Mini 817: Chosen (Game Over!)

[Papa Zito]

Agree with the Troll, Mitey is likely our last scum.

vote: MiteyMouse

[Zorblag]

@Zorblag: Can you confirm that this is how you would order who you think is the chosen? Herod, Zorb, afat, Dry, Special, Papa, and Mitey?

No, my ranking was Herodotus, Zorblag, Dry-fit, afatchic, Special Ed, Papa Zito and then MiteyMouse. Why did you switch afatchic and Dry-fit in your list? Past the first two the order is pretty nebulous but it's what I'm currently thinking.

Papa Zito, I don't mind people agreeing with me but why do you think that MiteyMouse is our most probable scum right now?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Papa Zito]

Papa Zito, I don't mind people agreeing with me but why do you think that MiteyMouse is our most probable scum right now?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

1. Her vote for me didn't make any sense when it was made and she never adequately defended it later on.
2. She attacked me with a weak cuddling claim for naming Raivann/Nuwen as scum.
3. She had absolutely zero interaction with our scum player slot all of Day 1. The reverse is also true.

[Special Ed]

I agree with the stance on Mitey, but I do not want to put us within reach of a hammer without having heard from everyone, and without giving Mitey a chance to rebut.

[Zorblag]

Right now I want to hear what afatchic and MiteyMouse are thinking about the game and who their suspects are. I'd like to hear who Herodotus is suspicious of as well but I'm less concerned about his level of participation.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[MiteyMouse]

Working on it as we speak Zorblag!

[MiteyMouse]

I was looking at Raivann and Nuwen's posts in isolation and there wasn't a whole bunch to work with here. I was hoping to find some interactions and stuff but, again not a lot.

So, I went back and started looking at the people that voted for him as, it is likely that there was some bussing going on here.

Zorblag...well he started up the votes on Raivann here. Now, this is because he thought that Raiv was the least likely to be the Chosen and that's fair. I also think that you did pass a code and I think that I know what it is now...hehehe!

Herodotus...he looks probably the most Pro Town of all of you right now. Also, the fact that Raivann's vote was on him makes me want to stay far, far away from him!

Papa Zito...the infamous third voter that he himself speaks of early in the thread. He placed a really early vote for Nuwen and then moved it. Came back to be the third voter. He also has Nuwen on his exclude list. Argues strongly against not lynching someone that is potentially chosen. One of these things I'm willing to overlook however all together look bad.

TDC...dead

Special Ed...oh Ed...first off...*kick*..I feel better.
Ok...knowing Ed, I didn't think too much of him saying that he was Town, however, he really does say it a lot doesn't he? He also dropped the hammer on Raivann which is ok since he was a Scum but, it really cut down on our Day 1 talk time...by almost a full week. Now, Ed knows that talk time is good for Town. Why drop the hammer so soon Ed?
Day 2 is a bit funny for me...you have tried 2 different ways to go after me here Ed...that's after bring up my playstyle differences. You're grasping hard to get me killed...why is that?

Sorry that took so long.

[Special Ed]

Special Ed...oh Ed...first off...*kick*..I feel better.
Ok...knowing Ed, I didn't think too much of him saying that he was Town, however, he really does say it a lot doesn't he? He also dropped the hammer on Raivann which is ok since he was a Scum but, it really cut down on our Day 1 talk time...by almost a full week. Now, Ed knows that talk time is good for Town. Why drop the hammer so soon Ed?
Day 2 is a bit funny for me...you have tried 2 different ways to go after me here Ed...that's after bring up my playstyle differences. You're grasping hard to get me killed...why is that?

Yeah, I hate those Day 1's that are only two and a half weeks long. It really limits what we can say.

And, maybe I want you lynched because I think you're Scum?

[Zorblag]

So, I went back and started looking at the people that voted for him as, it is likely that there was some bussing going on here.

