Newbie 817 (Game over!)

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

unvote

Don't have time atm for a post of substance. Hopefully in the next 24-48 hours.

[Elmo]

Day 1, Vote Count #6

hiphop (2) <- crazypianist1116, bouchedufou
startransmission <- iamausername
bouchedufou <- hiphop

Not voting: Starbuck, Maemuki, jeromus, startransmission, Vel-Rahn Koon.

The

deadline

is Friday, 14th August 22:00 UTC, which is 7 days, 19 hours and 43 minutes from this post. If deadline hits, there will be No Lynch.
With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch.

[startransmission]

I'm a little peeved at this latest prod. Frankly, this went from a very promising game to a fucking wash. Once people stop arguing semantics about when people should be replaced and start asking real questions my interest will be revived. Many of you (our IC included) seem to be content with waiting for answers to outdated questions. Or arguing about things that have nothing to do with finding and lynching scum.

So- if you feel that I'm being "overly aggressive" or "snarky" then mop up your tears and deal with it. This game needs some balls, and if I'm lynched for providing them then so be it. I'll post my analysis of all current and past players within the next few hours.

[hiphop]

I'm a little peeved at this latest prod. Frankly, this went from a very promising game to a fucking wash. Once people stop arguing semantics about when people should be replaced and start asking real questions my interest will be revived. Many of you (our IC included) seem to be content with waiting for answers to outdated questions. Or arguing about things that have nothing to do with finding and lynching scum.

So- if you feel that I'm being "overly aggressive" or "snarky" then mop up your tears and deal with it. This game needs some balls, and if I'm lynched for providing them then so be it. I'll post my analysis of all current and past players within the next few hours.

I agree with you. The whole point of the game is to find scum. Otherwise why do we play? Starbuck I would rather have the beginners learn, not by you poking holes in their logic, but by having them deal with problems that they created. Let them learn, and me, as the game goes on. If you think someone is scum attack them not someone who you believe is town, let the somebody who actually believes he is scum attack him.

@Startransmission I would love for your analysis, and you being "overly aggressiveness" would help out the game greatly. I believe we should all be more aggressive.

[Starbuck]

I'm a little peeved at this latest prod. Frankly, this went from a very promising game to a fucking wash. Once people stop arguing semantics about when people should be replaced and start asking real questions my interest will be revived. Many of you (our IC included) seem to be content with waiting for answers to outdated questions. Or arguing about things that have nothing to do with finding and lynching scum.

So- if you feel that I'm being "overly aggressive" or "snarky" then mop up your tears and deal with it. This game needs some balls, and if I'm lynched for providing them then so be it. I'll post my analysis of all current and past players within the next few hours.

I agree with you. The whole point of the game is to find scum. Otherwise why do we play? Starbuck I would rather have the beginners learn, not by you poking holes in their logic, but by having them deal with problems that they created. Let them learn, and me, as the game goes on. If you think someone is scum attack them not someone who you believe is town, let the somebody who actually believes he is scum attack him.

@Startransmission I would love for your analysis, and you being "overly aggressiveness" would help out the game greatly. I believe we should all be more aggressive.

Yes, people have been waiting, but I haven't been. I've been continuously posting and asking questions.

The point of Mafia is to find scum. The point of Newbie games is to help Newbies get used to playing Mafia. So you want those of us that are more experienced to just not say anything when we see a faulty logic? We shouldn't point it out and say why it's faulty? If you noticed, Bouched was targeting the lurkers and replacements, rather than making actual cases, which was the whole reason why we were discussing the prod.

I didn't want to argue about semantics, but it was brought up that I was contradicting myself. So I showed that I did my homework before asking for a prod. Was I not supposed to do that? Was I supposed to let something as stupid as a prod possibly be used as a case?

I have asked plenty of questions of Bouched. Now I have found that Maemuki really hasn't added anything at all to the game.

Hiphop, please list examples how I am poking holes. That's quite a scummy accusation when you have nothing to back it up.

[hiphop]

I was referring to bouched. You found faulty logic with bouched, so that is what I was refering to when I said "poking holes".

[Starbuck]

I was referring to bouched. You found faulty logic with bouched, so that is what I was refering to when I said "poking holes".

More accusations but no proof.

[startransmission]

My analysis will have to wait for a bit due to time constraints. Sorry for the delay.

[iamausername]

Iamausername - What do you think of the 3 votes on hiphop? Do you think he's worthy of them?

