Mini 811: Foggy Londontown Mafia - Over!

[Hero764]

/confirm

[Hero764]

vote: kikuchiyo

Won't get fooled again.

[Hero764]

Third vote "random", nom?

Vote: Neferenom

Obvious joke vote.

Any special reason you removed your vote, Mokina?

Oh shit. Controversy.

[Hero764]

Again? When was the first time?

Days 1 and 2 when we lynched townies.

[Hero764]

I'm a little worried that only you and Qwints has really said anything about it though. Hero and Far Cry's comments on it was kind of wasted space and makes them seem a little suspicious. One of those, "hey I'm posting with no real content so I'm not lurking (but not helping either.) At least I know they're reading.

I've just got nothing to add. If you want my opinion on something just ask, of course. Neither of you come out of that looking particularly scummy.

And its only page 2, I hardly think you can accuse anyone of lurking.

[Hero764]

Quoted for truth.

[Hero764]

Though I agree with neither looking particularly scummy, I don't like the way this is all phrased. "I've got nothing to add" should never be said in any post, nor should "If you want my opinion, just ask". We're scumhunting and trying to figure out who to lynch. You're basically saying that you've got nothing to add, so you'll sit back until someone calls you, which is anti-town. You should be throwing out your opinion as much as you can, and always adding to discussion, this post implies that you want to do neither, which is scummy.

I've got nothing to add to the Nef/Mokina discussion is what I meant. If I see something I find scummy, obviously I'm not just going to sit back and wait for someone to ask me about it. I was just saying that if you wanted my opinion on what had gone on so far(just the Nef/Mokina debate as of that time) then to ask.

And would you rather me not post at all, rather than address what Nef said about me?

As far as FC's comment goes. I read it as him saying that because Lowell is lurking he is suspicious, since nothing else would really make sense considering he's done nothing except the 'Chill out poeple' post.

hero also draws suspicion for not contributing much to the discussion.

Why single me out?

Wiirdo, Lowell, and Tenchi have also not contributed much. Wiirdo hasn't posted at all since his confirm vote.

[Hero764]

kiku votes lowell
someone else unvotes lowell
kiku says "why is lowell suspicious???"
kiku gets angry when someone else explains

people I don't understand: kiku.

She thought FC was saying there was another reason you were suspicious besides the lurking, and only wanted his explanation.

[Hero764]

Precisely my point. FC clearly stated "lurking" and "suspicious". There was no implication of cause and effect which you seem to interpret. I want to know why FC differentiated between "lurking" and "suspicion". As it is, two people have now given him the easy answer thus negating the effect of my line of questioning.

Its just how you want to interpret his words. When he said, "and is suspicious" I read that as "and therefor is suspicious". Why would he say Lowell was suspicious for a different reason when there was no possible way for there to be a different reason? It doesn't make any sense for him to say what you think he meant, scum or not. You're making a case out of nothing here tbh.

[Hero764]

=/

Pointing out an error in her case is scummy now?

[Hero764]

There is no error in my case. FC was never allowed to clarify the statement. When they subsequently posted they candidly avoided the issue. How is that supposed to remove my suspicion of the original statement and the player who made it? As I have already pointed out, charitable interpretations of players statements are not the best grounds for dismissal of suspicion.

This is where the problem lies, what did you expect him to say? There's no way you would get any info out of him with that question. The only logical think he could possibly respond with was that he meant Lowell was suspicious based on his lurking or w/e because Lowell had done nothing else at that point. What good is him stating the obvious going to do us?

[Hero764]

Uhm no, not perfectly clear. I've got quite a few more posts in the thread than Lowell had, there's no clear cut reason for my suspicion, because I haven't only done one thing in this thread. See the difference?

[Hero764]

We gain nothing from learning your explanations of other's actions. Why are you so determined to protect FC from scrutiny?

I can assure you I'm not.

But Here, you precluded any possibility of any information from the response. Even if you thought kiku was scummy for making the attack, you shouldn't answer questions for far cry. He might not have given the "only logical" reply. We might have gained information. Because of you, we lost that opportunity.

I see what you mean, I just don't find it very likely that Far_Cry would say anything else. You'd have to really not be thinking about it. I'll drop it though.

[Hero764]

More posts, yes, though they consist of either irrelevant talk of past games, you insisting you don't have anything to add, or defending either yourself or FC. You're right, you've done several different things in this game, but none of them have been of much help to the town. See the difference?

See the difference compared to what? Sounds like you have a problem with me.

Have you even called anyone out on suspicion yet, or actually tried to scumhunt?

You act like I'm the only one who hasn't been entirely suspicious of someone yet. I'm going to ask you the same thing I asked FC, why are you so focused on me?

[Hero764]

Because many of the others just havent posted much. You've made as many posts as anyone in the first few pages, yet none of them really have any scumhunting content. Its like you're posting just to keep up appearances/defend yourself and FC, instead of helping town.

I have too many posts so I'm scum? And why the hell shouldn't I defend myself? I was only defending FC in the sense that I thought kiku's case was pretty stupid.

And I probably shouldn't say this or I might be 'defending' FC, but he never lied about his experience. He said he was a first time player on this site, not forever.

Um no, I shouldn't HAVE to ask for your opinions. Participating in the game is your obligation. Added suspicion since you have no opnions thus far. *I agree with Dank since I just read his post*

Explain how not having an opinion is scummy =/. Looks like you're just attacking the easiest target tbh.

You make no sense Hero, "If I find something scummyu I'm not just going to sit back and wait for someone to ask me about it." followed by "If you wanted my opinion on what had gone on so far (nef/mokina) then to ask."

If you DON'T find it scummy you could have posted that. Am I to assume you didn't find anything scummy about our conversation? I just don't believe that.

What's so hard to believe about that? And I DID say I didn't find it scummy, I was simply replying to your comment about how I haven't contributed much to the discussion.

Wat doesn't make sense to me is why Hero and Mokina were being "not hostile" towards me, trying to answer questions directed at me. I understand they hav cleared themseleves, but this sort behavior is somewhat erratic, to put it that way.

Way to restate what's already been said. What are you trying to do, make it look like you're being pro-town when you aren't? It seems pretty likely, since you haven't even been paying attention to my posts. I never answered a question directed at you.

FC: lying about your amount of experience is scummy, especially when you use your dishonesty to cast suspicion on someone else.

kiku: Making up a case is scummy. He never lied about his experience.

I like when my random vote stumbles upon a good lynch. What dank says is right, Far_Cry is trying to have his newbie cake, and eat it too.

So now we have dank, kiku, and Lowell all 'bandwagoning'(I know that isn't what it is, just can't think of a better word) on this false case. I bet you money one of them is scum.

Now, FC has been caught in a lie about his amount of experience. Voting someone who is lying is "anti-town"?

There you go again. How long are you going to use this as an argument?

vote: kikuchiyo

[Hero764]

Your strawman does not impress me.

It wasn't strawman. Others haven't had 'scumhunting' content either. The only difference between me and them is my posts, as you said. Is there some hidden reason I missed in your post? Your neglectance of my second question is noted.

When someone says "lay off, i'm new to the site", its implied that they are new to the game and looking for some slack, not that they're an experienced player.

Except it was the RVS, and people use BS reasons all the time.

You must always suspect someone, or at least try to scumhunt to look for suspicious behaviors. By neither finding anyone suspicious, nor showing any sort of inititiave to scum hunt, it looks very suspicious. Keep in mind, scum know everyone is innocent, so they may have a harder time trying to find reasons to be suspicious of others, or even start cases themselves. Thats where it could be scummy.

