Newbie 817 (Game over!)

[Petunho]

@Crazy: Quit answering on other peoples' half!

This wasn't the first time. If you really want to answer, do it after the person who's accused has answered first.

Quit it!

[startransmission]

Thanks crazypianist1116 I needed that.

How does that affect your arguments with me?

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

hiphop claims, in post 87, that he has played in a couple of theme games on another site. Barring the differences in playstyle between the two sites, hiphop shows a lot of confusion for someone who has a couple of theme games (which typically are more difficult due to extra mechanics).

Actually they were easier. Suspicion was drawn to me, but I would character claim, and they would leave me alone. One person said, ”Once again I think hiphop is town, but it is hard to tell because he acts so scummy.” I was always nk in these games. Being this is the first game that I played in without any CC’s I am learning as I go.

Those are, from what I can tell, advanced mechanics. I'm talking about your seeming lack of general knowledge of how Mafia is played, considering that you've played before. It's like you're playing the Newbie card but you aren't a Newbie. As I said, Mafia is Mafia, and general gameplay should be the same no matter if the game is themed or not, here or on a different site.

165: This is a lot like a person asking a cop to investigate them that night. There's no reason for this. The only people who really care how they look are the scum. Don't worry about how you look - scumhunt. If the other players don't like your play you'll hear about it. Just re-read the last 10 posts or so for an example

I don’t care if someone has a problem with my play style it is how I play. I will keep playing this way.

Then you'll keep getting suspicion heaped on you.

This is not WIFOM, this is logic. If the two scum are not on a wagon already at L-2, they will not be the L-1 and Hammer votes, because those two positions are looked at most carefully on the following days. Yes scum want to kill townies, but getting themselves caught in the process is NOT how it's done.

So by your own logic, I can’t be scum. Smooth. If that isn’t WIFOM this is.

Why not? The assumption you're making is that I think Starbuck is your partner? I don't see it.

232: Why are you looking for town approval of when to cast your vote?

That was me thinking to myself, like you do.

No, thinking to yourself doesn't involve

ASKING THE OTHER PLAYERS WHAT YOU SHOULD DO

.

Overall, the vote hopping and the "Newbie card" are making me leery, especially when you have very insightful posts strewn throughout your overall posting for the game.

The insightful posts came later in the game. I learned that people don't vote hopping, and I should attack with a reason. Do think I am still a newbie?

No I don't think you're a Newbie, I never did. Which is what I have such a problem with. You've been playing the Newbie card a lot. Since I don't think you're a Newbie, then you playing that card is setting off alarm bells. I'm seeing it as you using the Newbie card to cover scummy mistakes, not Newbie mistakes.

Vote: hiphop

THIS IS L - 1!!!

You have logic that says I can’t be scum, and than the vote. Are you not contradicting yourself? Our IC is making mistakes????

This is called an Appeal to Authority with an Appeal to Emotion nicely twisted into it.

IC =/= God, but thanks for the vote of confidence. IC means that I know how the game is played and I'm here to help the newer players by answering theory questions, etc. Read the Being a good IC wiki article, please.

@ Petunho:

Your only piece against me is that I was lurking at the end of yesterday and the beginning of today. Either find something else or get off the horse, because I've given a perfectly viable, and TRUE, explanation for the lurking. Besides, if you're going to hold me accountable as scum based solely on lurking, then you have to do the same thing for Mae, iama, start, jeromus, and BagSquad. All of these players received prods for lurking, in addition to myself. As I said, I'm not proud of it but all I can do is try to make up for it at this point.

[hiphop]

How does that affect your arguments with me?

Let’s see…
I did hammer, but I take the same stance that imausername did at the end of post 181 and what you said in post 17 that a lynch is better than no lynch.

If it comes down to a choice between lynching

anyone

and lynching no one, I will vote to lynch someone.

I still don’t get why you didn’t attack VRK like you did to Mae. Can’t you attack two people at once or is this impossible for you? There is always a FOS, which you seem to say in post 215 to use, which you don’t seem to use. I still don’t like your justification. Since the term hammering does not mean what I thought it meant, I would of attacked Vrk like I did to Mae hoping he would post something if he had replied to my post 227.

