Newbie 814(over!)

[atma]

/confirm

[atma]

:O

mah favorite game ever!

anyway,

vote legomaniac1128

for not knowing how to bold.

[atma]

also, Meji Fan, there are two Atma Weapons, one good and one bad. (Un)Luckily for you, I am the good kind

[atma]

Unvote, Vote ATMA

Only mafiascum would give as a reason that he is a GOOD kind. Nothing personal, but that is pretty suspicious to me.

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/8994/picture1aru.png

I like to take the chance to make my favorite game be known.

[atma]

But as already said, the importance in the random voting is that it gets the game moving and leads to the actual voting and scumhunting stage. Which inevitably seems to be working.

[atma]

unvote legomaniac1128

now is as good a time as any to take off my joke vote, no reason to give anyone a bunch of votes this early anyway.

[atma]

hey guys, I didn't take my vote off legomaniac because I was worried about him being lynched or anything, but simply because it was a joke vote and it had no valid reason anyway.

As for the case on sam,
1. I don't remember exactly what has been said, but if he has truly contradicted himself then I agree with this one.
2 & 3. For these points, obviously making no effort to scumhunt is a bit fishy, but in sam's defense, there has been such little content so far that is a bit hard to scumhunt at this point. I am glad sam decided to create some content, though I open to the possibilitiy that he did this as a guise to seem like a martyr.

to seriously put a vote down this early with this little content is just silly, in my opinion. we have until august right? surely we'll want to lynch someone by then, but I'm assuming we'll have some content to go off of by then.

[atma]

I definitely fos GOTOR, for being active enough to be in the game but not active enough to give any sort of content towards finding scum. Just seems very scummy/not helpful.

[atma]

I wanted to see if he'll say anything first. But I suppose that could be a while huh?

[atma]

Also Meji, I find it odd that you are calling me out when Sam did the same thing as I.

[atma]

@meji
his post had more or less the same intention as mine did, just it was said in a way that was less forward and obvious.

@itacv2
I don't really understand what the big deal is, my vote on legomaniac was clearly a joke and since we are starting to get serious, i'm taking my vote seriously too.

[atma]

vote GOTOR13

clearly, GOTOR won't be contributing anything and it seems weird that he would bother to stop by but not say anything remotely useful. so I would be okay with this lynch.

But, also I would like to FOS Vaya, his last few posts just don't go over well with me, one is him using someone else's reasoning for his own vote without adding anything. Also, he was defending legomaniac, which seems odd. I'm pretty sure legomaniac can defend himself, just seems odd.

[atma]

why would you not want to lynch gotor13 just cause he might be replaced? fact of the matter is, you base your vote off how someone is currently, not a future possibility. its just not logical to think like that.


@vaya,

still looks like you were defending him to me but eh, that's what i see i suppose.

[atma]

Because other than not posting gotor hasnt been interesting

Up and vanishing is pretty much a null tell

Thus, I would much rather vote for interesting people

I understand what are you saying but consider this: lurking is sometimes considered to be scummy, so what if GOTOR was lurking but covering it by saying he was busy and away etc.? that was my point. but it was made sort of a moot point when mr. moderator just told us he is going to be replaced soon. eh.

[atma]

First of all,

Unvote GOTOR13/Manzcar

Now that he has been replaced, no reason for my vote to be on him at the moment.

Atma why do you want to lynch a lurker? Do you think this is pro town? Who is your top suspect and why?

As I tried to explain in a previous post, it wasn't so much the fact that he was lurking, but more the fact that he dropped by to say he was around and almost immediately turned around and said he was leaving, without providing even a single tiny snippet of content. To me, it just seemed like he was trying to lay low and not draw any attention to himself. That being said, as his replacement, you are seeming much more pro-town, so perhaps it is good he was replaced.

And yes, I consider voting someone I find to be suspicious pro-town.

As for my suspects, I just did a quick reread of the topic to try to gather my opinions again. Most people seem to be agreeing that itavc is being scummy, and I think I will have to agree as well. Manzcar and Sudai's posts highlighted this fact quite well. As I went back through the topic and reread itavc's posts, each subsequent post seems to get more and more scummy. He started by casting suspicion on me and legomaniac but soon jumped ship and OMGUS voted sam.

To me, it seems as we grow suspicious of itavc, it is shaking his confidence. His posts are overflowing with emotion and he is making threats and such. If you were really town, what would you have to be so afraid of? But he hasn't said anything in a bit, so I want to see his response to some of these newer posts before I vote him.

As for secondary suspicions, I think most we can all agree that legomaniac jumping votes all over is scummy, but I'm not sure whether to think of that as bad play or him being scum yet. I want to see him post some real content soon as well, cause he hasn't really said much of anything of interest.

I also slightly fos Vaya, as I said earlier for reasons I posted in post 124. But this could also be me over-analyzing things, so I'm not too worried about it yet.


IN SUMMARY:
itavc seems scummy, mostly because of his OMGUS vote on sam, and at this current moment I would be in favor of his lynch. I would also be okay with a legomaniac lynch.

Itavc, legomaniac, and evil sonidow all really need to make some new posts with some good content IMO. We hardly even know anything about Evil Sonidow, so I'm interested in seeing how he reacts.



