Mini 811: Foggy Londontown Mafia - Over!

[Tenchi]

This is the the same sentiments I have with the mason claim, only you worded it better.

The masons are interesting - I find it unbelieveable how much Hero has been defending Far Cry. We are lucky in that we have the chance to lynch FC first, because I suspect that will shed a good deal of light on Hero's alignment. For those that missed it earlier, Hero's most important effort in protecting Far Cry came on post 298 where he derails the wagon entirely by voting for nadroj, one of the many relatively useless active lurkers in the game. All momentum on the FC wagon dies and the town start reassessing again. Why not vote FC if you wanted to vote a scummy active lurker? Why not vote Wiirdo? Why wait until exactly that moment? Because it fits a consistent pattern of defending FC every chance you get. I find it highly dicey.

Other things I don't like about the masons - Monika's breadcrumb is very specific, but it's so late! Anyone could breadcrumb at 186, especially after the word 'mason' had been bandied about for pages and pages. To me, the entire point of a breadcrumb is that it has to be early and specific. If I am L-2, quickly write my role down the side of the page then claim in the next post, noone would believe my crumb and rightly so.

Wow. I don't want to make this into a math game. Probabilities suck, becuase a person maybe buy a lottery ticket and win, despite the fact his chances were 1 in 500,000, despite the fact that 499,999 people lost, he still won. This shouldn't be about probabilities. We simply have to play the game and logically figure out everything, not use math.

You say this Far_Cry but your behavior all game, your "suspicions", do not reflect what you deem to believe here.

I think your Doc claim is crap. And I am worried that the nadroj secondary wagon was a clever distraction from your lynch.

VOTE: Far_Cry

Vote Count Twelve

Far_Cry: 4 (Tenchi, Mokina, nadroj15, SerialClergyman)
nadroj15: 4 (Lowell, qwints, Hero 764, Far_Cry)
qwints: 1 (iamausername)

Not Voting: 3 (dank, kikchiyo, Nikanor)

With 12 alive it's 7 to lynch.

Current deadline: Saturday, July 18th 8:10 AM EST

[dank]

Meh, I still feel very badly about lynching a claimed doc, especially since we all seem to be against counterclaims, if there is one.

[SerialClergyman]

unvote Far_Cry

I am going to join the worrying number of people who hopped on the bandwagon and then hopped off quickly without wanting to lynch a claimed doc. I feel like there's a few people doing the work in this game and a lot of people hanging on for the ride.

I don't think the doc should claim, I'm sure we can deal with FC without losing a role if we need to.

I still think FC is scum. No breadcrumbs, he still hasn't actually defended himself, he's just come up with a claim that works. He hasn't explained himself, talked about his thought process or built any sort of decent case. In short - the claim looks transparently false.

Not to mention the i am total shit in your eyes and what if I'm a jester posts ><.

Also - there's only 12 people, and we apparantly have masons and a doc already.

But having said all that, I don't think there's much reason to risk it.

Mind you - unless I get some legitimate talk from him I think it's unreasonable to just drop it here. Far_Cry - you need to answer the question better than:

About wat u said last, wat SC said was true, but I don't rly have anyone to openly push a lynch on, yet.

Either have a better answer or START CONTRIBUTING.

Out of the fallout - I give townie points to Monika. People who step up and vote who is scummy deserve credit. Hero, on the other hand, seems very worried about his own hide. Either they're both scum and Monika is better at it (no offence ) or they're both town and Hero needs to realise that his death isn't the end of the world, and if FC was lynched and flipped scum that's definitely a good result, regardless of the suspicion that puts on himself.

I've also rated iamusername's posts, despite disagreeing with me on almost everything. He's posting considered responses and avoided the easy bandwagon. Good man.

I do not like dank's recent postings.

iso post 34 votes FC
iso post 35 votes nadroj
iso post 40 votes FC
iso post 44 unvotes
iso post 48 FoS's Mokina

Talk about going with the flow . It's really easy to throw your vote on the lurkers that other people are pointing out as scummy and attacking someone who is prepared to lynch the claimed doc.