I don't see how that matters. Scum can find reasons in posts just as well as anyone else. And I think it would usually benefit scum to throw suspicion onto someone. About as much as it benefits town.

Again uncalled for defense. I refuse to believe that you can't understand how his statement could easily be interpreted as no experience playing mafia (i'm sure thats what the majority of players here thought).

Doesn't matter what you interpret it is, based on his "10 games" post we know he couldn't have been playing the newbie card, and the two posts certainly don't contradict eachother like kiku seems to think here.

Because we're voting for you, we must be scum? Though Lowell hasn't provided much at all, how exactly are kiku and I bandwagoning when we're providing original reasoning for our votes?

Your strawman does not impress me. Reread my post dawg.

[Hero764]

I've laid out my reasons for finding you suspicious over several posts, including 1. your ugly post showing no initiative to scum hunt, 2. your overdefensiveness, which should not be there this early in the game unless you've got something to hide, 3. your insistant defense of FC, which also doesn't have much of a reason, 4. your lack of any content until lately 5. your large number of posts without any content (keep up appearances). There may be more i'm not remembering.

1. I already responded to that and you said nothing about it. So I assumed you had let it go.
2. Making shit up about your own posts certainly isn't making you look better. Please quote where you said this, because I can't seem to find it. And how have I been "overdefensive" compared to just regular defensive?
3. Yeah, except I wasn't defending FC. If I was so focused on defending then why have I attacked him twice now?
4. Which applies to others.
5. "You have too many posts".

Your version of my reasons: "I post too much".

See the strawman yet?

Nope.

Its the random voting stage, not the lying voting stage. You're not expected to lie and make stuff up in RVS that will have an effect on how people will view you for the rest of the game. Thats what he did.

If he wanted people to view him that way for the rest of the game he wouldn't have gone out of his way to mention he had been in 10 games. And again, he never made up that it was his first game on this site, why are you so focused on this?

Scum don't want to get tangled up in cases of people they know are innocent, because it may draw suspicion later. Scum want to coast through the game quietly, jump on some bandwagons, go along with town's wishes, not do any major scumhunting themselves, because guess what, they don't have to. The town will usually do it for them. they basically try to go unnoticed, and guess what buddy, that's what you did for much of this game.

You assume all scum must act the same.

i'm not going to repeat the same line I've used about 4 times to reply to this, go read my last post.

I'm not sure which part of your last post you're referring to?

Your entire post says the case on FC is not true (I like how you're still arguing to disprove a case that's got nothing to do with you).

Now, I admit, I had made a mistake here. I assumed, since you spent such a long post defending something, that this bandwagon thing was about votes on you. But not, it appears they're about your good ol' buddy FC.

That said, kik put a vote on him for a good reason. Lowell, indeed didn't provide much, and it would be nice to hear more from him. My vote wasn't even on him, it's been on you ever since I replaced into this game.

Yet somehow, you've got a concise list of 3 people where one of us is scum.

Excellent scumhunting, my friend. It seems you've turned the corner.

It isn't true, because he didn't lie like you guys keep saying. (I like how you are still arguing for a case that is based on an obviously false pretense). He said it was the first game on this site. Where is the lie in that? Oh tell me please all knowing dank.

Kik's reason was a complete lie, how can that possibly be considered a good reason? What's with the unnecessary defense dank? And I know your votes been on me, did I ever say anything to the contrary?

[Hero764]

Hero764, there's no reason for you to be defending FarCry like you have been.

Haven't been defending him.

Answering the question for FarCry completely eliminated any information we could have gained from said question.

Hey, quit attacking the easiest target without even reading my posts. I never answered a question for him.

Also, you don't believe that "having no opinion" is scummy. I fail to see your reasoning here. Anyone who has no opinion can quickly develop one in order to jump on a bandwagon without looking wishy-washy by changing their mind. That was a very scum-like thing to say.

That still doesn't make it scummy to not have an opinion on something. And I did have an opinion on it to an extent(I assume we're talking about the Mokina/nef discussion?), I said neither of them looked particularly scummy.

[Hero764]

My god you're thick.

Love you too.

1. This has been discussed by me and others in multiple posts, and your responses have been pretty unimpressive. You haven't convinced anyone and the suspicion remains on you. Trust me, nothing's been let go.

2. I'm not going to help your lack of attention at what I post by pointing out specifically where I said what. I pointed your you being oddly defensive of both of yourself and FC several times, as have others. (Hint: Posts 78, 88, 90, 103. I bring up the word "defensive" in those posts for a reason.

3. You've been defending him like crazy.

4. Yes

5. Yes.

1. Well then, please explain what was wrong with my response.

2. Kay. 78 wasn't even a post of yours. 88 you never mentioned over defensive, just that I had been defending myself. I ask you again, what the hell is wrong with that? 90 is the same thing. 103 you never mention me defending myself. So the only real problem you mention is my supposed defense of FC, which would make this the same as reason 3. Why would you make it seem like there's more 'evidence' stacked against me than there actually is?

3. Pointing out the scumminess of a case and defending are not the same thing.

When you add 4 + 5 however you get suspicious. If you also throw in 1, 2 and 3, you get scummy.

Too bad 1, 2 and 3 hardly qualify as reasons.

You certainly haven't been defending FC.

Glad we're finally on the same page.

Not at all. It's just a common behavior.

Its also a common behavior to throw the blame onto others, so what? This argument isn't going to go anywhere though, so I'll just drop it. It doesn't mean much anyways.

When someone says "lay off, i'm new to the site", its implied that they are new to the game and looking for some slack, not that they're an experienced player.

It was the RVS. How can you interpret it as anything except a joking reason? This isn't what I'm voting kiku for anyways. Its the fact that she said he lied about his experience when he hadn't.

I refuse to believe that you can't understand how his statement could easily be interpreted as no experience playing mafia (i'm sure thats what the majority of players here thought).

Then why go out of his way to say he was experienced? Already answered this one too, and this one doesn't matter anyways?

Why say that? I can understand pointing out its your first game when you're new and want to be given some slack, since you're not too sure what's expected yet. But now, since your bragging that you've had 10 complete games, why were you trying to pull the noob card?

It. was. the. RVS.

right.

Care to explain where he lied in his post?

You

certainly

haven't been defending FC.

Cool.

I'm bandwagoning on a "false" case, even though i'm not even voting for FC.

I see.

Hey, remember to read the parenthesis next time, they're part of the post too.

[Hero764]

EBWOP:

My god you're thick.

Love you too.

1. This has been discussed by me and others in multiple posts, and your responses have been pretty unimpressive. You haven't convinced anyone and the suspicion remains on you. Trust me, nothing's been let go.

2. I'm not going to help your lack of attention at what I post by pointing out specifically where I said what. I pointed your you being oddly defensive of both of yourself and FC several times, as have others. (Hint: Posts 78, 88, 90, 103. I bring up the word "defensive" in those posts for a reason.

3. You've been defending him like crazy.

4. Yes

5. Yes.

1. Well then, please explain what was wrong with my response.

2. Kay. 78 wasn't even a post of yours. 88 you never mentioned over defensive, just that I had been defending myself. I ask you again, what the hell is wrong with that? 90 is the same thing. 103 you never mention me defending myself. So the only real problem you mention is my supposed defense of FC, which would make this the same as reason 3. Why would you make it seem like there's more 'evidence' stacked against me than there actually is?

3. Pointing out the scumminess of a case and defending are not the same thing.

When you add 4 + 5 however you get suspicious. If you also throw in 1, 2 and 3, you get scummy.

Too bad 1, 2 and 3 hardly qualify as reasons.