Zorblag...well he started up the votes on Raivann here. Now, this is because he thought that Raiv was the least likely to be the Chosen and that's fair. I also think that you did pass a code and I think that I know what it is now...hehehe!

I'll let Papa Zito and Special Ed talk about the other things in your post (or at least have first crack at them) but just looking at this bit of what you've said a couple questions spring to mind.

Why would you expect scum to bus on day one in a game with just two scum? We've got 4 players who were off the Raivann wagon still in the game and just 3 who were on it which is a really easy situation for scum to have arranged after the lynch using their night kill. Why assume that scum likely bussed rather than trying to blend in with those others who didn't go for the lynch?

If you think that I did pass a code and that you know what it is why aren't you voting me? There were only two scum in the game. Or do you think that I'm passing a coded message to the town as a town member? Or a coded message to the scum as a town member for some reason?

If you think that I was doing it as scum I'm calling for you to say what you think it was as I don't think you'll have an answer that makes sense and I think you're pushing an idea that had little merit at the start and none now.

If you think that I was doing it as town I'm still calling for you say what you think it is. I've not passed any code along to the town but even if I was I wouldn't mind the whole town seeing it explicitly.

In all, I call. Show me my code passing.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[MiteyMouse]

Ok Ed...fair enough, you think I'm Scum but, why? And you can roll your eyes at me all you want but, Days last longer here.

MiteyMouse's big push yesterday seemed to be her whole deal about me passing information to a scum partner based on a question I asked. Hopefully we can get past that idea now that Raivann has flipped scum. Unless someone thinks that I was trying to pass messages to Raivann with my question it's not an issue anymore. If someone does think that then they're going to shoot way up on my suspicion list unless they can give some probable way that would have worked. There's some chance that she was trying to work her way around to involving Herodotus in her suspicions there which I don't like and right now I don't have a great reason to think that she's done anything to help the town. I'd be fine lynching MiteyMouse today as I think she is unlikely to be the chosen and don't have a reason to think she's not scum.

Yeah...I got tunnel visioned on this idea and I still want to think that I saw something. I was thinking at first that I thought you and Papa were coding as Scum and then thought that you were sending codes as to who you thought that the Chosen was. I'm really thinking, based on your excluded data that Herodotus is probably the Chosen and you have straight out said that you think that so, if it was a code about that I'm not giving anything away. I wasn't voting for you are the end of the Day because I thought (and am still leaning towards) you being Town.

As for the Scum bussing, I have always been told as Scum that if it looks like one of the other Scummies is going down, get on the wagon...it will buy you Town cred.

[Papa Zito]

Yeah, I nailed Nuwen early on. How horrible of me.

I don't understand why you're so fixated on this passing messages thing. The fact is

both the people you accuse of passing messages were on the scum lynch

. That alone should completely blow your theory out of the water, and yet

you continue to insist that some form of messaging happened.

Beyond these vague message accusations I haven't seen you do any real scumhunting this game. What gives?

Ash/Special Ed are still scummy and a great #2 candidate, but you are more scummy due to what Zorblag talked about and the points I made. You have yet to make any concrete statements regarding this message business, and you have yet to refute anything put against you. If you want my vote to move you're going to have to mount a defense.

[MiteyMouse]

Yeah, I nailed Nuwen early on. How horrible of me.

I don't understand why you're so fixated on this passing messages thing. The fact is

both the people you accuse of passing messages were on the scum lynch

. That alone should completely blow your theory out of the water, and yet

you continue to insist that some form of messaging happened.

Beyond these vague message accusations I haven't seen you do any real scumhunting this game. What gives?

Ash/Special Ed are still scummy and a great #2 candidate, but you are more scummy due to what Zorblag talked about and the points I made. You have yet to make any concrete statements regarding this message business, and you have yet to refute anything put against you. If you want my vote to move you're going to have to mount a defense.

I honestly don't know Papa...I thought I saw something and I'm not sure that I did now. I got tunnell vision and played really badly Day 1. I'm trying and floundering here and am terribly frustrated. I have been reading and rereading this thread for hours and my head hurts...

