Open 160 Bird 7P (GAME!) - before 823

[hohum]

Vote bloodcovenant

we're not going to no-lynch

[hohum]

Charnel: it's in exceedingly poor taste to try and tear down a wagon. I like baltar's vote and I understand the reasoning.

I know you're trying to be helpful but it would actually be better if you simply hopped on the wagon or waited until he has a chance to respond. The reasons for the votes will become clear to you after he wakes up.

[hohum]

I know exactly what I'm saying and doing.

I'm aware that he's at L-2. I'm also aware that another vote would put him at L-1. I would be absolutely fine with that, because he's in no danger of being quick-lynched any time soon.

[hohum]

Now for the love of god, will you please let him respond?!

[hohum]

From my understanding, wagons are a good way to find scum. But then again, I could be wrong.

You're not wrong.

yabba and bloodcovenant are currently at the top of my list of suspects.

[hohum]

I would have at least appreciated some reason for the vote

Pay attention. The reason is there. no-lynch is a horrible, scummy idea.

Me? What am I specifically responding too?

You shouldn't be ignoring the fact that a wagon has formed, on you.

You clearly don't understand what's going on here, so let me try again. You need to explain why you believe a no-lynch on D1 with this setup is a good idea.

[hohum]

why? Because I voted No lynch to start up discussion? I can understand the Yabba argument, he seems to be putting cases on people (muzz) with nothing at all really

That's exactly why you're one of my top suspects right now. It's a scummy thing to do, whether your intentions were good or not is pretty irrelevant. If you don't want negative attention don't do negative things.

[hohum]

I got the sarcasm but I didn't think others would. That's why I felt it necessary to make the comment.

[hohum]

I had to reread the topic to figure out what the hell you're talking about. I don't see that he's even trying to make a case against you.

Why are you so defensive?

[hohum]

I see.

Sorry.

[hohum]

I would have at least appreciated some reason for the vote

Pay attention. The reason is there. no-lynch is a horrible, scummy idea.

Me? What am I specifically responding too?

You shouldn't be ignoring the fact that a wagon has formed, on you.

You clearly don't understand what's going on here, so let me try again. You need to explain why you believe a no-lynch on D1 with this setup is a good idea.

Wait... you seriously believe that I am pushing for a no lynch?

If you're not, then you need to say that you aren't so we can go about scum hunting. Expecting that we're all just going to assume that it was a joke vote only makes you look scummier.

You said you wanted to provide discussion fodder and that's what you're doing. Don't bitch about being in the spotlight. I shouldn't have to explain why deviating from the normal practice of random voting in any way is a scum tell, even if it's only a minor one.

You're still at the top of my list.

Unvote, Vote Yabba

[hohum]

Clearly our posts cross paths, so I'm only going to address what I feel I haven't in my last post.

I'm puzzled. You got ticked at me because I asked what I believed to be legitimate questions. I've seen several games where people also get annoyed for wagoning at a rapid pace, and that's where my confusion came in.

I feel a game theory debate coming on here, which I'm happy to sit here and have with you. But you need to realize my main issue with what you're doing is that my vote was directed at him, not you. You should feel free to voice your opinion; however, when something is not specifically directed at you then you need to have enough courtesy to let the target respond first. Otherwise it's going to appear as if you're defending rather blatantly.

I throw my vote around because it's the only tool that I have. Wagons are the only tool that the town has to effectively coordinate an attack and pressure people. People who like to pick apart quick wagons are simply wrong for doing so and they're doing the town a grave disservice.

[hohum]

You've called both of us out for ONE thing that you deemed scummy. That's impulsivity

How would you suggest we go about scum hunting then?

[hohum]

You think I'm talking about Baltar. I'm not. I'm talking about bloodcovenent.

Now sometimes, wagons can have another effect. Sometimes you can see that some of the latecomers on the wagon come up with a lousy excuse, and then you vote them for being opportunistic. In that case, the wagon serves a different pro-town purpose. While I think claiming there was nonexistant reasoning was incorrect, sometimes that happens.

That's fine and dandy but the only way to properly judge a wagon is in hindsight: with acctual evidence to go on. Otherwise you're just going to tie yourself up into WIOFMY knots. You're also going to make the mistake of confusing someone's pressure vote for a bad case and you're going to end up lynching the wrong person eventually.

Throwing a vote around? Could be pegged as inconsistency, obviously depends.

How would you suggest we go about scum hunting then?

[hohum]

I want to try this another way.

@Yabba: who do find suspicious and why?

[hohum]

I'm not rushing anything. There's only one person we haven't heard from so far.

I'm also not asking you to make a suspect list. You said a few posts ago that it's okay to be suspicious of people. By that I'm assuming you meant it's okay to give your opinion of people because it would otherwise be super hypocritical of you to tell me that me that I shouldn't be making lists of suspects but then turn around a few posts later and tell me it's okay to be suspicious of people.

I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here but you're not making it very easy with glaring contradictions in your thought processes.

I want to know where your opinion of the people who have posted so far is, seeing as we've already heard from almost everyone in the game. It isn't an unreasonable thing of me to ask.

[hohum]

BTW it's perfectly okay for you to say "I have no read on XXXX"

That is a satisfactory answer. I'm not trying to force you to have an opinion. I just want to know if you do and what it is because it will help ME get a better read on YOU.

I'm specifically interested in knowing what you currently think of me, since as you pointed out you and I have interacted the most.

[hohum]

So, nothing like this here? Right?

I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here but you're not making it very easy with glaring

contradictions

in your thought processes.

yea...