You certainly haven't been defending FC.

Glad we're finally on the same page.

Not at all. It's just a common behavior.

Its also a common behavior to throw the blame onto others, so what? This argument isn't going to go anywhere though, so I'll just drop it. It doesn't mean much anyways.

When someone says "lay off, i'm new to the site", its implied that they are new to the game and looking for some slack, not that they're an experienced player.

It was the RVS. How can you interpret it as anything except a joking reason? This isn't what I'm voting kiku for anyways. Its the fact that she said he lied about his experience when he hadn't.

I refuse to believe that you can't understand how his statement could easily be interpreted as no experience playing mafia (i'm sure thats what the majority of players here thought).

Then why go out of his way to say he was experienced? Already answered this one too, and this one doesn't matter anyways?

Why say that? I can understand pointing out its your first game when you're new and want to be given some slack, since you're not too sure what's expected yet. But now, since your bragging that you've had 10 complete games, why were you trying to pull the noob card?

It. was. the. RVS.

right.

Care to explain where he lied in his post?

You

certainly

haven't been defending FC.

Cool.

I'm bandwagoning on a "false" case, even though i'm not even voting for FC.

I see.

Hey, remember to read the parenthesis next time, they're part of the post too.

I thought it was part of your recent post .

[Hero764]

Also: If defending people is so bad, why are you defending kikuchiyo?

[Hero764]

Well dank, I would still like some answers to my questions if you don't mind:

What do you find wrong with my response in post 66?

What's wrong with defending myself?

[Hero764]

What the hell? No they haven't. Nef's the only one who replied to it, and all she really said was "I don't believe you."

I personally don't see anything wrong with my level of defensiveness. If you see something I did that was overdefensive then feel free to point it out. Otherwise - quit fabricating reasons.

[Hero764]

Your defensiveness has been you trying, thickheadedly, to defend your slipup in post 46. Everything you've posted has been defending either you or FC, if you havent noticed. 95% defense, 5% scumhunting. That's whats wrong with it.

That's not all I've been doing, its just been that way since the majority of my posts now are arguing with you. And again this is boiling down to me having "too many posts".

Anyway, i'm done arguing with you. Like I said, being as stubborn as you are, I don't think this argument will move anymore than it already has.

Great attitude you have there, you're so pro town. Has it ever occurred to you that you yourself have been incredibly stubborn?

Second, why does he have to defend himself? He's nowhere near being lynched. The town hasn't turned against him. I merely presented my argument. There's no logical need to get this riled up over an accusation on page 5. His posts have all been defense as if he's about to be lynched, instead of pursuing those he sees suspicious. He hasn't scumhunted, he's only defended. Thats the issue.

I can't believe you just posted that. What the fuck? Yep no need to defend myself. I'll just sit here and let you fabricate reasons against me as long as enough people don't agree with you, since that's logical. You realize that by replying to iamausername you are defending yourself? I guess hypocrisy doesn't phase you, eh?

And again, I haven't just been defending. What is it with you and making shit up?

Either I chose to vote u or him, and I decided to vote him, simply as "a random vote." I was simply a random vote.

What good does a random vote do at this stage in the game? And why didn't you acknowledge this at first?

kiku: I don't know if you're all caught up and what not, but when you are I'd like you to address your blatant lie.

What benefit is Hero getting out of defending other players in "semantics" arguments? If said players flip town, Hero can say, "I told you so."

That only makes me look scummier I never even said he was town anyways, so how could I say that? Your argument makes no sense.

Hero is well aware of FC's alignment.

Wow, jumping to conclusions much?

Hero764 has gone to great lengths to defend others.

Call it whatever you want, it wasn't scummy though.

[Hero764]

WILL YOU PLEASE STOP PROVIDING EXPLANATIONS FOR OTHER PEOPLE'S BEHAVIOR!?!

Pointing out what FC had said isn't explaining his behavior. Not sure where this came from all of a sudden.

[Hero764]

What blatant lie? Interpreted one way, FC very easily could have been lying. Interpreted another, not so. Please adress why you are giving FC the "benefit of the doubt" in two seperate statements.

Benefit of the doubt, seriously? He said it was his first time on the site, and then that he had 10 games. The only way to interpret that as a contradiction is to add/take away words to his statements. You lied.

[Hero764]

Hero - twice you have provided interpretations of FC's statements. That's what I'm referring to.

By that logic we aren't allowed to use anyone's statements except our own while scumhunting. Yeah, I can totally see that working.

[Hero764]

You are not addressing the timeline. He did not explicitly say that it was his first time on the site. Did you read my theorem post? You are interpreting his statements in one way and only one way. How do you know he didn't lie or attepmt to lie? Even if he is telling the truth, his first statement can easily be read as someone trying to play a newb card.

Whether or not he was playing the newb card is irrelevant a) because it was the RVS and b) because he later said he's been in ten games. What is relevant is that you are saying he lied about his experience when he clearly did not.

What does it mean? It could mean that I like both apples and oranges. It may also mean that I only like them when they are served together. It may also mean that I like apples, and the various shades of the color orange. Get it? You are interpreting statements in one way and one way only. Just because it makes sense to you does not mean the statement is clear and thusly you should nopt be taking up others arguments on their behalf.

What are you trying to do, make it look like you have more arguments against me by using a horrible analogy? His statements weren't anything like the apples and oranges one.

[Hero764]

Masons confirm each other.

And then they get NK'd. qwints is right, you shouldn't be rolefishing right now.

[Hero764]

kiku: What's wrong with you? You think I should be lynched because I supposedly interpreted a statement that you say was ambiguous and has nothing to do with anything? Hey, here's a good one for you: You're also interpretting his statement, and wrongly. You think he lied and his posts contradicted eachother, and even though they clearly didn't, you were still interpretting it for him. All I did was point out that he did not contradict himself, please explain how that's scummy. I don't care about his first statement, and it means jack shit what you interpret it as.

If you're not going to accept that then fine, go on using your horribly flawed logic and try to get me lynched.

[Hero764]

If that's so, why have you spent the last two pages arguing about its interpretation?

That's not what we were arguing about, and if it came up its because

you

brought it up.

Vote Count Four

Hero_764: 4 (dank, qwints, nadroj15, kikuchiyo)
kikuchiyo: 2 (Hero764, Tenchi)
iamausername: 1 (Neferenom)
dank: 1 (iamausername)
Tenchi: 1 (Far_Cry)
nadroj15: 1 (Mokina)
Far_Cry: 1 (Lowell)

Not Voting: 1 (Wiirdo)

With 12 alive it's 7 to lynch.

[Hero764]

If you don't care, and "it means jack shit what you interpret it as", why have you argued in every post that i'm wrong?

I haven't. And I said that in reference to kiku, who for some reasons thinks that my case on her has to do with my interpretation of his initial statement(which I never gave), which didn't matter at all at that point.

[Hero764]

I am not grandstanding on a "FC Lied!" platform.

FC: lying about your amount of experience is scummy,

=/.

I am at odds with you because you are choosing to interpret in a lenient fashion.

Yep, just keep ignoring everything I say. I never interpretted anything, his posts didn't contradict he each other. He wasn't 'lying'. Accept it already.

I'm sure he can defend himself, this isn't about me wanting to defend. Why do you keep going back to that same damn point about me "defending" him. Pointing out what he said is not defending him in the slightest.

[Hero764]

I'll get to the rest later, just have to deal with this new piece of work from kiku:

I never said nor implied that the statements "contradicted" each other. I am arguing that his first post, regardless of the information contained in the second post, may have been an attempt at a lie. You simply discount the possibility. Why? Why do you trust Far_Cry?