FoS dank.

I guess nadroj becomes the play of the day then, until he fakeclaims something as well.

vote nadroj

I'm going to do a re-read of dank and nadroj when I get a bit of time and try and convince myself either of them is a better case than FC. I will also curse easy fakeclaims with zero additional work, scumhunting or effort to an uncaring world.

[dank]

I do not like dank's recent postings.

iso post 34 votes FC
iso post 35 votes nadroj
iso post 40 votes FC
iso post 44 unvotes
iso post 48 FoS's Mokina

Talk about going with the flow . It's really easy to throw your vote on the lurkers that other people are pointing out as scummy and attacking someone who is prepared to lynch the claimed doc.

FoS dank.

erm, what?

post 34- I log on to see FC's newest post and vote him. Am I not allowed to vote someone who made an ugly post if someone before me does it first?

post 35- ditto. nad made his third ugly bandwagon vote. I see it 10 minutes later, I vote him, and include the other cases in the past few pages, a point that hero did not even make (my post is largely the case everyone now follows on nad).

post 40- Explained this vote several times already.

post 44- I unvoted on a doc claim, I must be following the crowd!

post 48- Who else even suggested that what Mokina was saying was anti-town? I believe I was the only one arguing this. Are you seriously calling this "going with the flow"?

Your accusations don't make sense. Following the crowd? A large part of the cases against nad and FC are my own contributions. I was the only one to question the Mason trying to lynch a claimed doc.

You're trying to simplify and misrepresent my last few posts a great deal. I don't know if this is purposeful, or you just didn't get that in depth of a readthrough, but it's a bit suspicious.

[dank]

I still think FC is scum. No breadcrumbs, he still hasn't actually defended himself, he's just come up with a claim that works. He hasn't explained himself, talked about his thought process or built any sort of decent case. In short - the claim looks transparently false.

Do you honestly expect a player of FC's... calibur to lay breadcrumbs or explain his thought process? He's reckless, he's a liability, he's hard to figure out, he's both antitown and scummy, but if he happens to be the doctor, of which there's a good chance of, lynching him would be a very stupid move.

The only reason not to lynch FC would be if he holds a power role, and until I see a counterclaim, I find it very likely.

Will reread tomorrow and hopefully come up with an updated case on nad/anyone else I find suspicious.

[SerialClergyman]

dank - you were more than welcome to vote FC.

then you switched when someone else voted nadroj. Well, that's okish, but a bit dicey. I find it very hard to switch my vote that quickly without a really convincing reason (claim or counter-claim, cop result etc etc)

Then you go back to FC a few posts later after someone else does some work in reviewing the players and trying to hunt scum.

Post 44 you unvote without looking anywhere else or doing much of anything, just unvote because you feel you have to. Remember - your reasons for switching votes between nadroj and FC so much was that you found them equally scummy. So where's the vote on nadroj?

So up until this point you have contributed very little to the game in this last little exchange. You've been apparantly deciding between two people, but you don't seem to care who you vote. Every time you switch you do it on the back of other people doing the work in finding them, and now when you unvote after a claim you don't go back to someone you found equally as scummy. It's very, very safe play.

Even your reasoning for being on FC's bandwagon always seems to be nice 'excuse' reasons for tomorrow. Things like 'he's anti-town and unuseful' rather than 'he's scummy'.

In fact, re-reading closely, you say that you're 'fine with a nad lynch' but you wanted to bring Mokina to the town's attention first. But you didn't know how Mokina was going ot react when you unvoted. So when you unvoted, why not vote nad straight away?

Then, your attack on Mokina looks like a poor move to me. For one - it's ill-considered. Mokina has claimed mason with Hero, so if you're attacking her, you have to realise that the attack should be related back to Hero. Otherwise you're just chucking out an FoS with no intent behind it, which may earn you points but isn't useful. Secondly, her position is obvtown. People who are prepared to lynch someone who looks dead scummy after a l-1 claim are showing that they have a serious intent to scumhunt. She's using her mason position, if she is town, well, because she's taking a strong stance with it from an easily confirmable place. You are the one asking for the real doc to out himself in order to lynch FC, scummiest of the scum - that's far more dicey to my mind.