I'd like you to point out for the classroom where I actually ever said I wasn't making suspect lists. I'm more than happy to, and I'm not the one who objected.

He is.

[hohum]

BloodCovenenant: quit defending your scum buddy.

[hohum]

@BloodCovenant: I also noticed you're dodging questions. You've been asked something twice, and now I'm getting sort of curious myself. See post 44, post 33. You've posted twice now without answering. It shows you're either not really paying attention or you just don't care. Either way, it's scummy as hell and you need to stop.

[hohum]

@BloodCovenant: I also noticed you're dodging questions. You've been asked something twice, and now I'm getting sort of curious myself. See post 44, post 33. You've posted twice now without answering. It shows you're either not really paying attention or you just don't care. Either way, it's scummy as hell and you need to stop.

No, i was asked it once.

Muzz regarding 33 - I understood VP's vote, but with Hohum's vote, it was bandwagoning. What I wasn't comfortable with per-say, was how he started a thought, and i felt he didn't complete it. By him tunneling me, suggest that I really want a no-lynch, is scummy in itself. I do not want a no lynch, i used that as a way to get out of the RVS, for after we're through with the RVS, the real fun begins.

If you're not, then you need to say that you aren't so we can go about scum hunting. Expecting that we're all just going to assume that it was a joke vote only makes you look scummier.

This is complete bullshit. Just because I vote for this,

as my first vote,

which was

given during the random vote stage

,

indicates

, that it was a

random vote

! Would it have been better if I just voted myself like mastin? you still would have taken it the wrong way. Check my Meta, i've started off at least one other game with a vote for no-lynch.

I would have come after you for the self-vote too. If I'm ever in a game with Mastin I'll go after him too. You keep saying how all you're trying to do is provide discussion fodder yet you seem to be annoyed that we're talking about it.

BTW having to use SOMEONE ELSE'S meta to support your own actions is scummy.

Here's why random votes can be telling. MS has well established procedures for doing things like kicking of discussion (the RVS), bringing a wagon to a lynch (ask for a claim, discuss the claim, lynch the wagonee), etc. These are merely best practices; however, as a town-aligned player there's really very little reason to deviate from these practices because they are

WIDELY

used.

The severity of deviation is debatable; however, it *IS* a scum tell, and it *DOES* merit discussion. To that end you succeeded in what your stated goal was: you got us out of the RVS; however, it is still a scum tell and I will talk about it all I want. I will talk about it until the end of the fucking game if I damned well please because it will help me get a better read on you.

You said you wanted to provide discussion fodder and that's what you're doing. Don't bitch about being in the spotlight. I shouldn't have to explain why deviating from the normal practice of random voting in any way is a scum tell, even if it's only a minor one.

I'm not bitching about being in the spotlight, i'm bitching about your stupidity! Have you ever played with Mastin! He always claims scum, gives his scum-partners, and self votes, is that the normal too?

You're still at the top of my list.

Unvote, Vote Yabba

Then keep your vote on me damnit!

Get one thing straight: I will vote for WHOEVER I damned well please in order to aide myself in getting reads on people, pressuring them for information, etc.

I throw my vote around because it's the only tool that I have.

You inadvertently contradicted yourself, where did you do it? In the quote of yours above this one.

. People who like to pick apart quick wagons are simply wrong for doing so and they're doing the town a grave disservice.

Wrong, picking apart some wagons can be very helpful for the town.

You're wrong. Period. Clearly you need to go play in some more newbie games

BloodCovenenant: quit defending your scum buddy.

Hohum: quite tunneling.

I'm not tunneling. I'm asking both of you questions in order to get a better read on the both of you. I'll keep doing this until I'm satisfied with the result.

@BloodCovenant: I also noticed you're dodging questions. You've been asked something twice, and now I'm getting sort of curious myself. See post 44, post 33. You've posted twice now without answering. It shows you're either not really paying attention or you just don't care. Either way, it's scummy as hell and you need to stop.

seriously dude?

your so gay

, he asked one question...

one

. I'm not dodging questions, just overlooked it. I thought it was rhetorical, and I missed his post 44. You are taking a very large leap in saying that I am not paying attention, or me not caring. I do care, i'm just also in other games that this one, you of all people should know. Like I said, i over looked it, but I have responded to it now. It is not scummy as hell, and what do I need to stop? Something that cannot be stopped? If i've missed something, please, kindly point it out, don't dramatically thrust it on me, and suddenly call me scum becuase of it. You are taking huge assumptions, and twisting them to suit your purposes.

Now that's totally uncalled for. I'll expect an apology at the end of the game when I'm proven to be correct.

Also, scum points for you. I see you'd rather resort to ad-hom attacks than take me seriously. Do so at your own peril.

question dodging is not a scumtell at this point in time! Maybe if i was asked

several

, not just

one

question at deadline, and I posted several times, all evading the questions could you accuse me of that, and accuse me of being scum

at that point in time,

not now.

The problem is question dodging is indeed a scum tell. A major one too.

-BC, why are you blatantly defending me? Post 49 is really crappy, honestly. Where do you stand on hohum? Where do you stand on me?

This post screams "WE'RE BOTH SCUM, LYNCH US!" to me.

You hohum, I'm well in the green at the moment. You're very actively engaged in finding scum, and that's good. What I'm not a fan of is that your scumhunting is trying to get me to do things I would not ordinarily do, like post a suspect list NOW when I would rather just be silently collecting notes.

Wrong answer. If you were indeed town-aligned then you should find me at least somewhat suspicious. My vote is currently on you and I have been pressuring you, after all. Your response indicates that you have some inside knowledge of the setup.