I want you to read very closely, and if you post this same thing one more time I'm not even going to bother replying.

It. doesn't. matter. if. he. attempted. to. lie. or. not. I never said anything about whether or not he was attempting, so how the hell could I have discounted(although he must be pretty stupid if he later admitted to lying when no one challenged his claim, but that's beside the point).

The point of the matter is that you posted saying he lied about his experience. Since you keep bringing up how it "may" have been, why were you before so sure that he lied about it? And more importantly, why did you say his posts contradicted each other when they clearly didn't. No interpretation needed there, just read the damn quotes.

You are bringing irrelevant things into this to try and strengthen your case. I honestly can't see any reason for a townie to do that.

[Hero764]

So its okay if someone lies?

Everyone loves a good strawman!

I wasn't sure. My initial interpretation of his post read as him lieing. Him lieing is a possibility. Always has been. You still seem to be avoiding the question of

WHY DO YOU TRUST WHAT HE IS SAYING

WHEN ONE OF HIS FIRST POSTS COULD EASILY BE CONSTRUED AS AN ATTEMPT TO MISREPRESENT HIMSELF TO THE COMMUNITY?

...

I never, ever, ever, said anything about trusting FC. All I did was point out that he did not indeed lie. Like I said, whether or not he was attempting to misrep himself in the first post is 100% irrelevant to any of this. This isn't about FC, this is about you.

I NEVER DID.

lol ok.

So then what were you doing here:

^^ Good point. In fact, Mokina said Hero was doing good scumhunting this game. Has anyone seen it?

FC: lying about your amount of experience is scummy, especially when you use your dishonesty to cast suspicion on someone else.

Vote: Far_Cry

Please explain what you hope to accomplish for town by deceit in the rvs.

Post 97.

Have you no comments on anything else? What do you think of Mokina's recent flip flop?

Mokina's flip flop? I can't see where she ever agreed with your case in the first place so....either quote it for me or quit making up stuff.

unvote, vote hero. He's getting too angry and too meta for my taste.

...what? If you think

I'm

being too angry, what the hell do you think of kiku's last post? And I'm not sure what you mean about too meta, and how it's scummy, but I'm at L-2 now, so using poor reasoning in your vote is very anti-town.

FoS: Lowell

Nef:

First, considering Mokina and I had two completely different view points and were basically calling each other scummy to not have an opinion on that or anything else in the game is scummy because it means you have nothing to put forth. I can't currently explain it my brain is a bit fried. If you don't understand maybe someone else can explain if they agree.

Yeah that didn't make much sense at all. Just because you two had opposing viewpoints doesn't make one of you scum, townie vs. townie debates happen all the time.

Second, um no, I am/will attack everyone. Its D1 got to get info. You just happen to jump up as the easy target during this. I don't like how you've repeated this later on in your posts either. Its a scare tactic that will most liekly backfire.

It isn't a scare tactic, I just didn't know what else to call it.

And I'll start putting in the names, yeah.

I think they were similar considering 50% of everyone here has a different opinion than you.

What..? Because people don't share my opinion somehow the nature of the statement is changed?

[Hero764]

Oh, for the Lowell thing you meant? I thought we were talking about the experience thing, sorry for the confusion.

Anyways, it looks to me like Mokina is saying that your case about FC lying was wrong, and she never agreed with that, as far as I can see. Did she ever say anything about the wrongness(for lack of a better word) of your case about FC's comment towards Lowell? If not, I don't see a flip flop.

Lying and contradiction go hand in hand, you think he lied in his first post, because his second post contradicts that. They don't. I don't care what you are pushing now, before you were clearly trying to push that FC was lying, which was 100% false. Why is it so hard for you to accept this?

Hero, why do you simply choose to believe and trust FC? Why would you not let him defend himself?

OH MY GOD.

This has nothing to do with FC. I never said anything about believing and trusting him, quit putting words into my mouth.

And what do you have to say about Lowell's comment? That has to be one of the scummiest posts all game, and you just ignore it?

[Hero764]

Whether FC was lieing or not is not 100% anything. That's my point here. He made an ambiguous statement that could easily be interpreted as deceitful.

But that isn't what you said initially. You looked at both his posts and came to the conclusion that he was lying, and then used this against him, which is incredibly scummy because it was false reasoning.

If you don't believe him then why are you insisting that he is 100% clear

Hmm? It isn't a matter of how clear he was, it's that he did not lie when you said he did. That's all I'm saying. He could very well have been attempting a lie in his first post, but none of that matters.

And I know exactly what I've been arguing, you just keep ignoring it/getting the wrong idea of it. So my vote is staying.

And yes I would like to hear more from especially Lowell. I still don't see the flip flop of Mokina you are referring to.

[Hero764]

172 is really stupid. Policing the gameplay doesn't mean anything.

note to self: qwints jumps in to protect hero.

Hey, you going to address your reasons for voting me or what?

[Hero764]

1. So kiku wasn't angry?
2. What do you mean I was meta.
3. When did I make a big deal about Mason claims?

[Hero764]

U make urself look rly retarded.

Are you even trying to play this game?

[Hero764]

C) Earlier you said you realized that my argument with FC was not "semantics", but now you backtrack on that in order to bolster your case on me.

Wrong. She agreed with your earlier case on FC about him calling Lowell suspicious, not about him lying about his lack of experience. You're making up stuff just to strengthen your case

yet again

, and I don't like it.

[Hero764]

I don't want to get accused of giving Mokina the benefit of the doubt, but you have to think of other ways to interpret Mokina's statement. She could've meant, for instance, that while kiku's initial accusation could've been townish, the fact that she kept pushing after being shown she was wrong was scummy. Scum can find cases against people too and base them on something worthwhile. Townies can make themselves look scummy when they aren't.

Are Mokina's actions questionable? Yes, very. But I find kiku's continuous scumminess much more of a grounds for a lynch than this.

[Hero764]

I am not making anything up here. I am referring to her "earlier" agreement with me. The case about FC "lieing" is debatable. i.e. You yourself have admitted that FC may have attrempted to lie. You just feel that it is irrelevant. I unvoted you and put the case against you on the backburner, so by your logic my earlier actions should be irrelevant, no?

Ok, but I don't see where she ever disagreed about the FC/Lowell thing. And please explain how my logic shows that.

Hero: Why are you ignoring the case on Mokina?

Ignoring it? How do you mean? I just find the case on you a better one.

[Hero764]

You are both also supporting a wagon with an RVS vote still attached to it.

Holy shit, every post you include more scummy reasoning. Where the hell did this come from all of a sudden?

And please explain the pro-town reasons for what you did.

[Hero764]

You said none of your arguments were bad enough to only mean you were scum, and I asked you what was/could be pro-town about your arguments.

[Hero764]

Alright, fuck it. This isn't going to end well at all.

Claim: Mason

Me and Mokina. She can confirm.

[Hero764]

I still think you're scummy, kiku. I'm not actually entirely sure why Mokina thinks you're town, perhaps she should elaborate?

As for information gained, the lurkers look pretty bad, especially Lowell. Far_Cry looks like supernewb, Wiirdo hasn't done really anything(btw Soundgarden is the shit dude, not as good as STP though ), and I'm inclined to believe Tenchi's story because it would be pretty low to lie about that just to get out of being prodded. I really would like to hear more from all of them though.

I might do a reread as well.

[Hero764]

Hero, why were you unwilling to interpret FC's statement differently when you're admitting that a statement can be interpreted differently?