[Dry-fit]

@Herodotus: Oops, can't believe I missed that >.<

@Ed: Okay if that's how you normally play it's null. Can you provide some links to games where this style is used? The reason "I'm town so you're wrong" is scummy to me is because it's basically the same as "you'll be sorry you lynched me when I flip town." It's an appeal to emotion in my view.

My suspicions on Zorblag have nothing to do with his dominting the game. That's not scummy at all. And no, I'm not willing to rule him out just because it would have been an early bus.

do you honestly think he would have been pushing early and hard for a lynch of his scumbuddy?

He never seemed to be all that enthusiastic about the Raivann lynch.

[Herodotus]

@MM -- I don't think the town would have gotten much out of an additional ~4 days when the lynch choice was almost certain to be Raivann regardless.

Right now I want to hear what afatchic and MiteyMouse are thinking about the game and who their suspects are. I'd like to hear who Herodotus is suspicious of as well but I'm less concerned about his level of participation.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

I'll go ahead and admit that my low participation is a result of the fact that I'm more interested in hearing what others have to say than in trying to convince anyone of anything at the moment. I could be asking questions to that end, but I haven't decided what to ask.

Just don't quicklynch, please. I'll start getting more involved in a few days.

[Special Ed]

@Herodotus: Oops, can't believe I missed that >.<

@Ed: Okay if that's how you normally play it's null. Can you provide some links to games where this style is used? The reason "I'm town so you're wrong" is scummy to me is because it's basically the same as "you'll be sorry you lynched me when I flip town." It's an appeal to emotion in my view.

Allow me to quote the phrases that I think are in question:
From my second post of the game

Knowing my alignment, I, of course, view with suspicion the case built against me.

That was on initially entering the game. Perhaps it's not how you play here, but I had one piece of information: my alignment. I knew, therefore, that certain statements were incorrect. That lead me, through my initial bout of OMGUS to suspect the cases against me.

From my fourth post:

As I think on it, a great deal of my suspicion was OMGUS. To be honest, I read the game before getting my role, I was expecting to find myself being a Scum. I fully expected Ash to have seen the pressure mounting and deciding to opt out instead of staying and fighting.

I've obviously seen the flaw in my initial approach.

Here's my entire 8th post, where I only mention being Town, as I was asked to respond to the issue.

Knowing my alignment, I, of course, view with suspicion the case built against me.

To be honest, I read the game before getting my role, I was expecting to find myself being a Scum. I fully expected Ash to have seen the pressure mounting and deciding to opt out instead of staying and fighting.

If you had replaced another player, and that player was town, the second quote seems to imply that you would have expected that Ash was scum. Why do you view the case on you/Ash with suspicion if you apparently would have agreed with it as a townie without access to Ash's role PM? Do you have more information that would suggest that the case on you would more likely be pursued by the scum rather than a townie with the same impression of Ash's play? Specifically, are you the Chosen?

You are correct. If I subbed in as someone else, I would probably be buying into the Ash is Scum theory. As I know Ash was not Scum, I'm not buying it. My initial reaction was to suspect the case against Ash/me. I've already admitted it was a bit OMGUSish. (Your quote started right after I said that in fact. It might look different as

As I think on it, a great deal of my suspicion was OMGUS. To be honest, I read the game before getting my role, I was expecting to find myself being a Scum. I fully expected Ash to have seen the pressure mounting and deciding to opt out instead of staying and fighting.

My PM stated that it was possible that I was the Chosen One, but I don't know if I am.

"If I subbed in as someone else, I would probably be buying into the Ash is Scum theory. As I know Ash was not Scum, I'm not buying it."