[hohum]

Which of these do you find more important, throwing your vote around or aiding bandwagons?

Glad to see you joined the discussion. It's a very contextual question. There's usually a lot going on in your typical mafia game so sometimes getting information out of people is the priority; however, on the whole pack mentality in this game is a good thing and not a bad thing so I would typically aide a wagon if I have nothing better to do.

[hohum]

Sarcasm won't get you anywhere.

I'm liking my vote more and more.

[hohum]

you know what I meant.

[hohum]

I don't need to slow down. There isn't 5 mysterious people in this game that we haven't heard from yet. We've heard from EVERYONE at this point.

This setup is essentially a smaller at faster version of the F11 setup run in the newbie queues. This particular setup rarely goes longer than 15-20 pages total, spread out over 2, 3 or 4 days. With 7 people things should be expected to move along at a slightly more rapid pace.

You're just looking for an excuse to back me off, and it isn't going to work.


What I meant by inside knowledge, is you seem to know who is scum and who isn't -- which means YOU'RE scum.

[hohum]

I doubt you have heard from Octupis, who hasn't given any opinion on the game.

Pay attention. He posted last night.

[hohum]

So what? He's at least asking questions and making a concerted effort to do some scum hunting, even if his contributions have been marginal up to this point. I answered his question and now I'm waiting to hear what he thinks of my answer. That's generally how this works.

You on the other hand aren't doing anything other than offering color commentary.

[hohum]

Yes, what is your problem with that? You have not actually wrote anything productive, and then asked if I was going to post again? I am a newbie, but I think this is known as active lurking.

QFT.

@Charnel: are you going to actually do any scum hunting this game?

Who do you find suspicious and why?

[hohum]

Also has anyone else noticed how neither Yabba nor BloodCovenant expressed any concern over the fact that I've referred to them as scum buddies several times already and I even went as far as to say that BC was defending Yabba (which yabba agreed with, BTW) and now they're trying to put some distance in between each other?

[hohum]

@BC: why are you still voting no-lynch?

[hohum]

that's it? That's all you have to say for yourself at this point?

Unvote, Vote BloodCovenant

I like muzz's case on you.

[hohum]

(L-2)

[hohum]

NP, take your time. I'll just camp my vote here until you've had time to make up more excuses.

[hohum]

Let me know when you're done lurking.

[hohum]

Please don't forget that I know who you are. Don't expect to play the noob card in this game. +1 scumpoint

If you know anything about Charnel then you need to share it with the rest of us, as it could drastically alter the outcome of this game.

now they're trying to put some distance in between each other?

What makes you feel so?

The fact that they're now attacking each other and nobody else after an invigorating round of defending one another.

Ok, fully caught up. Mod, vote counts a bit more frequently please

I think he's doing fine. Remember, small game, doesn't require loads of attention. That's why it's given to newbie mods so often in the open game queue.

Try taking your own notes, it will probably help you in the long run, and I'm not just talking about being clued into vote counts either.

[hohum]

@hohum

re:Charnel--he is an alt for someone else. I won't reveal who out of respect for privacy, but playing the newbie card is shady at best.

If charnel really wanted privacy he would have kept it a secret from you too. The fact that you know is pause for suspicion. You two working together, or what?

I'm an alt too, but I don't hide behind that fact. I'm very open about my meta.

[hohum]

I'm all about outing alts.

[hohum]

Post a link please. If he "accidentally" outed himself it should not matter anymore. Why bother keepng it a secret if it's already public knowledge?

I'm a dcorbe alt. Some of my gameplay has been admittedly piss-poor but that's not the reason for the alt. The reason for the alt is my name is "Daniel Corbe" and I just simply don't want my bad behavior on MS linked to me when you google search my name (or at least I wanted to attempt to minimize it)

[hohum]

I don't really care whether you think it will help me or not. That's just an excuse not to reveal your alt.

Cut your losses now. If you REALLY want to play with some privacy then create another account and be more careful about outing yourself in the future.

Your meta may or may not be helpful, but that's for me to decide, not you.

[hohum]

Interesting. Maybe this will convince you to be a little more honest with me:

Unvote, Vote Charnel

I take your refusal to respond as a translation to this:

I accidentally outed myself in our quicktopic for this thread. I don't want to post the link because it will confirm that I am scum

If I'm wrong then please feel free to set the record straight, and post links to what I've been asking for.

@Baltar: You fucked up dude. You shouldn't have said anything. I would have gone right on blissfully trying to lynch Yabba or BC.

[hohum]

Oh

Never mind.

Egg on my face. Hehe. I didn't read the whole topic first before I posted.

Unvote

[hohum]

Vote: BC

Moar BC lynching, please.

[hohum]

Hohum, you are surprisingly aggressive for a person who could have looked at all the games VP and I posted together in

Not to state the obvious here, but I could give a fuck about your alts. Your refusal to share information with the town is way more interesting to me than your meta. I'm going to be taking a closer look at Baltar now for the same reason.

I obviously just telegraphed my intentions with the last 3 posts because I don't know how to read, so I'll have to come up with a better way to put some pressure on you.[/quote]

[hohum]

was that really the hammer?

[hohum]

fuck.

[hohum]

i was doing so well too.

[hohum]

Twilight
Star Bright
First start I see tonight
I wish I may I wish I might
Have hammered wisely tonight (even though I'm a fucking dunce)

[hohum]

I unvoted because I realized I made a mistake.

Also, you're the one who told me I hammered.

[hohum]

More BC lynching, please

[hohum]

BC is trying to make a case on me because HE fucked up and sent me into a panic.