Also, one more thing. Correct me if i'm wrong, but wouldn't it be advantageous for us to lynch on day 1? If so, the deadline is this saturday and so personally, I would like to get alot of this stuff that is hanging around all sorted out by then.



[/b]

[atma]

Whoa, rereading all of Evil Sonidow's posts was fast and easy . . . . theres well, 7 of them

Of which 4 were game related

Okay, I think Evil Sonidow is somewhat interesting, lurking can be suspicious and scummy, and is definitely not fun play. And voting GOTOR13 for contributing nothing is extremely hypocritical

I still think I like itacv2 though, but Evil Sonidow is interesting

now that you mention it, I forgot to fos Evil Sonidow. I completely forgot about him in the first half of my post, he is just kinda forgettable. But yeah he's somewhat suspicious, moreso than vaya, but less so than itavc. Like I said, he needs to start talking more so we can get some info on who he is/what he's like.

[atma]

No lynch is a very bad idea. You're misinterpreting the chart, because it assumes we start at night 0 and mafia gets a kill every night, it's saying that we have a higher chance of winning when we come into the day with an odd number of players. Also, the information we get at a death is very valuable, such as the person's alignment, and who was voting and not voting for them. So it's better if we lynch every day.

Vaya hit the mark with this, I agree with this completely. Assuming we have a mislynch (and we do), we should certainly lynch. Like Vaya said, I think the advantage is in having an odd number going into the day, which means we are in the right place. And really, if a majority of town thinks one person is scummy, why would you not lynch them if it's not mylo? it just makes sense.

So there's my opinion Sudai, even though you didn't want it.


@sam
I find it unsettling that you are unwilling to reveal your suspicions. Really, what reason to you have not to say them? Is it not anti-town to hold back clues as to who scum may be? Personally, I think you should reveal this to us before the day ends. If you're worried about your target of suspicion causing a debate or something of the sort, I highly doubt anyone would do anything major to distract attention away from itavc, unless of course they are both maf, but that seems unlikely.



Also, one more thing regarding Sudai's no lynch argument: I heard somewhere that discussing alot of numbers is sometimes a scumtell, because it's a way of looking like you are contributing content when you aren't really. I'm just telling you guys this so you know. But really, relying on statistics in a chart as a basis for not lynching someone you believe to be scum just doesn't sit well with me.

[atma]

Alright, I'll see you all on day two. Night all.

thanks for giving us all of 12 minutes to check this topic. see ya scum.

[atma]

Atma, what do you make of Sam’s charge that you are scum? What do you think of legomaniac?

Well, sam still has yet to name his charges so I will address them when he states them. I think it is noble that he is scumhunting though, albeit upon the wrong person.

As for legomaniac, I feel that he is clearly the most scummy and unless something turns around, I believe he would be the best choice for a lynch today. However, now that itavc, the one we were all pretty sure was scum, flipped town, I am a bit worried that all is not as obvious as it seems. This is a newbie game after all. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I would like to see him post some real content soon. If continues to dodge questions and vote/BW randomly then I will vote for him/push for his lynch.

As for the moment, now that we have two confirmed townies dead, I am about to go back and read their posts to see what I can gather from a guaranteed non-mafia viewpoint. I am not sure that everything itavc said was actually intelligent, but Meji at least I expect to gain some insight from.

I'll get back to this later, the rest of my suspicions I will get back to as people start to show up and talk again.

[atma]

Okay I just reread a lot of the topic.

Itavc initially believed me and legomaniac to be scum, then quickly changed to thinking sam was scum with little explanation. I'm not sure what to make of him and his suspicions in all honesty, they could just as easily be true as they could be wildly false.

Meji Fan, ignoring suspicions of itavc, mainly suspected legomaniac. But, Meji Fan was also the first one to bring up the idea of Evil Sonidow being scummy for lurking. Is it possible Meji was killed to cast away suspicion from Evil Sonidow? Something to think about, though I too expressed some doubts towards Evil Sonidow.

That being said, it could be argued that following the dead townie's fos is good, because its from a guaranteed town perspective, but it could easily be wrong. Something to think about as well.

I do have a few questions for Sudai though:
You said on the previous page that you have a list of reasons why you believe legomaniac is a newbie, or something to that effect. Could you tell us something about this?

Why did you post inferring that legomaniac is a newbie town, then post again shortly thereafter reassuring us that you still think he is scum? Clearly, quite a few of us were suspicious of him as well, that serious of posts just seemed to me like you were trying to cover yourself from seeming like you were defending him.

And one of your first posts was a huge compilation of how scummy you thought itavc was. If this is true, why did you propose the idea of not lynching? Don't you want to lynch scum?

[atma]

Hmm interesting. Evil Sonidow finally makes a move, though it baffles me that he is voting for the one person I am most sure is town. I find it strange that he suddenly has so much to contribute. Almost seems as if his maf partner told him that he has to contribute more. But that could be overthinking things.

Legomaniac, you continue to remain really scummy by once again, not providing any sort of content whatsoever. You seem to just be playing it very safe by band wagoning off of others votes while not suspecting anyone yourself, or even thinking of your own ideas. You seem hesitant to scumhunt and give us your opinion. Why might that be? Perhaps you are scum trying to avoid attention or a slip-up.