@VRk First game mod left in the middle, second replaced in at the last lynch, third game died first night. In none of these games, I never heard of FOS, hammer, OMGUS vote, etc. I doubt that most of those players even knew what they meant. I couldn’t FOS someone, so in those games I threw around my vote. As for keeping the suspicions on me I think it makes the game more fun. I don’t like me targeting other people, so I let other people target me, this way the game isn’t so boring. Either way, I can scumhunt with their arguments against me or their arguments against someone else.

So by your own logic, I can’t be scum. Smooth. If that isn’t WIFOM this is.

Why not? The assumption you're making is that I think Starbuck is your partner? I don't see it.

No the assumption I am making is that you said that in post 265 that scum would not be the L-1 and hammer votes. I made the hammer vote, did I not? Your own logic said scum would not do that.

I didn’t see this question in post 265 so I will answer it now.

182: good post. A vote, a reason, and logic to boot. 187 undermines it though. What changed in 4 hours that you had to move your vote? Why not vote for iama initially?

As I explained in 193, I made my post against Mae in 182. I went to bed thinking about iama’s post. I figured out how I respond to it. I became scared and I was afraid that I would be lynched by morning without making my suspicions known. Once I am lynched I won’t have a say. I didn’t have a response for his post at the time of 182, yet I still suspected him to think about the post.

Just a quickie to stay in the game. I'd like to keep voting for hiphop from the day so far, but obviously I can't.

Let me get this straight, you wanted to keep your vote on me from the first day, yet for some odd reason you didn't do that in your first post of the second day. Why? Is it because of the recent arguments and you want to follow everybody else? If that is so why didn't you say something about that in this post? If iama hadn't said that you showed signs of being a newbie townie, and being iama is now a known town, I would still have suspicions of you. So now I can accept the arguments of an experienced known town and say you are probably town as well.

[Starbuck]

hiphop, did you manage to forget that iamausername is dead?

[hiphop]

Where did I imply that he wasn't?

[bouchedufou]

@hiphop. Since the day before, I've been suspicious toward you because of a feeling that you're protesting your innocence too much. But on day 1, everyone thought that opinion wasn't valid. At the beginning of day 2, I also felt that you were trying too hard not to seem town. Also, I thought that votes carried on from the day before.

[q]No the assumption I am making is that you said that in post 265 that scum would not be the L-1 and hammer votes. I made the hammer vote, did I not? Your own logic said scum would not do that.[/q]
It's not your hammer vote that's suspicious, but rather that you said so much stuff before you voted.

[Starbuck]

Where did I imply that he wasn't?

You quoted him and then asked him a question.

[hiphop]

@hiphop. Since the day before, I've been suspicious toward you because of a feeling that you're protesting your innocence too much. But on day 1, everyone thought that opinion wasn't valid. At the beginning of day 2, I also felt that you were trying too hard not to seem town. Also, I thought that votes carried on from the day before.

Second to last sentence I think you mistyped. To me it reads that I am trying to be scum. Your first sentence never did make sense to me ever. I don't get why someone should try to be town. Everybody is human. We all are going to act like humans, whether we are scum or not. I never tried to act like a townie, I act like a human.

Now you know that votes do not carry.

[q]No the assumption I am making is that you said that in post 265 that scum would not be the L-1 and hammer votes. I made the hammer vote, did I not? Your own logic said scum would not do that.[/q]
It's not your hammer vote that's suspicious, but rather that you said so much stuff before you voted.

It's

not [q]. Everybody says "stuff" before they vote. You said "stuff" before your first vote. The "stuff" leads up to the vote. It's the logic behind the "stuff" that is important. I already explained in post 262 why I said so much "stuff" before I voted. You don't need to follow my logic, but it makes sense to me.

[hiphop]

Where did I imply that he wasn't?

You quoted him and then asked him a question.

Sorry about the way it is worded. I quoted him and asked startransmission a question.

[Starbuck]

Bouched, when someone is lynched and we go into night all the votes from the previous day reset.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

So by your own logic, I can’t be scum. Smooth. If that isn’t WIFOM this is.

Why not? The assumption you're making is that I think Starbuck is your partner? I don't see it.

No the assumption I am making is that you said that in post 265 that scum would not be the L-1 and hammer votes. I made the hammer vote, did I not? Your own logic said scum would not do that.