[hohum]

how is that an ad-hom attack? Do you know what the definition of the word is? I'm pointing out that you indeed made a mistake. That's a factual piece of information, not a personal attack.

[hohum]

I said you fucked up. I didn't call you a fuck up. Learn to read.

We both fucked up. The difference between us is that I can admit when I made a mistake, you clearly can't.

More BC lynching please.

[hohum]

You're still in school, right?

If you can't tell the difference subjectively between a verb (your actions, you fucked up) and a noun (you are a fuck up) when in a subjective context, then you should consider asking your guidance counselor to give you more English classes next year.

Seriously, work on your reading comprehension problems.

I laughed.

[hohum]

and that IS an ad-hom attack. You're really starting to piss me off now.

[hohum]

BTW the attempt to deliberately misquote me is noted.

[hohum]

You lost the right to bitch about language when you decided to be a tool and call me gay.

[hohum]

All you are is a bigoted little

shit.

That word is a no-no.

[hohum]

I want him out of this game. Either lynch him or me. I'm going to do fuck all until one of us is gone.

[hohum]

I'm voting based on my well-documented case against him, but also because he's useless. He's going to be an automatic policy lynch for me in the future, though.

[hohum]

On a more serious note, I'll gladly tone down my language if it will help resolve any personality conflicts.

I find the use of strong language to be an effective cage-rattling tool so my default mode of operation is always to be as aggressive as possible. I also realize that this game largely revolves around social dynamics, so if I'm making anyone other than bloodcovenant uncomfortable then let me know and I'll stop.

I have a feeling that this post alone will be enough to take some of the edge off.

[hohum]

Don't apologize. You actually may have done us a favor with that ninja-unvote

[hohum]

@BloodCovenant: I know you're alive. I see you posting. Care to claim?

[hohum]

@hohum: Why did you say "lynch BC or lynch me"?

I don't like ultimatums but in this case I feel it's necessary to draw a line in the sand.

He's obvscum. He isn't even good scum, because he's trying to pull case on me out of thin air. Instead of concentrating on my Charnel vote (which he should have done), he's quibbling over the meaning of a few hastily typed words.

[hohum]

He isn't the doc. I assure you he's lying. Lynch him please.

[hohum]

Yabba: stop role fishing scum.

[hohum]

I'm worth trusting. Lynch me and find out if you want to save your scum buddy instead. I promise you that he's lying.

Both you and Yabba need to stop fucking role fishing and start lynching BC.

[hohum]

Look guys. This business about the doc claiming is just pure scum role fishing plain and simple.

If the doc counterclaims to satisfy the requirement of lynching BC then we're going to lose the doc N!. If BC is telling the truth and he is the doc, then we're going to lose the doc right now.

Either way we're going to lose the doc.

We should be lynching BC because there's a mountain of evidence that he's scum. 8+ pages worth. All laid out here right for your very eyes.

There's no reason to believe BC's claim because he hasn't been truthful with us so far one single solitary step of the way. At least if we lynch him without a doc counterclaim we stand a chance of saving the doc, and that would give us more of an advantage going into D2.

[hohum]

I want to point something else out. Keep the size of the setup in mind when thinking about this. 7P. If we mislynch on D1 and doc protection fails N1, that puts us in lylo. That also puts the scum in the situation where the default move on D1 if they're caught is basically to claim a power role to avoid getting lynched. It's such an obvious move. The D2 strategy for scum in this game is to introduce as much WIFOM as humanly possible, then move in for the win.

D1 power role claims in this setup need to be taken with a grain of salt.

[hohum]

Scum win 7P setups like this one far too often because the new crop of players coming up in the ranks simply rely on claims and counterclaims far too much. I'm just asking you guys to think, and think very carefully about the possible outcomes.

[hohum]

yabba: Would meta help convince you that counter-claiming is a bad idea?

I have an example of this setup being run where a D1 claim and counterclaim hurt the town, and gave the scum the victory.

[hohum]

Please also consider my own stake in this. If BC flips town, I've basically aligned myself against him, and you can lynch me tomorrow satisfied that you KNOW you've caught scum. Whose case is better? Mine on BC or BC's on me?

[hohum]

I'm also offering to be lynched today (as a last resort) in order to prove my point.

[hohum]

Also, let's hear from BC (and everyone else) before we move ahead with any lynches, mkay?

Fair enough

I would like to see that game hohum.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10499

[hohum]

Look at yabba's second scenario there. Really REALLY think about that.

I'm simply offering a way to potentially avoid lylo here. There's no other option. Any other path we take, lylo is a certainty. At least with this gambit that I'm proposing it isn't a 100% certainty.

[hohum]

I'm perfectly fine with the notion of lyching a townie to catch scum. That will stave off lylo until Day 4, worst case scenario.

You're really short sighted Yabba, and I don't like that.

[hohum]

also if the game goes on that long, don't you think we'll need a doc? We should be exploring the option that attempts to save him

[hohum]

You're right. My stats were off, apologies. That aside, if you take EVERYTHING into consideration, trying to save the doc is the better option, by your own admission (see table above)

Take a look at BC's bad case on me, then take a look at my+everyone else's case on BC and decide for yourself who is more likely to be lying. Me, or Him.

You will just simply have to trust me that my own lynch will reveal a whole lot of information about BC.

[hohum]

I'd like to hear from Charnel and Octupis at this point because their cooperation is required to conduct this lynch; however, BC (of course) is going to oppose no matter what we say because he's self-preserving scum.

[hohum]

Yabba isn't going to go along because he's BC's scum partner.