I find something to just be a little off with Sudai, which is based on the questions I asked him on this page, and also his response to my questions. He has many reasons to be suspicious of legmaniac, but then claims that Evil Sonidow is his main suspect based on lurking alone. Kind of a cop out reason to suspect someone really. (Remember, this was before Evil Sonidow posted on this page.)

Anyway, I have compiled a mental list that ranks you guys in order of who I find most to least scummy. I can't decide if this is a good or bad thing to post though, as I hate to make it the basis for a mafia kill. Opinions?

[atma]

Yeah now that I think about it, posting such a list wouldn't be very helpful and could only be harmful perhaps.

That being said, legomaniac once again looks really really scummy. Manzcar probably wants you dead because of how scummy you are, lego. And he isn't trying to look you make scummy either, he's just pointing out how you make yourself look scummy. Recycled Evil Sonidow's reason for voting Manzcar. Still does not actually vote, he seems afraid to vote, in fact. His last two sentences make little sense. This is the nail in the coffin for me, and I would be okay with a legomaniac lynch.

Vote: legomaniac1128

[atma]

OK I'm still thinking atma. Let me take another look through the thread and recompile my evidence.

Still waiting on this.

As am I.

Also, wtf at legomaniac, he's just OMGUS everyone who fos/votes him.

[atma]

I think it is quite obvious by now that lego is all talk and no walk. He talks all the time about how just about everyone is mafia, yet presents no evidence. He ignores questions, or gives cop out answers.

In his last post, he even said he would try to help out.... yet this was his last sentence. If he were really trying to help out, he would have done some scumhunting. I realize that my votes puts him at L-1, but I honestly don't mind because I am confident in my vote. That is all.

[atma]

Atma says

vote GOTOR13

clearly, GOTOR won't be contributing anything and it seems weird that he would bother to stop by but not say anything remotely useful. so I would be okay with this lynch.

But, also I would like to FOS Vaya, his last few posts just don't go over well with me, one is him using someone else's reasoning for his own vote without adding anything. Also, he was defending legomaniac, which seems odd. I'm pretty sure legomaniac can defend himself, just seems odd.

Vaya defends lego than lego says it makes no sense to think that Vaya is being scummy. I find the exchange between the two strange. Atma what do you think about this?

As I said then, I did find the exchange to be strange. It seemed to be like they were covering for each other. Now obviously, this is a bit moot now that Vaya has claimed cop, so I'll continue with that now.

Vaya, I'm going to assume you are really the cop because I can't see a situation in which mafia would fake claim cop right now. If you were fake claiming cop, it would make sense that you want to lynch sam because then we would get lego tomorrow and mafia wins right there, assuming you framed two people. But that seems highly unlikely.

I do believe it was a mistake to claim cop though. Legomaniac seemed likely to be lynched and it appears that he is scum. Right now, having claimed cop, you will die tomorrow night I believe. Correct me if I am wrong, but I recall reading that there is only one town power role. I would have preferred you waiting a night and getting another report. Hell, there might even be a mafia roleblocker, so I suppose you may live simply to be roleblocked.

If we lynch sam today like you say, it will be lylo tomorrow. We would then lynch lego, ending up in 3 way unclear lylo.

If we lynch lego today (once again, assuming he will flip scum), we end up with 5 people left, one being mafia. This gives us a mislynch. Thus, I believe lynching lego today is the best option.

The only reason we would not lynch lego today is if we believe you and how confident you are about sam being scum.

That being said, I am still on the fence about whether sam is scum or not. It is possible he is simply busy with his life. I'd like to see what he has to say at the very least before we make any effort at lynching him.

[atma]

Okay I was typing that all up before I saw the three or so latest posts, so Vaya the main point I want to get across is this: By lynching legomaniac today, if he is scum, we gain a mislynch tomorrow. If he is not scum, we find out that you are lying. Personally, I see no real reason not to lynch lego.

[atma]

Alright, I understand your point a little better now Vaya. From your point of view, it does make sense to lynch your suspect for the other scum, Sam. However, unfortunately, for the rest of us, we should be a little hesitant due to the fact that you could be lying, leading to a near instant town loss. You give us reasons why you would not fake cop, and while I am inclined to believe you are the real cop, it may not be best to follow you necessarily.

Here's what it comes down to I think. If we want to play it safe, to make absolutely sure we won't lose anytime soon, then we want to lynch lego today to see if he is scum and Vaya is really cop. There is a slight chance I suppose that Vaya could be lego's mafia buddy, but it seems very dangerous for Vaya to claim cop with the potential of there being a real cop.

If town is willing to be a bit more ballsy, we would listen to Vaya's idea and lynch someone today, likely sam as it looks now. We could then lynch lego regardless and if we're lucky, we won the game. If we're unlucky, Vaya won the game.

Anyone want to comment on my assessment of the situation? And would we prefer to take the safest route, or take a chance at Vaya being real cop/Sam being mafia?

Personally, I am leaning towards lynching legomaniac and taking the safe route, but I would like to hear from the rest of you before we end this day.

[atma]

Okay so I took the opportunity to go back and read all of sam's posts, and Vaya is absolutely right about one thing: Sam simply has ignored lego completely. He has not said anything of worth to or about lego. I didn't notice this before, but I find it interesting at least. Sam was not very high on my list of suspects, which is why I said I was on the fence. This does kind of portray him in a negative light if we assume lego is scum. Then again Vaya, lynching lego on this day might actually help your case against sam for tomorrow, as we will know for certain whether lego is truly scum or not.

