Mini 817: Chosen (Game Over!)

[Papa Zito]

/confirmation station

[Papa Zito]

Day 1 begins

Dun dun dun.

[Papa Zito]

Here lies th RVS.
July 8, 2009 - July 8, 2009
Ruthlessly gunned down by Nuwen.
Your life was short, but you will be remembered.
RIP

[Papa Zito]

Bah, I thought center tags would work.

[Papa Zito]

Vote: Papa Zito

It's your turn my friend!

My turn?

That's two votes on me. Hmm.

[Papa Zito]

Vote: Papa Zito

It's your turn my friend!

My turn?

That's two votes on me. Hmm.

Insinuation without accusation or questioning? If you think MM is scummy say so.

Vote: Papa Zito

Observation.

There's a school of thought that the third voter on a bandwagon is likely scum. What do you think?

[Papa Zito]

Sorry guys, my browser flipped out.

Fixed

[Papa Zito]

Holy crap. Time for a reboot I guess.

I like how he accuses you of something and in your reply, you do it again.

I'm at L-2 on the second page. Thoughts?

[Papa Zito]

Oh sweet Zorblag is joining. This game's awesomeness meter just went up a factor of 10.

[Papa Zito]

Oh and MiteyMouse is a she!

I always want to jump in and correct people, but it would be like stealing your catchphrase or something.

Anyway

vote: Nuwen

.

[Papa Zito]

Could everyone please give a list the other players in the game that you've played with or modded in the past using experience with nadroj15 rather than myself?

I'm in an ongoing game with nadroj15 and another with BloodCovenent at the moment. Mitey invited me here, we've played together in I think it's three other games now. I dunno the rest of you lot.

Papa what was the vote on Nuwen for?

Scummiest player so far.

[Papa Zito]

another with BloodCovenent at the moment. .

do you mean mafia 95?

That's the one.

[Papa Zito]

Scummiest player so far.

Any reasons?

You bet.

[Papa Zito]

Papa...are you going to give us your reasons....plaese.

I'm holding on to them for the moment. Wouldn't want to tip the unwary.

[Papa Zito]

Troll be happier talking like this but Troll knows that some no care for it much. As a rule Troll drops the character when Troll be replacing into games but Troll do be most happy to waive that if those in this game would like Troll to.

+1 to character posting.

I see a few very minor things that have happened that make her more likely to be scum

Sure, they're minor, but it's early game.

Game seems to be stalling, like everyone's waiting on me or something. So in the interest of getting things moving again:

Nuwen

And by not voting, do you realize that you're neutering one of the most effective tools the town has: vote history. Votes form a discernible pattern that can be used in conjunction to other scum hunting techniques. Players are also held accountable for their votes - no vote, no responsibility, no trail.

This argument is enormously overblown. Random votes are never taken seriously. It's only after we emerge from the RVS and when bandwagons form that votes are taken seriously.

Business as usual.

No opinion on the bandwagon. You know what else leaves no trail? Not posting opinions.

My concern is that you're now abiding by a strict policy, but haven't before.

Again, an overblown argument. People aren't allowed to evolve in their play?

Nuwen votes immediately afterwards for these poor reasons. What's even worse is she doesn't even mention that I also didn't random vote and it's also unusual compared to my past play. To me this says she zoned in on the first person to give her a convenient excuse.

One other thing.

TDC

vote: Archon

First post, TDC votes Archon using Nuwen's argument.

I don't see anything unusual in it.

"Opinion" on my bandwagon. Nuwen mirrors this later, as discussed.

Call.

Another TDC-Nuwen tie. TDC doesn't like that Nuwen has been voted. We should keep these in mind if one of them flips scum.

[Papa Zito]

Do you disagree? If you think it's unusual, why do you not comment on it?

I both brought attention to it and requested opinions.

Why are you singling me out on this? Several people enquired.

It's another part of the interaction between you two that I find interesting.

Is that the royal we?

lol

[Papa Zito]

BC's was fine. Mitey's was grey. Ash's was opportunistic.

That's about 100 times more analysis on what's gone on in this game than you've done, btw.

Initial scumlist

Nuwen
TDC
Ash

[Papa Zito]

Well, would be boring if everyone was as good as you at this, right?

I'm just going to refer you to Rule 1 and be done with this conversation.

[Papa Zito]

I was just kicked out of college and have spent the last few days inside of a bottle, please don't expect much from me right now. I'm sorry.

! Wow, so sorry to hear that.

[Papa Zito]

I really like where Troll's going.

I'm not sure which of the four I'd choose. I would have to research them all and figure out which ones appeared most pro-town on average. I'd pick those four.

If you really want me to pick people I can but you'll have to give me some time.

[Papa Zito]

Arrite, I'll put it together tomorrow.