I was answering a hypothetical question about the alignment of my character as if I were another player in this game. How could I not refer to my own alignment?


in my 27th post of the game, I said:

So, yes, I'm either Town or tricksy Scum. Wink

This was in response to me making an error on who was NK'd and who was replaced. I hope it's seen as the joke it was intended to be

In my 28th post, I respond to Dry who made felt that I was referring to my Towniness a lot. Looking back, it really doesn't seem like a lot. I do it once, then I admit how my reasoning was flawed. Then I answer questions about why I said it.

So, my question is, why does it seem like such a big deal? And why does Mitey jump on it making it seem like I did it a lot, when if fact, it only really came up very early after I subbed and then in response to questions about it.

[MiteyMouse]

Ed...I was not the first that pointed that out nor have I been the last. I was just commenting on it. Take it how you will. You dropping the hammer early could look like a mercy killing so that Raivann didn't have a chance to imcriminate his partner. That is part of why it bothered me.

I still think that the Scum was in on the Raivann lynch. The sad part is that I suspect you all equally and am not willing to rule any of you out yet.

[Dry-fit]

@MiteyMouse: Who is your top suspect at this time? Do you have a case?

I'll go ahead and admit that my low participation is a result of the fact that I'm more interested in hearing what others have to say than in trying to convince anyone of anything at the moment.

This is not helpful.

@Zorblag: Why aren't you concerned about Herodotus' participation level? Even if he is not the lynch for today, it is still immportant for everyone to contribute their thoughts on who is scum. How is it acceptable to let a player not fully contribute?

[Zorblag]

@Zorblag: Why aren't you concerned about Herodotus' participation level? Even if he is not the lynch for today, it is still immportant for everyone to contribute their thoughts on who is scum. How is it acceptable to let a player not fully contribute?

I'm less concerned about Herodotus's level of participation than those of afatchic and MiteyMouse because I see evidence that he's following the game today and based on his previous play in this game and others I believe that he will be participating in a useful way. afatchic and MiteyMouse had posted once each today without giving me good insight into where their thoughts were when I made that post and I was not inspired by what they had to add yesterday.

No one should get a free pass as far as participation goes but I'm more concerned about my need to prod some about it than others.

Zorblag...well he started up the votes on Raivann here. Now, this is because he thought that Raiv was the least likely to be the Chosen and that's fair. I also think that you did pass a code and I think that I know what it is now...hehehe!

Yeah...I got tunnel visioned on this idea and I still want to think that I saw something. I was thinking at first that I thought you and Papa were coding as Scum and then thought that you were sending codes as to who you thought that the Chosen was. I'm really thinking, based on your excluded data that Herodotus is probably the Chosen and you have straight out said that you think that so, if it was a code about that I'm not giving anything away. I wasn't voting for you are the end of the Day because I thought (and am still leaning towards) you being Town.

Ed...I was not the first that pointed that out nor have I been the last. I was just commenting on it. Take it how you will. You dropping the hammer early could look like a mercy killing so that Raivann didn't have a chance to imcriminate his partner. That is part of why it bothered me.

I still think that the Scum was in on the Raivann lynch. The sad part is that I suspect you all equally and am not willing to rule any of you out yet.

So what I'm getting from this is that you think that I was using some sort of code to pass messages about who the chosen was despite the fact that I've been very vocal about the chosen and who I think it is. I'm not quite clear who I was supposed to be sending that to but it looks like it was Papa Zito? Further, at the end of the day you weren't voting for me because you thought I was town. You're still leaning that way now (though this is reduced? or am I reading the implication there wrong?) but at the same time you think that one of Papa Zito, Special Ed or I are scum as we were on the Raivann wagon and you suspect us all equally.

Should I believe all of that based on what you're saying so far or am I getting the wrong impression about anything?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Also, MiteyMouse, in your experience with people in this game which three would you say are the the most dangerous when they play scum? Which of those three if any do you think would consistently use standard scum tactics?