He first statement? I believe I did admit that I was wrong about that. If not I'll do it now. If you mean the whole thing about him stating his experience and such, I did not interpret anything there,

I only pointed out that his posts did not contradict eachother

. That's not an interpretation, that's looking at the damn facts. I've stated this over and over again.

[Hero764]

Here, I'll fix it for you:

1st statement can either mean: Hey, this is my first game on this site,

but I've played elsewhere.

OR

Hey, this is my first game on this site,

i'm new to mafia.

Why are you tacking extra stuff onto his initial statement? That's why you think he contradicted himself, because you apparently have a problem with reading stuff as they are. His first post, taken for what it really means DOES NOT contradict his second, no matter which way you look at it.

[Hero764]

Lol, you suck at that. I didn't tack anything on to her statement.

I was bullshitting though to try and save her from being lynched w/o having to claim. Are we in agreeance that I wasn't interpretting anything though?

[Hero764]

What point are you trying to make anyways?

[Hero764]

The thing with you and kiku and your "interpretation" was that it wasn't an interpretation at all, simply a lie. There is only one way to interpret FC's statements, and they didn't contradict eachother.

Mokina's statement was not a question of if she was lying or not. If FC had not posted his second statement then his first one would very fucking well be up for interpretation.

I never said anything to contrary.

You're attempting to compare two things that are not related at all.

And the thing about a bullshit defense, btw, is that typically they wouldn't be defended by arguments that the person who made the defense would support. If I thought I could defend my action I wouldn't have claimed in the first place.

Vote Count Six

kikuchiyo: 2 (Hero764, Tenchi)
Lowell: 2 (Wiirdo, qwints)
Mokina: 1 (iamausername)

Not Voting: 7 (dank, Far_Cry, kikuchiyo, Lowell, Mokina, nadroj15, Neferenom)

With 12 alive it's 7 to lynch.


Prodding Lowell, Neferenom, and Tenchi

[Hero764]

I worded that horribly wrong. If FC hadn't posted his second statement the question of his experience would be open for interpretation.

[Hero764]

I'd say we were backed into a corner. There was no way Mokina wasn't going to get more votes on her, and the longer we waited to less believable the claim would be. dank: You wouldn't have voted for Mokina if it hadn't been for the claim?

To tell the truth, perhaps Lowell is

not so suspicious

. I'm rly not sure wat kind of game hes playin. Hes makin himself too scummy, if u know wat I mean. Obviously, he wouldn't be doin such stupid stuff if he was mafia.

I still hav to say he's suspicious,

but I will leave him for later.

Make up your damn mind, looks like you're trying to make sure you're on both sides so you can easily switch whenever its convenient. Scummy.

FoS: FC

Nadroj needs to post more content as well.

[Hero764]

Who do you think is scum Far_Cry

[Hero764]

What do you find scummy about them?

[Hero764]

unvote

vote: nadroj

for scummy bandwagoning.

Why did you wait until other people put votes on FC before you did? It isn't like he's posted since you last did.

[Hero764]

Would you guys stop making analysis's of everyone? Scum is going to look at these lists and lynch the one everyone thinks is pro-town so we gain as little info as possible.

[Hero764]

Define "not that suspicious".

[Hero764]

I don't feel the need to publicize suspicions I may or may not have regarding nadroj at this time. This is simply an attempt by FC to divert attention.

"not that suspicious" means I don't find him suspicious, but he is by no means clear of any suspicion. I want to lynch FC. If you are who you say you are then you really shouldn't be against it. Are you afraid what will happen if FC flips scum?

I never said I was against, I am simply more "for" lynching nadroj. And I'm pretty sure you aren't going to threaten me with the whole "what FC flips scum?" Nice try though.

[Hero764]

Woah, crazy FC defense of kiku?

Mafia wouldn't so openly push for a lynch like she does.

Why not?

I do suspect perhaps she is mason, but I'm really torn 50/50 about it.

So you think there's more than one mason faction in this game? That sounds like and irrational assumption to me. Don't you think she would've claimed by now considering she loves day 1 mason claims?

[Hero764]

To answer your second question, I think it would be stupid on the mafia's part to do somethin like that.

Way to avoid the entire question. WHY would it be stupid?

Since when would there be 2 mason factions?? I'm not claiming that.

Well she isn't in with me and Mokina so I don't see what you mean.

Although it's early (and perhaps stupid), isin't pehaps logically to assume there's an actor in this game? Or perhaps a survivor or Joker? Pehaps even a cult master?

Where is this coming from?

[Hero764]

NO smart mafia person will openly push a lynch so much.

Why the hell are you so reluctant to give a concrete explanation? This doesn't answer my question at all.

I'm not crazy protecting Mokina. I am sick and tired of this shit that you can say someone is not suspicious. LOTS of other people have done it. You don't latch on them?

The fact that you think she would be a mason(when there is already one faction more or less confirmed) over scum is ridiculous. You're assuming the more irrational of the two explanation, that's why I called it "crazy" defending(albeit crazy probably wasn't the right word).

I understand you're claiming that your mason, but, call me stupid, I'm not taking it.

Care to explain why not?

[Hero764]

Answer this, if you were kiku and you were mafia, would you push so openly for a lynch on me?

I don't see why not. Everyone has expressed suspicions of you, so it isn't like she's taking a huge risk or anything. Scum want to lynch just as much as townies.

And I'm not taking claims for ANY role on day 1. I don't care if you claim mason, cop, doctor, or McFuckAss. I just can't take it.

Why not?

[Hero764]

I don't know. If I were mafia, I wouldn't push so much for a lynch.

WHY NOT?

To answer your second question, I don't want to take that kind of stuff. I'm cautious when comes to people claiming that their something. Just my style of play.

Why are you still so cautious, even though me and Mokina "confirmed" eachother. And if you think we're lying, why the hell aren't you voting one of us?

[Hero764]

Ah fuck. You have got to be serious. ITS MY PLAYING STYLE HERO! DEAL WITH IT!

What's so hard about explaining your playstyle?

I find others more suspicious than you and Mokina. And, I don't know. Maybe one of you is a Joker? How am I supposed to know?

You find others more suspicious? If you think we lied then obviously we would be scumbuddies. If you think we're Jokers then don't you think you would've claimed Jokers?

Start making sense plz.

[Hero764]

but I get a scum vibe from him.

Explain.

[Hero764]

Mod: Prod Mokina, Wiirdo, dank, and kikuchiyo

Let's get some activity going guys.

Giving them until tomorrow to check back in after the long weekend. I'll be sending prods tomorrow evening.

- Mod

[Hero764]

EBWOP: *facepalm* completely missed dank and kiku's posts.

kiku: Go read FC's meta(hint: he's like CJMiller except he uses worse grammar) and then tell me what you think of him. He could easily just be acting like a moron like he does in every other single game.

You don't nadroj's post content scummy? I find that hard to believe.

[Hero764]

Harsh, dude. He's not that bad.

I guess. He hasn't been as bad in this game as in others though.

I don't think his (arguably?) bad playstyle is any indication of scumminess though.

[Hero764]

Wow. I must rly suck. Thats just about wat everyone says. Looks like my playingstyle must take a major overhaul.

I'd start finding real reasons to suspect/not suspect people really soon if you want to overhaul your playstyle.

[Hero764]

serial:

1) Tell me what is wrong with my "defending" of Far_Cry. I can't just be trying to get a scummier person lynched? If I don't agree that he is as scummy as you say he is(which I explain, go read some games he's been in for yourself, he has this same horrible playingstyle in every single one of them. It simply isn't an indication of scumminess), I'm automatically his partner?