You're missing the conjunctive phrase AND here. AND implies BOTH. It would be really, really, really stupid for both scum to be the L-1 AND hammer votes. Typically scum try to stay towards the middle of the wagon so as not to draw unnecessary attention to themselves, and being the L-1 or the hammer vote tends to draw attention.

So no, there's nothing in my logic that says that you can't be scum.

[startransmission]

How does that affect your arguments with me?

Let’s see…
I did hammer, but I take the same stance that imausername did at the end of post 181 and what you said in post 17 that a lynch is better than no lynch.

If it comes down to a choice between lynching

anyone

and lynching no one, I will vote to lynch someone.

I still don’t get why you didn’t attack VRK like you did to Mae. Can’t you attack two people at once or is this impossible for you? There is always a FOS, which you seem to say in post 215 to use, which you don’t seem to use. I still don’t like your justification. Since the term hammering does not mean what I thought it meant, I would of attacked Vrk like I did to Mae hoping he would post something if he had replied to my post 227.

Of course a lynch is better than a no lynch, I'm not suspicious of you just because you hammered. The hammer vote is always scrutinized, but for me your hammer stands out because of the timing, and your reasons.

I voted for two reasons:
1. She asked to be voted, I think because she wanted to get on the newbie list, because she signed up again as soon as I voted.
2. I was thinking 75% town, but that 25% I wasn't sure of. I couldn't be positive, so I had to vote.

You hammered somebody that you say you felt was 75% town. You imply that you were forced to vote Mae because otherwise there would be a no lynch. I don't buy that, I tend to believe you are using that to clean your hands of Maes lynch. I think that after much vote hopping you saw an excellent opportunity after Starbuck put Mae at L-1 (a vote switch I hope to delve into my next post) to lynch her while acting like you're forced to do it for the sake of a lynch. You kill somebody who you say you felt was town and then use the 22% chance vs. 0% chance as an excuse. That and the classic "he or she wanted to be lynched/didn't care!" which I've heard before and is a ridiculous reason for voting somebody... especially when you think they are town. And then you have the balls to tell me that

my

justification for voting her was scummy. I voted for who I felt was the scummiest. I didn't have a solid read on anybody, but when the deadline approached and push came to shove I voted Mae. She had posted just enough to avoid being prodded, and when she did post there was never any substance. And I got a weird vibe from her posts, something on a gut level I couldn't put my finger on. So, with no other candidate that I felt comfortable voting for I voted Mae. When I did so we were quite close to the deadline, and I didn't anticipate the momentum to shift against Mae so suddenly. But, like I've said, I stand by my vote.

As for why I'm not attacking VRK like I did Mae... well there are a couple differences. I never really attacked Mae, I let it be known that I found her suspicious, and noted her lack of effort when it came to defending herself. While it's true that VRK didn't post much at the end of yesterday (the lack of a vote bothered me then and it bothers me still) or the beginning of today; when he had posted there was substance. That was what was lacking in any of Mae's posts, and what drew my attention to her. When VRK did post there was opinions and logics and argument etc. That's the distinction. Plus, as I've said before, when I voted Mae there was not another person that I found especially scummy, whereas today there is.

You seem to think that Mae's lurking was the only reason I voted her, and therefore I should only vote for lurkers. But, as VRK pointed out, everybody in this game with the exception of Starbuck and yourself have been prodded. (Starbuck was actually prodded, but not for lack of posting). I would be quite the hypocrite if I went around pointing fingers at people for lurking, as I've been guilty of it myself.

[hiphop]

Of course a lynch is better than a no lynch, I'm not suspicious of you just because you hammered. The hammer vote is always scrutinized, but for me your hammer stands out because of the timing, and your reasons.

My timing? How can you have a problem with my timing? I knew I would be aroung the final minutes of the day, so if I voted I would cut her off without her being able to make another post(for one can't post once one is lynched). So I waited letting her defend herself the way she deemed fit.

I voted for two reasons:
1. She asked to be voted, I think because she wanted to get on the newbie list, because she signed up again as soon as I voted.
2. I was thinking 75% town, but that 25% I wasn't sure of. I couldn't be positive, so I had to vote.

