for him? Then when starbuck starts getting votes piled on, you quickly switch over to her. There's also a fabulous bit of buddying towards start in post 300. IIRC, you're the one who said you should use your vote. Why wait until so far into the day, when suspicions are starting to switch, to suddenly use it? I would have thought you would have voted for either start or starbuck within a day or two of the game opening up for Day 2.

The "claim/don't claim" argument is getting us nowhere and I think it needs to be abandoned. Not claiming is suboptimal play, whether you're scum or town. As scum, you want to claim to try to stay alive. As town, you want to claim to try to help convince people you're not scum and that they should look elsewhere. By flat-out refusing to claim you tend to make yourself more of a target, not less because this is a game of suspicions. And again I refuse to believe, after all the crap you went through about your "Newbie card" playing that you didn't understand what claiming means. I would like to hear an explanation for why you didn't claim. At this point, I don't really care about a claim but I would like to hear your reasoning, as you stated in post 324.

I'm ok lynching either one of them to be honest. I'm limiting it to this pair and leaving out hiphop/start because I've gotten more of a Town read on start's posts throughout the game. I'm leaving my vote where it is for now. If need be I will switch it to ensure a lynch when deadline arrives.

I've still got nothing on crazy and bouche, although bouche's posting seems to be getting more coherent and analytical when compared to day 1.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

A Hiphop/Starbuck pair doesn't really make sense- Starbuck was hammering Hiphop quite a bit back in day one. And now Hiphop is hammering Starbuck. One of them being mafia I'd agree with, but both? I don't quite follow your read that they're both mafia.

I don't have another pairing I can find at this point. I proposed it mainly because, if they are pair, Starbuck hammering on hiphop was exactly what she should have done, since hiphop was being scummy. You're sort of implying that they would either ignore one another or defend each other. That's not optimal scum play - if your partner acts scummy, you should attack him and try to get him lynched. This is where the term bussing comes from; it means to throw your partner under a bus, and therefore make yourself look better.

For day 2, when starbuck started getting in trouble and the wagon shifted, hiphop jumped right in when I would have thought that he should have done so much earlier in the day. I would have also expected him to attack start as well. As a hypothetical example, hiphopTown knows he's town, and therefore someone attacking him could possibly be scum, and therefore he should show some type of suspicion in the form of a Vote/FoS. Again I'm going to bring up timing, which was brought up before by start, but it fits. The timing of the attack is off to me. A vote for start, followed by a quick FoS, then vote for starbuck? This looks more like hiphopScum having successfully defended himself, now his partner is in trouble, so he's going to attack her and make himself look fantastic going into the endgame.

As I said, the reason I didn't put start and hiphop together is because start looks town to me. hiphop has interacted with both start and starbuck in a similar manner, but start looks more town as far as my read goes.

I need to read the last few posts again to answer any other questions that may have been posed. I'll make another post tonight (Eastern) after my son is in bed.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

@Vrk- If someone attacks me you are saying I should attack them back? That is OMGUS.

No, OMGUS is attacking someone back with no basis for the attack. The acronym stands for "Oh My God, You Suck", which is hardly a reason to vote for someone.

There was no reason to attack her, so I didn’t. Everybody makes scum tells (some not as many as others), so technically everybody can be attacked. Everybody has a right to attack everybody. If somebody attacks me, does that mean I should attack them. The only person that hasn’t attacked me is Petunho. Technically he did because Jeromus attacked Bagsquad. Are you saying I should attack everybody?

Yet you're perfectly happy throwing a vote on her based on start's early case, with no additional input from yourself? This looks like distancing/bussing to me (see Timing, above).

@bouch Now that I read back, your vote on me seems the same as my vote on Mae. Strange how nobody attacks you for it.

@Starbuck @your 348 post- way to seem active.

@town- you lynch me, I flip town, what would you do? This is who I find scummiest

vote:startransmission

Now start is scummiest because.....?????

56 minutes or so until deadline, I'm keeping my vote where it is.

RE: 354:

We should only focus on people who are tied together? Why? When is it a number one priority of scum to link themselves together? To be honest, it would be more beneficial from a Mafia PoV for the scum to link themselves to as many

townies

as possible so that if they do get taken down, there are more people to look at as possible partners.

And you saying "I'm not scum" over and over again isn't good enough.

@start, for 353: it's a theory. I don't have anything better.

@crazy, 355: Please, don't answer for others. It's only been said now twice.

speaking in the hypothetical: IF you are town, I don't necessarily think both scum are on your wagon. You've been scummy enough on your own yesterday and today that both scum wouldn't need to be on your wagon to secure a lynch - almost everyone here has voiced suspicion of you. There's only two scum in those 6 players and we only need 4 votes.

[sarcasm]

Since I think you're scum though, I'm pretty sure both scum are NOT on your wagon, unless of course you'd like to hammer yourself.

[/sarcasm]

363/364: I said I'd be here to secure a lynch if necessary, and I'm leaving my vote as is. As of now, there will be a No Lynch in 40 minutes if we don't get one more vote.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

@hiphop:

speaking in the hypothetical: IF you are town, I don't necessarily think both scum are on your wagon. You've been scummy enough on your own yesterday and today that both scum wouldn't need to be on your wagon to secure a lynch - almost everyone here has voiced suspicion of you. There's only two scum in those 6 players and we only need 4 votes.