However - from a general position, you're still playing it safe. Because you're probably going ot go right back to the 'I was just trying ot protect the town from making a mistake' line.

To me - I think townies should be pushing, hunting, attacking, because if they get it wrong or look scummy in the process they can be mislynched and it's no big deal - they're expendable. What I really don't like about what I've outlied above is the

safe

ness of it all, the lack of pushing from you.

It's not enough to earn my vote, but it's enough to earn my suspicion.

Finally - I expect anyone in a non-newbie game to do a hell of a lot more than FC. If I look at his play, I see scum, not doctor. I say right now he won't flip doctor.

Look forward to your cases tomorrow.

[SerialClergyman]

Oh - also, doc is easily the best scum fakeclaim. It's got as much chance of being countered as any other common role, but if you are counterclaimed by a cop, then the doc

remains hidden

, so the cop isn't going to be immediately NKed.

The only common role where once he claims he's dead? Doc. Thus making it perfect for a scum fakeclaim to nab a power role before they get killed.

So this idea of doc being a hard role to fakeclaim as scum is nonsense.

[iamausername]

Lynching and uncounterclaimed doc is about as dumb as, well, lynching masons solely to confirm them.

No, because scum claim doc all the time, whereas they pretty much never claim masons.

I still think FC is scum. No breadcrumbs, he still hasn't actually defended himself, he's just come up with a claim that works. He hasn't explained himself, talked about his thought process or built any sort of decent case. In short - the claim looks transparently false.

So why unvote?

I guess nadroj becomes the play of the day then, until he fakeclaims something as well.

And then we pick someone else, and run them up to a claim, and just keep on doing that until we find a vanilla townie? Is that the plan?

Mokina has claimed mason with Hero, so if you're attacking her, you have to realise that the attack should be related back to Hero.

Funny, I don't remember you acknowledging the reverse when you were attacking Hero earlier.

Oh - also, doc is easily the best scum fakeclaim. It's got as much chance of being countered as any other common role, but if you are counterclaimed by a cop, then the doc remains hidden, so the cop isn't going to be immediately NKed.

The only common role where once he claims he's dead? Doc. Thus making it perfect for a scum fakeclaim to nab a power role before they get killed.

So this idea of doc being a hard role to fakeclaim as scum is nonsense.

Exactly.

---

Unvote, Vote: Far_Cry

I am very much in favour of lynching doc claims in closed setups. Docs are overrated anyway.

(P.S. assuming a scum flip on FC, dank has totally outed himself as a partner here)

[Tenchi]

Oh - also, doc is easily the best scum fakeclaim. It's got as much chance of being countered as any other common role, but if you are counterclaimed by a cop, then the doc

remains hidden

, so the cop isn't going to be immediately NKed.

The only common role where once he claims he's dead? Doc. Thus making it perfect for a scum fakeclaim to nab a power role before they get killed.

So this idea of doc being a hard role to fakeclaim as scum is nonsense.

^ Please listen to that guy.

I think this is a plot to lure out roles before he dies. Barring the claim, what Far_Cry has done nothing to address my concerns over him.

[Hero764]

What are the advantages of lynching a claimed doc as opposed to someone else, who in most's eyes is about as scummy?

[SerialClergyman]

Ok, bring it on. I agree that going from one person to the next and lynching the first non-PR is a dodgy plan. I thought that momentum for an FC lynch was dead in the water but if we've got some people prepared to fire up, lets get this done!

unvote, vote Far_Cry

Plus, Tenchi told me to listen to thisguy, and the quote he gave was pure distilled awesome.

iamusername - I did consider the mason claim with my theory before - I've always said that my suspicion was the three of them were together. You've regularly said what you think of that idea, and I agree it's simplistic, but simplistic doesn't mean impossible - ruling it out because of scum motivations leads to WIFOMic reasoning - if they are a group of three they have every reason to push hard to keep all three alive.