You hammered somebody that you say you felt was 75% town. You imply that you were forced to vote Mae because otherwise there would be a no lynch. I don't buy that, I tend to believe you are using that to clean your hands of Maes lynch. I think that after much vote hopping you saw an excellent opportunity after Starbuck put Mae at L-1 (a vote switch I hope to delve into my next post) to lynch her while acting like you're forced to do it for the sake of a lynch. You kill somebody who you say you felt was town and then use the 22% chance vs. 0% chance as an excuse. That and the classic "he or she wanted to be lynched/didn't care!" which I've heard before and is a ridiculous reason for voting somebody... especially when you think they are town. And then you have the balls to tell me that

my

justification for voting her was scummy. I voted for who I felt was the scummiest. I didn't have a solid read on anybody, but when the deadline approached and push came to shove I voted Mae. She had posted just enough to avoid being prodded, and when she did post there was never any substance. And I got a weird vibe from her posts, something on a gut level I couldn't put my finger on. So, with no other candidate that I felt comfortable voting for I voted Mae. When I did so we were quite close to the deadline, and I didn't anticipate the momentum to shift against Mae so suddenly. But, like I've said, I stand by my vote.

There we have a misrepresentation. It was 25% chance of lynching scum not 22% chance. 9 people minus myself(because I am not scum) equals 8 people. 2 scum divided by 8 people equals 25% chance of finding scum. I was referring in that post of Mae being part of the 75% town. I never said how sure I was of her being town. If someone else wanted to put the hammer vote on Mae, because they actually believed she was scum, would have been fine with me. My vote was because I wanted a lynch.

In post 252 you gave your justification for voting Mae after the lynch happened. That is where I found you suspicious. Nobody asked you for a justification from you. To me it sounds like you wrote your justification just so that nobody could question your vote that nobody questioned in the first place. To me it looks like you want to clear your name and leave no doubt that you honestly believed that Mae was scum and didn’t expect her to be lynched, when she clearly just might be. That is where your scumtell was. Your vote is not an issue, it is your justification in post 252.

Plus, as I've said before, when I voted Mae there was not another person that I found especially scummy, whereas today there is.

Funny how yesterday you said I was probably town and today I am scum, when I don’t believe that I changed any. Could it be because I FOS you? Is that why you think I am scum? Also, you seem to be tunneling on me, when there are two scum.

[Petunho]

I'm gonna be V/LA on 29.8. - 6.9.

I'm in Lapland for vacation. I'll try to get to computer few times also that time.

[Petunho]

I'm having trouble making my mind about hiphop. Start has made very good accusations but hiphop's defence has been also interesting. He has been confused on certain terms and I myself don't think the hammer timing was that bad that some people are implying. If hiphop wouldn't have given the vote we would have had no lynch. Hiphop's comments on thinking Mae being townie and still hammering gives me bad vibes.

I have to have to look deeper on these posts and make my mind about this case.

I'll also come back to my VRK and Starbuck case.

[startransmission]

My timing? How can you have a problem with my timing? I knew I would be aroung the final minutes of the day, so if I voted I would cut her off without her being able to make another post(for one can't post once one is lynched). So I waited letting her defend herself the way she deemed fit.

Yeah, my choice of words was somewhat poor. You make a decent point here, you did allow her the chance to at least try to make some argument for herself. But even if she had I doubt she would've been able to dig herself out of the hole she was in with so little time left, so it's easy for you to say you gave her a chance, when the only chance she had was you or VRK not hammering her. I suppose by timing I meant how quickly the tables turned against Mae, and you're not to blame for that.

There we have a misrepresentation. It was 25% chance of lynching scum not 22% chance. 9 people minus myself(because I am not scum) equals 8 people. 2 scum divided by 8 people equals 25% chance of finding scum. I was referring in that post of Mae being part of the 75% town. I never said how sure I was of her being town. If someone else wanted to put the hammer vote on Mae, because they actually believed she was scum, would have been fine with me. My vote was because I wanted a lynch.

Ok, I got the math mixed up. I was also confused about what you meant by the 25 75, I thought you meant that you were 75% sure that Mae was town. Your explanation makes better sense now, but I still feel it may be a crutch.