VRK's vote was presumably just a BagSquad remnant, since he's unvoted now, so that one was definitely warranted.

I don't think any of the points you presented in Post #100 were particularly valid, with the possible exception of "It really seems as if you're just jumping on iamusername's wagon".

bouched's vote, pretty much the same. The way hiphop followed me onto startran was maybe a little suspicious, but otherwise, I don't think there's much of a case there.

First of all, why is everybody becoming inactive? Is it because they are not interested in the game?

I don't know about anyone else, but I don't have any internet at home right now, so I can't get online very often. I'll be a lot more active once I've got that resolved, which hopefully won't take too long.

I say we wait a bit more, but if we wait too much, deadline comes...

I'll wait and see.

This is very unlikely to help. Let's pretend that the deadline is coming up in a few hours. What would you do? Who would you vote?

That's probably a good question for everyone who isn't voting right now to answer, actually.

[startransmission]

Starbuck

Here's where I'm the most undecided. A good player, who has been active since replacing in for Halidon. Reading back through has given me some pause however. She subbed in while Bag was under fire, and was soon to be replaced himself. In her opening analysis she expressed the opinion that Bag was probably town. At the time I wasn't willing to argue with her, I was suspecting the same thing (don't get too excited iamausersname, Bag was still my top scum pick at that time). It's when Hiphop replaces in that a few things start to bug me.

@hiphop - Something I do any time I replace into a game is an analysis of my predecessor's posts along with a synopsis of the game. While you really only have like 3 posts of his to analyze, it's good to point them out.

This seems like advice from one scumbuddy to another, albeit good advice. I myself asked hiphop for his analysis of Bag and other players. Still, after brushing off Bags potential guilt, this sticks out to me.

I just don't like to assume that someone's scum based on the fact that he just doesn't care about the game at all, which Bag did not care. It sucks for hiphop to have to take over for such a shitty player. I know that I will not hold him accountable for BagSquad's actions.

Again, I agree in principle, as I myself unvoted hiphop when he came into the game. He did not deserve Bags votes. But this does seem like one more instance of assuming that Bag was innocent, and therefore giving hiphop an entirely clean slate.

When looked at one post at a time there is nothing scummy about what Starbuck is saying or doing. In fact I give her credit for being consistent. Taken together though, and maybe I'm looking too hard, I do get the impression of her taking hiphop under her wing.

Her debate with bouchedufou has given me further pause. Post 118 stands out especially. She says she detects sarcasm from bouche, where I see none. She (yet again) defends hiphop

Why do you think he's trying too hard? He walked into a horrible situation when he replaced Bag. What would you do if you were in his position?

Assumes he is town and defends his vote

I think you are being very vindictive because he is now voting for you. It seems as though you are overreacting because he found you out.

And then shoots down Bouches opinion on hiphops value as a voter...

It seems that hiphop senses that he found scum and is therefore voting for the scummiest player in his eyes, which is what a person should do. You are accusing him of randomly voting around. His vote on you isn't at all random.

When in fact hiphop has thrown his vote at everybody who engages him in debate.

Also, hiphop wasn't my main suspicion at the time- I was more worried about Jeromus because of his fewer posts due to recharging problems.

You seem to continuously be concerned with those who are not posting as much. That's quite a tunnel vision you have going there. While lurking can be a scum tell, lurking should not be the only thing you are focused on.

I do agree that lurking should not be the only thing people are focused on, but it is something to be concerned about. I don't see how you can criticize somebody for being suspicious with lurkers, especially active lurkers like Jeromus.

@Starbuck I know it seems like I'm picking on you and building a case, but it just so happens that I have time for just one analysis today. My weekend is just hours away, and I'll get to everybody else.

[Starbuck]

Starbuck

Here's where I'm the most undecided. A good player, who has been active since replacing in for Halidon. Reading back through has given me some pause however. She subbed in while Bag was under fire, and was soon to be replaced himself. In her opening analysis she expressed the opinion that Bag was probably town. At the time I wasn't willing to argue with her, I was suspecting the same thing (don't get too excited iamausersname, Bag was still my top scum pick at that time). It's when Hiphop replaces in that a few things start to bug me.

@hiphop - Something I do any time I replace into a game is an analysis of my predecessor's posts along with a synopsis of the game. While you really only have like 3 posts of his to analyze, it's good to point them out.