Baltar: you're clearly at least willing to listen to reason.

[hohum]

Requesting a replacement as scum when you're about to be lynched is pretty fail BC. Please reconsider.

[hohum]

You're clearly wanted here. You're asking someone to replace into a VERY difficult position dude. I'm not really a horrible person, this whole thing has a lot to do with my MS persona, please don't take anything that's been said to you personally.

[hohum]

You're coming dangerously close to referencing melodrama which took place in a different ongoing game. Be careful. Throw me under the bus later after that game ends if it will make you feel better, I don't really care, but you need not force someone into a difficult position just because you don't like me.

[hohum]

look dude. you don't have t post again for 48 hours. Just take the time to reconsider.

[hohum]

*sigh*

I tried.

More egruntz lynching please.

[hohum]

I disagree. There's an excellent case there, it's quite clear at this point that BC basically lied and the claim really doesn't clear anything up.

He's at l-1, typically procedure from here is to lynch a claimed vanilla role and let the flip do the talking. Anything else leads to WIFOM.

[hohum]

egruntz isn't going to be able to speak for BC's state of mind but why would he claim doc falsely? The simplest explanation was that he wanted to do a little role fishing for his scum partner and take some parting shots before he was lynched.

egruntz isn't going to claim scum, that would be stupid. He's simply trying to survive at this point.

[hohum]

why would egruntz-scum reclaim in this position?

he wouldn't. So his claim is likely true.

This is in defiance of Occam's Razor. You've got to do way too much assuming to arrive at this conclusion. You're basically throwing multiple extensively documented cases to assume that egruntz (a newbie) wouldn't make a mistake and try to change his claim to save his own ass.

[hohum]

Sorry for the multi-posting, I'll stop now.

[hohum]

I wrote this up an hour ago in order to later retort anyone who decided to argue that I'm suggesting that we follow procedure (or not follow procedure) as it suits my whims. After debating the importance of what I'm trying to convey to you guys, I decided to go ahead and post it, even though revealing too much of my hand at once puts me at a disadvantage from a stand point of debate mechanics.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10499

I don't think many of you will actually go read that link, so I'm going to summarize it for you:

This setup is unique in that it creates far more incentive for scum to claim power roles at any stage of the game. To use a baseball analogy: it's a sacrifice fly. One scum goes down in flames while the other one snipes at counterclaimed PRs. By not following procedure and lynching without a counterclaim, we effectively remove this incentive and tip the balance back into the town's favor.

For town to win this setup, there can't be a wagon claim which won't result in a lynch. In this respect, the site-wide (and well established and practiced) lynch procedure on MS becomes a tool merely to prevent quick-lynches and nothing more.

[hohum]

I'm personally fond of this setup because it forces the town to really think about evidence instead of relying on claims to catch scum.

[hohum]

One way or another I'm going to drag you guys kicking and screaming into this egruntz lynch.

This setup is unique in that it creates far more incentive for scum to claim power roles at any stage of the game. To use a baseball analogy: it's a sacrifice fly. One scum goes down in flames while the other one snipes at counterclaimed PRs. By not following procedure and lynching without a counterclaim, we effectively remove this incentive and tip the balance back into the town's favor.

I don't necessarily agree with this being a good tactic for scum. Losing one of their members for a PR isn't a great exchange because they only have two members. This is especially true of claiming doc. Say they get a counter claim on the doc and lose a member that day. That night the doc gets killed, but the second member would still be susceptible to cop investigation. It is a bad decision that could result in a perfect town win. I plan to check out your link; I just need some time today to do it.

re:egruntz--I want to hear his reread. He could still be scum trying to backpeddle on the doc claim now because it put him in a sticky situation. Of course, BC could have also just been an idiot who was pissed at the game and boned the town.

Again hohum, there is no rush until we sort this matter our fully. I don't like Charnel dismissing the possibility of BC/egruntz being scum immediately because of a fake doc claim. That makes no sense. A Charnel lynch today wouldn't be a bad idea either.

There's a multitude of reasons why you should listen to me. I'm trying to get you guys to think ahead because you can be sure that after all this theory and setup debate the scum team are.

I think you're severely underestimating the incentive part. If (for example) we allow the claimed doc to live, what's to stop the next scum from claiming cop? Or, what to stop the scum from counter-claiming the cop later? It all involves a fair amount of gaming; however, allowing the claimed doc to live also involves the same WIFOM.

I'm suggesting that we lynch egruntz based on nothing more than the mountain of evidence which points to the fact that he's scum. As BC pointed out, he's been under suspicion now since (well actually before) page 2. Throw the boldfaced lie he told when he claimed on top of that, and you've got a recipe for scum soup.

lynching Charnel isn't a bad idea. Hohum, thoughts?

I believe we'd be settling for charnel at this point based on the notion that every setup is similar enough that we should blindly follow standard operating procedure. I find charnel quite scummy and would be supportive of the lynch today, but I would still much rather see a BC/egruntz lynch.

We've already caught the scum. The confirmed fakeclaim should at this point simply be the straw that broke the horse's back.

If we leave him alive we're only going to end up back in the same endless theory debate tomorrow. That gives the scum too much opportunity to break is apart by WIFOM. I'd rather put and end to this now and do some scum hunting tomorrow with the benefit of a productive flip to go on. I just really don't see charnel's flip as being quite as productive as egruntz/BC.