In post 252 you gave your justification for voting Mae after the lynch happened. That is where I found you suspicious. Nobody asked you for a justification from you. To me it sounds like you wrote your justification just so that nobody could question your vote that nobody questioned in the first place. To me it looks like you want to clear your name and leave no doubt that you honestly believed that Mae was scum and didn’t expect her to be lynched, when she clearly just might be. That is where your scumtell was. Your vote is not an issue, it is your justification in post 252.

I always like to supply a reason for my votes. In post 252 I was responding to your post 250, where you laid out your reasons for voting Mae. I found your reasons to be poor, and this is where I initially misunderstood the 75/25 thing. So in my response I pointed out what I thought was scummy about the reasons for your vote, and as a contrast pointed out the reasons for my vote. I wasn't defending my vote, I hold no guilt or remorse over it.

Funny how yesterday you said I was probably town and today I am scum, when I don’t believe that I changed any. Could it be because I FOS you? Is that why you think I am scum? Also, you seem to be tunneling on me, when there are two scum.

Holy cow, you really think that your FOS on me is why I'm voting for you? Quite a bit can happen in 44 posts, and that is how many lapsed between my saying that I don't think you're scum and me voting for you. Here's a quick summary some of those posts in between that led me to change my mind about you.

232: I didn't like asking the town if you should cast your vote. It's your decision, and it feels like that post served to making you more of an ambassador of the town instead of taking ownership of your vote and the hammer.

246: This is where my alarm bells (or spidey sense if you will) started to go off. Asking why somebody was NKed is very WIFOM. It's a conversation that rarely if ever accomplishes anything. I know the first time I was scum I asked that very question the next day. I felt it did two things for me, it was a subtle way of me saying "look, I'm not scum, I'm as in the dark as anybody else" and would also ideally take conversation into a dead end. It also serves as an ego trip, it's fun to watch people speculate on why you did something. It borders on gloating.

250: I've gone over my issues with this one in virtually every post since.

253: Yes, this is where you FOSed me (and where the 22% confusion came up), but you actually have a decent point in there. What irked me was that I what I said was suspicious was that you hammered somebody that you said you felt was town, and yet you ask me

I made a post saying she should at least vote for who she thinks is the scummiest, how is that suspicious?

It's not suspicious, I never said it was. You changed what it is that I found suspicious into something totally else that I never brought up. Another example of you bringing up how you were the good guy just trying to get info out of Mae because you thought she was town.

256: Neither scummy nor particularly helpful. I think everyone can point to a post they made well before the deadline that was intended to get some substance out of Mae. It doesn't add much credence to your claim that you were "helping" Mae by trying to get her to defend herself, with only hours to go. This is a big problem for me, you saying that you were looking out for her best interest (what with her being in the 75% camp) by trying to coax her into defending herself, and then being forced to hammer her when she did a (predictably) terrible job- despite leaning towards her being town. I think Bouche was onto something when he thought maybe you were trying to make your vote look innocent. This ties in with 232.

So that's a brief explanation of why my opinion of you changed. But... I'm not 100% on you being scum. Let's say... 75%. My reservations for voting you in 215 are still with me. Despite some logic I don't quite follow and there being good reasons (even in day 1, as I pointed out at the time) to vote for you, I still like your play. You are active, you respond quickly to criticisms and defend yourself. As for me tunneling on you, well that's true. You are my number one suspect, and we've been involved in a debate that has focused my attention. I do plan on throwing some other theories out there however.

You are in a dangerous place. You've been at L-1 for a few days and nobody has unvoted you yet, despite you actively defending yourself. Are you willing to claim? Also, other than me, who are you most suspicious of right now?

[hiphop]

L-1 doesn't bother me. I can still post at L-1. L-1 and L-4 to me are not much different except only one more person needs to change their mind in order to lynch me. If somebody does lynch me without waiting for a couple of days left, they would be seriously anti-town. There is no reason to lynch me sooner than later. I hope you guys give me the same courtesy that I gave Mae.

As for claiming, I will not until the deadline is closer and(I now see that “and” Vrk) Starbuck(for she I believe is the most likely town.) asks me to.

As for my suspicions, my second is Vrk, but that is only a hunch for now.

You are fully in my 33% scum.

There is nothing innocent about a vote. It is a deadly thing, that cuts someone off without another post. I never tried to make my vote innocent. I call it self defense trying to get rid of scum.