2) I didn't vote Far_Cry because he just has a horrible playstyle that you can't get a read out of. I didn't vote Wiirdo because he hasn't been jumping on every bandwagon he can, amongst other things. dank already pointed out the bandwagoning, but let's look at more of his select few posts:

Awww, we're leaving the RVS already? Anyways, it is true that the third vote on a wagon is scummy, even if it is a random vote. The thing is, there's nothing scummy about Neferenom's reaction. With a bandwagon accusation this early in the game, I think more information could be gained from her reaction than the actual bandwagon vote.

Now obviously that's no where near conclusive, but I'm not finding Neferenom suspicious at the moment.

"While what she did was scummy, she doesn't seem so scummy to me." Taking both sides. This post has an incredible newbscum vibe to it.

This line bothers me somewhat.

Neglects to explain it.

If you'll also notice, through the entire Mokina/kikuchiyo bloodbath, nadroj also seems to be attempting to take both sides.

Dank - What are your thoughts on Mokina at the moment? You comment about my "good point" post but not about the point in question. Nothing really scummy about that, I'm interested in hearing your stance on her.

Also, why no "good point" posts? I understand that it contributed nothing, but I was stating my viewpoint on the subject.

Unvote, Vote: Mokina

Forgot to do that in my earlier post.

Kiku -- The reason that line bothered me is because

it seems like a scum thing to say.

If you are scum, and you get Mokina lynched, and she flips town, you could say "She was town, but her behavior was screwing us over." A Get Out Of Jail Free card if people call you out on leading the Mokina bandwagon.

There's probably more if you read his posts in iso. I'm not saying he's obvscum, but he's definitely scummier than everyone here. Far_Cry simply acts this in every single game, you can't just say that makes him scummy.

3) I don't see what the lateness of the breadcrumb has to do with anything. Scum can breadcrumb just as early as anyone. Hell they could probably get a mason, doctor, vig, and cop claim in four consecutive posts and no one would notice.

4) I didn't 'drop' the case against kiku, I've already stated it over and over again if you want to go look at it. It wasn't going to go anywhere, so I stopped pushing it(long before the claim). Mokina's case was, I assume, simply a chainsaw defense of me. No logical reason to keep pushing after a claim.

5) "I" derailed the bandwagon? Yeah, because I somehow had control of what would happen after I posted that.

kikuchiyo:

1) Have you read Far_Cry's meta yet? If so, what do you have to say about it.

2) When did my activity drop? Mokina's has yes, but I've still been posting at least once a day.

dank:

1) Why the switch of vote? You think a policy lynch is better than lynching someone who is scummy?

Vote Count Ten

Far_Cry: 5 (kikuchiyo, nadroj15, qwints, SerialClergyman, dank)
nadroj15: 3 (Hero 764, Far_Cry, Lowell)
qwints: 1 (iamausername)

Not Voting: 3 (Mokina, Nikanor, Tenchi)

With 12 alive it's 7 to lynch.

Current deadline: Saturday, July 18th 8:10 AM EST

[Hero764]

There were three quick votes on FC before this. After your post, dank switched from FC to nadroj (A switch that should be remembered.)

I don't control dank's actions. How is this even close to a real argument?

The comment about nadroj is the ONLY thing you had to say about him before you voted for him. That demands some explanation besides implying that you can't control what other people do.

What do you want me to explain? It is true I didn't pay much attention to nadroj's posts at first.

Also, since I've had some bad experiences, could both masons confirm that their pm explicitly states that they know the other is town?

Yes. My PM states Mokina is town.

[Hero764]

I'll wait to see what FC says in response to dank.

[Hero764]

Hero, let's see if I can make my point clearer.

1. You had not expressed any suspicion of nadroj.
2. You had expressed suspicion of FC.
3. FC became the leading wagon after three quick votes.
4. You vote one of those voters.
5. This vote was immediately after nadroj voted.
6. Nadroj became the leading wagon based on other's following you.

(You claim that 6 was not something that you could control, but wasn't that what you wanted to happen?)

This sequence of events is scummy because you, once again, took pressure off of FC. Furthermore, you voted for someone you hadn't expressed suspicion of as soon as (2 minutes after, in fact) he voted for FC. This occurred even though nadroj's vote was based on very similar reasoning that caused you to express suspicion.

Frankly, it looks like you were trying to distance yourself from FC after you had been called out for defending him earlier, but you got nervous when a bandwagon started forming. This demands a better response than "I can't control what others do."

Why did you vote nadroj right after he voted FC?

This is ridiculous.

The reason I had not expressed suspicion of nadroj earlier is because I didn't really pay much attention to his posts. Looking back, he was definitely the scummiest out of anyone here. Why do I have to express earlier suspicion of everyone I vote?

Yes I had expressed suspicion of FC. This was before I read some other games of his and found that he acted the same in all of them.

And then I voted Nadroj, not because he voted FC, but because of the

way

in which he did it. He waited until other people had voted for FC to make sure he was safe scrutiny for doing so, do you deny that it was one of the scummiest, if not THE scummiest post all game? His explanation afterwards is pretty lackluster as well. Then dank showed where he had done this sort of thing before, which prompted me to read him in iso, and I only saw more reasons to vote for him.

Let's try this question: Why DON'T you find nadroj scummy?

[Hero764]

Hero - you have to look at your actions in context. You've been defending him all game, been called out for defending him. I agree with you that it's ok to defend osmeone when there's a dodgy case on him, but the case on FC is GOOD, he IS ACTING SCUMMY. Then even when you're pushed up against a wall for defending him so strongly, are accused of being masons with him (and turn out claim masons with someone else), you STILL end up defending him.

Nonononononononono

I have not been defending him all game. Don't even try to start this. And I wasn't pushed up against the wall at all, it was Mokina's actions that made me claim. Were you paying attention during the reread?

So take a look at someone who is defending someone scummy, no matter how scummy they get, and when a bandwagon starts on them, despite 1 day earlier FoS'ing him, you choose THAT MOMENT to vote someone you hadn't mentioned as scummy all game.

Yes, THAT MOMENT, because in THAT MOMENT, nadroj acted really scummy. Every vote took place at some moment, and you can't say they are scummy because they took place at that moment. That's ridiculous.

It's just too convinient. And no, you couldn't tell exactly what other people were going to od, but when a bandwagon is forming and you vote one of the people forming it for 'scummy bandwagoning', what do you suggest is the likely out come of the vote?

I'm glad there's a bandwagon on nadroj because I find him scummy. Is there a problem with that?

Your meta defence of FC is also really inadequate. I understand that he mightn't be the most conventional player, and I understand that he might always post in this manner - but HE HIMSELF gave us a 'hypothetical' of how he would act if he was scum, and that fits his posting profile exactly. If you can't vote him based on a meta of his playstyle after that, I can only assume you have an ulterior motive.

I'm sorry but I attribute his whole scum playstyle thing to being an idiot and not ever seeming to think before he posts. Its obvious he was bullshitting during that whole fiasco(at least to me) and I don't think that makes him scum, just a bad player. You act like I'm saying he's 100% town when that's pretty far from the truth. I stated my reasons for voting nadroj, and my reasons for not voting FC. I'm not allowed to try to convince people to see it how I see it without seeming scummy? That's ridiculous and you know it.

And this dichotomy is total manipulation. How about a lynch on someone who is scummy and will give us more info if he flips is better than lynching someone who is a noob lurker?

Read dank's post, he said FC had been anti town and wasn't helping at all, and that he voted for him because of that, not because dank thought he was scummy. That's where the question came from.

Read:

Anyway, despite my uncertainties, his play is flat out anti-town and distracting, and is not at all helping us, so there really is no reason to keep him alive.