I want my read on charnel to be 100% before we lynch. In the last couple of pages it's getting closer but not quite there yet. After egruntz flips and I am proven correct, then things like the newbie-card-chainsaw-defense argument will stick better for charnel having said shit like this:

hohum: as a newby, I once undid a uncc'ed copclaim when I replaced. So egruntz could be in the same position as me. In that situation are two things different: I replaced a newby, and he claimed in a very wrong way.

[hohum]

Remember guys, they don't have to NK us all, they only have to get us down to a 2:2 endgame to declare victory. Using PR claims to delay scum lynches in such a small setup is an extremely viable scum strategy. We shouldn't be as dismissive of the notion of lynching claimed PRs in such a small setup for that reason.

[hohum]

And if he does flip VT?

If he does flip VT and I'm wrong, then we've simply been sunken by BC's stupidity, and we're likely going to lose this game anyways.

[hohum]

I did answer your question. You made the same mistake that I made by not reading the thread all the way through before posting.

Top suspects for tomorrow in case BC's VT flip I'd have to sit here and meditate on for a bit. I'd rather do more scum hunting tomorrow though than today. The time to speculate is over. More egruntz lynching is the right thing to do here.

[hohum]

I have trouble buying he would be stupid enough to fakeclaim Doc as a townie.

*headdesk* come on guys. Every single one of you have called his actions scummy for some reason or another. He *LIED*. Saying that the fakeclaim was too obvious of a mistake is giving him too much credit. If he lied about that, who knows what the hell else that came out of his mouth was completely contrived.

Muzz, you're sitting there saying the same thing I am. Charnel is lynchable, but not without more scum hunting. BC is scummy, etc. Why don't you support the lynch?

No, then we are looking at claims and stuff in stead of really scumhunting.

Excuse me? Did you really just say that we should be relying on claims

INSTEAD

of scum hunting?

[hohum]

@Baltar: the hole in your logic is this: If charnel were scum and BC were town, it would be in charnel's best interest to let us lynch BC. It's a free kill, puts us in lylo tomorrow and has the added convenience of making me look ridiculously scummy.

Charnel realized at some point that he tied himself to BC so he's doing everything he can do to save egruntz right now.

[hohum]

Hohum, what did you think of Octupis' last few posts?

Too much WIFOM.

Also, can you provide a list of all the players and rate them on a scale of town, null, scum.

No.

[hohum]

Hohum: there is no option I am going to get you into a lynch of someone else?

You don't need my cooperation to lynch someone else. There's 5 other people in this game that you can convince to vote along side of you.

[hohum]

@Mod: can we get a deadline please? Otherwise this debate is going to rage on until the end of time.

Already exists. I will add it to the first post.

[hohum]

Hohum: there is no option I am going to get you into a lynch of someone else?

You don't need my cooperation to lynch someone else. There's 5 other people in this game that you can convince to vote along side of you.

but since I think you are town, and town needs 4 out of 5 on a lynch, it is a good idea to have you there too. and I really have doubts about BC.

@Charnel: You seem to have done an about face in that last post regarding your stance on BC. Did post 266 strike a nerve, or what?

[hohum]

L-2. More egrunts votes please.

[hohum]

L-1.

Charnel: care to hammer?

[hohum]

You're going to lose two town members in the first set phase. At least wait until the deadline is reached before going through the lynch on me (

which, by the way, is when Light-Kun?

).

Plea to emotion

Feel free to self-hammer, scum.

[hohum]

Hohum, if you dont' want to elaborate on every player, fine, but you need to list your top three suspects before the day ends. I feel you have been very guarded in some ways with your suspicions and I don't like it.

You'll post the list along with my thoughts in twilight, because there's a good chance I'll be NK'd tonight. The faster you hammer the more likely it is you'll get what you want out of me because I need to do some actual work today instead of stalking this thread.

[hohum]

EBWOP: You'll get the list along with my thoughts...

[hohum]

Why do you need to talk to charnel? Do you seriously believe any answer he gives you isn't going to be skewed by your read on him?

For the love of christ, just drop the fucking hammer.

[hohum]

*sigh*

I give up. You guys can do what ever the hell you want to do.

You want my list of suspects for the scum pair? Here it is, in order from most likely scum (top) to least likely scum (bottom). Yabba: I want you especially to pay attention to this because I think you've done an excellent job rebounding from your earliest mistakes. Be extra careful about baltar.

@Charnel: for the chainsaw defense of BC/egrunts post-replacement.

@Baltar: for your stubborn refusal to go along with ANYTHING the town has done so far. You've been combative every step of the way.

@muzz: my read on you keeps wavering between slightly scum and slightly town.

@octupis: null read

@yabba: you're in fact the only person in this game I have any faith in at the moment.

[hohum]

thank fucking christ.

[hohum]

You know, you are like the most on edge stoner I know.

If you ever actually met me IRL you wouldn't think that. This is just a game, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be played competitively.

[hohum]

I'd bust out with the twilight poetry but I already did that once today

[hohum]

How about a song instead?

There is a house on Mafia Hill
They call the Rising Sun!
And it's seen the lynch
of many a poor scum
I know 'cos I was one.

[hohum]

I knew that was coming. You shouldn't have made the joke. It would have been funny to watch someone take the bad case bait.

[hohum]

So you're ready to come out of the gate tomorrow swinging at charnel then? Let's just be careful not to quick lynch.

[hohum]

I wish we could lynch in twilight. You realize he's probably not going to post until D2 begins because there's uh, 3 of us ITT calling for his blood now. I can just see the "I logged off, didn't see this until now" post flying off of his keyboard.

With any one of the three of us (you, me, yabba) he's only got 2 hot-heads to deal with.

It would be kind of pointless for him to lube up and bend over and post right now.