As for me making that first post of the second day. I made it because I was reading another newbie game and the end of the game the scum that won, said she killed someone because they had her as being most likely town. This way the others would follow the person who was NK and not suspect her. I wanted to see if people in this game suspected someone because of the Nk. I thought maybe it would be a good way to lynch scum.

In 253 I thought hammering meant to dispute someone. That is why I asked you that question.

252- You gave a reason that everybody already knew. I gave a reason because Crazy asked me a question about my vote. You felt like you needed to give a reason too. Your reason was with your vote, mine was not. You are the one who is trying to make your vote more innocent than a vote should be. You are the one trying to show that you didn’t know she was town, when it was completely obvious that nobody knew.

I am learning to defend myself from a mini that I am currently playing in on this site, and I am glad I get to put it to some use. Otherwise I would be like Crazy wondering who to attack without someone attacking him. I hate quotewars so I summarize.

[Starbuck]

I honestly don't like how you are all caught up on the numbers. The games are preset in the F11 setup. 9 players with two Mafia is known at the start. Did you not read any of the valuable links in the first post of the Newbie Queue before you signed up?


Why do you need me to ask you to claim?

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Actually, it is 22%. Just because you say you're town doesn't mean anything. In a totally random environment, which is where iama was initially making the statement from, on Day 1 you have a 22% chance of hitting scum.

@all: how do you feel about hiphop's recent arguments? Is he swaying you towards him being town? If not, who do you see as a possible partner? If so, who do you feel we should concentrate on next? We have 13 days left.

I'd like to hear from crazy as well, and bouched. I know bouched is going to be back this week. I doubt Petunho is going to get a post of substance in before the deadline.

I don't see a partner for hiphop, to be honest. Everyone came out against him today.

[hiphop]

I read some of the links of the newbie queue not all.

As for why I think you should be the one to ask me to role claim, it is because you are the most likely town. Why should I listen to someone who I believe is scum? So that if I claim as a PR he will say he is lying let's lynch him. And if I claim as a vanilla he can come back and say he claims as a vanilla and I believe him to be scum so let’s lynch him. If he is only a vanilla instead of scum, we won't be losing much. Since you are the most likely town to me you are the only person who I can trust when it comes to RCing. It is same reason that I trust iamausername's quotes so much because he was an experienced townie.

Vrk it is not 22%. I read my pms(I don't know what you do with them) and I know 100% what my role is. Therefore I can take my role out of the equation. If you knew what everybody’s roles were except for two people who one of them was scum, wouldn't you say that you have a 50% chance of hitting scum?

[crazypianist1116]

Actually, it is 22%. Just because you say you're town doesn't mean anything. In a totally random environment, which is where iama was initially making the statement from, on Day 1 you have a 22% chance of hitting scum.

@all: how do you feel about hiphop's recent arguments? Is he swaying you towards him being town? If not, who do you see as a possible partner? If so, who do you feel we should concentrate on next? We have 13 days left.

I'd like to hear from crazy as well, and bouched. I know bouched is going to be back this week. I doubt Petunho is going to get a post of substance in before the deadline.

I don't see a partner for hiphop, to be honest. Everyone came out against him today.

Sorry I haven't been posting much recently. I've been practicing piano about 6 hours a day so I haven't had a whole lot of time. I'll try and respond to the questions tonight.

[hiphop]

No post for 24 hours? Seriously. Where is all the activity that looked so promising the beginning of the second day?

startransmission you were posting at a good rate. What happened? The sooner you get those theories out there the sooner they can be speculated on.

[bouchedufou]

ok, I've finally pinpointed way back in day 1 why I was initially FOSing Starbuck. It was basically a mostly groundless accusation that she was defending hiphop. I do think however that she was either misreading hiphop's posts or was trying a bit hard in making the way easier for the replacement.

Why do you think a vote should only be used to garner information? It seems that hiphop senses that he found scum and is therefore voting for the scummiest player in his eyes, which is what a person should do. You are accusing him of randomly voting around.

His vote on you isn't at all random. Did you not read his post? He gave a reason as to why he was voting you.