Since then, Mokina's posts have gone a long way to derailing that theory, however.

I'm not sure that dank has 'totally outed himself as a partner'. Don't get me wrong, I'm suspicious of him and his recent behaviour, but I think putting him up as a definite partner is probably over the top. Why are you so sure?

[DraketheFake]

Vote Count Twelve-Point-Five

Far_Cry:

5 (SerialClergyman, iamausername, Tenchi, Mokina, nadroj15)

nadroj15:

4 (Lowell, qwints, Hero 764, Far_Cry)

Not Voting:

3 (dank, kikchiyo, Nikanor)

With 12 alive it's 7 to lynch.

Current deadline:

Saturday, July 18th 8:10 AM EST

nadroj15

will be replaced as soon as I find somebody.

Prodding

Nikanor.

[Far_Cry]

Back to L-1, for what, the third time in 2 pages? This is crazy.

What are the advantages of lynching a claimed doc as opposed to someone else, who in most's eyes is about as scummy?

This is wat I'm not understanding. Suppose I actually do flip doctor (which I will, when I die.) How will u feel, and wat would u do?

[Far_Cry]

No, wait. I guess I'm not at L-1.

Mod: I have 5 votes not 4.

Whatchoo talking 'bout?

- Mod

[Far_Cry]

No, wait. I guess I'm not at L-1.

Mod: I have 5 votes not 4.

Whatchoo talking 'bout?

- Mod

Oh hehehe. U jus had 4 before.

Mod, I'm going to a camp for a week, and I'm not sure if I will have computer access. Replace me if needed (if I don't show up.)

[dank]

sigh, why are you still representing my posts?

then you switched when someone else voted nadroj. Well, that's okish, but a bit dicey. I find it very hard to switch my vote that quickly without a really convincing reason (claim or counter-claim, cop result etc etc)

Yes, I pointed out his 3 bandwagon votes, the third being 10 minutes before I posted, that is the central point, coupled with lurking, that makes nad scummy. How is that not a convincing reason?

Then you go back to FC a few posts later after someone else does some work in reviewing the players and trying to hunt scum.

Are you saying I haven't done scumhuting against FC? If so, you've got alot of rereading to do. Like I said, his meta held me back, but in this particular game, his lynch would have been very helpful to town for the reasons I outlined.

Post 44 you unvote without looking anywhere else or doing much of anything, just unvote because you feel you have to. Remember - your reasons for switching votes between nadroj and FC so much was that you found them equally scummy. So where's the vote on nadroj?

This is ridiculous, I unvote because we have a

claimed doctor

, and you're finding it suspicious.

Even your reasoning for being on FC's bandwagon always seems to be nice 'excuse' reasons for tomorrow. Things like 'he's anti-town and unuseful' rather than 'he's scummy'.

Am I wrong? I've been saying his actions are scummy since the very early goings, its well known that he's been scummy. IN ADDITON to that, he is pretty much useless to town, which i'm sure many of you will agree with, and his flip would have given us plenty of info, including possible some hints about the masons, or bandwagon analysis for who jumped on the easy target.

In fact, re-reading closely, you say that you're 'fine with a nad lynch' but you wanted to bring Mokina to the town's attention first. But you didn't know how Mokina was going ot react when you unvoted. So when you unvoted, why not vote nad straight away?

Because I want to give it another look before I place the vote, which'll be later today.

Also, how is my play right now "safe" when i'm pretty much going against the rest of the town?

Its odd, some of you have said things like iamausername: "I am very much in favour of lynching doc claims in closed setups. Docs are overrated anyway.", yet you're still against counterclaiming, which gives us possibly CONFIRMED scum?

qwints posted this a while ago:

*I agree we should not lynch FC today - that's why I unvoted.
*I don't think losing a doc for a scum is a good trade off for a town.
*I do think that scum would be very willing to trade a L-1 scum for a doc.
*I think town is much more likely to believe an unforced claim than a forced one.