[hohum]

EBWOP: with any one of the 3 of us gone tonight

[hohum]

You guys really suck. That was the HARDEST lynch I've ever had to conduct. It shouldn't take 13 pages to convince 5 townies to lynch scum.

Anyways, might as well start things off on a productive note.

Vote: Charnel

[hohum]

BTW, boiled to death? Seriously? Who boils crows? Maybe this should have been a Lobster themed game

[hohum]

one more thing before I go to bed:

Dear Cop,

I'm glad to see you lived through the night. Please do not claim today unless you managed to get a guilty result on someone.

KTHNX BAI

[hohum]

I'd like to hear from Octo early this morning.

@Octo: what are your thoughts?

[hohum]

claim

confirmed town.

Being so problematic yesterday, I got investigated. The doc was also kind of clear, which makes this game with one mislynch to go an easy win. NO quicklynch, massclaim will win us this game.

How do you know you got investigated?

I don't want anyone to drop the hammer just yet. There's still a lot more to discuss.

Octu, can you expand on that statement please? Would you mind speculating on who you think the cop may have investigates yesterday and why?

[hohum]

Charnel: it isn't time to mass claim. We're not in lylo yet.

[hohum]

If we're not in lylo, and we have 2 power roles with 1 scum alive, then it's to our advantage to wait for claims. I'd rather not provide fodder for the scum team if we mislynch today.

[hohum]

@Baltar: also, don't think it hasn't escaped my attention that you asked me for a list of my suspects in twilight and one of my two neutrals mysteriously vanished. That sort of rubs me the wrong way.

[hohum]

I want to hear from Octu. It's up to him whether we claim today or not.

Why are you refusing to cooperate with anyone's questioning at L-1? That's not a productive way to save yourself.

[hohum]

I'm really tempted to hammer right now, but Baltar is also pushing for this claim and you can't both be scum.

[hohum]

oh, I can't hammer. I'm already voting you.

[hohum]

I want to hear from Octu. It's up to him whether we claim today or not.

Why are you refusing to cooperate with anyone's questioning at L-1? That's not a productive way to save yourself.

hohum, different timeszones? and my birthday.

I call major bullshit on that:

unvote first, then we can talk.

and because he told you.

Looks like outright refusal to me.

[hohum]

I'm really tempted to hammer right now, but Baltar is also pushing for this claim and you can't both be scum.

guess who the cop is?

He is

not

the doc.

Seriously?

I can't even begin to describe the level of seething ominous scum you are for that post.

[hohum]

I'm not tunneling, and I'm not misinterpreting what you said. You refused to answer a question because you can't handle the pressure votes, plain and simple.

[hohum]

I noticed you haven't unvoted.

Why are you demanding that I unvote?

I'll put some thought into the mass claim idea

AFTER I HEAR FROM OCTU

not a second before.

You can sit there and whine and bitch and call me scummy all you want.

[hohum]

octu voted charnel. not you. My bad.

[hohum]

Fine. I'll

Unvote

But you're not going to cram an opinion down my throat either. You're going to wait until Octu wakes up again, and then you're going to wait for me to sit down and game the scenarios out, and you're going to be happy to do so.

[hohum]

Good boy.

Now, I roughly sketched this out. You and Charnel are abolsutely correct in that if the scum claim a PR right now the game is over. The only chance of scum survivng a mass claim is to claim VT and hope to avoid a lynch.

It narrows the pool of suspects for D2 down to 3, because nobody is going to counterlcaim the Doc or Cop at this point. This is a good thing.

There's a chance that the cop investigation hit one of the PRs on N1 so we can't assume that we're going to get a confirmed VT through this process.

1:3 chance of hitting scum is still bad odds. If we mislynch today and the cop survives the night having two investigation results will end the game.

The only way I would support a cop claim at this point is if Baltar is the cop and got a not-guilty result on charnel.

[hohum]

Yabba: the only way the cop would have gotten no result last night is if he investigated muzz. He would have gotten a result in that case but it would have been rendered moot by the fact that muzzz was NKd.

[hohum]

I like yabba's idea of having just the VT roles claim. I'm not ready to endorse it fully yet. I need to work it into my scenarios, but on the outset it does sound reasonable. It has the benefit of protecting the cop's identity.

[hohum]

Octu: Please hold off on answering the investigate speculation question for now. Please do process and then comment on the claim scenarios on the table.

[hohum]

Vote: Baltar

You're starting to irritate me. Why dismiss a good idea even if you think he's scum? Especially a few posts after dinging me for the exact same thing.

If you really think it's a bad idea then you'd better start explaining why, because I've got a noose here with your name on it.

[hohum]

Baltar clearly isn't the cop, so no cop claim please. Thanks.

[hohum]

Can you guys please take note of what I said earlier?

C. in Charnel's logic flow is a fallacy

It would only hold true if we could confirm one of the townies and we can't. For all we know Muzz might have been investigated last night, or perhaps one of the claimed PRs. That makes the cop's investigation result useless.

Yabba's idea is a good one, because it's a compromise between what I want (no claim) and what Baltar and Charnel want (full claim)

Let the VT roles claim. Once we have 3 VT claims, if and only if the cop investigated one of the 3 should he come forward and claim, then Charnel's C. scenario works and we've one the game.

[hohum]

I hereby endorse Yabba's plan. VT only claim. It helps us narrow the suspect pool without outing the cop.

The doc I could really give a fuck about at this point. If we lose him it won't be as big of a deal as losing the cop; though, I still think the no-claim is the best course of action. We're basically giving the cop a 50/50 survival shot tonight if we mislynch, and I guess I can live with that.