Bold was placed by me

The thing is though, his vote on me

was

essentially random. He was frantically lashing out, like what he's doing now. Maybe it's hiphop's play style, maybe he's getting desperate. Plus, it seems most of us are discounting hiphop's predecessor. When VRK asked me whether he should be held accountable for baggy's posts, I replied at the time no. Now, baggy's posts, in any other case would have been read as mafia. The problem is that he was inactive. He was a bad player. And there's a possibility that he may have been derailing town just for no reason. But while there's that possibility, we also have to keep in mind that his posts are still highly suspicious, and should not be completely ignored.

So, I'll

unFOS Starbuck

. Because there really isn't anything to go on, if hiphop is scum. And if hiphop turns out to be town, then personally, I'd probably find her less guilty because she wasn't pushing all that hard for hiphop's lynch before when there wasn't much solid about our suspicions, at a time when she could easily have pressed on for an easy lynch. That said, this analysis may be WIFOM? Because her vote effectively turned Mae into the easy vote as the alternative to no-lynch. All that said, my gut tells me she's town.

As for hiphop, I still find him suspicions despite his posts. He goes a bit too much into the technicalities of percentages- forget about that for now, they're useless for helping us determine whether or not you're mafia. Plus, he seems unwilling to claim. I read this as either he's got a non-vanilla town role, or he's mafia- can someone tell me whether this is normally correct, or if I'm wrong, how this is wrong? I think the reason we want you to claim now, rather than just before the lynch, as you say you'd prefer to do, is that if your claim comes out as true, then we have time to choose someone else to lynch.

@VRK's question. Not sure about his partner. From what I remember and a general read-through, nothing jumps out at me. I'll go over it all again later in detail to see if there's anything I've missed.

[startransmission]

No post for 24 hours? Seriously. Where is all the activity that looked so promising the beginning of the second day?

I share your frustration.

startransmission you were posting at a good rate. What happened? The sooner you get those theories out there the sooner they can be speculated on.

It's only been a day. I know how easygoing things are in Hillsboro, but here in Portland people work for a living.

So, there have been a few things I've been thinking over the past few days, and I'd like to throw some of those thoughts out. I'll share what I'm thinking and see if anything sticks. First off, I want to put down where some of my logic is coming from.

Day 1, Vote Count #11
Maemuki (5) <- Petunho, startransmission, iamausername, Starbuck, hiphop
hiphop (2) <- crazypianist1116, bouchedufou

This is the final vote count. I'm convinced that scum is somewhere on the Mae wagon. I don't believe Petunho to be scum, I got little scum read out of his predecessor and if he were scum he would be able to reasonably put hiphop at L-1 and avoid being the hammer. Nobody would question him as the momentum was going against hiphop anyhow. He instead chose to vote Mae, and supplied good reasoning. The next vote is myself. While I know myself to be town, none of you (except the mafia) do, so this part is a bit academic. But... I vote for Mae as well, about a day later. I say why I won't get on the hiphop wagon besides there being some valid reasons to vote him, and echo what I've said before about Mae. I found her scummier, and my vote makes two. Next is iamausername, about two hours after my vote- now is where things go fast. He supplies the same reasons as everybody else, and he is now proven town.

This is where things get tricky. Despite being very vocal against hiphop, once three votes quickly stack up against Mae, Starbuck moves into that sweet spot I was talking about with Petunho and hiphop and puts Mae at L-1. This happens within an hour of iamausersname vote.

And now the hammer. hiphop supplies it, just before the deadline. This is about two hours after Mae was placed at L-1. During that two hours both hiphop and Mae were active. Mae claims, but time is out. hiphop figures that a lynch is better than a no lynch (despite not thinking Mae was scum, which still bothers me) and does the deed.

So, given that my list of suspects is down to two, let's look at the possibilities.

1. Starbuck is scum. Her main candidate clearly fell through; with time running out the hiphop wagon was sputtering. Three votes quickly stack against another viable candidate. She has (as had virtually everybody else) already brought up her issues with Mae, so a vote would have precedent in argument. Soon (within an hour) after the third vote comes in she strikes, putting Mae at L-1 and avoiding being the hammer. This part is important, she doesn't wait too long for somebody else to grab the L-2 spot, she nabs it quite quickly. Nothing left to do now but hope that either VRK or hiphop takes the bait. Either way it's a win, either her primary candidate for a lynch is stuck with the hammer, or the IC is.