To further elaborate on why the doc shouldn't counter-claim today:

1. Nk'ing the doc randomly --> FC lynch
2. A policy of not counter-claiming puts pressure on the scum if FC is the doc.
3. Doc can counter the day before presumed LYLO with no real loss.
4. FC could be outed in an alternative way that doesn't cost us a PR.

Which I can understand. We can probably go about this without counterclaiming. But to lynch a confirmed doc and to be against a counterclaim just sounds ridiculous to me.

But whatever, go for it. If he flips scum, then we're lucky (and apparently i'm his partner). If he flips town, i'm sure there's at least one scum that jumped on the bandwagon to get a doctor lynched, so there will be some analysis there.

I'll vote once I do a reread later today.

[dank]

Also, SC, if you want to lynch FC and think he's scum, as you said in the post where you unvote him, why did you vote nadroj when the momentum was shifting to him?

Also, why did you shift back to FC after a few more votes were placed in that direction? Talk about going with the flow.

[SerialClergyman]

It's 3:30am and I've got to go to bed, but I just read your posts so I thought I'd respond so you could have a chance to have another go while I slept.

I'm also a little drunk

sigh, why are you still representing my posts?

Sorry, should I be

mis

representing them? rofl I'm a captioner so typos are a way of life but I like this. Freudian slip methinks.

Most of what you say is just opinion stuff. I think some of your posts have been very safe. You've got that sort of holier than thou expression - however could we lynch the claimed doc. Zzz. We can lynch him because he's scummy as all hell and it's a common fakeclaim. Plus, the logical extension of your argument means we'll never lynch scum cos they'll just fakeclaim something. Anyway, you disagree, I would expect you to but meh.

I think the only area we have content issues is in the unvoting and revoting stuff. You rightly pointed out that I switched from FC and went back - but there's a big difference in yours and mine. You switched from VIABLE wagons which had MOMENTUM. I switched because it looked like the FC wagon was dead and I was trying to keep up the hunting. That's a massive difference. Also, I've made no secret which lynch I'd prefer, it can't be surprising to you that if there's a viable wagon on FC I'll be on it.

Additionally - the point about you not voting nadroj is more significant than you're making it out to be. You are supposedly a person struggling between two scummy alternatives, not knowing which one is worse, teetering between the two. But when you unvote FC after the claim, you don't vote nadroj? I just don't get that from a genuine, scumhunting townie. Where did all the suspicion, that you had just a day or two ago, go? You say you're going to re-read but why? Has nadroj done anything recently to make you doubt the case you had on him before?

Post 44 you unvote without looking anywhere else or doing much of anything, just unvote because you feel you have to. Remember - your reasons for switching votes between nadroj and FC so much was that you found them equally scummy. So where's the vote on nadroj?

This is ridiculous, I unvote because we have a

claimed doctor

, and you're finding it suspicious.

This gets at the heart of what I'm talking about. You're hiding behind the self-righteous argument about possibly protecting claimed doctors which doesn't even address the question about why not move your hunting onto the guy you thought was roughly equally scummy. Unvoting isn't the scummy part - unvoting without following up your other suspicions is suspect to me.

But go ahead with your re-read, and post your cases, both of which you didn't mention a peep about before I pointed out your recent bout of safe posts, and we'll go from there.

Bugger, it's 4am now

BEDTIME CALLS!

[dank]

couple notes:

I think the only area we have content issues is in the unvoting and revoting stuff. You rightly pointed out that I switched from FC and went back - but there's a big difference in yours and mine. You switched from VIABLE wagons which had MOMENTUM. I switched because it looked like the FC wagon was dead and I was trying to keep up the hunting. That's a massive difference. Also, I've made no secret which lynch I'd prefer, it can't be surprising to you that if there's a viable wagon on FC I'll be on it.

The thing I don't get is, if you want to lynch FC, why did you give up on it? As you say, a "genuine scumhunting townie" wouldn't give up because everyone else was losing faith in a case. He'd push for it and try to convince the others its the right choice. In case, you jump on the building nad wagon, and then jump back once iamausername and others do the convincing for you. That's far more opportunistic than anything I did.