I also agree with Manzcar on something: I have found a reason to be suspicious of just about everybody, which makes this game that much harder. I would like sam to actually post, and I also would like to hear the rest of your opinions on the possibility of sam being scum, and who to lynch today.

[atma]

Sam, you've been saying you'll post your thoughts on me for the past week or so. It seems you would know your reasons pretty well then, so I wonder why it is taking so long. Though I must say, it is much harder to create reasons for why I am mafia if you yourself are mafia.

[atma]

No reason not to lynch lego today, IMO. Though we should wait for sam and for more conversation first.

[atma]

obvious reasons? I thought you suspected him of scum...

That being said, I stand corrected regarding my last post: I can see how it might be beneficial to use a mislynch today after all. But Manzcar's point about outing a doc still stands, though we could just risk it really.

[atma]

Alright I just thought of something else guys. Here's how I see our options:

(this is all assuming Vaya is a real cop and legomaniac is a real scum)

Choice 1: We lynch legomaniac as a known scum.
Advantages:
- we lynch a known scum, meaning we get one for sure mislynch tomorrow. and if mafia targets cop and doc saves cop, we are up an extra player and a cop report.

Disadvantages:
- if there is no doctor, Vaya will die and we're back at square one.
- Vaya loses the chance to argue a case for someone he thinks is scum (sam, as it seems)


Choice 2: We use a mislynch on someone we think to be scum
Advantages:
- if we are right, we have an easy victory
- we could hit a mafia roleblocker, considering lego claimed normal goon (if he is to be trusted)
- we have a somewhat clear doctor to follow a mislynch from.

Disadvantages:
- we risk outing a possible doctor
- if wrong, we are at square one in three-way lylo two days from now.
- something else that I forgot at the moment.


One thing I just realized is that we will have no more cop reports because either A) there is no doctor and mafia kills cop tomorrow or B) there is a doctor, but that means there is a roleblocker if I remember correctly, meaning no cop report. But if B is the case we have a probable clear for tomorrow if they let Vaya live and try to hit doc.

I would like to hear all your opinions on what you want to do. As for me, I am not 100% decided, though I am leaning towards lynching lego slightly.

[atma]

****Choice 2, that last advantage, I meant to say we have a somewhat clear COP to follow a mislynch from, not doctor.

[atma]

I wanted to hear all of sam's stuff today, but if he refuses then there is no reason not to hammer.

[atma]

sorry guys, i'm super busy until tomorrow evening hopefully, so I am here and I will try to get back to you tomorrow.

[atma]

Alright sorry this took so long. I haven’t had any kind of detailed post in forever.

Here, way back in day one, is what originally piqued my interest in atma:

vote GOTOR13

clearly, GOTOR won't be contributing anything and it seems weird that he would bother to stop by but not say anything remotely useful. so I would be okay with this lynch.

But, also I would like to FOS Vaya, his last few posts just don't go over well with me, one is him using someone else's reasoning for his own vote without adding anything. Also, he was defending legomaniac, which seems odd. I'm pretty sure legomaniac can defend himself, just seems odd.

This post in and of itself didn’t seem too harmless but I made a mental note to watch where atma would go with his vote of GOTOR. There was a difference in reasoning between when I voted for GOTOR and why atma did; mine was a clear policy vote because GOTOR didn’t seem interested in participating at all and I voted him with the message “either post or get replaced, please.”

Atma seemingly used hit vote on GOTOR as a legitimate post for lurking, which I’ve never bought into. So I kept watch. Here’s what came after:

My vote was on GOTOR was not because of his lurking, but because of his posting without providing any sort of content. Which appears to be the same reason as you, except I didn't make a lame excuse such as calling it a policy vote.

why would you not want to lynch gotor13 just cause he might be replaced? fact of the matter is, you base your vote off how someone is currently, not a future possibility. its just not logical to think like that.

I understand what are you saying but consider this: lurking is sometimes considered to be scummy, so what if GOTOR was lurking but covering it by saying he was busy and away etc.? that was my point. but it was made sort of a moot point when mr. moderator just told us he is going to be replaced soon. eh.

Later he admitted that he didn’t know GOTOR was just inactive and vanished out of nowhere and unvoted him. But his reasons for voting him seemed really scummy-opportunistic, as he fruitfully attacked a lurker and tried to use it as a legitimate case.

What I was trying to say essentially, was that lurking is not a reason to NOT vote somebody. Voting for a lurker does not make me scummy, voting solely for the reason of lurking is scummy. Which, as I stated, was not the reason I voted him.

What really got me was this post though:

First of all,

Unvote GOTOR13/Manzcar

Now that he has been replaced, no reason for my vote to be on him at the moment.

Atma why do you want to lynch a lurker? Do you think this is pro town? Who is your top suspect and why?

As I tried to explain in a previous post, it wasn't so much the fact that he was lurking, but more the fact that he dropped by to say he was around and almost immediately turned around and said he was leaving, without providing even a single tiny snippet of content. To me, it just seemed like he was trying to lay low and not draw any attention to himself. That being said, as his replacement, you are seeming much more pro-town, so perhaps it is good he was replaced.

And yes, I consider voting someone I find to be suspicious pro-town.