[Papa Zito]

Only way to kill the Chosen is a lynch. So as scum I would have to exclude players who are typically hard to lynch/can defend themselves well.

Archon - KEEP - Mini 781.
AshMC1984 - KEEP - Serial lurker - Open 143, Mini 779 (scum) Mini 801 (town).
Bloodcovenent - KEEP - His only completed game is Newbie. Fun fact, I learned in that Bloodcovenant and Cateraction are friends in Realtime.
afatchic - EXCLUDE - Highly active; gets killed N1 a lot.
MiteyMouse - KEEP - I dunno, I always see her as scummy.
nadroj15 - KEEP - Only completed game is newbie.
Nuwen - EXCLUDE - Vet, plays strong as town, lots of analysis.
Papa Zito - HURR. Though objectively I'd exclude me if I were scum. And if I were a different player. Looking at me. ... ?
TDC - EXCLUDE - Similar to Nuwen.

So afatchic, Nuwen, TDC. For the fourth I'd throw in Mitey since apparently everyone else seems to view her as town. heh

[Papa Zito]

hey, i was in 801 as well, and i made it to end game

So you did. I missed that one. Sorry.

[Papa Zito]

Hurrah. Thank you hohum and replacements.

[Papa Zito]

Herodotus, do you have any experience with Papa Zito? Same question in reverse to Papa Zito.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

We've not played together yet.

Posting explosion is awesome. I'm actually having to catch up in a game. Sweet.

[Papa Zito]

No lynch = no fun. Basically the Chosen is just an extra scum-loss mechanic. Since lynching the Chosen doesn't guarantee the town a loss, I'd just ignore that he/she even exists. I still like the lists though, it's good to get in people's heads.

If we've still got the chosen in the last four players then the mafia have to lynch them and cannot lynch the other townie or we lose.

ORLY

[Papa Zito]

Unvote; Vote: Herodotus

The last game I played with Archon, he was replaced early and flipped scum when his replacement died. I don't think he likes playing scum.

This is terrible.

unvote
vote: Ash

[Papa Zito]

I could give you a list but it is pretty much random because I dont know...

The idea is good as long as scum excluded the players they thought were the best. They could have done the exact opposite, no?

Is it just me, or does this not scream "I don't want you to know our strategy"?

[Papa Zito]

This feels like reaching to me. IF Raivann is scum, he still wasn't here when they came up with the strategy. So how would he know what their strategy was?

It's standard practice to allow scum replacees to communicate with their partners, isn't it?

[Papa Zito]

Not quite. Normally, there is a quicktopic (basically a private thread,) and they can read whatever the original players wrote.

Example:
In this (abandoned) game http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11252
the QT was here http://www.quicktopic.com/43/H/YRngLQvvHXPmZ (it's in reverse chronological order)
When kieraen replaced Gateway, he was given a link to the QT, so he could read what Gateway, Rishi, and I had discussed in pre-game, but none of us could post there during the day.

Reading the quicktopic would inform the replacement of scum strategy, wouldn't it?

Anyway,

unvote; vote: Raivann

. Pressure produces results.

[Papa Zito]

Anyway,

unvote; vote: Raivann

. Pressure produces results.

Pressure? I want this to be a lynch wagon. Do you, or do you not?

Hmm. Your certainty gives me pause.

I'm definitely not a proponent of quick days.

[Papa Zito]

i think Herodotus is a pretty cool guy. eh hunts the scum and doesn't afraid of anything.

[Papa Zito]

The "pretty cool guy... doesn't afraid of anything" is a meme, Mitey. I'm very much in favor of Ash/Raivann(Nuwen) as our scum, and Herodotus seems to be thinking along the same lines.

[Papa Zito]

I like my vote on Heredotus.

Then make a case.

[Papa Zito]

What I would like, at this point, if it's not too much trouble, is a couple of sentences from everyone. First describing your experience with Mafia on this site and i total, as well as some general impressions on how Day 1 usually goes here.

My entire Mafia experience is this site. And I'm a relative newbie to the game. My games and their links are listed on my wiki page if you'd care to look.

From what I've seen, games here generally begin with a "random voting stage" (RVS) where people vote one another for bogus jokey reasons. At some point somebody seizes on some tiny minuscule thing, and then people begin to banter back and forth, etc.

[Papa Zito]

We've got a deadline now. It's a week away so there's plenty of time left. I think it should be clear to everyone that it's better for us to lynch someone before we reach it but just in case, here's the reason. If we can be pretty sure we won't hit the chosen today then any lynch we choose is better than a random lynch which we know won't hit scum but might be the chosen one. If things go well then we'll hit scum but even if we're wrong we're in better shape with the information from the votes than we would be otherwise.