Sounds like a policy lynch suggestion to me.

Essentially - I don't believe you. Your current story is you've been defending FC all game because the attacks on him have been bad. You hadn't looked at nadroj much all game or declared any suspicion on him but you chose THAT MOMENT to vote him, just when votes were building against your bestest defending buddy FC. You claim you couldn't control what would happen after your vote,

and that voting someone for 'scummy bandwagoning' in the middle of a forming wagon was not intended to pressure people away form the wagon.

bold: Obviously I wanted people to see it my way, but you can't blame me for their actions. I wanted people to vote nadroj instead of FC yes, and coming away from his wagon was a side effect of that. That does not mean what you're making it out to be. And besides, I'm pretty sure dank's post was largely responsible for the wagon, much moreso than my one liner post. Why aren't you attacking him? Tunnel-visioned much?

The lateness of the breadcrumb matters. If you're under pressure and you're looking ot claim mason and you have a post on the first page that crumbed that you were masons with Monika - well that's all well and good. The whole point is at that point of the game, you couldn't have known the situation, couldn't have known what was going to happen. when you refer ot that breadcrumb, I know it wasn't influenced by what's happened in the game, I know that you couldn't be claiming it because it fits the situation.

I didn't refer to the breadcrumb, Mokina did.

Now - say you're getting to be in trouble on page 7, there's a lot of talk, a lot of suggestions about what you might be. So you pick the most convienient claim and breadcrumb it right there! You have had a lot of time in the game ot pick the most convineient claim at that point. If the talk was asking if you were a cop, you could have crumbed cop at that point. You see what I mean? The later the crumb, the more time you have to read the game state and pick a convienient or convincing crumb.

Mmmk.

Its WIFOM though, since scum wouldn't want you think that and would crumb earlier.

[Hero764]

So you've changed your stance from 'I can't help what people do' to 'I'm happy I convinced them'?

No. They are both part of the same stance.

Part of what makes me frustrated and think you're not town, Hero, is that you make no acknowledgement of some of the really basic points in my case at all.
You KNOW you've been called out for defending FC all game, whether you agree with that assesment or not.
You KNOW that perhaps if you've been called out for defending FC and vote a third party you've never expressed suspicion of with a deliberate intention to move votes off FC's wagon, it's suspicious.

Yes I've been called out, and I've argued against it pretty much every time(and its actually people saying, I charitably interpretted his posts, which of course is bullshit). I understand what you're saying, I just don't agree with it at all. I don't see how I'm not acknowledging them when I've made two posts now arguing against it. And what the hell is up with the deliberate intention of moving votes off FC's wagon? That right there pisses me off. You can twist around what I was doing to make it sound like that, but all I did was vote Nadroj when he made an incredibly scummy post.

I don't know why you don't just say I've been accused of defending, I don't think I have. The timing of my vote on nadroj looks bad, that's true, but judge the case on it's merits etc etc. Instead you go off the rails and start warning me not to start on you defending FC and rail on about how it was just a coincidence and even though when you started voting him it was for scummy bandwagoning now his entire post history is scummy.

So now you're going to attack the wording of my post. Sorry I didn't say exactly what you would've said, I guess I'm scum? The warning thing was just me getting tired of everyone saying I'd been defending FC. Not sure what you mean about the coincidence. I already explained my reasons for voting nadroj, and you have yet to tell me what is wrong with them.

I know you're one for overreactions (no offense Razz) but I'm not feeling the townie love this time. Plus accusing me of not reading the thread properly (zz you've played with me twice now) and tunneling (because dank with that last post after a whole game of decent scumhunting should be as suspicious as Far Cry with his continual scummy behaviour? Sorry, what??) is just not helpful or convincing.

I accused you of not reading the thread properly because you told me the biggest event of the game, the mason claim, was at a different time than it actually was. It was only a semi serious remark anyways. And you completely misunderstand about dank. You accuse me of derailing the FC case when obviously dank had much more to do with that than me, yet you only attack me. Maybe tunnel visioned is the wrong term, but the point still stands.

[Hero764]

It's definitely possible Hero wanted to vote Nadroj because he thought he was scummy. But the timing of it is extremely suspicious to me, isn't it to you? And usually people at page 15 have more than the very latest post to go on to vote someone scummy. All the stuff about his other bandwagoning or whatever is retreo-active - Hero cited that as a reason after his vote. So you have to decide whether that one post was enough to get Hero to vote him, or whether Hero is continuing his pattern of defending FC - I just happen to think it's the latter.

Uhm, it was enough reason for a vote, hence my vote. The pattern thing only works if you can prove I was defending FC earlier(for illegitimate reasons, of course), and I don't see how voting Nadroj counts as defending FC. The only defending I've done of him is telling people to read his other games, and not just assume that because he exhibits scummy behavior that he is scum. What's wrong with that?

I wasn't attacking your wording, I was attacking the fact that you seemed to be dismissing issues about how scummy the timing of your vote + your defending has been rather than acknowledging you could understand how we'd come ot that conclusion and disagreeing. If I'm town and caught in a difficult coincidence, I'd just say meh, I can understand how you all think that, but this is why it's untrue (see Lumberjack Mafia start of D3) as opposed to your reaction, which was really argumentative and dismissive. It could just be a playstyle thing though.

So you think I'm scummy because I didn't explicitly state that your case had merit and that I saw where it was coming from(not trying to strawman, just curious). If so, what's scummy about that, because I don't see it.

I did misunderstand about dank, but I still disagree. Dank didn't have a well-established history of defending FC, you did, Dank didn't act first, you did.

...what.

What does a history of defending FC have to do with anything? Acting first? So what. Dank was more responsible for derailing the case, so attacking me for doing that you would almost certaintly have to attack dank as well. Its how it works. You can't just disagree.

[Hero764]

Actually serial, I just remembered you can probably relate to this(even though you replaced in after the event).

Remember our newbie game with CJMiller? He acted just as bad, if not worse than Far_Cry, and ended up getting lynched for it. He flipped townie. It wasn't that his posts were scummy, his playstyle was just terrible. Far_Cry is in the same boat.

[Hero764]

The pattern thing works if you have a pattern of defending FC which I certainly believe you do.

You have interpreted his words very kindly

, dismissed criticism of him acting scummy as something he always does,

dismissed my point about FC laying out how he would act as scum specifically matching up with his current actions as him 'bullshitting'.

So your vote fits that pattern, yes.

bold - Point it out please.

italic - Who the hell who be so retarded as to basically admit to being scum(other than for joke reasons)?

A history of defending FC means your dismantling of the FC wagon is much more significant than his. Your acting first means you were in a more significant position to affect the wagon (note Dank was voting FOR FC before your post.

You're really stubborn to admit dank was just as 'wrong' as me. Any reason for this?

You still neglect to address what was significant about my history made it significant, and neglect that fact that dank had much more to do with it. And what does who dank was voting for have to do with anything? He found nadroj scummy for the same reason as me and voted. If you're going to call dismantling the wagon scummy, then dank is scummy in your eyes, simple as. Also, if you're going to say that dank made his vote because of my post then you really are grasping at straws.

Still would like an answer on why we shouldn't lynch FC given he's (to me) the scummiest player in the game and his flip would essentially clear two townies or

nail two (more) scum.

Besides FC's meta, which makes nadroj much scummier, the bolded worries me.

[Hero764]

Hero - I understand that there's the VI principle in players like CJmiller, but CJ miller was actively not paying attention to the game and was more of a newbie than FC is. He also didn't post his own meta of what to do as scum without reaslising it applied directly to his current game, and he also didn't get defended by one person really prominently.