As for my suspects, I just did a quick reread of the topic to try to gather my opinions again. Most people seem to be agreeing that itavc is being scummy, and I think I will have to agree as well. Manzcar and Sudai's posts highlighted this fact quite well. As I went back through the topic and reread itavc's posts, each subsequent post seems to get more and more scummy. He started by casting suspicion on me and legomaniac but soon jumped ship and OMGUS voted sam.

To me, it seems as we grow suspicious of itavc, it is shaking his confidence. His posts are overflowing with emotion and he is making threats and such. If you were really town, what would you have to be so afraid of? But he hasn't said anything in a bit, so I want to see his response to some of these newer posts before I vote him.

As for secondary suspicions, I think most we can all agree that legomaniac jumping votes all over is scummy, but I'm not sure whether to think of that as bad play or him being scum yet. I want to see him post some real content soon as well, cause he hasn't really said much of anything of interest.

I also slightly fos Vaya, as I said earlier for reasons I posted in post 124. But this could also be me over-analyzing things, so I'm not too worried about it yet.


IN SUMMARY:
itavc seems scummy, mostly because of his OMGUS vote on sam, and at this current moment I would be in favor of his lynch. I would also be okay with a legomaniac lynch.

Itavc, legomaniac, and evil sonidow all really need to make some new posts with some good content IMO. We hardly even know anything about Evil Sonidow, so I'm interested in seeing how he reacts.



Also, one more thing. Correct me if i'm wrong, but wouldn't it be advantageous for us to lynch on day 1? If so, the deadline is this saturday and so personally, I would like to get alot of this stuff that is hanging around all sorted out by then.
[/b]

You reread a thread and don’t come up with anything other than generalized observations? Recaps of what’s happened? No top scum suspects, nothing you find at all? This is a classic example of “talking a lot but saying nothing.”

I haven’t been able to get as good of a read on his day two posts since I’ve been busy/away/catching up the majority of today, but I’ve noticed quite a bit of words that don’t wrap around a particular point, as if he’s talking in order to contribute or make it seem like he’s not lurking.

Where did you get the idea that I didn't come up with anything and had no suspects? Clearly, if you actually read the post you quoted, I listed several people I found suspicious and reasons why I thought so. You, sir, are trying to use my words against me.

Here’s a quick example:

Alright, I understand your point a little better now Vaya. From your point of view, it does make sense to lynch your suspect for the other scum, Sam. However, unfortunately, for the rest of us, we should be a little hesitant due to the fact that you could be lying, leading to a near instant town loss. You give us reasons why you would not fake cop, and while I am inclined to believe you are the real cop, it may not be best to follow you necessarily.

Here's what it comes down to I think. If we want to play it safe, to make absolutely sure we won't lose anytime soon, then we want to lynch lego today to see if he is scum and Vaya is really cop. There is a slight chance I suppose that Vaya could be lego's mafia buddy, but it seems very dangerous for Vaya to claim cop with the potential of there being a real cop.

I don’t really like how he’s taking one sentence and turning it into three; it’s like he’s trying to bullshit his way through a college research paper. Except with this I feel he’s trying to bullshit the town into thinking he’s town.

Really, you're basing your entire argument for why I am scum based on the fact that I tend to be a wordy poster. Considering you don't even know me, how are you to know this isn't just the way that I type. The reason I type so much is because I type steam-of-consciousness as I think it, so what you see tends to be my scattered and unorganized thoughts. Rereading through this post of mine that you picked out, I honestly can't find much that wasn't necessary to the ideas I was trying to convey. Length of posts =/= bullshit, false reasons = bullshit.


quote tag fixed[/quote]

[atma]

Regarding sam's previous two posts,

You claim that you were on the fence and that you thought legomaniac could have been confused town and not scum, but you didn't TELL us this. Why is
The fact still remains that you completely avoided mentioned legomaniac at all, despite the fact that he was one of the main points of discussion.

Also, you somehow expect us to know your playstyle and compensate or even forgive you because of it? You are metagaming yourself, which as I always say, is kind of a bullshit excuse for something. "I look scummy because that's just the way I do things." I'm sorry, but I will not let something like that be shrugged off simply because YOU say that that is the way you play.

And you don't consider player interactions when determining scum? Are you kidding me, I can see how you might not regard them as highly as other players, but to write all player interactions off entirely is ignoring an entire aspect of the game. What do you base your suspicions off of then? Oh yeah wait, you base it off of the length of someone's posts.

[atma]

same here, just been busy and I just got my prod. I'll be back to post something when I have a bit more time.

[atma]

Well for one, I would like to hear everyone's opinion on sam. Vaya felt strongly that sam was mafia and now we know for sure that vaya was cop.

As for my opinion on sam, I originally did not think sam to be scummy, but upon questioning by Vaya, I felt that alot of his answers were scummy. I'm not confident enough to say he is my main suspect though. I need to hear more info from the all of you before I can really say for sure.

One thing that occurred to me yesterday, though, that I felt would best be saved for this day, is the analysis of lego's voting. We know now that lego is a new player and that his vote hopped around. While Vaya was talking about how sam ignored lego, I was thinking that perhaps lego avoided his scum partner.

He voted for these people: Meji Fan, Brandor/Sudai (though these two were the beginning kinda-random votes), itacv2, atma.
He FOS'd these people: itacv, sam, Manzcar.
The people he neither voted for or fos'd are: Vaya and Evil Sonidow.