You've been scummy enough that it wouldn't surprise me to learn that no scum were on your wagon. Again, IF you're town.

EBWOP:

Added in the Red text.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Sorry guys I need a day or so. I was down in NC Friday looking for a new house and I am not back yet mentally. I am going to do game Mod stuff tonight and read over things.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Sorry, I'm here. FYI: I am moving at the end of the month, and I may need to be replaced if I can't get internet access. No worries for now, but it could be an issue later.

I am with start in that starbuck is probably one of our scum. The switch to mae seems to be a switch of convenience to ensure a lynch, no matter how you try to spin it ("she was my 2nd target").

but who is number two? I was thinking start is probably town, but I'm not terribly excited by the fact that he's drumming up accusations against starbuck (piggybacking) and then can't or won't provide examples. Either respond to starbuck's request or come up with a better argument - this is something you're accusing starbuck of doing, yet you're doing it yourself. You're also using a subtle Appeal to Emotion with 384.

The opening sentence of 378 would tend to be a null-tell, given that we now know that hiphop is Town, so why bring it up? And the rest of the case is you saying she piggy backed against the two easiest players. Would you have voted for anyone different? I 100% agree with your 299 - the timing of the vote switch was WAY wrong, and she was called out on it by petunho and yourself.

But, I don't see how you can call any of 378 a case. Therefore I'm going to throw out another radical idea for a pair -

starbuck and start

. That's a very very VERY weak "case", to be honest. It looks good on the surface, but it's got no substance. Starbuck formulated her own ideas from what I see; I don't see piggybacking. And really, she went after the people who were scummiest at the time, just like the rest of us. The one big point you have against starbuck, which I whoeheartedly agree with, is that she switched her vote to Mae at the end of Day 1, and it looks very, very, very opportunistic. For that one reason I see starbuck as being probable scum. But there are two left. You're formulation of this "case" is making me lean towards you as the other. You and starbuck being buddies also means that you can feel free to throw that vote in LyLo, knowing with full confidence that there's no way for a scum quicklynch, and setting yourself up for a great endgame after a huge bus.

I would like to hear bouched and crazy take stances and formulate their own opinions, and not just piggy back in here. Both of you have given very little insight into your thought processes and opinions, and that needs to stop today so we can win this game. It is most likely that one or both of you is going to end up being in the endgame - if we don't get opinions out of you today that help us determine alignment it could be used as a possible point against you tomorrow.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

@ start: I'm digesting your response. I'll post more later, but before I say anything else I want opinions from our mystery guests.

As an observation, is it worth pointing out that Startransmission was the only active player here? Now, I understand that VRK's busy, but in a situation like this, normally, do scum post a lot/less, or is there not pattern here? Because Starbuck seems to not be posting much. And crazy and me

are pretty much posting fluff

, atm.

The question you're asking is a good one, but it comes down to a player's meta (meta = metagaming. If you've ever played a Pen and Pencil RPG before you'll understand the term, if not, click here). Different players will act differently in the various Mafia roles, and you're going to need to read other games to get a meta on those players to answer that question.

What do you think of start's case?

What do you think of starbuck's response?

What do you think of my whacko scenario?

Your opinion is

vital

to the game, especially in the end stages of days 3 and 4. You don't have to be perfect, but you do have to participate. This is a Newbie game so that you can practice. You've now got 2+ "days" of stuff to look back and see the type of questions you should be asking. If you need to, just start with the three questions I've posted above and answer them. But don't just give one liners - let us see your thought processes.

If you think any/all of us are full of shit, then SAY SO!!! If you read something and think "well that's crap" then by all means, post why! Shooting holes in someone's logic will only help by 1) forcing them to refocus their efforts, 2) abandon the questioning and maybe realize they're tunneling/off base, or 3) expose a possible scum (yourself or the person you're questioning).

Come up with your own theory if you have one. But do something other than fluffpost. You are not helping your team out, whichever team that is. If you're scum, you're making yourself a target by fence-sitting and not giving an opinion. If you're town, you're making yourself an easy target for a mislynch. This is why it's vital for everyone to post, especially scum. Scum are damned if you do, damned if you don't in this game. Either you don't post and you get painted as a lurker, or you do post and potentially give something away. It's not perfect, but it's the best theoretical line under which the game operates.

Crazy, same for you. Sorry about your teeth - that sucks. Hope you feel better soon and get something posted.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

You forgot to send me a PM Elmo.

Sorry guys weekends are taken with packing. I need to respond to start.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Sorry guys, but I've requested a replacement.

I am trying to tie up all the loose ends at work and I am packing at nights. I just don't have time to devote to the game.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Absolutely horrible play from me, sorry guys. I didn't make any excuses just to lurk, I really did have a lot of issues.

I thought starbuck's biggest mistake was when she made the quick jump to mae on Day 1. Then Petunho brought it up and I thought for sure she was a goner. Between that and the woefully inadequate amount of time I was able to give to the game I was sure the scum team was going to lose.

Kills were based on who we thought were most likely power roles. I pegged BagSquad for a Noobie Cop, so he was the block target for Night 1. iama was killed to lessen the number of experienced players in the game.

Night 2 the kill went through for the same reason as Night 1, but I don't remember who we blocked. I think the block was on crazy, but it was just a tossup IIRC.

I'm really sorry to everyone for my inability to give the game my attention. If I remember anything else play-wise I'll post later.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Last Post.