Additionally - the point about you not voting nadroj is more significant than you're making it out to be. You are supposedly a person struggling between two scummy alternatives, not knowing which one is worse, teetering between the two. But when you unvote FC after the claim, you don't vote nadroj? I just don't get that from a genuine, scumhunting townie. Where did all the suspicion, that you had just a day or two ago, go? You say you're going to re-read but why? Has nadroj done anything recently to make you doubt the case you had on him before?

Alright, I unvoted after a doc claim and didn't vote for someone else.

Unvote

Any breadcrumbs from you?

B.S.

but

unvote

for now.

unvote

. I think the claim is probably not true, but we'll know soon enough.

Vote Count Eleven

Far_Cry: 2 (nadroj15, SerialClergyman)
nadroj15: 2 (Hero 764, Far_Cry)
qwints: 1 (iamausername)

Not Voting: 7 (dank, kikchiyo, Lowell, Mokina, Nikanor, qwints, Tenchi)

With 12 alive it's 7 to lynch.

Current deadline: Saturday, July 18th 8:10 AM EST

You don't find them suspicious for doing the same thing? Lowell had been pushing for a nad case more than I had lately. kik also was ok with his lynch, as I believe qwints was. You don't find them suspicious for voting nad right away too?

[Mokina]

Then, your attack on Mokina looks like a poor move to me. For one - it's ill-considered. Mokina has claimed mason with Hero, so if you're attacking her, you have to realise that the attack should be related back to Hero. Otherwise you're just chucking out an FoS with no intent behind it, which may earn you points but isn't useful. Secondly, her position is obvtown. People who are prepared to lynch someone who looks dead scummy after a l-1 claim are showing that they have a serious intent to scumhunt. She's using her mason position, if she is town, well, because she's taking a strong stance with it from an easily confirmable place. You are the one asking for the real doc to out himself in order to lynch FC, scummiest of the scum - that's far more dicey to my mind.

This gets at the heart of what I'm talking about. You're hiding behind the self-righteous argument about possibly protecting claimed doctors which doesn't even address the question about why not move your hunting onto the guy you thought was roughly equally scummy. Unvoting isn't the scummy part - unvoting without following up your other suspicions is suspect to me.

Thank you. My sentiments exactly in both posts.

Are you saying I haven't done scumhuting against FC? If so, you've got alot of rereading to do. Like I said, his meta held me back, but in this particular game, his lynch would have been very helpful to town for the reasons I outlined.

You don't find them suspicious for doing the same thing? Lowell had been pushing for a nad case more than I had lately. kik also was ok with his lynch, as I believe qwints was. You don't find them suspicious for voting nad right away too?

You built a list of reasons why his lynch would be helpful, sure - but it has become abundantly clear you do not wish to follow through on them. Several other people wanted to be cautious and wait on the wagon, and I don't blame them for doing so. But comparing them to your active defense of Far_Cry and push for a highly antitown counterclaim is ridiculous. I read distancing, unwillingness to throw him under a bus, and an attempt to get a real doc to claim. You look like a partner cutting losses.

If you are town and believe FC's actions to be scummy, vote. It will confuse me less.

[dank]

Maybe that is what I look like, but i'm not going to vote for a claimed doctor. I just don't understand why everyone abandons the chance that he IS our doctor. If the doctor is as valuable as you all say, where you under no circumstance want the real one to counter, what if you happen to lynch our doctor? Does not that bother you the slightest bit?

Like I said, I have no problem voting for FC prior to the claim. But lynching a power role is about the stupidest thing town can do, and I honestly have to believe FC's claim unless there's a counter. I can't stop you guys from doing it, but i'd much rather we lynch someone else today.

[Hero764]

What are the advantages of lynching a claimed doc as opposed to someone else, who in most's eyes is about as scummy?

Well?

[Mokina]

Hey claimed doc, does your role PM say if you can protect yourself? Shhh ... no hints.

Well?

[Hero764]

What does that have to do with anything? FC looks like he's jumped ship anyways.

[Mokina]

More to the point, he sidestepped my question. Don't worry about it.