[hohum]

I'm not being dense. I'm suggesting the best course of action based on what I know. Now that I know you're the cop, and charnel is a confirmed innocent I now fully endorse your plan.

If someone counterclaims you, then you're the first to die, got it?

[hohum]

@Yabba: claim please

@Baltar: stop being such a fucking baby.

[hohum]

No. I just didn't understand why you were completely ignoring the fact that charnel's proposal hinged on confirming a townie. Now I understand.

I even asked you specifically to claim if that was the case, but you went right on calling me a scum for not endorsing your dumb idea. Try to look at it from my shoes, if you can clearly see a plan with a hole in it big enough to drive a mack truck through, wouldn't you resist as well?

[hohum]

The only way I would support a cop claim at this point is if Baltar is the cop and got a not-guilty result on charnel.

You may have missed that. Clearly you're over-excited because you did a good job last night, but try to calm down a bit, read other people's posts carefully and try to consider why they're saying what they're saying.

Between octu and yabba right now, my money is on octu flipping.

[hohum]

cute. you expected anyone to pick up on that because???

[hohum]

FYI, I though octu was the cop. mostly because of my read on him and the fact that he wasn't making much sense for a little while there. That's why I was asking him specifically what he thought of the claim idea. I was trying to prompt him to breadcrumb his investigation results.

Now that I know he isn't the cop, the vote on charnel at the beginning of the day looks incredibly scummy.

@that yabba guy: Either way this flip turns out, it was a pleasure playing with you. You really pulled your shit together at the end of D1 there. If you're scum, then kudos for pulling the wool over my eye. If you're townie, then good job helping us catch scum. I have a feeling that once you get more experience under your belt, you're going to be a formidable opponent.

@Baltar: Perfect town victories are like getting a royal flush. They rarely happen, and it's almost never due to bad scum or good town, but merely lucky town and unlucky scum. If the doc protect would have succeeded last night then we could have potentially pulled it off. I was actually contemplating protecting muzz over octu but I decided to go with my original instinct -- incorrect as it turns out.

Do we really need to wait at this point? Let's just lynch them both and be done with this game.

[hohum]

My backing off of char should have been a much more obvious indication that I am the cop.

It wasn't obvious, but I did pick up on it. That's why I asked you to claim.

[hohum]

So you are basically fake claiming doc because you are scum?

If you thought Octu was the cop, why would you protect him? Docs cannot protect cops in this setup. Thanks for playing and trying to rush the lynch scum.

I thought muzzz was the cop at first. And I'll prove that to you once the game ends.

I'm not fake claiming, nobody is going to counter claim me, and if they do they're going to get lynched eventually anyways. Whether I go first or they go first makes no difference to me.

STFU and enjoy the victory.

[hohum]

Unvote, Vote Octu

simply so I'm not the hold-up in the process later.

[hohum]

I've requested another round of signups for this setup. If anyone is interested in going for round 2, please go /in yourselves now (don't bother to wait for farside) because this was an incredibly fun game.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 67#1789167

[hohum]

Yabb: I think you need to go back and reread the last couple of pages, my friend.

[hohum]

Try and use your head. You were doing so well.

[hohum]

if someone counter-claims VP the game is over, because we lynch them both and hit scum.

If someone doesn't counter-claim VP he's telling the truth and charnel is confirmed. In which case we lynch the two remaining VTs and hit scum.

Either way, this game is pretty much over.

[hohum]

It's become readily apparent after this game that in this setup, not having a D1 PR claim is critical to the town's success. So critical in fact that a PR claim on D1 should be an automatic lynch.

[hohum]

Unvote, Vote Yabba

[hohum]

Ybba: are you scum?

[hohum]

Nope.

The game is over, so you've got nothing to lose if you are.

[hohum]

*yawn*

[hohum]

Between octu and yabba right now, my money is on octu flipping.

There are reasons you guys should listen to me I'm a smart guy.

charnel should go play more newbie games, BC should never play again.

egruntz: I'M SORRY I STILL LOVE YOU!!#)(%&

[hohum]

@that yabba guy: good job, look forward to playing with you again.

[hohum]

@that yabba guy: You should make an effort to find those pushing for a lynch less suspicious. Townies need to have some conviction about their opinions in order to turn a wagon around into a successful lynch and most scum don't have the self-discipline necessary to bus their scum partner from the first page.

It has nothing to do with emotion and everything to do with focus. You should go read this article:

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... em_Lynched

BTW, I use a console-based browser to play mafia, so I didn't even know you were posting those GIFs until just now.

[hohum]

EBWOP (just to piss you off): you're hilariously egotistical but you seem not to be afraid to make a public spectacle of yourself which is a good quality to have for this game.

[hohum]

Because you said something specific to me. You told me it was okay to be suspicious of people but not to have a "top" suspect. I felt as if you were nitpicking a very fine detail and I was trying to either turn the tables on you to get you to drop scum tells or reconsider. Mostly I wanted you to piss off so that I could concentrate on getting BC lynched.

You were a very large obstacle to a BC lynch very early on, and I was going to start gunning for you next.

[hohum]

as a townie your only tool is your vote. I don't worry about looking scummy after a vote or even after wagons because a commonly employed scum tactic is to cycle through a wagon and all its members and lay the blame on thick. Usually when that happens calling people on it yields promising results. If I get lynched anyways based merely on my position on someone else's wagon chances are always better that my wagon was driven by scum, in which case I'm happy to turn myself into a lynch pig in order to catch scum smelling bacon.

[hohum]

This is one of the more awesome versions.