This seems like advice from one scumbuddy to another, albeit good advice. I myself asked hiphop for his analysis of Bag and other players. Still, after brushing off Bags potential guilt, this sticks out to me.

My first question is where did I brush off Bag's potential guilt? Bag didn't add anything to the game as he didn't care. Out of 9 people and 2 scum, he has a better ratio of being town than scum, and that's just common sense and the reason why I said he's probably town.

If you go back and look at any of my completed games that I have replaced into (all listed in my Wiki), you will notice that I do the same thing every time I replace in. I analyze the game to that point and I also make sure to analyze my predecessor's posts. Since hiphop is fairly new, I wanted to give him that piece of advice, because I've seen where replacements don't analyze their predecessor's posts and it ends up biting them in the ass. If he makes himself scummy after that (which imho he has), then it's all on him.

I just don't like to assume that someone's scum based on the fact that he just doesn't care about the game at all, which Bag did not care. It sucks for hiphop to have to take over for such a shitty player. I know that I will not hold him accountable for BagSquad's actions.

Again, I agree in principle, as I myself unvoted hiphop when he came into the game. He did not deserve Bags votes. But this does seem like one more instance of assuming that Bag was innocent, and therefore giving hiphop an entirely clean slate.

I honestly don't see this. I will say it again, Bag did not care about the game and made that blatantly obvious. If Bag was in anyway scummy, I definitely would not suggest giving his replacement a clean slate. It's up to hiphop to dig himself out of the hole that Bag dug, and since most votes were on Bag due to inactivity, I thought that it would be fair.

When looked at one post at a time there is nothing scummy about what Starbuck is saying or doing. In fact I give her credit for being consistent. Taken together though, and maybe I'm looking too hard, I do get the impression of her taking hiphop under her wing.

I really was not trying to do this. Since I am an SE (more or less), I have been trying to help those newer players get used to the way things are normally done here on Mafiascum. When I first started here, I got stuck with IC's and SE's that really didn't want to help orientate newbies. I also was not trying to have a debate with bouched. I was trying to get him to focus on others (rather than lurkers and replacements) that quite possibly could be scum. He was tunneling very hard. I hope his latest silence is due to the fact that he's re-reading and trying to come up with some better cases.

Her debate with bouchedufou has given me further pause. Post 118 stands out especially. She says she detects sarcasm from bouche, where I see none. She (yet again) defends hiphop

Why do you think he's trying too hard? He walked into a horrible situation when he replaced Bag. What would you do if you were in his position?

Assumes he is town and defends his vote

I think you are being very vindictive because he is now voting for you. It seems as though you are overreacting because he found you out.

And then shoots down Bouches opinion on hiphops value as a voter...

It seems that hiphop senses that he found scum and is therefore voting for the scummiest player in his eyes, which is what a person should do. You are accusing him of randomly voting around. His vote on you isn't at all random.

When in fact hiphop has thrown his vote at everybody who engages him in debate.

If you noticed during your analysis, I did say that hiphop's vote was rather scummy. He listed a reason but not that great of a reason. As I have said earlier, Bouched has been going after replacements and lurkers. With the situation that hiphop walked into, he would have to try very hard to get others to change their opinion of him/Bag. I don't see how that first quote is me assuming that he's town and defending his vote. I asked Bouched what he would do if he was in that situation. You strawmanned that quite heartily.

Bouched voted for hiphop after hiphop voted for him with barely any reason. That is textbook OMGUS. I did not shoot down his opinion, if that's the way he feels then so be it, but it's not a strong leg to stand on.

Also, hiphop wasn't my main suspicion at the time- I was more worried about Jeromus because of his fewer posts due to recharging problems.

You seem to continuously be concerned with those who are not posting as much. That's quite a tunnel vision you have going there. While lurking can be a scum tell, lurking should not be the only thing you are focused on.

I do agree that lurking should not be the only thing people are focused on, but it is something to be concerned about. I don't see how you can criticize somebody for being suspicious with lurkers, especially active lurkers like Jeromus.

@Starbuck I know it seems like I'm picking on you and building a case, but it just so happens that I have time for just one analysis today. My weekend is just hours away, and I'll get to everybody else.

I am suspicious of lurkers as well, but they aren't my only focus as they are with Bouched. It's why I asked earlier if Jeromus was getting replaced with someone who can actively take part. If you can't take part or know that you have limited access, imho you should not sign up for a game like this that requires your time and effort to complete. And that's out of respect to the other players.