Now, I realize this doesn't necessarily mean anything, but it is mildly interesting that he never mentioned anything about Evil Sonidow. Though with Vaya being town as well, this may be a moot point. I also found Evil Sonidow's vote on Manzcar to be a bit strange.

That's what I got for the moment, if some of you could post your thoughts regarding the sam/vaya issue, that would be helpful.

[atma]

Well, while I do think some of sam's answers are scummy, I'm still not confident he is mafia. Evil Sonidow seems scummy because of his following Manzcar and Vaya without adding any content or reasons of his own.

Since we do have a mislynch, I'm trying to decide if I should hammer sam or try to lead a case against someone else. I think Evil Sonidow, sam, and Sudai all are scummy in some way, just I'm trying to figure out which would be mafia, or which is most scummy, etc.

We don't need to rush a hammer yet anyway right?

[atma]

Well, while I do think some of sam's answers are scummy, I'm still not confident he is mafia. Evil Sonidow seems scummy because of his following Manzcar and Vaya without adding any content or reasons of his own.

Since we do have a mislynch, I'm trying to decide if I should hammer sam or try to lead a case against someone else. I think Evil Sonidow, sam, and Sudai all are scummy in some way, just I'm trying to figure out which would be mafia, or which is most scummy, etc.

We don't need to rush a hammer yet anyway right?

No need to rush hammer, we still have a lot to discuss. I don't think I'm looking scummy, I believe that's more like bad gaming (since I am a bad player, being my first game {and comparing my posts to others}).

No we have plenty of time. Evil what do you think of the allocations against you?

Like I said before, it's bad gaming on my part, and my efforts to prove it have been useless. I'd rather not mislynch today, so feel free to question my actions as I want to prove to you I'm town and help us find the right person.

You're a good idea for a lynch tomorrow, if I'm lynched.

I know that, hopefully will be changed.

I feel a little bit uneasy about Evil playing the whole "I'm new" card. I mean obviously a lot of us are new since this is a newbie game. It's just kind of a cop out excuse, but then again so is Sam's "This is how I always play." Not sure whether to read these as scummy or not.

Something got me thinking lately, and that was Lego 'last words':

Well, the cats out of the bag. I'm a plain old Goon. Nothing more, nothing less. I would provide more information, but I feel like having a bit of suspense in a game. An actor would know that the game isn't over till' the last mafia hangs. That's all I have to say. At least my scumbuddy learned something. :lol:
Hang me if you want, there's still one left!!! :lol:
And you'll never get him!!! :lol:

Whoever is the other goon, it's playing really well and it's off the scumradar. I'm starting to consider that's not Sam, but rather atma/Sudai, leaning to atma (I've rechecked Sudai posts but since he's been away due to his grandfather {which btw I hope he's better} there's not much stuff to check).
So, atma, I ask you this: can you detail why Sudai is your in your suspect list? (I don't think there's much explaining why he thinks Sam/me look scummy).

Hmm this is actually a good point, but it depends, did lego say that quote before or after Vaya named Sam as her main suspect? If that quote was beforehand, it doesn't help much, but if Lego said that after Vaya named dropped Sam, I might have to agree with you that it makes Sam look less like scum.

Also, in regards to my suspicion of Sudai, I mentioned it a long time ago, definitely before cop claimed, so I honestly don't remember the exact reasons why, but I will also check that and post again. I do remember that part of it was just a gut feeling about him though.

[atma]

Okay, I reread the topic and checked up upon a few things.

Lego's last words were said AFTER Vaya claimed cop and said Sam was mafia. In my opinion, this makes Sam look a lot better, as Lego said we'll never catch him, implying the mafia man was not under suspicion. Also, he said his partner learned something, leading me to believe his partner is someone new and not Sam, the experienced one of the group. And I doubt legomaniac, being new himself, would think to lie about all that in order to trick us. In fact, I would wager he didn't realize he left some hints at all.


As for my suspicion towards Sudai, I will summarize what I said in earlier posts. For one, I found it strange to not just suggest a no lynch, but to suggest it based on statistics he found somewhere. Especially since he said he found itavc to be scummy, so it seemed strange he would want to no lynch.
Also, he made a point to say he thought lego was town, and then immediately posted again saying he thought was scummy, sort of as an afterthought. It seemed to me like he was covering himself to not look like he was sided one way or another too much.


Unfortunately, I haven't gathered much more from him due to his recent inactivity. Anyway, I'd like to hear what you guys think on this some more. I'm cautiously leaning more towards a Evil/Sudai lynch now.

[atma]

Manzcar, yes the thread is slow, but I believe I addressed a few interesting points in my posts.

Manzcar, I would like to know what you think in regards to lego's last words. Do you think this is a reasonable assumption I reached or no?

[atma]

I realized that Lego's words could easily be WIFOM, but as sam said, lego was obviously a new player and I'm not convinced he would think to say such wifom. Though I suppose basing the entirety of anything off of his words would be foolish. Especially because sam continues to seem scummy to me.

Though I have been having a hard time trying to find anything scummy about Manzcar, and no one seems to suspect him at all, which bothers me a tiny bit. Hmm.