Yeah because I didn't know if CJMiller was just an idiot in general or if he was just acting incredibly scummy. I know FC is just an idiot in general, and there's no reason to lynch him just based on his playstyle.

What would you do if FC was still alive at lylo? Just because he's a bad player doesn't mean he can't be scum, and there are plenty of reasons beyond general wishy washy scumtells to think he's scum this game.

WOW

WHEN DID I SAY HE COULDN'T BE SCUM PLEASE POINT IT OUT

I'm not trying to be mad at you, but you keep doing this misrepping =/. And if there are plently of reasons could you possibly list them? It might convince me to vote for him.

[Hero764]

Goddammit Hero, take a deep breath ><

Sorry It just gets frustrating when you

still

misunderstand me after all of this.

Hero argument: He acts like an idiot all the time, I don't think he's scum
SC's argument: Just because he's acting like an idiot doesn't mean he's not scum this time.

That isn't what it sounded like you said.

He's not an idiot for telling us he's scum, it's a slip. His point about the meta was made in relation to a completely different matter. He didn't realise that in telling us his idea of optimal scum play he was specifically describing his own play so far. Luckily for us, he did and we can analyse his play in that context rather than in a meta context and see he is playing exactly how he thinks scum should play.

I personally just don't see that as a slip. I know you might, but I just don't. I can't explain it any more than I already have.

Your kind inrepretation is in 73, 79, 86, 102, 108, 131, 244. This is what I mean when I use those words. You don't have to go over how legit you think they are, I know you don't agree you were interpretting him kindly, but I think you did.

First three - maybe. I admit it was a newb moment of mine, not realizing the consequences of answering for someone. The last ones though, I'd like you to explain how I was interpreting his statements, kindly or not.

Your kind interpretations of him and defending of him make you specifically derailing his wagon more significant because it completes a pattern. You seem to do whatever you can to draw suspicion away from FC. It was so significant, kiku thought you must be masons with him to justify just how much you don't want him lynched. I can't answer that question any more thoroughly.

Again, dank was responsible for derailing the wagon, not me. And kiku was simply wrong, I don't see how what she thinks should dictate how significant it is. If I was so concerned with drawing suspicion from FC, why have I attacked him numerous times in this thread?

[Hero764]

No. You don't know that. You are masons with Mokina, remember?

What does me being a mason have to do with anything?

Why would the bolded worry you if you are not scum? Also, why would the bolded worry you one bit if you think FC is town? i.e. if he flips town, SC has said that would most likely clear you, if he flips scum then town would have lynched scum on day 1. What's the part that "worries" you? That you will be under scrutiny tomorrow if town nails scum day 1. Seems like a worthwhile trade off to me. Not wanting to lynch scum to keep yourself out of the limelight is something scum does. Please explain this.

I'm not completely against the lynch because of that, but obviously if it could potentially lead to my lynch(as a mason) it would worry me. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

I remember this game. Town won. FC isn't exactly in the same boat imo. This is a different game. Its day 1. Let's lynch FC and move on. His flip will only help us.

It doesn't matter who won. We made a mistake based on someone's playstyle and lynched a townie for it. I never once said lynching FC would guarantee a townie lynch or that we would end up losing the game because of him. nadroj is just the better lynch candidate.

[Hero764]

You really think its worth risking the loss of our doctor? I don't fully believe him either, but there's no reason we shouldn't go after someone else today.

[Hero764]

Anyone can have a chance of being the doctor, it comes with the territory. I don't feel, personally, that FC's claim increases that chance at all.

Of course it does.

There's probably 3 scum, 9 town like in most games. So there's a 9/12 chance FC is town. If he's town then he would have no reason to lie about it, so 9/12 chance of being doctor as opposed to 1/12 from before(ok 9/12 isn't exact due to how you view his behavior, but it definitely increases the chance).

[Hero764]

No, it makes it 1/4 he's doc and 3/4 he's scum. Pure probability is a bad indicator for mafia, but if you want the raw stats, he's three times as likely to be scum at this point.

Well whatever you think the chance of him being town is, that's the chance that he's the doctor. He's 9 times more likely to be doctor due to the claim.

[Hero764]

What are the advantages of lynching a claimed doc as opposed to someone else, who in most's eyes is about as scummy?

[Hero764]

What are the advantages of lynching a claimed doc as opposed to someone else, who in most's eyes is about as scummy?

Well?

[Hero764]

What does that have to do with anything? FC looks like he's jumped ship anyways.

[Hero764]

@Hero764: Just to get the answer in black and white: Does your role PM say that you know Mokina is pro-town?

Yes.

[Hero764]

Seconded on the dislike of replacements, especially when they are seemingly as useless as the ones they replaced. Is FC lynched? I thought qwints was the hammer?

7 to lynch, not 6.

[Hero764]

I'll hammer FC if necessary. Although I really do not think we should be lynching an uncounterclaimed doc based on a poor playstyle in general.

We should lynch Gwynplaine because his former self active lurked and was always going with the flow, even making it blatantly at one point(at which I voted him). He doesn't have many posts, so it shouldn't take long to read nadroj in iso and get an idea for yourself.

[Hero764]

Can we get some more opinions on the game from those not voting FC? Gwyn posted a case on me, Nikanor has posted one on Lowell and dank has had RL issues, but Hero, i think you've been pretty quiet (although I noticed your post war with Mastin in Jungle mafia when doing meta reads.. hahah sucks to be you Very Happy) and Lowell, something a bit more substantive than what you've posted would be aweosme. Also, are you deadset against lynching FC or neutral towards it or what?

I made a post earlier about this, but now I don't think we should be lynching gwyn so soon. He's been fairly pro-town so far, so

unvote

.

It looks like FC is going to be the lynch, unless ThAdmiral says something amazing. I want to wait for ThAdmiral to post his thoughts, unless it gets to sunday and he still hasn't, in which case I'll hammer.

[Hero764]

I'd rather lynch Lowell than the un cc'd doc.

vote: Lowell

Let's see if this wagon'll get support.

[Hero764]

You realize trying to build a bandwagon for the sole reason of not lynching someone else is about as scummy as lynching the confirmed doc, right? What happened to scumhunting, hero?

That's not the only reason I'm voting for him, silly. Do I need to list the reasons others have brought up?

In particular I think Nikanor's case in post 547 makes a great point. Combine that with his active lurking, some very scummy posts(ie. the one in which he votes me) he's also scummy for earlier voting FC on the premise that he lied(which I'm not going to argue about right now). He's been acting scummy all day, and if there's support for his lynch then hell, why not?

[Hero764]

Every night he survives, he confirms another player as town.

That's only if he's telling the truth.

[Hero764]

If he's lying scum, he still has to

pretend

to confirm someone as town. That will give us plenty of information, one way or another. So the claim severely limits his options if he's scum (unlike the doc claim), and makes him extremely useful to us if he's town (unlike the doc claim).

I'm not saying we shouldn't lynch Lowell ever, I'm saying his claim makes it really dumb to lynch him today.

Those are some good points.

unvote

ThAdmiral: POST SOMETHING

[Hero764]

FC is more scummy

Disagree with that. He was just an idiot. Like Gwyn said, I wouldn't put it past him to lie about being doc even if, say, he was vanilla townie.

However it really isn't in our best interest to lynch a claimed hider, and ThAdmiral is a much better lynch than no lynch so

vote: ThAdmiral

We got like 12 hours and both lynch candidates are at L-2.

[Hero764]

Haha, good job town. Lost 4 power roles by day 2.

[/bah post]