[hiphop]

@Starbuck I wasn’t accusing you. I was just wondering if you find school fun. School is where people are lectured. To me that is boring, and games are supposed to be fun. If nobody follows bouched’s logic, shouldn’t that be an explanation enough, that his point is wrong. If he realizes this he will change anyways. Faulty logic, holes in text, they are the same thing to me.

I agree about your view on Jeromus. Every person should make at least one relevant post every 72 hours.

My reason is better than nothing for my vote. Since nobody is voting for the player I suspect the most, I voted for him. You haven’t even voted yet, so apparently you don’t see any incriminating evidence so far for a vote.

[bouchedufou]

Erk, sorry Starbuck, I'm afraid my silence recently was mainly due to going down skiing for the weekend, and not because I was analysing the previous posts. Although since you pointed it out, I have been trying to spot anything suspicious.

For now I think I've been writing too much about nothing, and wait and see the evaluations of everybody else. I'll be here if anyone wants to ask any questions though.
@Starbuck, I thought I answered your questions in post 123, and read over most of your posts, but if you feel there's anything I wasn't being clear, or missed out, just ask me.

[crazypianist1116]

Still waiting for Jeromus and VRK to make substantial posts. Also Maemuki.

To all: If you had to lynch someone right now, who would it be?

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

And finally, Vel-Rahn Koon:
Your posts haven't really offered much insight into the game itself, you have been mainly asking questions rather than commenting on other people's play. Does your vote for hiphop hold or is that a vote for BagSquad? If you intend to keep your vote on hiphop, why so? Do you think that Bouchedufou's vote on hiphop is a good vote? How about mine? What do you think of other people's play?

Mod: 72 hours since Maemuki startransmission and iamausername's last posts?

I'm asking questions to get a handle on other people's alignments. I ask questions to see why people are doing what they're doing. What commentary on play should I be making? People can fend for themselves, and if they post something ill-thought-out then it gives us more information to work with. If something doesn't sound right to me, I question the specific action with as neutral a tone as possible to avoid giving clues as to the answer I'm looking for. We've got plenty of rope; may as well let people use it.

Obviously the vote on hiphop was a hold over, or else I wouldn't have unvoted, so that's taken care of itself. I left it there because I didn't have anywhere else to put it.

I'm much happier with your vote on hiphop than bouche's vote. The logic seems to be more sound in your case, but in either case I think that hiphop is looking more townish so I think the votes are in the wrong place. My biggest suspicions at the moment are on bouche and Mae, the first for seeming to be a bit panicky the second for going with the flow and not offering anything worthwhile. Both of these could be attributed to Newbieness so I'm not voting for now.

I've got Town vibes off some of the players, but honestly I don't like saying who I find Town and who I don't - I feel that it helps the Mafia make up their mind about who to NK.

If I

had

to lynch someone right now it would be bouche, followed closely by Mae. He (gender ?) has had several people push against him, and knowing his alignment would help lead us to other potential suspects. Mae's lynch wouldn't help get us much more information like bouche's could potentially get us, but the active lurking is not helping get a handle on alignment. Good question crazy - do you have an opinion as well to add?

[hiphop]

Startransmission-Why did you only do Starbuck? I kind of want you to do me as well. I want to see what kind of impression I am making, being this is my first game at mafiascum. Maybe a few others that are suspicious to you as well, if you have time.

As for if I had to lynch someone, I would lynch bouched, the person who I am voting for, otherwise why would I vote for him in the first place?

[Maemuki]

Sorry guys - my internet connection was kinda dead yesterday.

Well.

The person that I think that's most suspicious now is bouche. As Starbuck said, he only targets replacements and lurkers - the easiest targets. (at least the lurkers part.) Hiphop seems pretty much a townie to me, crazypianist too, Starbuck too. Vel-Rahn Koon too - a bit less. Bouche is really the person that I'm looking at the most right now. About iamusername, jeromus, and startransmission...Those are the ones I'm less certain about....But, between them, I think that startransmission is the less suspicious.

And no, this still isn't my post with substance. I would like it to be, but...I don't have time right now. I'll try to do it today, but I won't promise anything.

[Starbuck]

@hiphop - Just where was I lecturing? Part of playing a game like this is to point out faulty logic, and not to just let it slide. I find it odd that you, being so recently near the chopping block, would propose something as audacious as this. As VRK said, if someone posts something that isn't well thought out, it gives us more information to work with. So according to you, we shouldn't point out faulty logic because it should be explanation enough, rather than it could quite possibly be a scum tell?