[atma]

Okay so here's the thing: I am more confident in a Sudai/Evil Sonidow lynch right now than a sam lynch. However, there is nothing I could do to change the vote to Sudai since there are two votes already on sam. I wouldn't mind hammering on sam, just that I would prefer lynching one of my other suspects. Sam has been scummy though so I wouldn't be opposed to hammering him.

Sam, could you perhaps give some reasoning for your FOS on Sudai? Cause just calling names out doesn't really help your case.

And I really wish Sudai/Evil Sonidow would have said more this day, because I need to get a current read on them.

Anyway, I suppose I'll wait for a bit to see if anyone else shows up, but if you guys are ready then I can hammer whenever.

[atma]

Vote atma.

His sudden suspicion on Manzcar bothers me since, although I disagree with the way he applies his method, he has clearly been looking pro-town the whole time. Besides, your behavior is looking too strange for me.

Point out the place where I said I suspected Manzcar.

Oh wait, I never said that. Don't put words in my mouth, you sir, are a scumball.

[atma]

Any one else wanna back an Evil Sonidow lynch with me? He votes me based on a false accusation and then says I just seem strange without providing any evidence of such a claim.

[atma]

Though I have been having a hard time trying to find anything scummy about Manzcar, and no one seems to suspect him at all, which bothers me a tiny bit

I read that as a suspicion, otherwise there's no reason to be bothered with.
You'll be doing a mistake lynching me (this is not a threat, if anyone may think that), but you'll be wasting a day. I'm keeping my vote on atma, as I believe he's scum. More like gut feeling than anything, but still.

I believe I have said before that I believe Manzcar to be town. I was merely pointing out that no one finds him suspicious. I didn't say anything to insinuate that I found him suspicious. In fact, I blatantly said he wasn't scummy. And now you're defending your vote on me by copping out and saying it's your gut. With that being said,

vote Evil Sonidow

.

One last thing @ sam, in the event that Evil Sonidow would flip town, why would you vote me then? Do you not agree that he is being scummy? And it's not like I can be his mafia buddy or anything. If he were to flip town it simply means that I lynched someone scummy and I happened to be wrong. In fact, didn't you yourself lead a lynch on itacv, the townie? Yet no one auto-voted you for that.

[atma]

okay here goes:

1. I found his vote on you in the previous day to be scummy. Not his FOS, but his counter vote which he placed after you voted him. He failed to provide adequate reasons for his vote besides that he thought your questioning was scummy (something I disagree with)

2. His failure to provide an adequate reason for his vote on sam. Reading his post, he claimed that sam's saying that he had a valid claim against him was scummy (something else I disagree with). Also, he provided no other reason for his vote except "Vaya said so."

3. When his playing was called into question, he passed his scumminess off as due to bad playing. This just doesn't sit well with me and seems like a cop out answer.

4. Lastly and most recently, his sudden change of vote on me for two reasons, one of which was something I never actually said or insinuated, and the other of which is "his gut".


I certainly find him to be scummy.


However, what bothers me right now is that my other suspect, Sudai, seems to be flying under the radar right now. It occurred to me that if he is scum, perhaps he is simply waiting the day out so he doesn't draw suspicion on himself and guarantees himself a spot in the end. I want a Sudai/Evil Sonidow lynch either way.

[atma]

1. I found his vote on you in the previous day to be scummy. Not his FOS, but his counter vote which he placed after you voted him. He failed to provide adequate reasons for his vote besides that he thought your questioning was scummy (something I disagree with)

I found it excessive questioning. Manzcar has been laying out precise and concise questions now, and this has made me change my mind.

I interpreted it as him trying to catch up on what had been happening, since he was a replacement.

2. His failure to provide an adequate reason for his vote on sam. Reading his post, he claimed that sam's saying that he had a valid claim against him was scummy (something else I disagree with). Also, he provided no other reason for his vote except "Vaya said so."

Can you explain this to me, because I'm not quite sure if I understand what you think I meant. What I said was that no townie should agree that people have valid cases agaisnt him/her, as in "That is a good case agaisnt me."[/quote]

I know what you mean, I was disagreeing with it. A townie certainly can agree that there are valid cases against them, as townies can sometimes act scummy, meaning the reasoning is justified.

3. When his playing was called into question, he passed his scumminess off as due to bad playing. This just doesn't sit well with me and seems like a cop out answer.

I cannot change what you believe in regards to that, so I don't have a response for this.

4. Lastly and most recently, his sudden change of vote on me for two reasons, one of which was something I never actually said or insinuated, and the other of which is "his gut".

It seemed like to me that you had insinuated. I trust my gut enough to vote based on it solely (for now).[/quote]

I was simply pointing out that no one really suspects him at all. If it wasn't clear then, let me make it clear now: I don't think Manzcar is scum.

If you're wondering how I'm feeling, you're reasoning failed to persuade me either way.

[atma]

@Manzcar

I did find it to be scummy, though I didn't want to spark up such a debate in the last remaining days of the umm day. He said his main suspect was Sudai. I also said my secondary suspect was Sudai. So I wonder why he didn't bother to try to get me to lynch Sudai with him. Especially since he didn't seem to find Evil scummy, he was just saving himself. Which I understand from his point of view, but at the same time he didn't really make an effort to lynch who he thought was scum.