2. hiphop is scum. Everybody feels more comfortable with a Mae lynch because she was scummy, and once she's placed at L-1 hiphop takes advantage and uses the 22% or whatever thing as a crutch to do his dirty deed.

I'd like to jump to Petunhos excellent post 269.

Starbuck I have read your posts and the thing I was after is listed below.

Currently, I find hiphop the scummiest. ...

Vote: hiphop

I'm definitely staying with my vote.

204: Petunho votes for Mae

...he (hiphop) has been acting scummy, which is why my vote is where it is.

215: Start votes for Mae

Hiphop, has since, replaced in and has made himself look scummy all on his own

219: Iama votes for Mae

I'm in definite agreement. Maemuki has been the epitome of active lurking. ...

Unvote: hiphop
Vote: Maemuki

You all the way justificated strongly on your vote on hiphop and said that he was The scummy, but when you saw hiphop's lynch fading away, after me, start and iama voting, you went for the bandwagon that was gaining pace.

I wasn't after the reasons why you saw Mae scummy, but the reason why you

changed

the vote. It seems scummy to hop on the other wagon after you posted this on your post 219 where you voted for Mae.

Maemuki is my #2 suspicion

If she was your number two suspicion why did you changed the vote on her from number one suspicion?

For scums it all the same who the town lynches as long as it's townie. You saw that VRK posted his absence, you calculated you coudn't get hiphop lynched, because the voting situation was:

According to my unofficial vote count, this is where we are currently at:


Day 1, Vote Count
hiphop (3) <- crazypianist1116, bouchedufou, Starbuck
Maemuki (3) <- Petunho, startransmission, iamausername
iamausername <- hiphop

Not voting: Maemuki, Vel-Rahn Koon.

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch.

There was only VRK and Mae who could have jumped on the hiphop wagon, but there was crazy, bouch, and hiphop that could jump on Mae's wagon.

You calculated 1+1 = Lynch Mae.

I calculate VRK + Starbuck = Scumpair.

Sorry I quoted the whole thing, I'm actually not sure how to link a post. The point is that Petunho lays out very well why Starbucks vote change is questionable. Petunho actually first asks Starbuck about this vote change in post 258. Starbuck responds,

@Petunho - If you go back in my posts, you will see that my second suspicion was of Mae. Her active lurking (coming in enough just to post something small and then leave again) had me feeling that she was in fact scum. Hiphop did not leave my radar and I said that as well. His hammer of her, especially after his contradictions that I found at the top of this post, are extremely scummy in my eyes.

Which is a reasonable response. But like I said earlier in my debate with hiphop, everyone can say that they were suspicious of Mae before her wagon took off. Petunho isn't satisfied though, and that's where 269 comes in. A post I obviously really like. A response from Starbuck would've been great, but instead...

As for yesterday's lynch, it was quite obvious when it was coming down to the wire that hiphop wasn't going to be lynched. 2 more people would have to vote for hiphop and the only candidates were startransmission, Maemuki, iamausername, PEtunho, and Vel-Rahn Koon (keep in mind this was before Starbuck changed the vote). VRK obviously wasn't going to be on. Startransmission had already said he thought Maemuki was more scummy than hiphop as had you. Even if Maemuki had voted for hiphop, there wouldn't have been enough votes on him to lynch. And Starbuck already said that she found Maemuki suspicious.

It's obvious that a lynch on someone suspicious is better than no lynch and that's why Starbuck changed her vote from #1 to #2.

FoS: Petunho

Immediately dismisses Petunhos logic, which I feel is sound, and strongly defends Starbucks vote. Also reminds everybody that Starbuck never liked Mae in the first place, making her vote a natural switch. Then puts an FOS on Petunho... for what? For questioning Starbuck?

In 275 Petunho expresses his frustration at Crazy answering for Starbuck. @ Petunho... do you mind pointing out other instances? You say it's not the first time...

Wow. When I started this I wasn't too sure about how I felt about this theory, but it seems that putting all this down has emboldened my suspicions. hiphop, you're not off my radar.

Unvote, Vote: Starbuck

And FOS: crazypianist as her partner.