Also you shouldn't assume in this game either, just because I haven't voted yet, doesn't mean I don't have my suspicions. I would like to have the active lurkers weigh in a bit more.



@bouched - Thank you for trying. I really wasn't saying you were a bad player as others have tried to allude to. It just seemed you were rushing through posts rather than taking your time.

[bouchedufou]

Ugh. Correct me if I'm getting this all confused, but what I'm reading from VKR's post is that I'm most likely to be lynched at this point because I've been an idiot, sticking my neck out a fair bit. Ergo, quite a few people have posted their opinions on me, and so I'll provide more information if I get lynched than anyone else? Bugger.

So, er, are there any tips/hints as to how to tease out information without making yourself a good guy to lynch?

Also, since quite a few people out there have stated that they think hiphop is not scum, and I really don't have anything to go against him, other than my gut, which apparently is compromised, should I unvote?

Finally, @hiphop, care to share your reason for voting me? Other than that you felt I was targeting you, and targeting me back would be a way to get people off your back?

[hiphop]

you shouldn't assume in this game either, just because I haven't voted yet, doesn't mean I don't have my suspicions. I would like to have the active lurkers weigh in a bit more.

That is the problem, why should they weigh in, if you are not? Your suspicions make them post. The reason this game is slow is because nobody finds a reason to weigh in. "I do not want to tip off the scum, so I won't weigh in." is what I get off of vrk. Somebody must weigh in, and throw suspicion around. I have news for you. The scum already know everything the town knows. In fact they have an advantage, being they know who they are and who we are. So vrk, I would appreciate if you let a little more info leak out. We beginner players may not see everything you seem, so we have even more of a disadvantage.

@bouched You want me to give a reason? Fine. My reason is this you are attacking(right nor or then) me and Jeromus. Lurkers, replacements. Everybody hates lurkers, so if you were scum you can find an easy target. The only reason you stopped, because Starbuck said something. Scum are like that. They prey on the weaklings of the town, hoping people will follow them. If people follow them the scum blend in with the crowd.

Second you overreact. Almost as if you are trying so hard to be town, that you can't see any reason how somebody can suspect you. The only reason to try to be town is if you are scum. I don't know if that points to scum, or your personality, but we will see. Unlike the lurkers you have made several posts, I can wait for them, but that doesn't mean I can't suspect you now.

[Starbuck]

Where have I not weighed in? You are strawmanning quite a bit here, hiphop.

[iamausername]

If I

had

to lynch someone right now it would be bouche, followed closely by Mae. He (gender ?) has had several people push against him, and knowing his alignment would help lead us to other potential suspects. Mae's lynch wouldn't help get us much more information like bouche's could potentially get us, but the active lurking is not helping get a handle on alignment. Good question crazy - do you have an opinion as well to add?

I don't see that knowing bouched's alignment would be particularly more helpful than knowing anyone else's, and I don't like this as a reason to support his lynch at all. Lynching someone because "it will be useful to know their alignment" is a good line for scum to push, because no one can say they were wrong if the player in question turns up town.

Do you think Mae's lurking has been more egregious than jeromus?

---

Lynches I would support at the moment:

jeromus
VRK
startrans

in that order.

Unvote, Vote: jeromus

[hiphop]

I don't see that knowing bouched's alignment would be particularly more helpful than knowing anyone else's, and I don't like this as a reason to support his lynch at all. Lynching someone because "it will be useful to know their alignment" is a good line for scum to push, because no one can say they were wrong if the player in question turns up town.

Do you think Mae's lurking has been more egregious than jeromus?

---

Lynches I would support at the moment:

jeromus
VRK
startrans

in that order.

Unvote, Vote: jeromus

Why do you not vote for vrk instead if you think the vrk push is something a scum would pull? Lurkers don’t always have to be scum. Although it does bother me that he has time to answer the prod yet not make a substantial post at least once in a while.

[Elmo]

Sending jeromus an inquisitive PM.

[startransmission]

Startransmission-Why did you only do Starbuck? I kind of want you to do me as well. I want to see what kind of impression I am making, being this is my first game at mafiascum. Maybe a few others that are suspicious to you as well, if you have time.

Yeah, I plan to. Hopefully before the damn deadline passes.