Troll, you're starting to worry me a bit.

If you remove the Chosen mechanic from the equation, this game becomes a standard 7 vanilla vs. 2 vanilla scum setup. All the Chosen does is remove a couple of mafia win conditions, i.e. 2 scum vs. Chosen or 1 scum vs. Chosen.

For some reason you seem to be subtly pushing the idea that a Chosen lynch would be extremely detrimental to the town. This is simply not true; it just turns the game into a standard one. Saying things like a random lynch "won't hit scum but might hit the Chosen one" is a scare tactic. And it's also factually incorrect: a random lynch is twice as likely to hit scum as it is to hit the Chosen.

Getting back to my worry - you've spent an inordinate amount of time looking at mechanics and not scumhunting. I agree there's value in the Chosen lists that we generated, but I think there's less value there than if we were playing as if the Chosen mechanic didn't exist. Which, incidentally, is what I would propose we do so that this doesn't turn into more of a distraction than it already has.

Ignoring the Chosen issue entirely, can you please give a list of who you feel are most scummy at the moment? TIA.

[Papa Zito]

Papa...I was thinking on your post about having the Choosen on die and this just turning into a regular Mafia game. From reading the PMs at the start of the game thread, killing the Choosen is one of the /winCons of the Scum. Do you really think that it's not important to keep them alive?

I put "Keep the Chosen Alive" below "Lynch Scum" on my priority list.

Papa Zito's Priority List

1. Lynch Scum
2. Keep Chosen Alive
3. Keep Self Alive

See?

I'm worried about Zorblag putting so much emphasis on #2 and not enough on #1. A couple people have mentioned it and I'm starting to agree, this is starting to look like a distraction.

[Papa Zito]

Boy did it get quiet around here.

Raivann, I'm still waiting for a Herodotus case.

Call me old-fashioned Troll, but I think we have a better shot at this game going about it the regular way. The whole Chosen thing is like the bubblegum ball at the bottom of an ice-cream cone. You don't buy the cone for the gum, the gum is just an extra added surprise.

Also, someday in one of our games Mitey is actually going to think I'm town and the world will end.

[Papa Zito]

I'll re-read the case against Rai, but my top suspect is still MM.

You willing to switch at deadline?

I think we'll have to agree to disagree here, Zorblag. Maybe my lack of experience in a mountainous setup is coloring my perspective but I'm not seeing the Chosen mechanic as particularly important. My opinion is that we've already squeezed all the blood from that stone with the lists you requested and it's time to move on.

Mitey, I think you owe us some analysis of the game. Top 3 suspects?

[Papa Zito]

Agree with the Troll, Mitey is likely our last scum.

vote: MiteyMouse

[Papa Zito]

Papa Zito, I don't mind people agreeing with me but why do you think that MiteyMouse is our most probable scum right now?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

1. Her vote for me didn't make any sense when it was made and she never adequately defended it later on.
2. She attacked me with a weak cuddling claim for naming Raivann/Nuwen as scum.
3. She had absolutely zero interaction with our scum player slot all of Day 1. The reverse is also true.

[Papa Zito]

Yeah, I nailed Nuwen early on. How horrible of me.

I don't understand why you're so fixated on this passing messages thing. The fact is

both the people you accuse of passing messages were on the scum lynch

. That alone should completely blow your theory out of the water, and yet

you continue to insist that some form of messaging happened.

Beyond these vague message accusations I haven't seen you do any real scumhunting this game. What gives?

Ash/Special Ed are still scummy and a great #2 candidate, but you are more scummy due to what Zorblag talked about and the points I made. You have yet to make any concrete statements regarding this message business, and you have yet to refute anything put against you. If you want my vote to move you're going to have to mount a defense.

[Papa Zito]

I just re-read the game again, and Ash looks even worse than I remembered. Dry-Fit's Special Ed case is also good. Now I'm conflicted.

Also:

Vote: Archon

I like my vote on Heredotus.

Herodotus is totally the Chosen. No lynching the Hero plz.

Also also, my view of the game (bold is confirmed):

2

Archon

:

TDC

,

Nuwen

0

AshMC1984

:
1 BloodCovenent: afatchic
0 afatchic:
0 MiteyMouse:
1 Zorblag: BloodCovenent
0

Nuwen

: [/color]
2

Papa Zito

: MiteyMouse,

AshMC1984

0

TDC:

2

Archon

:

TDC

,

Nuwen

0

AshMC1984

:
1 BloodCovenent: afatchic
0 afatchic:
0 MiteyMouse:
1 Zorblag: BloodCovenent
1

Nuwen

:

Papa Zito

2

Papa Zito

: MiteyMouse,

AshMC1984

0

TDC

:

3

Herodotus

:

TDC

,

Raivann

,

AshMC1984

1

AshMC1984

:

Papa Zito

1 BloodCovenent: afatchic
0 afatchic:
1 MiteyMouse: BloodCovenent
0 Zorblag:
2

Raivann

: Zorblag,

Herodotus

1

Papa Zito

: MiteyMouse
0

TDC

:

1

Herodotus

:

Raivann

0

Special Ed

:
1 BloodCovenent: afatchic
0 afatchic:
1 MiteyMouse: BloodCovenent
0 Zorblag:
3

Raivann

: Zorblag

Herodotus

Papa Zito

0

Papa Zito

: MiteyMouse
0

TDC

:

5

Raivann

: Zorblag,

Herodotus

,

Papa Zito

,

TDC

,

Special Ed

1

Herodotus

:

Raivann

0

Special Ed

1 BloodCovenent: afatchic
0 afatchic:
1 MiteyMouse: BloodCovenent
0 Zorblag:
1

Papa Zito

: MiteyMouse
0

TDC

Actually while doing this vote count 3 struck me. Here's Ash's reasoning:

The last game I played with Archon, he was replaced early and flipped scum when his replacement died. I don't think he likes playing scum.

This was terrible reasoning then and it's terrible now. Given that I'm 99% positive that Hero is the Chosen, this looks me like Ash is trying to help his partner get the Chosen lynched.

unvote
vote: Special Ed

[Papa Zito]

Also, for posterity, this is my 1000th game post here on mafia scum.

[Papa Zito]

I believe Special Ed is at L-1.

Troll, you're still on Mitey. Has your opinion shifted at all or do you still feel Mitey is our best bet?

[Papa Zito]

I want to see what Herodotus and afatchic have to say before I do anything different with my vote at this point.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

Agree here, I just wanted to take your temperature.

Make some noise guys.

[Papa Zito]

I wouldn't call that "analysis," but okay. In fact, some analysis might be helpful.

[Papa Zito]

With 7 Alive it takes 4 to lynch

4 to lynch?

correct

[Papa Zito]

I just re-read the game again, and Ash looks even worse than I remembered. Dry-Fit's Special Ed case is also good. Now I'm conflicted.{{{{SNIP}}}

I cannot tell you what Ash was thinking or why he may have voted the way he did.

Nor do I expect you to. I do hope, however, that you don't expect me to ignore your predecessor.

[Papa Zito]

Also: Happy birthday, Mitey!

[Papa Zito]

Is there anything else to say before the hammer?

Good stuff.

I'd prefer we give afatchic/replacement a chance to weigh in before the day closes.

[Papa Zito]

A quick theory question: Would it be better for Ed to not self-hammer so that there are more people on the lynching wagon, or do non-voters/those with votes elsewhere provide as much information for vote analysis?

There are only very very very rare cases where townies should self-vote. This is not one of them.

The day isn't over, and my mind isn't set in stone. If someone were to present a good case on someone else I'd consider moving.

Special Ed, could you give us a breakdown of where you think people stand? Something like:

Prob Scum

X
Y

Scummy

X
Y

Neutral

X
Y

Townish

X
Y

Prob Town

X
Y

A sentence or two of why you think those things would be great too.

[Papa Zito]

Ed, your opinion on something, please.

Why do you think MiteyScum parked her vote on me all of Day 1?

[Papa Zito]

Herodotus??

Are you asking for a translation?

I'll give it a shot, though my Spanish sucks.

Official Count of the Vote:

Special Ed(3): Dry-fit, Papa Zito, MiteyMouse
MiteyMouse(2): Zorblag, Special Ed

Not Voting: don_johnson

With seven votes, it takes four to lynch.

This thread needs moar Don.

[Papa Zito]

...

That's extremely unhelpful. Anti-town, even.

Why would you replace into a game that you weren't going to bother catching up on?

[Papa Zito]

Papa Zito, what do you think of don-johnson so far? Any change on Herodotus based on the gambits that are being bandied about

Hero's gambit was fun. I wish I'd been online to participate.

Don seems like he won't help unless forced to. I'm not sure how to interpret this. I'll have to find past games of his so I can judge.

[Papa Zito]

So Ed, did we get it right?

[Papa Zito]

Yay!

Who was excluded?

[Papa Zito]

Ether, did you invent this setup?

I don't know a thing about game balance so I can't comment on that. The only thing I will say is that I think the sample size is too small to really judge at this point.

Troll, now that the game is over you know I'm town and can take what I said at face value. I don't want to rehash the argument again; I just want to apologize that you got frustrated since that lessened your enjoyment of the game.

For my part I enjoyed the game a great deal and I was sad to be NKed early yet again. It was still fun to watch though. Hero for MVP.