What I'm still trying to figure out is why Sudai of all people died? Me and Sam both outwardly suspected him, so it seems like it would have been in mafia's favor to keep him around.

I could kind of see it two different ways. If sam is mafia, proclaiming he would vote me tomorrow if Evil was town could be a way to sort of cover his ass and give him a reason to vote me. Then perhaps he killed Sudai because he thought Manzcar would get his reasoning or something.

If Manzcar is mafia, then it makes a bit more sense, cause by killing Sudai, he expects Sam to follow up with his promise to vote me, which would be a somewhat easy win for Manzcar. So obviously we have to be a bit more careful with voting today.

If you had asked me yesterday who my next suspect was after Sudai and Evil, I would have said Sam, no doubt. But now I'm having second thoughts.

So Manzcar, I must ask, why are you alive? I thought you were going to die last night to be honest, because me, sam, and sudai all suspected each other.

Sam, do you still suspect me? Could you explain why you said you would vote me today if Evil flipped town?

And what do you guys think of Sudai's death? Am I over-analyzing it, or do you think it means something?

[atma]

As I tried to explain, me and Sam both expressed our suspicion of Sudai. Thus, it seemed like it would be in the mafia's favor to keep Sudai alive as me and sam were leaning towards him being mafia. Also, personally at least, I've found you to be fairly pro town, at least more so than Sam or Sudai. Make sense?

[atma]

I already explained this. I don't understand why scum sam or scum atma would want you in the last day over Sudai. That's my whole point.

[atma]

Manzcar, in no way have I decided that you are mafia yet. I am simply speculating at this point. I still think there is a very good chance it is sam, as he has been a suspect of mine in the past. And I realize that the night kill is not a tell-all for who scum is, I'm simply trying to look for hints and think of why or why not each of you could be scum. It would be worse if I were to get tunnelvision and ignore you and only go after Sam, or vice versa, etc.

You're sort of turning my words against me by saying that I think you must be scum. I think I didn't type as much as I meant to regarding Sam being mafia, but I still strongly suspect him, just I am reasoning why it could be you as well.

Let me ask you this Manzcar, if I were scum, why would I suspect you at all? Isn't Sam clearly a more scummy, and therefore, a more viable target?

Anyway, I'm waiting to hear a bit more from Sam. So far I'm still kinda on the fence.

[atma]

I was asking you to speculate, but apparently you refuse. I need sam in here too. Perhaps I should build a case against Sam since it seems you might vote me and I don't want that to happen.

[atma]

Vote: Manzcar

[atma]

Okay I will speculate. Atma you are scum. First you rode itvac down when he suspected you and what's his name of being scum. Turned out Lego was scum. Day two when I started turning up the heat onlego you started to wonder if not all was what it seemed. Then when Lego was confirmed you hesitated to making him the lynch to try and get some other possible scum. On the last day you switched from the main suspect to a lurked with hardly any evidence. Got Sam to save his own neck and got sudai to vote when hedidnt care any more. You set up the scenario that legos last words meant something by stating that the person who is scum mist not be a suspect. Then today you start to wonder why I am still alive. So tell me why did you leave me alive?

Okay even thought the game is done, I'm going to explain a little bit. I actually didn't ride itavc down, I actually was one of the least vocal about his scumminess. In fact, I didn't even vote for him.

Day two, I actually voted Lego and wanted to lynch him, BEFORE Vaya revealed he had a guilty on lego. I only suggested lynching someone else because I was entertaining Vaya's idea, i was trying to seem town actually.

Yes, I setup Evil Sonidow, though I didn't plan on it working so well I must admit. I planned on just voting him and having Sam being lynched anyway or whatever.

I don't understand what you're saying about lego's last words. That was me scumhunting to look town.

As for why I kept you alive, it was partially so we didn't have to bother finding a replacement, as I messaged the mod right after the day ended and told him to save his time. But it was also partially to not be predictable and to stir things up. It just seemed to obvious to kill you, Manzcar.




As for today's actions, I planned on being doubtful and casting suspicion on both of you. I did keep Manz alive to get sam to vote him, actually, I just came up with that idea for suspicion. If anything, I planned on getting Manz to vote Sam with me. Things just worked out I guess.

All in all, this was a good game, it was tough for me having my scum partner killed so early on. But you guys really kept me on my toes, right up til the end. I was honestly really worried when Manzcar just fos'd me. As a final note, I find it ironic that the very first person to call out who scum was, itacv, was absolutely right, haha. Too bad we all disregarded him huh?

[atma]

**I meant to say I DIDN'T keep Manz alive just to get Sam to vote him, that wasn't my plan.

Sorry Manzcar, I know it must be frustrating.

[atma]

Thanks Manzcar and Sam, for being good sports. And thanks everyone else for a good game.

[atma]

@Evil, Thanks

@Meji Fan,

Well from what I recall, we wanted to kill someone who wasn't suspicious and someone who was also suspicious of lego. We narrowed it down to Vaya, you, and Manzcar. I actually told lego I wanted to kill Manzcar, but we ended up agreeing on you, I think because we thought a doc would be less likely to be on you than Manzcar. Damn, that game would have been way different if we had picked Vaya or Manzcar, huh? Sorry about the death though, nothing personal of course, just strategy.

[atma]

thanks sam, it was close, i thought i was done for right up until the end. you can see in my last post before the vote that i was running out of steam.