I don't have any problem with thinking that scum might have been on Raivann's wagon. My second suspect right now is Special Ed and he was the hammer on the wagon. On the other hand I do have a problem with the assumption that scum are going to play predictably enough that we can rule out anyone who wasn't on the wagon just because it's vaguely standard wisdom that scum should bus their partner if their partner is going down anyhow. I'm surprised that MiteyMouse would rely on a tell like that to screen out half of the game.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[MiteyMouse]

Dangerous as Scum...that would be You (Zorblag), Ed and Papa...I have not seen the others as Scum but, I have seen all of you.

Ok...I see your point Zorblag...it was rash of me to not look at the other players in the game. I will take a peek at the others. Right now Ed is pinging me really hard.

I have pointed some suspicion on him but, I will admit that part of it is gut...that being said, I always think he's Scum.

[Papa Zito]

I just re-read the game again, and Ash looks even worse than I remembered. Dry-Fit's Special Ed case is also good. Now I'm conflicted.

Also:

Vote: Archon

I like my vote on Heredotus.

Herodotus is totally the Chosen. No lynching the Hero plz.

Also also, my view of the game (bold is confirmed):

2

Archon

:

TDC

,

Nuwen

0

AshMC1984

:
1 BloodCovenent: afatchic
0 afatchic:
0 MiteyMouse:
1 Zorblag: BloodCovenent
0

Nuwen

: [/color]
2

Papa Zito

: MiteyMouse,

AshMC1984

0

TDC:

2

Archon

:

TDC

,

Nuwen

0

AshMC1984

:
1 BloodCovenent: afatchic
0 afatchic:
0 MiteyMouse:
1 Zorblag: BloodCovenent
1

Nuwen

:

Papa Zito

2

Papa Zito

: MiteyMouse,

AshMC1984

0

TDC

:

3

Herodotus

:

TDC

,

Raivann

,

AshMC1984

1

AshMC1984

:

Papa Zito

1 BloodCovenent: afatchic
0 afatchic:
1 MiteyMouse: BloodCovenent
0 Zorblag:
2

Raivann

: Zorblag,

Herodotus

1

Papa Zito

: MiteyMouse
0

TDC

:

1

Herodotus

:

Raivann

0

Special Ed

:
1 BloodCovenent: afatchic
0 afatchic:
1 MiteyMouse: BloodCovenent
0 Zorblag:
3

Raivann

: Zorblag

Herodotus

Papa Zito

0

Papa Zito

: MiteyMouse
0

TDC

:

5

Raivann

: Zorblag,

Herodotus

,

Papa Zito

,

TDC

,

Special Ed

1

Herodotus

:

Raivann

0

Special Ed

1 BloodCovenent: afatchic
0 afatchic:
1 MiteyMouse: BloodCovenent
0 Zorblag:
1

Papa Zito

: MiteyMouse
0

TDC

Actually while doing this vote count 3 struck me. Here's Ash's reasoning:

The last game I played with Archon, he was replaced early and flipped scum when his replacement died. I don't think he likes playing scum.

This was terrible reasoning then and it's terrible now. Given that I'm 99% positive that Hero is the Chosen, this looks me like Ash is trying to help his partner get the Chosen lynched.

unvote
vote: Special Ed

[Zorblag]

Mod: Can you please prod afatchic?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

Will Do

[MiteyMouse]

I like that vote analysis Papa. Thank you for posting that! Ed is my top suspect at this point and I feel badly for some of the reasons (mostly my gut) but, that is very interesting.

Something that might be a bit giggle worthy if Hero is the Chosen...in the opening post of this game, Hohum referred to the Chosen as a "hero"...hehehe!

[Zorblag]

MiteyMouse, what then are your current thoughts on Papa Zito and I? Have you had a chance to look at the other players since your last reply to me? What was it that put Special Ed over the top for you; that is, could you summarize why you now suspect him more than anyone else?

Also, for posterity, this is my 1000th game post here on mafia scum. I probably need to start trying to find other hobbies.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Papa Zito]

Also, for posterity, this is my 1000th game post here on mafia scum.